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Companies => Off-the-shelf companies => Gray Nicolls => Topic started by: Cover_Drive on October 28, 2011, 04:56:23 AM

Title: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Cover_Drive on October 28, 2011, 04:56:23 AM: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yXM-g8K5pKw

Amazing bat it is! held it and loved it brilliant stick!
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Cover_Drive on October 28, 2011, 04:57:21 AM: Hmm not too sure about the bow/curve, but is that true?

Haven't heard that before...:S
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Hads45 on October 28, 2011, 05:04:14 AM: There ok. They do pick up light for how big they are but It doesnt feel right to me.
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Richard lowy on October 28, 2011, 08:56:32 AM: An interesting development as a bat. The big edges are achieved by having a totally flat face and square edges, the low weight achieved through taking a large amount of wood out. The cubic mass of the bat is much less than many more conventional shapes which can affect performance. The swell is high but concentrated in a very small area. If you hit the ball regularly with perfect timing right in the centre of the drive the bat will perform well but slightly off drive because of the lack of wood it won't perform as well as other shapes. That is proven science.

The weight of a cricket bat is its volume times its average density. That is a physical fact; none of us can get around it.

Willow grades have an average density that will increase as you go down the grades. Bat makers may vary in their grading, but a Grade 1 will be pretty much the same average density as a Grade 1 used by everyone. There is no such thing as super light willow.

So, weights of bats will vary according to the volume of willow in a blade that really is what this boils down to. Seeing a big edge might give you confidence but this is misplaced if you think it will hit a ball further or more consistently.

If you like to see big edges and you hit with the consistency of a professional then this may be a bat for you. However if you hit slightly off centre the science shows you will achieve a higher performance with more wood in a more conventional shape and design.

Then there is the age old question of the square edge and its durability.....a question for another time!

Richard
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Six Sixes Cricket on October 28, 2011, 09:47:57 AM: So Richard

"There is no such thing as super light willow."

How do you explain this?

http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=14120.0

And welcome to the forum
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Buzz on October 28, 2011, 10:14:09 AM: Nice to have you on board Richard - further to what you have said, what is you view on the effects of decreasing moisture content in willow?

thanks
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Edward Lowy on October 28, 2011, 10:42:37 AM: Quote from: d7bow on October 28, 2011, 09:47:57 AM
So Richard

"There is no such thing as super light willow."

How do you explain this?

[url]http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=14120.0[/url]

And welcome to the forum

Now make me 1,000 of those at that weight.

:o

Kind regards

Edward
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on October 28, 2011, 11:09:21 AM: Still doesnt answer d7bow's question though......
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: thecord on October 28, 2011, 02:32:39 PM: Quote from: Edward Lowy on October 28, 2011, 10:42:37 AM
Now make me 1,000 of those at that weight.

:o

Kind regards

Edward

So are you saying that this type of willow does exist just not in the quantities to mass produce?
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on October 28, 2011, 02:40:22 PM: bit of a contradiction between Richard and Edward it seems....the willow does exist but not in large volumes which is probably why its reserved for the "Pro" bats or used for the most expensive models in the retail arena (£500) ???
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 28, 2011, 02:52:44 PM: Quote from: Ayrtek on October 28, 2011, 02:40:22 PM
bit of a contradiction between Richard and Edward it seems....the willow does exist but not in large volumes which is probably why its reserved for the "Pro" bats or used for the most expensive models in the retail arena (£500) ???

Tom the players bats are LE willow remember, not player graded willow
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: peplow on October 28, 2011, 02:53:29 PM: another contradiction being that GM dont look at any other companies "Not familiar with the bats you mention I'm afraid, we just tend to think GM" but are happy to talk down the e41 by GN.
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 28, 2011, 02:57:07 PM: I think the E41 looks a marvellous bat, would I get much change from 500 notes?
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: uknsaunders on October 28, 2011, 03:03:11 PM: Quote from: peplow on October 28, 2011, 02:53:29 PM
another contradiction being that GM dont look at any other companies "Not familiar with the bats you mention I'm afraid, we just tend to think GM" but are happy to talk down the e41 by GN.

I tihnk they are just pointing out the obvious - that if you put extra wood into one area then normally it comes from another spot on the bat ie. the volume remains the same for any given weight...Except for the odd magic low density cleft that appears in small quantities and we rarely get to see
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: peplow on October 28, 2011, 03:04:55 PM: i dont disagree with any of the logic in it :)
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Edward Lowy on October 28, 2011, 05:23:29 PM: Quote from: thecord on October 28, 2011, 02:32:39 PM
So are you saying that this type of willow does exist just not in the quantities to mass produce?

Thats correct, yes

Kind regards

Edward
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Edward Lowy on October 28, 2011, 05:24:02 PM: Quote from: uknsaunders on October 28, 2011, 03:03:11 PM
I tihnk they are just pointing out the obvious - that if you put extra wood into one area then normally it comes from another spot on the bat ie. the volume remains the same for any given weight...Except for the odd magic low density cleft that appears in small quantities and we rarely get to see

Spot on!

Kind regards

Edward
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Six Sixes Cricket on October 28, 2011, 05:34:46 PM: Quote from: Edward Lowy on October 28, 2011, 10:42:37 AM
Now make me 1,000 of those at that weight.

:o

Kind regards

Edward

Best Speak to Andy at Laver @ Wood, Edward

Mind you there is a 4 week wait for 1 bat at the mo :D
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 28, 2011, 05:44:37 PM: Quote from: d7bow on October 28, 2011, 05:34:46 PM
Best Speak to Andy at Laver @ Wood, Edward

Mind you there is a 4 week wait for 1 bat at the mo :D

4 weeks?
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Six Sixes Cricket on October 28, 2011, 05:48:23 PM: Quote from: Canners on October 28, 2011, 05:44:37 PM
4 weeks?

4 week turn around if your having one made from date of order.
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 28, 2011, 05:54:15 PM: Quote from: d7bow on October 28, 2011, 05:48:23 PM
4 week turn around if your having one made from date of order.

what if your getting 2 ? ;)
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Six Sixes Cricket on October 28, 2011, 05:56:21 PM: Still 4 weeks for you as 1 of them was that rejected "special" bat ;)
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 28, 2011, 06:09:33 PM: Quote from: d7bow on October 28, 2011, 05:56:21 PM
Still 4 weeks for you as 1 of them was that rejected "special" bat ;)

still bitter i beat you to it i see ;)
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Six Sixes Cricket on October 28, 2011, 06:26:10 PM: Yep, every time I see u post the dagger turns ;)
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 28, 2011, 06:31:25 PM: Haha :)

have you seen this by any chance ? ;)

(http://www.laverwood.co.nz/images/spoffers/SRUProfile.JPG)

(http://www.laverwood.co.nz/images/spoffers/SRUBack.JPG)

(http://www.laverwood.co.nz/images/spoffers/SRUFace.JPG)
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Jones129 on October 28, 2011, 06:59:31 PM: i ordered my laver the other day and told me 6 weeks
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Six Sixes Cricket on October 28, 2011, 07:03:09 PM: Quote from: Canners on October 28, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
Haha :)

have you seen this by any chance ? ;)

([url]http://www.laverwood.co.nz/images/spoffers/SRUProfile.JPG[/url])

([url]http://www.laverwood.co.nz/images/spoffers/SRUBack.JPG[/url])

([url]http://www.laverwood.co.nz/images/spoffers/SRUFace.JPG[/url])

Yes that's the one they dropped on the floor and got damaged. Shame really, looked an ok bat.
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 28, 2011, 07:07:10 PM: Quote from: d7bow on October 28, 2011, 07:03:09 PM
Yes that's the one they dropped on the floor and got damaged. Shame really, looked an ok bat.

i thought i felt a tremor this morning lol
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: roco on October 28, 2011, 07:09:59 PM: My new bat only has 27mm edges I feel small now compared to that
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 28, 2011, 07:15:34 PM: Quote from: roco on October 28, 2011, 07:09:59 PM
My new bat only has 27mm edges I feel small now compared to that

remember, its not the size.... its what you do with it that counts
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Six Sixes Cricket on October 28, 2011, 07:16:28 PM: + you can't take them in the showers
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 28, 2011, 07:18:53 PM: Quote from: d7bow on October 28, 2011, 07:16:28 PM
+ you can't take them in the showers

because of the moisture content? haha
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: roco on October 28, 2011, 07:30:19 PM: Quote from: Canners on October 28, 2011, 07:15:34 PM
remember, its not the size.... its what you do with it that counts

We'll it has a 75mm ish spine so makes up for it
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Six Sixes Cricket on October 28, 2011, 07:36:27 PM: Sounds like an old school distincion.
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: roco on October 28, 2011, 07:38:18 PM: It's a copy of one you clever clogs
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 28, 2011, 07:38:48 PM: i was gonna say that, or a retro
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Six Sixes Cricket on October 28, 2011, 07:42:09 PM: Quote from: roco on October 28, 2011, 07:38:18 PM
It's a copy of one you clever clogs

I thought about getting 1 done but with a lamitoe to protect. May we ask who the pod shaver is?
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: roco on October 28, 2011, 07:44:13 PM: I've just heard about the toe troubles but I'm sure it will be fine

It's one mike had done before hibernating

I can't see why the toe problems as does not look a weak toe but incase who does lami toes well?
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: 100 not out on October 28, 2011, 07:46:02 PM: Got any pics? Is it a copy of a m and h that some nutter from the forum had custom made.
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: roco on October 28, 2011, 07:47:45 PM: Yes it's a copy of that one by tk apparently
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: roco on October 28, 2011, 07:50:11 PM: (http://emob957.photobucket.com/albums/ae59/ajer2000/9a3c322c.jpg?t=1319831327)
(http://emob957.photobucket.com/albums/ae59/ajer2000/13692512.jpg?t=1319831328)
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Six Sixes Cricket on October 28, 2011, 07:51:10 PM: Quote from: roco on October 28, 2011, 07:44:13 PM
I've just heard about the toe troubles but I'm sure it will be fine

It's one mike had done before hibernating

I can't see why the toe problems as does not look a weak toe but incase who does lami toes well?

There was a topic on this a couple of weeks ago, listing a few company's that do it.
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: 100 not out on October 28, 2011, 07:53:50 PM: What weight??? The original was a beast had a great pick up too.
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: 100 not out on October 28, 2011, 07:56:31 PM: So you see it's not all about edge size. The scat I have doesn't have massive edges it's has minimal concaving and average size edges but boy does it shift.
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: roco on October 28, 2011, 07:59:35 PM: 2lb13 with a chevron as has less concaving than the original but has a great pick up but will have to see what it's like when I net with it
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 28, 2011, 08:00:08 PM: that is a lovely looking bat, where is Talisman when you need him?
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Six Sixes Cricket on October 28, 2011, 08:02:18 PM: Quote from: 100 not out on October 28, 2011, 07:56:31 PM
So you see it's not all about edge size. The scat I have doesn't have massive edges it's has minimal concaving and average size edges but boy does it shift.

Hand made my one of the best in the world. That helps.
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on October 28, 2011, 08:56:14 PM: If anyone can find the lamitoe topic it would be good as may need one on mine...have waved roco's new wand about as seeing old furry face many moons ago. Must say its a beaut.
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: roco on October 28, 2011, 09:00:38 PM: Apparently tk made modifications to the original design to make it stronger so we will see

Surely too big for you little Thomas
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on October 28, 2011, 09:04:47 PM: hark at u giving it the big un ;) 2.12 if im not mistaken?? without 3 durex grips which are ribbed for ur pleasure!
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: roco on October 28, 2011, 09:06:32 PM: 2lb13 single chevron then the family planning clinic ones on I can't afford durex I don't own my own company you know
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on October 28, 2011, 09:09:03 PM: haha yeh get the glow in the dark ones on it ul never loose ur bat then....avoid the flavoured ones they will rot ur leather palms
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Richard lowy on October 30, 2011, 08:13:59 PM: Thank you for your welcome and giving me the opportunity to comment. I apologise for not being as prolific or eloquent as my brother!

The Unicorn Group owned by Edward and myself of whom GM is a member company has its foundation in technical sports engineering and research so our / my comments are substantiated with technical research.

I learnt at an early age that you don’t put your head over the parapet unless you are qualified and certain of your facts. Those that know me and GM well would substantiate that we are qualified on both.

If I may address the questions or points raised of me by person, I hope I don’t miss anyone or any question out .

d7bow. Super Light Willow.

I don’t believe there is a consistent “strain” of lower density willow freely available and or grown in significant volume. I could be wrong but that would also mean that several world leading experts in timber research and technology are also unaware to.

If your question relates to varying density of willow then of course I agree across grades. Not often across trees . Occasionally a light cleft can be found. These “lighter clefts” very rare I might add and raise questions. In our experience they do not necessarily produce a good performance bat. Sometimes they do but because they are the exception it is hard to be precise.

To put a bit more flesh on that. About 60,000 English Willow clefts pass through GM’s Nottingham facility each year. Source varies from own felled and merchant sourced. Each cleft is graded, weighed and tested for moisture content. Having passed through our seasoning process each cleft arrives at the production point with the exact same moisture content. At this point the weights are so consistent across the grades and over the years, that we can conclude a super light willow does not exist.

d7bow. How do you explain this?
http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=14120.0

Really that is covered in my original post.

To put a bit more flesh on the blunt reply. A cleft depending on grade weighs 5 to 6 lbs at point of manufacture. I know this may be different for some but in general for GM that is where we are after opening a round up, extracting the cleft and after the seasoning process.

To end up with a bat at 2lbs 8oz you remove a mass of willow. Where you remove the willow from and what you decide to leave is up to the designer. The depth of edge can be increased by having a flat face and shaping elsewhere. In the case of your illustration the flat face is evident and the shape looks to have a lot of wood removed elsewhere to create the low weight.

All this assumes the bat is made to a men’s length and width, at what point it is weighed and with what handle as that weight can vary to.

I can’t be precise as I am looking at an illustration.

In the case of the E41 and other bats I am more confident as by our DXM computer modelling and with actual product we have calculated the exact mass which led me to my post by pointing out that though the edges are big actually a standard GM Flare with much smaller edges has more wood in it.

Science shows as I pointed out in my original post that the best overall blade performance and durability cannot be achieved by removing willow mass in the pursuit of a large edge and a low weight.

Buzz Thank you! Actually a very frequent visitor and thread follow, but a very poor poster sorry.

Ayrtek. d7bow question

Now answered.

Ayrtek, peplow. Contradiction

Far from it. Same points made a different way.

Always aware of competitors and developments, we never stop learning, but forgive me, always on our own message.

Peplow . Talking down

I would respectfully ask you to read my post as I don’t understand how you or indeed anyone can conclude I am “talking down the E41”. Far from it. That is neither my position nor my style. I merely point out a series of facts and offer them for consideration and discussion.

roco Your bat.

A big edge won’t make you play better or hit the ball further or more consistently. At point of purchase you may feel it will. But I don’t need to tell anyone on this informed forum about where to hit a ball on the blade to extract the best performance, but it’s not on the edge.

To put flesh on this. Looking back through our archive of bats, we have several hundred going back to the early 1800’s. Many of these are bats of test and leading players of their generation with records of achievements. Most of the designs would be considered “tiny and unsaleable” today but they scored hundreds of thousands of runs and performed.

The science tells us that this is about timing and striking the ball in the correct area of blade very consistently.

It of course does not preclude new developments and designs but it is worth thinking about.

Hads45
I appreciate your post was before mine but I hope you would indulge me if I added a comment. I agree with you in general terms. Some of these extreme edge / extreme swell / light weight shapes have an unbalanced feel and pick up to some players, not all but to some. Many of our experimental designs have had that to. I recall similar pick up issues a few years back with the extreme bow shapes.

At GM we focus on pick up, performance off the blade and durability. A GM bat across our whole range should have those consistencies. Picking up our bats should always have the GM feel in the same way that whatever BMW you get in has the BMW DNA across their whole programme.

My post and opinions offered here are just that, technically sound and with supporting data. I am not closed to anyone’s view of course but would consider those based on the facts I know.

Richard
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 30, 2011, 08:23:33 PM: Richard, so why do the gm bats that the players are actually using look so ruddy big, i.e Ravi's and Samit Patels bats that they were using out in India? i cant imagine both of these players are using 3lb+ bats?
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Joe on October 30, 2011, 08:23:54 PM: Quote from: Richard lowy on October 30, 2011, 08:13:59 PM
The depth of edge can be increased by having a flat face and shaping elsewhere.

What is a flat face? Is it just very square edges?

Excuse me for my naivety
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Colesy on October 30, 2011, 08:25:59 PM: Quote from: JoeHig on October 30, 2011, 08:23:54 PM

What is a flat face? Is it just very square edges?

Excuse me for my naivety

A good example is an Indian bat which will have a very flat face with very sharp corners where it merges with the edge. An English blade will have a curved face with more rounded corners merging to the edge.

If that makes sense....
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Richard lowy on October 30, 2011, 08:30:23 PM: it's in the design, removal of less wood and they don't have the size of edge talked about in this post. It's hard to explain in writing easy with bats to hand. Also they don't weigh 2.8.
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Richard lowy on October 30, 2011, 08:33:32 PM: Quote from: Colesy on October 30, 2011, 08:25:59 PM
A good example is an Indian bat which will have a very flat face with very sharp corners where it merges with the edge. An English blade will have a curved face with more rounded corners merging to the edge.

If that makes sense....

Exactly. Our faces are concave, edges rounded. That is a whole other debate but for durability and performance our preferred option
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Richard lowy on October 30, 2011, 08:34:42 PM: Quote from: Richard lowy on October 30, 2011, 08:30:23 PM
it's in the design, removal of less wood and they don't have the size of edge talked about in this post. It's hard to explain in writing easy with bats to hand. Also they don't weigh 2.8.

This was in relation to Canners post
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Joe on October 30, 2011, 08:39:25 PM: Quote from: Colesy on October 30, 2011, 08:25:59 PM
A good example is an Indian bat which will have a very flat face with very sharp corners where it merges with the edge. An English blade will have a curved face with more rounded corners merging to the edge.

If that makes sense....

Perfect sense

the Bradbury bats I've seen always have very flat faces - how does it reduce weight/deepen edges?
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Canners on October 30, 2011, 09:05:12 PM: Quote from: Richard lowy on October 30, 2011, 08:34:42 PM
This was in relation to Canners post

thanks, can you reveal the weights that they do use?
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: Richard lowy on October 30, 2011, 09:35:18 PM: Quote from: JoeHig on October 30, 2011, 08:39:25 PM

Perfect sense

the Bradbury bats I've seen always have very flat faces - how does it reduce weight/deepen edges?

It does not reduce the weight but a square edge to a flat face will add 2-3mm to the edge measured front to back compared to an edge with a radius
Title: Re: Stuart Kranzbuhler talks about Gray Nicolls e41
Post by: uknsaunders on October 30, 2011, 09:46:41 PM: thanks Richard for your very detailed explanations!

Just wondering, have GM played around with designing a flat face bat in the past?