Custom Bats Cricket Forum

Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Johnny on July 16, 2011, 04:47:40 PM

Title: Laminates
Post by: Johnny on July 16, 2011, 04:47:40 PM
We all know they are illegal. In people's eyes who is worse; the players who use the bats or the batmakers who make them?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: tommo256 on July 16, 2011, 04:58:54 PM
Batmaker: it's like drugs are illegal but people still use them, who's in the wrong user or dealer/grower?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: jonwilson on July 16, 2011, 05:08:39 PM
Who is worse?  perhaps the MCC for stifling innovation. 
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 16, 2011, 05:18:59 PM
Batmaker: it's like drugs are illegal but people still use them, who's in the wrong user or dealer/grower?

Prescription drugs are legal but easily obtained via many outlets.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: petehosk on July 16, 2011, 05:35:01 PM
Do you think we will have the same conversation about carbo handles in the future?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 16, 2011, 05:45:12 PM
right thats it i wanna laminate with a carbo handle, who can fix me up?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Johnny on July 16, 2011, 05:49:55 PM
carbo handles aren't illegal are they?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 16, 2011, 05:54:55 PM
i think so
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on July 16, 2011, 06:19:06 PM
carbo handles aren't illegal are they?

I think it's dependant on the amount of carbon in the handle, can't be any more than about 15% I think, it's something like that anyway..... :)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: petehosk on July 16, 2011, 06:28:40 PM
And if you have a carbo handle containing more than that, then you are obviously a cheat!!  ;)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Johnny on July 16, 2011, 06:28:47 PM
i thought it only applied to professional cricket
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 16, 2011, 06:42:23 PM
i thought it only applied to professional cricket
Correct. Any bats with full carbon handles can continue to be used in none professional games. New bats cannot be manufactured with more than 15% other materials than cane.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 16, 2011, 06:44:16 PM
And for the record, the blame lies at the door of the players and the batmakers. Both know they're illegal.

I'd like to see the MCC along with the ICC getting tough and reverse any ICC approval for bat brands who are producing illegal bats. Perhaps with a warning initially.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: petehosk on July 16, 2011, 06:51:08 PM
So Tom - if a new sponsored player was using a laminate of a brand, then should the player be banned, or should the brand that sponsors the player be banned? (hyperthetically of course)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 16, 2011, 06:53:06 PM
Both should be banned, once an inquiry has been carried out. The player from matches. The brand from having it's logo displayed on equipment used in the professional game.

And I'll admit, I'm no shining light. I've unintentionally commissioned illegal bats to be made and seen them used in professional matches. Hence why I'd suggest a warning system, there are lots of laws some of which are confusingly worded (the MCC have to take a small part of the blame for this!). But I'd never knowingly produce an illegal bat or knowingly allow a player to use an illegal bat under my brand.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Johnny on July 16, 2011, 07:02:15 PM
I think i'm with you Tom. Both parties ought to be punished. Would love to see the authorities crack down on it. Maybe we could form a CBF vigilante bat squad!
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Johnny on July 16, 2011, 07:04:54 PM
i think a part of the solution has to be getting rid of the supply. Folk on here go crazy for the TK Lams and will seemingly pay good money. Ultimately it shouldnt be allowed
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Black Cat Cricket on July 16, 2011, 07:33:41 PM
Hard for the MCC to do any more, other than enforce it at a professional level. They are banned in any game played under MCC laws. We've all played in Pub games with 8 ball overs, no LBW etc. etc. These games aren't played under MCC laws, and the batmakers will just say the bats are made for use in such games. The MCC cannot ban someone for making a cricket bat full stop, it can only outlaw it in any game of cricket it governs.

It is rather like seatbelts, it is the law to wear one (and make cars with them) intended for use on the public road (where the government has authority); however they cannot make you wear a seatbelt if you're driving on a private race track.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: PM7 on July 16, 2011, 07:39:44 PM
Its all well and good us debating on the forum the legalities of laminated bats but I cant see them vanishing
Id imagine that there is at least one batsman in every international match using a laminated bat.
Didnt Ponting use one during the Ashes? Some of the Indian batsmen are using spectacularly large bats but that doesnt imply they are Lams. I saw just last week a Malik bat used by Sohail Tanveer that was a blatant Lam.
As long as there is a demand then there will be a supplier rest assured.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 16, 2011, 07:41:38 PM
Agree Charlie - they can't stop X brand selling or making illegal bats. But they can make it significantly more difficult for them to sell them by a producing a release making clear they're illegal for use in MCC regulated games and taking them off the ICC approved supplier list. Thereby minimising their endorsements.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Johnny on July 16, 2011, 07:47:18 PM
don't the MCC have some governance over bat makers? What about the A grade labels they now have to apply? If a manufacturer is knowingly applying an A grade label to a non-compliant bat, then surely someone somewhere should be able to step in and do something?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Black Cat Cricket on July 16, 2011, 07:48:13 PM
Is it fair to take them off the ICC approved supplier list because they made a bat that they'd say they sold explicitly not for use in an MCC game? I don't think that'd stick...

Ferrari make track-only cars. Are you going to ban them from selling their ordinary cars because some people drive their track cars on the road?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Black Cat Cricket on July 16, 2011, 07:49:36 PM
don't the MCC have some governance over bat makers? What about the A grade labels they now have to apply? If a manufacturer is knowingly applying an A grade label to a non-compliant bat, then surely someone somewhere should be able to step in and do something?

I'm not sure an MCC A Grade sticker being applied to a laminate is the main problem here...!  Laminates aren't officially being sold, so they wouldn't apply such a sticker.  Again though, the batmaker wouldn't apply such a sticker (even if they were officially sold) as they'd say they're not intended for use in MCC governed games.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 16, 2011, 07:50:47 PM
If you want a bat to be able to be used in MCC regulated games it needs a Type sticker. A, B or C.

If you produce an incorrectly graded bat the MCC can contact the MCC and national governing bodies to ban the bats from all authorised cricket.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 16, 2011, 07:53:25 PM
Is it fair to take them off the ICC approved supplier list because they made a bat that they'd say they sold explicitly not for use in an MCC game? I don't think that'd stick...

Ferrari make track-only cars. Are you going to ban them from selling their ordinary cars because some people drive their track cars on the road?
It would depend on if they'd stickered it up in their livery and the MCC type A sticker is there. If it's used in a First Class game and the Type A sticker isn't there, then ban the player. If it's used in a First Class game and the Type a sticker is there, ban them both.

The Type A sticker is akin to a registration plate on a Ferrari.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Black Cat Cricket on July 16, 2011, 07:54:36 PM
If you want a bat to be able to be used in MCC regulated games it needs a Type sticker. A, B or C.

If you produce an incorrectly graded bat the MCC can contact the MCC and national governing bodies to ban the bats from all authorised cricket.

Isn't the point that the batmaker will say it isn't intended for such use, and it is the player that is at fault?  Hence why it is almost impossible for the MCC to do anything more...
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 16, 2011, 07:59:40 PM
Isn't the point that the batmaker will say it isn't intended for such use, and it is the player that is at fault?  Hence why it is almost impossible for the MCC to do anything more...
The batmaker shouldn't have put any grading sticker on it then. A grading sticker means that the batmaker has allowed it to be used in MCC games.

As I said before, if there's no grading sticker and the player uses it. Ban the player. If there is a sticker and the player uses it. Ban them both.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: PM7 on July 16, 2011, 08:10:28 PM
What about players that sticker up their own bats without their sponsors knowledge?
Im assuming that not all brands check the actual bat that displays their livery before the sponsored batsman heads out to bat.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: johnnyw on July 16, 2011, 08:14:00 PM
What about players that sticker up their own bats without their sponsors knowledge?
Im assuming that not all brands check the actual bat that displays their livery before the sponsored batsman heads out to bat.
Stickering up softs is worse in my eyes
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 16, 2011, 08:18:30 PM
What about players that sticker up their own bats without their sponsors knowledge?
Im assuming that not all brands check the actual bat that displays their livery before the sponsored batsman heads out to bat.
If you're giving out stickers to players you're ultimately responsible for what they go on in my eyes. After all, they're gonna take the credit if he scores a ton with that bat.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: jamferg on July 16, 2011, 08:22:03 PM
Perhaps a ICC squad of examiners who can turn up at any first class match or bat manufacturers at any time to inspect all bats? Licence to go anywhere?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 16, 2011, 08:22:50 PM
They do occasionally check at matches, just not often enough. Been caught once...
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: jamferg on July 16, 2011, 08:28:15 PM
I was caught by an oppo player who spotted mine when I was knocking up because of the distance short littel prods were flying! Then threatened to shop me to the owner of D&P ( his mate in SA ) as I have the stickers on the bat.. he let me play with it he said because he wanted to see it in action in a match..51 off 20 odd balls later he was calling the league secretary :D
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Simmy on July 16, 2011, 08:44:01 PM
im scared of getting caught with mine. so tend to only use it in sunday games lol
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: petehosk on July 16, 2011, 08:52:45 PM
Maybe they could hire freelance detectives to examine bats - call them The Unflappables or something. Tom - you'd be ideal as you can spot them.
You could carry a badge and everything  8)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 16, 2011, 08:56:00 PM
do these bats perform significantly better than a top performing keeley pressed bat? i'm dubious tbh
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: aidy1098 on July 16, 2011, 08:57:30 PM
Maybe they could hire freelance detectives to examine bats - call them The Unflappables or something. Tom - you'd be ideal as you can spot them.
You could carry a badge and everything  8)

haha not sure too many club cricketers would know what a laminate bat is, never mind someone going round inspecting there bats
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Simmy on July 16, 2011, 08:59:29 PM
do these bats perform significantly better than a top performing keeley pressed bat? i'm dubious tbh

id say so yeah. dont get me wrong ur not gonna beable to hit the ball an extra 20 meters but i find that for normal shots like pushes and stuff u get alot more out of it. if there was no gain out of it why wud tim make them?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: jonwilson on July 16, 2011, 09:08:57 PM
interesting site
http://engineeringsport.co.uk/2009/10/27/cricket-bat-innovation-smothered-by-law-6/ (http://engineeringsport.co.uk/2009/10/27/cricket-bat-innovation-smothered-by-law-6/)

I like the idea of genetically engineered super willow



Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: 100 not out on July 16, 2011, 10:48:14 PM
Repairs are allowed are they not. Is a laminate a refaced bat?

You could argue that I think.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 16, 2011, 10:53:40 PM
Surface damage, which a refacing would repair, cannot be repaired with solid material.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: tim2000s on July 16, 2011, 11:22:28 PM
To be fair, no-one who doesn't know will spot it. my 'uzi' is not at all obvious and is rather like betting with a trampoline in your hand. you'd need to be in the know.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Liam-SCCC on July 16, 2011, 11:29:26 PM
I was talking to someone who was saying that he was supplying a county cricketer with laminates. When the player questioned it's legality, he said to send the bats to him and he would reface the bats and class it as a repair.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 16, 2011, 11:51:44 PM
Mike?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Number4 on July 17, 2011, 12:57:32 AM
It would depend on if they'd stickered it up in their livery and the MCC type A sticker is there. If it's used in a First Class game and the Type A sticker isn't there, then ban the player. If it's used in a First Class game and the Type a sticker is there, ban them both.

The Type A sticker is akin to a registration plate on a Ferrari.

I tend to agree with Tom on this one
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: 100 not out on July 17, 2011, 08:42:40 AM
If you edge tape along the whole length and use a toe guard. no one will find out.  as long as the grains on the front and back are similar. i think someone ( an established player) used a bat with heartwood on the back and a clean face. . .then that makes it obvious to spot.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 17, 2011, 09:00:06 AM
The easiest way to police the use of Lams is via the umpires.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Number4 on July 17, 2011, 11:13:53 AM
I think the point here is though if batmakers are purposely grading them grade A with the new grading system as required by the mcc, which they obviously are, and batsmen are using then knowing they are laminates action should be taken on both parties.

Lets not forget here that bats need to be stickered, stamped, marked as Grade A to be used in professional cricket.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: 100 not out on July 17, 2011, 11:53:16 AM
Can u imagine the reaction if an umpire pulls up a player of stature ? It would need some balls to do. Umpires must know it goes on.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: tim2000s on July 17, 2011, 11:53:21 AM
I've an idea. Lets make balls with bigger, more pronounced seams that stay shinier for longer, then let the batsmen use laminates...
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Number4 on July 17, 2011, 12:07:14 PM
I don't understand really.... If todays bats are bigger and better and the batmakers of today who are making these bats are some of the best in the world and their bats are claimed as the best then why do they even consider making these bats for international cricketers knowing full well they are illegal.

Who are the batmakers that are making these laminates???.. TK is one... who else?.. I know Laver has made laminates...not faced laminates that i know of.. just laminated edges..not sure if that would class them as performance enhancing or not but the ones we have all seen from them were claimed as grade B anyway, rightly or wrongly so not graded to be used in professional cricket...
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 17, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
Lets not forget here that bats need to be stickered, stamped, marked as Grade A to be used in professional cricket.


(http://p.imgci.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/134900/134916.jpg)

Kirk Edwards scrambles the single that takes him to a debut century, West Indies v India, 3rd Test, Dominica, 4th day, July 9, 2011©AFP

Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 17, 2011, 12:21:58 PM
I've an idea. Lets make balls with bigger, more pronounced seams that stay shinier for longer, then let the batsmen use laminates...

Just ban Kookaburra balls and use Dukes. (Dukes have a proper seam)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Number4 on July 17, 2011, 12:23:33 PM
([url]http://p.imgci.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/134900/134916.jpg[/url])

Kirk Edwards scrambles the single that takes him to a debut century, West Indies v India, 3rd Test, Dominica, 4th day, July 9, 2011©AFP


Doesn't mean there isn't a stamp on the shoulder
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 17, 2011, 12:25:12 PM
Can u imagine the reaction if an umpire pulls up a player of stature ? It would need some balls to do. Umpires must know it goes on.

If the bat is a lam then the player gets reported. Simple , regardless of the player. Think of it like a breathalyzer test but 100% accurate.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 17, 2011, 12:27:33 PM
Doesn't mean there isn't a stamp on the shoulder

Maybe someone has pics of bats stamped on the shoulders stating Grade A , B or C as I have not seen it. (that of course does not mean some bats are).

Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Number4 on July 17, 2011, 12:35:19 PM
Where do companies like Kookaburra and GN place the Grading sticker/stamp???.. I haven't seen any
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: tim2000s on July 17, 2011, 12:43:36 PM
I thought it was part of the handle top sticker so easily swappable...
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Number4 on July 17, 2011, 12:45:07 PM
I just noticed that GM is on the back up near the top shoulder
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 17, 2011, 12:46:05 PM
Maybe someone has pics of bats stamped on the shoulders stating Grade A , B or C as I have not seen it. (that of course does not mean some bats are).


2010 Mongooses were stamped at the shoulder, only 2011 did they switch to a sticker.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: 100 not out on July 17, 2011, 08:04:10 PM


And I'll admit, I'm no shining light. I've unintentionally commissioned illegal bats to be made and seen them used in professional matches.

were these Mongoose bats?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 17, 2011, 08:13:13 PM
I won't comment on what they were. But they were used and once I'd realised the mistake, spent the next week travelling around making them legal. They weren't performance improving and it was a small technicality, but they were illegal under Law 6 nevertheless.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Colesy on July 17, 2011, 09:16:26 PM
We all know they are illegal. In people's eyes who is worse; the players who use the bats or the batmakers who make them?

Players. It's cheating
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: jonpinson on July 17, 2011, 09:34:00 PM
Something doesn't make sense to me in all this. TK is without doubt one of the most highly respected and well thought of batmakers around, yet that he makes lams is the worst kept secret. I wonder why a man with his skill and reputation would create these things which, as has been proven in this thread, can potentially create such ill feeling?

It would fit better if a batmaker of poor reputation was making them, not someone of Keeley's stature.

I just don't see the point of them. They are expensive, they are illegal in 90% of games if you go by the book and to me they should be nothing more than a novelty to be used in nets.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 17, 2011, 09:36:57 PM
outside of this forum, how many people do you think actually know about laminates....

i can safely say i dont think i know a cricketer outside this forum that knows who Tim keeley is let alone a laminate...

I still want one tho
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Simmy on July 17, 2011, 09:43:08 PM
i agree with canners!
10% of the cricket comunity will probs know what they are

people on the forum and some batmakers
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: jonpinson on July 17, 2011, 09:47:45 PM
i agree with canners!
10% of the cricket comunity will probs know what they are

people on the forum and some batmakers

It is fair to say that someone using one at the level the majority of us play is never really going to be an issue, but the concern is that they are being used at higher levels. It just seems like Mr Keeley stands to lose an awful lot comparative to what he could ever gain from making these bats.

Although TK lams are the ones most frequently mentioned, it makes me wonder if anyone else is making them too.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 17, 2011, 09:50:44 PM
if anyone can get me one 2.9 finished with a low middle please be so kind to let me know ;)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Simmy on July 17, 2011, 09:53:31 PM
i can get some weight taken of mine :P
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 17, 2011, 09:54:23 PM
id need half the bat removed to use one of your monsters, or a bit more time spent in the gym lol
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Simmy on July 17, 2011, 09:54:55 PM
2.11 to 2.9 lol its only big more concaving lol
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Number4 on July 18, 2011, 06:17:41 AM
Something doesn't make sense to me in all this. TK is without doubt one of the most highly respected and well thought of batmakers around, yet that he makes lams is the worst kept secret. I wonder why a man with his skill and reputation would create these things which, as has been proven in this thread, can potentially create such ill feeling?

It would fit better if a batmaker of poor reputation was making them, not someone of Keeley's stature.

I just don't see the point of them. They are expensive, they are illegal in 90% of games if you go by the book and to me they should be nothing more than a novelty to be used in nets.

This is exactly what I don't understand as well jon... What I was trying to get at in a roundabout sort of way
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 21, 2011, 03:26:00 PM
You guys are sooo naive.

The authorities KNOW that lams are being used by many international players.

Yet they nod and wink and  tolerate it.

Why?

Because of more sixes.

More sixes look good on TV and attract bigger crowds through the turnstiles...which equals more $$$.

Besides, the Indian players love their lams.

Do you think the BCCI...errr, the ICC will enforce their hypocritical ban?

Don't hold your breathe.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 21, 2011, 03:34:35 PM
Sorry Vic. I disagree. They're not tough enough, but they by no means allow it.

That comes from experience, I had 3 meetings along with a warning from the ECB and MCC after a player used one of my bats which was illegal in nets and was caught. We had to prove the remaining of the shop bats were legal.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: peplow on July 21, 2011, 03:37:28 PM
you must be "sooo naive" then tom ;)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 21, 2011, 03:40:35 PM
Sorry Vic. I disagree. They're not tough enough, but they by no means allow it.

That comes from experience, I had 3 meetings along with a warning from the ECB and MCC after a player used one of my bats which was illegal in nets and was caught. We had to prove the remaining of the shop bats were legal.

oh that explains the recall
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 21, 2011, 03:43:05 PM
Yep. By no means are the MCC allowing it. Just umpires don't know how to spot them, not enough checks are made and the rules are too wooly.

Players are randomly checked for drugs after matches. The same should happen with bats.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 21, 2011, 03:44:36 PM
Is there not an MCC chap on here that was in discussion with Norbs and Talisman last year about the legality of cricket bats ?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 21, 2011, 03:48:25 PM
The same should happen with bats.

Bats should be checked prior to the game even starting (like rugby boot studs) and also when the batsmen arrive at the crease. I have had many emails with the MCC about this but it would appear from their last reply I was maybe asking them to actually do their job and they have gone silent.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Howzat on July 21, 2011, 03:58:39 PM
Bats should be checked prior to the game even starting (like rugby boot studs) and also when the batsmen arrive at the crease. I have had many emails with the MCC about this but it would appear from their last reply I was maybe asking them to actually do their job and they have gone silent.
Maybe they have done what I have done... all emails from your address go into a nice little folder called "James's Musings" which I might get around to reading one day ;)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Liam-SCCC on July 21, 2011, 04:48:53 PM
Only just realised what the 'TK' stands for!
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on July 21, 2011, 04:58:38 PM
Tommy Ketchup ;) after having a few beers at Cheltenham with the worcs lads it seems that some pros stock up on these and use them in games!!

one hadnt even heard of them before whilst the other was more than familiar with them and what benefit they offer
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 21, 2011, 05:10:36 PM
TK lams are now an enigma of sorts. Any Lam can claim to be a TK and there is no one on the flip side that will state it is not  :D
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on July 21, 2011, 05:17:05 PM
easy enough to find out by checking the handle and workmanship if uv got a trained eye
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 21, 2011, 05:31:15 PM
easy enough to find out by checking the handle and workmanship if uv got a trained eye

That is if the buyer has a TK Lam at hand to cross reference with which of course would defeat the whole overall purpose of buying one.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Vic Nicholas on July 22, 2011, 03:45:15 AM
With the dwindling supply of Grade 1 willow as time goes by, Lams will be completely legalized within a decade for practical reasons.

I don't know about the MCC, but the BCCI will never enforce the ban on lams. The IPL would die of boredom if lams were strictly stamped out.

MCC no longer run the game, the BCCI do.

Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 22, 2011, 05:41:29 AM
easy enough to find out by checking the handle and workmanship if uv got a trained eye

Tom i may need to borrow your trained eye soon, whats the going rate ?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 22, 2011, 06:06:18 AM
Tom i may need to borrow your trained eye soon, whats the going rate ?

An eye 4 an eye   :D
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 22, 2011, 06:26:09 AM
i quite like my eyes thanks.....
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on July 22, 2011, 08:03:47 AM
Call it a pint michael ;) lol and a pack of pork scratchings!
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 22, 2011, 08:06:28 AM
done deal mate.......

Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: tim2000s on July 22, 2011, 08:07:54 AM
And I thought all TK laminates came with a shoulder stamp denoting year and month of manufacture...

(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr293/tim2000s/Uzi-50mm15.jpg)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 22, 2011, 08:08:58 AM
wasnt yours a newbery? so i guess that would explain it....
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Simmy on July 22, 2011, 08:09:57 AM
only newberys are stamped mate
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on July 22, 2011, 08:11:02 AM
Indeed, only bats made for newbery will have their stamp upon them as well as the stickers.....yours is prob a very rare breed Tim!
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Simmy on July 22, 2011, 08:13:04 AM
u have c3 stamped lol
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: tim2000s on July 22, 2011, 08:15:17 AM
u have c3 stamped lol
There's one on the side with PO on it...
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Number4 on July 22, 2011, 09:26:49 AM
You guys are sooo naive.

The authorities KNOW that lams are being used by many international players.

Yet they nod and wink and  tolerate it.

Why?

Because of more sixes.

More sixes look good on TV and attract bigger crowds through the turnstiles...which equals more $$$.

Besides, the Indian players love their lams.

Do you think the BCCI...errr, the ICC will enforce their hypocritical ban?

Don't hold your breathe.

If a batmaker can't make a bat that will hit sixes then maybe they shouldn't be making bats
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: jonpinson on July 22, 2011, 12:00:20 PM
Precisely. Sixes existed long before laminates.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: 100 not out on July 22, 2011, 12:02:55 PM
Do these bats give a noticeable advantage to the batsman?

i am not totally convinced on that.!!  i have had two of these btw.

Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 22, 2011, 12:05:10 PM
i thought this would be the case unless you get a really good one?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 22, 2011, 12:26:31 PM
A Pro Cleft bat will offer far better performance than any Lam any day of the week.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 22, 2011, 12:32:23 PM
but i bet it wont last very long?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 22, 2011, 12:36:39 PM
but i bet it wont last very long?

Another cricket bat myth. Who said low density clefts will not last ?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 22, 2011, 12:37:57 PM
 how about you get me one and let me find out ;)

 
Another cricket bat myth. Who said low density clefts will not last ?

my one didnt last very long
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 22, 2011, 12:43:21 PM
A Pro Cleft bat will offer far better performance than any Lam any day of the week.

what about a pro cleft with a laminated face?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 22, 2011, 12:56:49 PM
what about a pro cleft with a laminated face?

Why would you even want to lam a low density cleft when a ldc can out perform an illegal bat ?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: peplow on July 22, 2011, 12:59:25 PM
why do pro's use lams then? especially pro's that could get some of the best willow there is...
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 22, 2011, 01:01:18 PM
why do pro's use lams then? especially pro's that could get some of the best willow there is

very good point
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: tim2000s on July 22, 2011, 01:01:39 PM
how about you get me one and let me find out ;)

 
my one didnt last very long

But you're supposed to use it to play cricket canners! ;)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 22, 2011, 01:04:30 PM
haha, i needed to use something to knock those tent pegs in tho :)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: tommo256 on July 22, 2011, 01:24:16 PM
Surely batsmen would realise its illegal? Therefore they wouldn't do it
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: peplow on July 22, 2011, 01:27:41 PM
Surely batsmen would realise its illegal? Therefore they wouldn't do it

you'd like to think that, and i think most that know anything about bats would not use them... i'd hope :)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 22, 2011, 01:33:05 PM
wasnt Ponting known for using one?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 22, 2011, 01:43:47 PM
not gonna argue with you james, i sent you proof of one, not willing to say it on here. Take it how you want but i m not here to argue or call people out.

My posts have been removed Sam so it's a dead duck of a discussion.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: peplow on July 22, 2011, 01:52:10 PM
well that saves a touchy subject. nothing more said from me.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 22, 2011, 02:09:45 PM
At the very least it's fair to say that whoever uses an illegal product is a cheat.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Jenko on July 22, 2011, 02:20:19 PM
http://www.callencricket.com.au/testimonials.asp

Go about half way down and look at the "20/20 cricket laminated flat bat"
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Simmy on July 22, 2011, 02:40:12 PM
A Pro Cleft bat will offer far better performance than any Lam any day of the week.
biggest load of (No Swearing Please) i have ever heard.

i AM SO SICK OF THIS PRO SPEC CLEFT BAT (No Swearing Please)!


they dont get bats any better than the rest of us! maybe they get a lower desity cleft at a push but many of us have them as well,

all bull (No Swearing Please).

the tk lams have amazing performance! but my 3.2 destinction has better middle than the lam. it is not a pro spec bat its just a big bat
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: jonpinson on July 22, 2011, 07:01:46 PM
At the very least it's fair to say that whoever uses an illegal product is a cheat.

Somebody check my pulse please, I agree with this completely.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: jonpinson on July 22, 2011, 07:11:57 PM
biggest load of (No Swearing Please) i have ever heard.

i AM SO SICK OF THIS PRO SPEC CLEFT BAT (No Swearing Please)!


they dont get bats any better than the rest of us! maybe they get a lower desity cleft at a push but many of us have them as well,

all bull (No Swearing Please).

the tk lams have amazing performance! but my 3.2 destinction has better middle than the lam. it is not a pro spec bat its just a big bat

It is one of the million or so phrases that get banded around by people trying to sell bats to us. It is also a topic that has been discussed ad nauseum here. Even big producers like GN have got so wrapped up in this pro bat nonsense that their range is confused. They produce 'limited edition' grade as well as 'pro performance' grade. Someone please tell me the difference, or which is 'better'. I bet the answer from GN would be contradictory. Now of course we are told that the England captain has suddenly become an expert in selecting willow, so much so indeed that we are invited to pay £1000 for his expert eye.

I must admit that pair of Black Cat 'pro' bats made me giggle. Priced higher than most because they had been offered to, and rejected by several well known pros. Probably the worst looking BC bats I've yet seen, grain wise at least. But add that 'pro' moniker and folks will fight for them. They were sold as special because they were supposedly big for their weight (low density in not so many words), but frankly these days if you want a big light bat, buy just about anything made in Pakistan. Huge, huge bats. And please, don't try and argue that there is a difference - of course there is, but it isn't one that should logically make one 3 times as expensive...

Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: roco on July 22, 2011, 07:17:17 PM
Having used a tk lam I can't say the middle was noticeably (sorry about the spelling Jon) better than my other bats I've had I have found after a bat is "grade 1/a" there's not much difference in performance other than form just in pick up due to the skill of the maker/quality of the machine ;) as most are pressed in the same place or by someone that knows what there doing hopefully
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: roco on July 22, 2011, 07:24:30 PM
No it's just I thought I may have spelt it wrong and you seem to be an articulate chap

No offence was intended sorry
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: jonpinson on July 22, 2011, 07:26:39 PM
No it's just I thought I may have spelt it wrong and you seem to be an articulate chap

No offence was intended sorry

Removed, sorry chap. Compleet misinturpritashun. ;)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: roco on July 22, 2011, 07:32:10 PM
It's all good no harm done as I tend to agree with you over the whole "pro bat" thing as too many get sucked in when I was told by a person who seemed to know his stuff you can get the over dried/artificial low density thing by sticking your bat in the airing cupboard so as to loose ounces but keep the size

I tend to think it's the bloke using it that makes the difference
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: procricket on July 22, 2011, 07:45:34 PM
too right roco

although the air dried technology or airing cupboard does work and works well i think i have perfected it now.

But all in all it not the bat it the player

bats are a tool but the batsman is the tradesman

Laminates seen a few never seen the point
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Black Cat Cricket on July 22, 2011, 09:19:05 PM
I must admit that pair of Black Cat 'pro' bats made me giggle. Priced higher than most because they had been offered to, and rejected by several well known pros.

Think I said quite clearly recently somewhere that they weren't rejected, they were in fact very popular, but the players weren't going to play £300+.

Had you seen the bats in the flesh yourself and formed your opinion based on that, I'd accept it. You haven't, and have therefore you are talking complete rubbish.

Yes the area of pro/players bats is a grey area, I have sold 'standard' bats to professional players to sticker up.  However the general consensus is that a pro/players bat is one that is very big for the weight, and one that 'pings' very well, but may not last as long.  If you're seriously telling me there's no difference between these and a standard bat performance wise, then you must never have seen or played with one!

That said, my point on such bats is this: most people don't actually want one.  You buy such a bat in full knowledge that it will go like an absolute rocket, but if you play a fair bit of cricket, it might last you a third or a half of a season.  Not many people are happy with spending very good money on a bat that will last them 700 odd runs, and rightly so.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 22, 2011, 09:30:30 PM
Interesting post Charlie. So pros have bought a standard 'shop' bat at what I presume was £240, but aren't willing to pay the extra £60 for a pro bat. How much better were they? 
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Black Cat Cricket on July 22, 2011, 10:17:43 PM
Interesting post Charlie. So pros have bought a standard 'shop' bat at what I presume was £240, but aren't willing to pay the extra £60 for a pro bat. How much better were they? 

There have been instances where players have bought bats that one wouldn't class as a 'pro bat' but they've been more than happy with it as it has still been miles better than what their sponsor has given them.  I do not charge full price to players as they tend to buy 5/6 a season, amongst many other reasons.  One such reason is if you support a team and one of their main players needs a good bat, then you'd do your best to help him out.  A bit like a Liverpool cabbie who would probably drive Steven Gerrard for free to a game, yet would charge full price to a punter...
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 22, 2011, 10:22:41 PM
I presume from that you also offered the 'pro' bat out too, at a discounted price? If so why didn't they take it?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Black Cat Cricket on July 22, 2011, 10:42:16 PM
I presume from that you also offered the 'pro' bat out too, at a discounted price? If so why didn't they take it?

Crikey you want an argument tonight. You're not going to get one from me, it's not my ideal way of spending a Friday night arguing on an online forum...

The player I promised some bats to loved them but they were too light for him.  His teammates were very interested, but I told them I'd get in touch if it was available after putting them up for sale here.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 22, 2011, 10:44:29 PM
I'm only questioning you because none of your stories add up!
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: petehosk on July 22, 2011, 10:45:50 PM
Tom often seems to try and bait people into arguments these days!
Obviously his pubity hormones are kicking in! He'll be shaving next!  ;)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Black Cat Cricket on July 22, 2011, 10:46:15 PM
Seems as if you're questioning me because you have nothing better to do, to be honest.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: tim2000s on July 22, 2011, 10:46:58 PM
Feeling a bit like handbags at dawn, this conversation...
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: procricket on July 22, 2011, 10:47:16 PM
i disagree i think tom has been freed from the publicity crap many get into

pro bats bloody hell there that pro joe bloggs of the bat forum is using them...
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: tim2000s on July 22, 2011, 10:49:23 PM
Dave, don't disagree with you, just commenting on the sentiment coming through!
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Johnny on July 22, 2011, 10:49:25 PM
can BlackCat source laminates?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Black Cat Cricket on July 22, 2011, 10:50:05 PM
can BlackCat source laminates?

No, and my personal opinion on them is I wouldn't be happy to supply them if I could.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: procricket on July 22, 2011, 10:54:03 PM
In the last 2 years i have had 4 "pro" bats one for morkel,kholi,azmat,jadhav 

and i tell you this all were brand new and all bar one nothing special and i have the special one now

im missing the point i know but are laminates all that as well

i saw a tk one sounded good but nothing extrodinary

anyhow most like me will not see a difference
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Canners on July 22, 2011, 10:59:20 PM
can BlackCat source laminates?

I asked this earlier and got a no as well

I bet he'd give steven gerrard one if he was a Liverpool fan tho ;)
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Tom on July 22, 2011, 11:04:15 PM
Seems as if you're questioning me because you have nothing better to do, to be honest.
Just returning the compliment for the questioning I got whilst at Mongoose from you :p
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Black Cat Cricket on July 22, 2011, 11:06:02 PM
I asked this earlier and got a no as well

I bet he'd give steven gerrard one if he was a Liverpool fan tho ;)

I am a Liverpool fan and I'd give Stevie G my car if he asked for it...
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: peplow on July 23, 2011, 10:57:54 AM
interesting listening on the test match on sky now..
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: PM7 on July 23, 2011, 11:00:40 AM
Yes as Bumble said the 4th umpire checks the bats for width and has a caliper to measure it.
If a laminated bat is being used there would be plenty of edge tape id imagine and it would be a thin laminated front. The Umps must be clued up on Lams?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Lekka Global Alliance on July 23, 2011, 11:08:18 AM
Yes as Bumble said the 4th umpire checks the bats for width and has a caliper to measure it.
If a laminated bat is being used there would be plenty of edge tape id imagine and it would be a thin laminated front. The Umps must be clued up on Lams?


Yes PM7 but the 4th umpire is not out in the middle where the bat is being used to commit the offence.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: PM7 on July 23, 2011, 11:12:10 AM
Working within a team it wouldnt take much to have a word with his 2 fellow umpires on the field.
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: tommo256 on July 23, 2011, 11:13:08 AM
Surely they could show a legal bat, to prove it and then take an illegal one out of bag or locker and bat with it?
Title: Re: Laminates
Post by: Village Trundler on December 18, 2011, 05:41:12 AM
If the bat is a lam then the player gets reported. Simple , regardless of the player. Think of it like a breathalyzer test but 100% accurate.

Remember what happened the last time an umpire was balsy enough to enforce the laws of the game? He called Murali for chucking, then copped it from everywhere......and so ended the courage of umpires.