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Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Buzz on April 10, 2012, 09:00:20 AM

Title: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Buzz on April 10, 2012, 09:00:20 AM
This is in the Telegraph today - although it doesn't say how the legislation would take place due to a lack of understanding about the bat making process - but I suspect it may have to be something to do with bat pressing...

I am really keen to hear the views of those who make bats on this topic:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/twenty20/ipl/9194371/Danger-ahead-as-batsmen-cut-loose-with-lethal-weapons.html
Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons

It is time to legislate. Before someone is seriously injured, not afterwards. The cricket ball is being hit ever harder, by increasingly powerful batsmen with increasingly powerful bats, and somebody soon will be on the receiving end, perhaps fatally.
It could be the umpire. “We’ve been talking about how to protect yourself,” Rob Bailey said, “especially when you are standing up to the stumps for a spinner.” John Steele, another county stalwart turned first-class umpire, says he wears a box – for umpiring.
It could be the bowler who gets badly hurt, especially if he drops his head after delivery. Mark Robinson, Sussex’s coach, was hit flush on the head when bowling for Northamptonshire and Glamorgan’s Matthew Maynard came down the pitch, reducing Robinson’s reaction time.
In the Indian Premier League yesterday, Johan Botha was bowling his off-spin for Rajasthan Royals and Manoj Tiwary was batting for Kolkata Knight Riders. It wasn’t a particularly strong straight-drive – it did not go for four, let alone six – but Botha just ducked and put his hands up in self-defence.
Botha is fairly fit, not like some of the IPL pensioners. A South African, he has just been appointed captain of South Australia, so he is no has-been. And if he hasn’t time to react, what chance does a senior umpire have to leap out of the ball’s path?
But one of the worst injuries caused so far by a batsman was to a non-striker. Jos Buttler was batting for Somerset in the Champions League T20 last autumn in India when he launched a ball from James Franklin straight at his partner, Craig Kieswetter, backing up. The non-striker was struck decidedly hard.
Kieswetter takes up the story. “It hit me on the
forearm and was about two inches from shattering my elbow. I had a bruise for a month and felt it throughout the England one-day series [against India that followed] — and I stopped the ball going for four.”
Kieswetter distinguishes between various forms of backing up and therefore the degree of risk in being hit by a return drive. “We needed about 26 off three overs and had decided to run for everything except byes to the keeper.” Obviously on a slow day in a championship game, the non-striker does not back up so far.
As you cannot stop batsmen doing weights in the gym all winter, the way to reduce the danger is to legislate and reduce the bat’s power.
It was in 1771 that the width of the bat was limited to 4¼in. In 1835 the length of the bat was limited to 38in. MCC would have made it a nice and sensible progression if in the 1900s they had legislated on the bat’s thickness. But their lawmakers were dormant, although the eminent former cricket correspondent of The Times, John Woodcock, lobbied hard when he was an MCC committee man.
The bat’s traditional thickness was between the size of a fingernail and a thumbnail. Anything thicker and a bat would become too heavy and unwieldy.
Bats now can be thicker than 1½in at the edge, and up to 2½in thick in the middle. Yet very few of today’s bats weigh as much as 3lb. There is so much wood in them, and they can break more easily, but they are barely heavier than the traditional blade.
It would be good for the aesthetics of the game – as well as the health of umpire, non-striker and bowler – if the bat’s thickness were limited to one inch.
It gets boring in Twenty20 when every other ball disappears; and it is wrong for a batsman to get four runs for a forward push, without any follow-through. Variety is being lost as the drive, including the thick edge for six, becomes too prevalent, while the late cut has disappeared.
On motorways we are told to keep two chevrons apart. When a batman comes down the pitch and hits the ball back faster than 70mph, in a T20 game under dodgy lights, he is less than a chevron away. It’s time for legislators to react, to give others time to react.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: PedalsMcgrew on April 10, 2012, 09:11:47 AM
hmmmm interesting!

If they were to limit the thickness of bats then surely batmakers would just find other ways of increasing performance though? I guess we'd all end up using scoops......! 

Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Buzz on April 10, 2012, 09:14:23 AM
I think there will have to be a moisture content reading level or some form of pressing restrictions - I am not sure a size measure will work.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: roco on April 10, 2012, 09:17:24 AM
It won't happen as too much money invested in making bats bigger for less weight

I agree with Luke bat makers will find another way of increasing performance as if the limit edge size spine heights could be fun
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: langer17 on April 10, 2012, 09:18:46 AM
Weight also plays a part in how far the ball goes. Also, making bats have smaller edges, and presumably lighter, would mean the batsmen could swing harder and the ball would come off the same, if not faster.

I disagree with the ball going for 4 with a push, as that is just excellent timing in most cases.

I do agree with what they are saying to a certain extent, as edging a ball that goes for 6 is no good.

Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: mdl_1979 on April 10, 2012, 09:20:28 AM
I have less of a problem with the size of the bats than I do with the size of the boundaries.  As soon as a limited overs game (whether 50 overs or 20 overs) takes place at a ground they immediately bring the boundaries in 10m.  Mishits should not be going for 6.  It should take a well-placed and extremely well struck shot to go for 6.

One also has to factor in the amount of time players spend on strength and conditioning these days.  Your average pro is stronger now than their counterpart 20+ years ago.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: tim2000s on April 10, 2012, 09:28:53 AM
Have to agree with mdl. Boundaries for t20 should be the same as county championship, ie the largest the ground will accommodate. This does affect the fact that spectators want to see sixes though...
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Canners on April 10, 2012, 09:46:47 AM
If its the damage that the ball can cause is the problem, then surely they should look at redesigning the cricket ball ? And leave our glorious bats alone
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Buzz on April 10, 2012, 09:53:43 AM
or make those mean bowlers wear lots of protection to stop them bowling anything other than 65mph half vollies and long hops??!!
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: roco on April 10, 2012, 09:55:54 AM
Maybe bowl in helmets? No searing bouncers then

Umps wear hockey goal keeper kits all good then
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Canners on April 10, 2012, 10:02:49 AM
I think they should make the bowlers bowl underarm, the bowlers are obviously generating to much speed in the first place
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Kulli on April 10, 2012, 10:05:32 AM
If its the damage that the ball can cause is the problem, then surely they should look at redesigning the cricket ball ? And leave our glorious bats alone
Or do away with the umpires!
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Tom on April 10, 2012, 10:19:20 AM
The only way to do this properly is to put a performance level restriction on the bats. The MCC looked at doing this in 2008 and opted not to, instead making the change to handle make up.

The game hasn't changed much since then. In fact run rates have decreased.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Canners on April 10, 2012, 10:24:26 AM
Wasn't t20 cricket introduced to give cricket a sexier new image of faster more brutal cricket? By reducing the performance of bats won't this have a detrimental affect on cricket as a whole?

Maybe they will make everyone use Kashmir planks?
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: tim2000s on April 10, 2012, 10:26:20 AM
The only way to do this properly is to put a performance level restriction on the bats. The MCC looked at doing this in 2008 and opted not to, instead making the change to handle make up.
How would they go about measuring it?
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: langer17 on April 10, 2012, 10:26:29 AM
The only way to do this properly is to put a performance level restriction on the bats. The MCC looked at doing this in 2008 and opted not to, instead making the change to handle make up.

The game hasn't changed much since then. In fact run rates have decreased.

That's because they are actually leaving grass on the pitch now, so it's not that light brown flat track that had been used for so long.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Number4 on April 10, 2012, 10:26:41 AM
Let's just play futuristic "Death Cricket"
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Canners on April 10, 2012, 10:39:05 AM
How would they go about measuring it?

Knowing that may be the key to grading bats correctly :)
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: norbs on April 10, 2012, 10:51:54 AM
How would they go about measuring it?

Probably something like:


v1 & v2 inbound and outbound ball speeds

e=v1/v2(1+r)+r

where

r = m[1/m+(L-BP-z)sqrd/I-W(BP-6)sqrd]
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Johnny on April 10, 2012, 11:23:43 AM
How would they go about measuring it?

I think they'd wait until their better halves are going away for a few days, then they'd construct a jig using a workmate. Using a trapdoor device they could drop a ball-bearing onto the face of the bat, and then using film, measure how high the ball-bearing bounces... :D :D :D
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Number4 on April 10, 2012, 11:26:43 AM
2 x Like ^^^^^
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: tim2000s on April 10, 2012, 11:32:41 AM
Cheeky so and so.....  ;)
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: richthekeeper on April 10, 2012, 11:49:38 AM
the level of performance and explosiveness of cricket is what sets great fielders apart from merely good ones!
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Canners on April 10, 2012, 11:51:08 AM
I think they'd wait until their better halves are going away for a few days, then they'd construct a jig using a workmate. Using a trapdoor device they could drop a ball-bearing onto the face of the bat, and then using film, measure how high the ball-bearing bounces... :D :D :D

Come on mate no one would ever be that sad ;)
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: bigbenh99 on April 10, 2012, 12:51:25 PM
If its the damage that the ball can cause is the problem, then surely they should look at redesigning the cricket ball ? And leave our glorious bats alone

Maybe the problem isn't the make up of the ball, but the colour. They should make it more visible, WITH FIRE!
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: AllOutCricket on April 10, 2012, 01:10:57 PM
Do you think he's right that non-strikers and umpires are in danger from modern brutal blades?

If there's no limit, how thick do you think we'll see bats getting!?
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Buzz on April 10, 2012, 01:23:09 PM
Do you think he's right that non-strikers and umpires are in danger from modern brutal blades?

If there's no limit, how thick do you think we'll see bats getting!?
Not really - I think it is rubish - I have seen an umpire hit only once in 24 years of playing cricket - I have seen spectators hit far more.
And as for the non strikers - actually I have seen them hit more often, but they are covered in padding as well so should man up!
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: tim2000s on April 10, 2012, 01:44:26 PM
Not really - I think it is rubish - I have seen an umpire hit only once in 24 years of playing cricket - I have seen spectators hit far more.
And as for the non strikers - actually I have seen them hit more often, but they are covered in padding as well so should man up!
The only time I've seen an umpire hit was when I was at school before these monster bats came into play, and he was at square leg. Served him right - he should've been paying more attention.

Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: mdl_1979 on April 10, 2012, 02:27:05 PM
Not really - I think it is rubish - I have seen an umpire hit only once in 24 years of playing cricket - I have seen spectators hit far more.
And as for the non strikers - actually I have seen them hit more often, but they are covered in padding as well so should man up!

Spot on - I have very rarely seen an umpire hit, and if the non-striker gets hit occasionally, so be it.  Like I say, I do have an issue with shorter boundaries, but only that I don't like seeing mishits go for 6.  I don't mind good shots being rewarded, or even brutish strength being rewarded, but too often these days, batsmen can get away with less than a clean strike.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Canners on April 10, 2012, 02:33:25 PM

ive manged to hit an umpire on the bonce before, i was playing a colts game and my dad got his mate to umpire . i swept one, itglanced his head and still went for 6 he didnt appreciate me rolling around the floor laughing

i did get hit as a non striker backing up last year in a t20 game, those orange balls are bloody hard you know
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Pitbull on April 10, 2012, 02:34:48 PM
Very interesting topic.  Saw Bravo 'hit' a straight 6 off a leading edge the other day in the IPL, shows how much wood is in bats these days. But like everyone has said I have never seen an umpire ever get hit by a batsman.

Just found the video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNEbzXTkW60
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: ajm90 on April 10, 2012, 02:51:06 PM
I knocked out a bowler two years ago but that's the only time i've ever seen a bowler or umpire hit.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: langer17 on April 10, 2012, 03:08:20 PM
Very interesting topic.  Saw Bravo 'hit' a straight 6 off a leading edge the other day in the IPL, shows how much wood is in bats these days. But like everyone has said I have never seen an umpire ever get hit by a batsman.

Just found the video on youtube [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNEbzXTkW60[/url]


That's a little ridiculous, but the ball can feel pretty good when it hits the edge directly.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: tim2000s on April 10, 2012, 03:13:32 PM
I knocked out a bowler two years ago but that's the only time i've ever seen a bowler or umpire hit.
The first thought that sprang to mind was "But did you use your bat?".....
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: langer17 on April 10, 2012, 03:19:52 PM
This comes to mind when talking about bowlers being hit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxJwk2QWGLk

Don't watch if eating.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Canners on April 10, 2012, 03:25:48 PM
This comes to mind when talking about bowlers being hit:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxJwk2QWGLk[/url]


OUCH..... that has put me off my lunch
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: langer17 on April 10, 2012, 03:32:31 PM
OUCH..... that has put me off my lunch

My bad. On another note, the bloke couldn't eat solid food for 2 months after that, had to pretty much eat through a straw.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: ajm90 on April 10, 2012, 03:33:50 PM
The first thought that sprang to mind was "But did you use your bat?".....

yes  ;) bowler followed through a long way down the pitch whilst bowling a slow full toss straight into the middle of my bat, shame really probably stopped it going for six  :D
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: ajm90 on April 10, 2012, 03:36:41 PM
This comes to mind when talking about bowlers being hit:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxJwk2QWGLk[/url]

Don't watch if eating.


Thats put me off bowling this season.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on April 10, 2012, 09:58:53 PM
Do you think he's right that non-strikers and umpires are in danger from modern brutal blades?

If there's no limit, how thick do you think we'll see bats getting!?

We had a phone all from the head of the ECB umpires asking if we could offer helmets for the umpires to wear if it came to it. Reaction time must be harder when concentrating on so many other things.

Iv seen plenty of umpires and non striking batsmen hit by a straight drive before so it's a real risk.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: shazz on April 11, 2012, 09:48:44 AM
I completely disagree with all of that, the late cut is thriving with 3rd man inside the circle. and 20/20 isn't the only form of cricket that is thriving.
Title: Re: Danger ahead as batsmen cut loose with lethal weapons
Post by: Bez013 on April 15, 2012, 11:46:06 AM
I'm not sure it is a massive issue, yes there may be a higher proportion of 'powerful' batsmen now and bats are supposedly getting better so there is likely to be more danger but how many games of pro-cricket take place around the world each year and how often does a bowler/non-striker/umpire get hit, let alone at the amatuer level.

I've hit an umpire at the non-strikers end once in 15 years and that wasn't with what I would call a massive modern bat, it was a bit of a skimmer that just cleared the stumps....he was able to move enough to make it a glancing blow but he didn't move immediately.

Basically watch the ball at all times!