Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Number4 on December 16, 2011, 01:05:55 PM
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Ok so everyone here always wants a bat at a certain weight and if it is an ounce too heavy or too light it's no good and goes back to the maker or gets sold.
To be honest I am a bit over hearing people say " oh it's an 1.5oz's over my weight I can't used it"
Surely the pickup weight of a bat is far more important than dead weight so why do we persist in carrying on about dead weight and if it doesn't weigh exactly on the scales at 2lb 8oz or whatever the weight is it goes back or is sold on.
If it weighs 2lb 10oz but picks up like 2lb 8oz isn't that the important thing??
I would have thought that if the weight of the bat is distributed correctly and the pickup is good then it shouldn't effect bat speed. Infact I did a little experimenting the other day removing grips off a bat I have which altered picked quite noticably. With the extra grips it weighed approx 5oz's heavier but felt lighter on the pickup and while shadow batting felt like bat speed was better as well.
What are everyones thoughts on Pickup vs Dead weight.
I think the actual dead weight of a bat is more of a mind thing and maybe makes us think we are far more fussy than we really need to be.
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With my bad shoulder i found the dead weight to be the deciding factor, although lighter pick up would feel better in the hands etc, the results of lagging around the dead weight would take its toll on my shoulder in proportion to how heavy the bat was not how heavy it felt. But i agree to most pick up should be the bigger factor, and its big mind games when people cant use above a certain weight!
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for me pick up is important. i think dead weight is good as an indicator. if a bats in your dead weight range atleast you know if the pick up is decent then it should suit. personally i dont think an ounce or 2 makes a massive difference. i dont think i could really tell if something is that minor over your weight range. i have a similar grip set up with 2 and a half grips. adds a decent amount of weight but makes the pick up even better
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I think it depends largely on the profile of the bat as well; I have played mostly on those low wickets growing up and all my friends (some of them 1st class players) and me were forced to use bats with low sweetspots and for us the dead weight of the bats was always very important because of the bottom heaviness of the bat profiles we were forced to use because of the conditions. I hope this makes sense.
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if a bats in your dead weight range atleast you know if the pick up is decent then it should suit.
Spot on - pick up is the most important thing. But you need something to compare it against - dead weight is the only thing that you can.
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I use a dead weight range of between 2lb12-3lb as lighter feels like a matchstick and heavier I'm too late so ask for a bat in that range but as good a pick up as profile will allow
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It's an interesting question, but the last batoff actually had a bat that answered your question.
The GM Icon we used weighed more than 3lb. All of the testers agreed that it picked up really, really well. If you go and watch the videos, you can see that universally, everyone had problems playing the ball properly because they couldn't swing the bat through in time and were late with their shots.
What does this tell us? When you play a shot you use gravity and your muscles to get the bat in the right place. If the dead weight of the bat is too heavy for your mechanical systems to overcome the inertia, you cannot play the ball properly. Even if it picks up really well, you still have to use an amount of force to generate momentum with the bat, so a 3lber that picks up like 2lb10oz still requires the force needed for a 3lb bat to move it in the right direction.
What am I saying? Pick-up is how we feel with the bat. If it doesn't pick up how we like we won't feel comfortable playing our shots. Dead weight affects our ability to move the bat to where we need it. If it is too heavy for us then we will fail at this, and no matter how well it picks up, we won't be able to play properly with it.
For me a range of 2lb9oz to 2lb13oz fits the bill and anything heavier starts to incur a cost with me being late to the ball.
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Good thread OP.
I am a bit fussed over pick up rather dead weight. I personally use 2 lb 8 oz bat while if I get something heavier in terms of weight but picks up well I stick with it.
For example, my Screaming Cat is 2 lb 13 oz but it picks up extremely well so I don't mind and that applies for many other bats I have.
So definitely pickup is much much more important rather than dead weight.
If I find something tad heavier and pick up is not good then I use two grips or will make a counter balance etc because I for me to send back is very costly as I'm in North America.
Also 1 ounce is so minimal that it is hardly noticeable, if I'm not mistaken a regular chevron grip weighs 2 ounces.
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I usually choose a bat on pick up. Like someone said above it also depends the type of player you are and hence what shape of bat you use. So for me depending on where the middle is I would choose a weight. Generally it would range from 2.6 - 2.12(maybe more). In the coming season I am looking to experiment with different weights and mid to low middles. Lets see what happens.
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I have to say I choose my bats on dead weight... I say to the fine podshaver 2lbs.9 please.
then the pick up is a bonus. and when I am in a shop I look at the 2.8-2.10. weight range.
the dead weight is hugely important for me.
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I choose on dead weight as i know roughly how the pick up will be due to the desired sweetspot i go for....
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in fact I would go further and say, I have never seen anyone walk into a shop saying... I'd like a 2.15 bat that picks up like a 2.8 please.
only on this forum do I here that kind of talk.
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It's an interesting question, but the last batoff actually had a bat that answered your question.
The GM Icon we used weighed more than 3lb. All of the testers agreed that it picked up really, really well. If you go and watch the videos, you can see that universally, everyone had problems playing the ball properly because they couldn't swing the bat through in time and were late with their shots.
What does this tell us? When you play a shot you use gravity and your muscles to get the bat in the right place. If the dead weight of the bat is too heavy for your mechanical systems to overcome the inertia, you cannot play the ball properly. Even if it picks up really well, you still have to use an amount of force to generate momentum with the bat, so a 3lber that picks up like 2lb10oz still requires the force needed for a 3lb bat to move it in the right direction.
What am I saying? Pick-up is how we feel with the bat. If it doesn't pick up how we like we won't feel comfortable playing our shots. Dead weight affects our ability to move the bat to where we need it. If it is too heavy for us then we will fail at this, and no matter how well it picks up, we won't be able to play properly with it.
For me a range of 2lb9oz to 2lb13oz fits the bill and anything heavier starts to incur a cost with me being late to the ball.
Your weight range of 2lb9oz to 2lb13oz is a reasonable range though Tim I believe
Question regarding the 3lber... Being slow on the ball would be caused by the weight of the bat being lifted on the back lift but what if the bat was already lifted???... Does the weight help with downward speed as we all know heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects???
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in fact I would go further and say, I have never seen anyone walk into a shop saying... I'd like a 2.15 bat that picks up like a 2.8 please.
only on this forum do I here that kind of talk.
So if you get a bat made that comes in at 2lb11oz with excellent pick up what do you do?
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well as a rule of thumb if I can pick the bat up in my top hand only and hold it for over a minute then it should be fine, but the likelihood of the above scenario is that the middle will be too high for me.
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Your weight range of 2lb9oz to 2lb13oz is a reasonable range though Tim I believe
Question regarding the 3lber... Being slow on the ball would be caused by the weight of the bat being lifted on the back lift but what if the bat was already lifted???... Does the weight help with downward speed as we all know heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects???
In answer to your first question, the bat was already lifted. I was still too slow as I still have to move the bat to the ball.
In answer to your second question, I can only assume you have failed every Physics exam that you have ever taken, with a statement like that...
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In answer to your first question, the bat was already lifted. I was still too slow as I still have to move the bat to the ball.
In answer to your second question, I can only assume you have failed every Physics exam that you have ever taken, with a statement like that...
Considering we don't live in a vacuum I thought it was pretty fair...Is the heavier more or less dense as well or more dense
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as we all know heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects???
err - gravity is the same for all objects!!
try dropping a cricket bat and a cricket ball from the same height at the same time - call it a little Tuesday experiment.
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err - gravity is the same for all objects!!
try dropping a cricket bat and a cricket ball from the same height at the same time - call it a little Tuesday experiment.
Does wind resistance not come into the equation Buzz?
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In answer to your first question, the bat was already lifted. I was still too slow as I still have to move the bat to the ball.
In answer to your second question, I can only assume you have failed every Physics exam that you have ever taken, with a statement like that...
Ok so I failed physics...lol...
But what causes the obvious late shot play... If the bat is already raised then surely it should come down at the same rate maybe???...
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Does wind resistance not come into the equation Buzz?
not when the bat is is starting around waist height.
But what causes the obvious late shot play... If the bat is already raised then surely it should come down at the same rate maybe???...
the issue isn't the bat coming down it is being able to control the bat and get it to move in the direction you want it too.
Have a look how late the stig was with the 3lbs Icon on the recent bat test - it was fine with a gentle half volly, but he missed loads of shots with it - because he was late.
It is the first bat in this sequence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EZ5Kej9uJs&list=UUuA9Stqe7YaMXPRLY0I1Z2g&index=13&feature=plcp
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The whole, I have a 2lb 13oz but it picks up like a 2lb 11oz doesn't make sense to me. Does that mean it picks up like a 2lb 11oz which picks up well, or one which picks up like a log?
Pickup and deadweight are a different thing, both of which are important to me when I'm choosing a bat. But deadweight is the first thing I /asklook for in a shop or when ordering from a batmaker direct.
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The whole, I have a 2lb 13oz but it picks up like a 2lb 11oz doesn't make sense to me. Does that mean it picks up like a 2lb 11oz which picks up well, or one which picks up like a log?
Pickup and deadweight are a different thing, both of which are important to me when I'm choosing a bat. But deadweight is the first thing I /asklook for in a shop or when ordering from a batmaker direct.
yeah, I've always been confused by the picks up like XlbOz. Given all bats on here pick up lighter than their deadweight suggests how do people ever do the comparison!
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The whole, I have a 2lb 13oz but it picks up like a 2lb 11oz doesn't make sense to me. Does that mean it picks up like a 2lb 11oz which picks up well, or one which picks up like a log?
Pickup and deadweight are a different thing, both of which are important to me when I'm choosing a bat. But deadweight is the first thing I /asklook for in a shop or when ordering from a batmaker direct.
I do agree Tom but what I see alot on the forum is people ordering bats at say 2lb9oz and they come back at 2lb11oz so sell on or send back, which unless they do pick up like a log, I think is ridiculous as an extra grip can add as much as 2oz's. Now if you weigh the bat its too heavy for you...but the pickup has improved
I think for the average cricketer like us we put far too much importance on 1 or 2 oz's
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Ok so I failed physics...lol...
But what causes the obvious late shot play... If the bat is already raised then surely it should come down at the same rate maybe???...
you are misunderstanding how the system works. Gravity affects all bats equally, but gravity on its own is not enough to get your bat to the ball in time to hit it where you want it. To do this you need gravity + additional force. The additional force is you.
From the physics, Force = mass x acceleration.
Force is the same for all the bats you as an individual will use as you have a fintie amount of it, therefore the two things that could vary are the mass of the bat or the acceleration of the bat in the direction you apply the force. For a given force, the greater the mass, the slower the acceleration will be and therefore the more time it will take to get the bat to the right place.
Gravity is a constant, so although it helps, you still need more force for a heavier bat.
Does wind resistance not come into the equation Buzz?
And not when the two objects you are comparing have the same surface area and therefore will suffer the same wind resistance... as in two bats of different weights.
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yes you are probably right - but one or two ounces can become 3 or 4 relatively easily and that will have an impact on your range of shots and getting tennis elbow... if the bat is too heavy.
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you are misunderstanding how the system works. Gravity affects all bats equally, but gravity on its own is not enough to get your bat to the ball in time to hit it where you want it. To do this you need gravity + additional force. The additional force is you.
From the physics, Force = mass x acceleration.
Force is the same for all the bats you as an individual will use as you have a fintie amount of it, therefore the two things that could vary are the mass of the bat or the acceleration of the bat in the direction you apply the force. For a given force, the greater the mass, the slower the acceleration will be and therefore the more time it will take to get the bat to the right place.
Gravity is a constant, so although it helps, you still need more force for a heavier bat.
And not when the two objects you are comparing have the same surface area and therefore will suffer the same wind resistance... as in two bats of different weights.
So... Would a counter balance on the handle for instance have any effect ?
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So... Would a counter balance on the handle for instance have any effect ?
yes it would make the bat even heavier.
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yes it would make the bat even heavier.
Extremely good observation Buzz well done.... 1 Gold Star
I have noticed alot of players here in Australia are gripping the bat right down the bottom of the handle with hands very close together... Would using this grip with addition to a counter balance on the handle help using bigger, heavier bats that guys seem to be using more these days... The hands in this setup would act a little like a fulcrum with the bat being the lever
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You need to take into account mass moment of inertia e.g. the period of a pendulum
If the bat is end weighted it will swing faster but feel heavier pickup wise. It is horse for courses, "Ugly Betty" was specifically designed for this when it was done back in March 2009.
1-2oz shouldn't make a huge amount of difference but that really depends on where, how you bat, the speeds you face and also the shape of your bat [with regards to volume distribution]
What people forget is that pickup is a small % of your whole bat swing, I cant think of many that look at the whole thing and try to understand it.... []
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I have found that suitability largely depends of the standard of cricket played.
Against real quick bowlers it is essential to have a bat that you can wield with relative ease, as reaction times are much less.
I believe this is why big guys like Flintoff and Pietersen used/use bats around 2.8. Obviously they could use much heavier bats as they are built like brick (No Swearing Please) houses but against the sort of bowlers they faced the ability to react in time is more important.
I use a bat currently that is bit too heavy for me, but im not playing at a very high standard so find it doesnt really matter. If you can just get on the front foot to drive and even pull bowlers then it will be fine, in this case using a slightly heavier bat can even help. Ive found that on occasions ive faced a bowler who can test me out,either through pace or movement, that the bat then feels to heavy for me.
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It's what makes you feel confident as look at kp usually 2lb10 then same size guy gayle uses 3lb2 in no small part to the way they play ie gayle very still smooth swing but kp swings the bat round a lot which he could not do with a 3lb monster
Then there is the enigma that is sachin 5ft nothing not hugely built (but apparently wrists like most peoples biceps) and used a 3lb bat most of his career
The mentality of it is a major factor as if you percieve a bat to be heavy because of an extra oz it will feel like a log
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not when the bat is is starting around waist height.
the issue isn't the bat coming down it is being able to control the bat and get it to move in the direction you want it too.
Have a look how late the stig was with the 3lbs Icon on the recent bat test - it was fine with a gentle half volly, but he missed loads of shots with it - because he was late.
It is the first bat in this sequence
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EZ5Kej9uJs&list=UUuA9Stqe7YaMXPRLY0I1Z2g&index=13&feature=plcp[/url]
I think this is fairly subjective though........ I usually use around 2'14, but was given a pair of 2'9 mongoose as a gift..... It took me about 4 net sessions to middle anything. Doesn't mean it was too light for me, now I can use it with much more control than my old bats. I've also seen people buy huge heavy bats and struggle at first, but then improve. It's all about knowing the bat well enough to let instinct play the shot.
I really think people should experiment with all weights to work out what's for them, and I don't mean playing for 10 or 15 balls.
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I think it's quite easy to adjust, 4 or 5 months ago I used a 2lb 7oz bat and found anything over 2lb 9oz cumbersome, but now by using a heavier bat for a couple of net sessions, I find using a lighter bat hard and matchsticky.
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It's all about muscle memory. Just like playing guitar when you first start your fingers don't go where you want them too and you are slow at changing chords but after awhile muscle memory kicks in and it happens naturally
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Also personal style as someone mentioned before. I don't know what weight Lara used, but with a backlift like his I imagine he used a relatively light bat. A short backlift punch style batter could use heavier bats.
I would love to see how hard Robin Smith in his prime would hit a cut with today's bats, the point fielder would need to wear a box.