Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: norbs on September 19, 2012, 09:11:27 AM
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While I'm causing controversies pressing is it really the dark art that makes a bat ping.... or is it the willow and the profile that does the brunt of the work?
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Why don't you tell us Norbs.....we know you want to..... :D :D :D
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The culmination of all parts... even the relationship between bat maker and the client.
Pressing is an art form to eek out extra from something that would naturally have some decent properties... a skilled worker turns good into great.
I can press a bat Norbs its just that you'd do it better... experience, knowledge count for a hell of a lot.
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Not sure you can turn poor willow into great willow though just by pressing
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Not sure you can turn poor willow into great willow though just by pressing
No one said you can polish a turd :o ;)
But i'd put money on a decent bat maker getting the best from it and turning it into something that gets bought.
Can you see SS or SG throwing away willow??? I think not
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how do you know how much pressure to put on a bat in a press?
Throwing away willow :o I'll take it lol
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I'm sure there has been plenty of £50 planks sold by many bat makers.
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The thing is do get more gain from the shape and willow then the pressing
I'm veering toward the shape and willow nowadays...
The worse thing you can do to a piece of willow is over press it
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Pressed by streaky
Made by machine
I guess I miss this controversy
My theory about pressing shape and pie crust theory all come from blogs by andy
The willow needs to be understood as a unique enterty and pressed and shaped by the craftsman who understands the natures of the willow and what is best for that peice and the shape is crafted to get the best to suit th willow type and all done under the watchful eye of a master bat maker
In laymans terms each bit needs pressing and shaping differently to get the best out of it
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procricket is it the shape and willow that makes your bat what it is for you or the pressing
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Pressed by streaky
Made by machine
I guess I miss this controversy
And the thing is it'll all be regurgitated again in 12 - 18 months ;-)
Same old, same old! :D
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I don't think it has a great deal to do with shape... I have had bats with completely different shapes that have been guns... Willow definitely.... Pressing... Probably... Don't know enough about pressing to be honest as its all secret bat makers business
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For a user it is the shape and willow
People talk about pressing on here and I understand theory but like most do not understand the reality
If you lined 10 bats up you could guess the shapes of most but even if we used would not have a clue about pressing and who by I wouldnt
I care about consistency within the brand and bats that is my only issue
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The worse thing you can do to a piece of willow is over press it
Spot on... :)
You can handle, shape a nice dry cleft and from experience it'll go pretty well.... it wont last very long but plays ok with not pressing other than pulled over steel bars by hand. But press it to death and its as good as table leg!
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I'm not sure whether or not pressing would improve the performance or not, however it would certainly improve the durability of the blade by compressing the fibres, just like how we do it when we knock it in... Knocking in just acts like another form of manual pressing
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I was under the impression that knocking in did the opposite to pressing?
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Pie crust andy it all about the crust
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Crap I just wrote a whole thing about this and I got logged out...
Give me a few mins I'll give you some details to help you along with this
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The companies who press their own bats will say one thing and the guys who don't will say another! Who's right? Surely the question is, 'Is there only one way for a bat to be pressed correctly?' If the answer is yes then the shaping counts for everything. Because no matter who is pressing the bat they are striving for exactly the same outcome. If the answer is no and the differing ways of pressing the blade impart different characteristics on it then the shaping surely only makes up a part of the end performance?
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if pressing wasnt that important then why is the method etc not openly discussed in detail. obviously discussions are had regarding the idea of pressing and how it works but not in much detail. alot of brands keep this close to them so to not loose any advantage. dont get me wrong. i dont think its the only factor but it must play some part. a well pressed bat can be ruined by shaping same as a badly pressed rock hard bat wont get any better with perfect shaping. i think the point is they work together. when one or the other is done poorly it affects performance, longevity etc. to have a great bat you must have both done well. to have an average or poor bat then either the pressing or the shaping has fallen down
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Ok here goes again... I haven't done one of these question things for years :D
Firstly the Dark Art of pressing
Imagine a drum with a tight thin skin on it and a drum with a thicker skin on it.... Now get a drum stick and hit them, the thin skin will be more responsive that the thicker skin...
Now lets relate that to willow... Willows is made up of loads vessels lying on top of each other and the grain which is the bark from the end year growth.
Ok lets look at this as a box of straws lying on the table, the straws are now the sapwood and stick something hard with no holes in there for the grain.
Now all you need to do press with enough pressure to compress the top bit and take into account the grain is harder to press that then sapwood [we know this from our box of straws] to get the thin drum skin layer. We are after the thin drum skin layer aren't we.... [This is why is better to get hold of someone that takes this in account as opposed to running all the willow through on a same pressure run]
Ok brillant pressing is king I hear you say!!!!!
Well Now you shape a bat, it looks good, smells good and has the biggest edges in the world [I added that bit in for my amusement] The middle looks like it is in the right place.... Then you swing it, when this happens things change stuff due to physics makes that place where all the wood is just out of sync with where it should be. This is down to the balance and your swing speed so the profile is actually doing something to aid performance....
Then you get the collision with the ball, the way the bat reacts to that collision is to do with the willow not just pressing here but you've got that piece of willows natural frequencies and your man made stuff to take into account, also the profile shape is involved here and the handle!
So all of a sudden the profile shape and willow is doing quite a lot isnt it!
It is a very good question really... opinions comments now you maybe know a bit more?
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Please note I modified my last post to make more sense... my English may still be shocking though
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Just like to say that is a great description of pressing norbs... Well done
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interesting science!
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Where is Pinson he would has something to say
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interesting science!
If you look at willow as a fibre reinforced composite you will go a long way to understanding how to deal with it a lot better
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If you look at willow as a fibre reinforced composite you will go a long way to understanding how to deal with it a lot better
Gotcha - as an aside, how do you ensure that the pressure you applied only compresses the top layer of the willow rather than the whole thickness of the bat?
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Gotcha - as an aside, how do you ensure that the pressure you applied only compresses the top layer of the willow rather than the whole thickness of the bat?
You'd think you need a microscope right.... It is one of the experience things you can tell from the cleft how the fibres are when you pick it up based on the weight and how it is on when you plane it to size.
Doesn't always work out and there is nothing worse then hearing the pop of a pressing crack....
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Anyways we digress....
So pressing or willow and profile which one makes the biggest difference?
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Probably neither - it's the bloke who is wielding it! :D
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Anyways we digress....
So pressing or willow and profile which one makes the biggest difference?
Neither, both depend on the other for ultimate performance :D
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what's the benefits of pressing the top half of the bat less than the bottom ie. salix
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i think it is all of the pressing pressing, willow & shape that make a good bat...no offence to GM lovers but I find their bats are not to my liking, shapes are/were good but the feel off the bat when you hit a ball is just not as good, my Hades that I have been critical of to some extent still plays better than the top end GM bats i have here (not the player editions, as I have never used them)...
on the other hand smaller brands like h4l, saf & rpc are pressed differently/individually even though the shapes might be similar to others brands, exception saf, they play better...
Take an off the shelf GM bat for example then get a custom/replica made bat from SAF, RPC or H4L to name a few that is the exact same profile as GM and then tell me that they play exactly the same... I would think the custom/replica made bat would be better...so you can also add bat maker to the list...
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Lovely discussion... And very interesting having watched you make one for me and having now had a go myself. In both cases, the wood was pressed by experts in the field. One by you and one by Matt H4L. You shaped one with me there and positioned and balanced the bat to perfection, positioning the sweet spot to within a micron. Mine? Well the sweetspot is roughly in the right place, but the shaping isn't anywhere near as well managed and the vibrational control is noticably different away from the sweetspot.
What do they both have in common? That when people use them they say of both "Wow, what a great sound!" and are impressed with the performance. I have made a sledgehammer, where you have made a surgical hammer, but both work. But I'm rambling.
I think that with an expertly pressed willow lump, as per Norbs comments, anyone can shape a bat, but not everyone can make a good one!
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Ok here goes again... I haven't done one of these question things for years :D
Firstly the Dark Art of pressing
Imagine a drum with a tight thin skin on it and a drum with a thicker skin on it.... Now get a drum stick and hit them, the thin skin will be more responsive that the thicker skin...
Now lets relate that to willow... Willows is made up of loads vessels lying on top of each other and the grain which is the bark from the end year growth.
Ok lets look at this as a box of straws lying on the table, the straws are now the sapwood and stick something hard with no holes in there for the grain.
Now all you need to do press with enough pressure to compress the top bit and take into account the grain is harder to press that then sapwood [we know this from our box of straws] to get the thin drum skin layer. We are after the thin drum skin layer aren't we.... [This is why is better to get hold of someone that takes this in account as opposed to running all the willow through on a same pressure run]
Ok brillant pressing is king I hear you say!!!!!
Well Now you shape a bat, it looks good, smells good and has the biggest edges in the world [I added that bit in for my amusement] The middle looks like it is in the right place.... Then you swing it, when this happens things change stuff due to physics makes that place where all the wood is just out of sync with where it should be. This is down to the balance and your swing speed so the profile is actually doing something to aid performance....
Then you get the collision with the ball, the way the bat reacts to that collision is to do with the willow not just pressing here but you've got that piece of willows natural frequencies and your man made stuff to take into account, also the profile shape is involved here and the handle!
So all of a sudden the profile shape and willow is doing quite a lot isnt it!
It is a very good question really... opinions comments now you maybe know a bit more?
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So you have a drum and hit it with a stick and the stick bounces off at a certain speed. What happens then if you hit it with a much larger heavier stick? does it react the same? Think ball/bat speed.
If you have a bat in hand and bounce a new ball on it, which is how most people judge, what possible relation does that have to whacking an 80mph delivery with 70mph bat speed.
If you have uniform press the full length of a cleft as in dark age press would it not give greater unit strength? less fractured shoulders/toes etc.
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Just a quick one Mr Norbs, We had a player sponsored by a major brand in with two bats with small hair line cracks in the back of them. Both bats were unused and had never seen a ball in anger he just bounced one of the top surface etc. You could hardly see the hair line cracks as when they were polished it covered them up well. The manufacturer sent out two replacements to this sponsored player and he returned the other two. But what would make a bat crack like this on the back when the face was pressed etc or is it a common thing that is picked up normally in the manufacturing process?
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So you have a drum and hit it with a stick and the stick bounces off at a certain speed. What happens then if you hit it with a much larger heavier stick? does it react the same? Think ball/bat speed.
If you have a bat in hand and bounce a new ball on it, which is how most people judge, what possible relation does that have to whacking an 80mph delivery with 70mph bat speed.
If you have uniform press the full length of a cleft as in dark age press would it not give greater unit strength? less fractured shoulders/toes etc.
Sorry I dont understand what you are saying...
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Andy you answering questions again
do you agree that 99 per cent on this forum do not give a bat time to see if it well pressed or not due to changing there bat when it does not score them the runs
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As a minor revelation I've had any questions off topic can I please refer you to your bat maker...
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i think it is all of the pressing pressing, willow & shape that make a good bat...no offence to GM lovers but I find their bats are not to my liking, shapes are/were good but the feel off the bat when you hit a ball is just not as good, my Hades that I have been critical of to some extent still plays better than the top end GM bats i have here (not the player editions, as I have never used them)...
on the other hand smaller brands like h4l, saf & rpc are pressed differently/individually even though the shapes might be similar to others brands, exception saf, they play better...
Take an off the shelf GM bat for example then get a custom/replica made bat from SAF, RPC or H4L to name a few that is the exact same profile as GM and then tell me that they play exactly the same... I would think the custom/replica made bat would be better...so you can also add bat maker to the list...
Have to disagree, dads GM original LE is an insane bat, genuinely. Admittedly it did take a month or three to play in, but it has been getting better ever since and it is now 1 and a half years old. Ive used a SAF and I'm sorry to say it was nowhere near as pingtastic as the GM. Salix and Newbery likewise. I think the pressing of GM bats is one of the best features, because it's definitely not the price!
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Have to disagree, dads GM original LE is an insane bat, genuinely. Admittedly it did take a month or three to play in, but it has been getting better ever since and it is now 1 and a half years old. Ive used a SAF and I'm sorry to say it was nowhere near as pingtastic as the GM. Salix and Newbery likewise. I think the pressing of GM bats is one of the best features, because it's definitely not the price!
This is interesting, because I've never really had a GM I've liked. I've always found they feel horrible.
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This is interesting, because I've never really had a GM I've liked. I've always found they feel horrible.
I think it was a throw away line mate... Or I assume the Hades will be replaced with another GM model
Hades
BB
Dynadrive
Woodstock custom
Octane f7
Laver ultra
But I can see myself only getting one of these :(
I actually get on quite well with a GM
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So think pressing is key or shape?
I think the pressing, it may take longer than most bats but once it's got going, it really is going better than other bats I've used.
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Agree Tom there I have never had a good gm but then again I have never bought a new one
Problem with bigger brands less attention to detail to a degree
Every brand has good in and bad ins though
Yes absolutely right, we are talking about a piece of wood afterall and that hasn't been under a microscope before it leaves... but it does leave in good faith
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I think it was a throw away line mate... Or I assume the Hades will be replaced with another GM model
I actually get on quite well with a GM
It wasn't really a throw away line, that is my opinion. The reason I put hades on that list is because of all the great reviews on here and the attention to deatil and value for money. I put the hades and not any other SAF model beacuse the pressing is different to other models, like the one I have used. Notice how Salix and Newbery aren't on that list.
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It wasn't really a throw away line, that is my opinion. The reason I put hades on that list is because of all the great reviews on here and the attention to deatil and value for money. I put the hades and not any other SAF model beacuse the pressing is different to other models, like the one I have used. Notice how Salix and Newbery aren't on that list.
Which model mate?
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actually scrap that off topic on my own topic sorry
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Which model mate?
A team mates one with the old clear Erus stickers has a sticker on the side with no. 0136 or a number like that.
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My GM Icon+ goes pretty well, probably as good as any bat I've used. Think it's just bad luck if you haven't had a good GM, much the same as any other big brand.
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How long are people allowing for the pressing to come into its own
I bought 26 bats last year and my main match bat is 5 years old
I kept only 2 others so I guess all them were crap and pressed badly
I doubt that by the way
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Ah the Erus, the good old days....
I liked that shape, not to everyones taste as you have noticed but nonetheless I liked it
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So these bats that are taking time to come to life....
How many grains are they?
Do they look big or small for the weight?
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My main bats including the 5 year old laver had 10 grains like my current b3 and my chase bats.
The laver took 6 months to come to life and the chase took as soon as I got it but is already showing wear after 3 months
Iam no maker just a user and to me the grains are secondary in any performance if not at all the pressing is key and if that is done with grains in mind a different press then I guess that is why my 3 main bats all have different property's to start but all end as good the same
I had 2 other lavers which felt different to the private bin and I got rid even though they were asphetcally great but lacked something
One bat this year I scored 80 and next day asked for my money back because if the bat was any good I would have scored 150
We are all after a quick fix we do not let a bat mature and reach its peak
For me there too much cloak and dagger I would love a no holds bar thread post the good bad the ugly about good and bad bats
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In my experience, if the balance is wrong for your individual style, you are (No Swearing Please) either way.
For me, shape, balance is the most important factor, they make the bat useable, the better (better as distinct from more) pressed it is, determines both the time (if any) it takes to play it in, and the longevity of its peak.
I guess to answer the very interesting question, it is important.... But no more important than other variables, so too does it depend on the specific circumstances of the user.
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Your blaming a bat for 70 runs difference? Ive never heard a bat be that responsible for anything!
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Yes Iam experience told me so I got a very good 80 but I found middling the ball and only getting 2 when it should have been 4.
As a touch player I rely on a decent bat to get the ball off the square the bat I used that day I never used again a couple of decent iPl players took a look at the bat and said it was a good looker but a plank. Enough said for me
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Yes Iam experience told me so I got a very good 80 but I found middling the ball and only getting 2 when it should have been 4.
I reckon it was just good bowling Dave ;)
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Ryan got an IPL player out with a waist high full toss this season, lollypoped it 10 yards to midwicket. What do they know ;)
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Well 1200 runs in 15 games went through 6 bats but were digressing
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Have to disagree, dads GM original LE is an insane bat, genuinely. Admittedly it did take a month or three to play in, but it has been getting better ever since and it is now 1 and a half years old. Ive used a SAF and I'm sorry to say it was nowhere near as pingtastic as the GM. Salix and Newbery likewise. I think the pressing of GM bats is one of the best features, because it's definitely not the price!
Thing is there will always be exceptions to the rule, I am not saying GM bats are crap all I am saying is you might find better playing bats more consistently with someone like Saf than GM, I say this in comparison. Similarly you could also get a plank from Saf..there is always exceptions. Your experience with GM has been good so thats great, mine has been mediocre, sometimes its also luck of the draw...
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My understanding is Gm press all their bats uniformly, where as the likes of newbery press each bat individually dependant on the cleft......
maybe someone can confirm
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that was also my understanding, but doesn't one of the GM guys post on here?