Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: Ryan on November 17, 2012, 03:59:05 PM
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Ok, we all know enjoy a good challenge and having a little spare time today so simmy and I decided to have a bash at making a laminate out of one of his bats.
First step was to cut out the handle, a new handle would be fitted once the face had been laminated.
Second step was to decide how much wood to remove from the face, obviously this would vary up the blade due to the bow in the blade. Once we had that one figured out I had to set the bandsaw then make the cut.
Third step gluing, not knowing what type of glues generally used we both decided on using PVA as animal glue would be too thick and create a bigger seam/ join.
Fourth step clamping, I've used off cuts of various old grips to clamp mainly because of the difficulty to clamp the back of the bat due to all the concaving etc.
Fifth step re-handle, this will be done tomorrow once the glue on the face has set.
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121117_105422.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121117_105415.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121117_110807.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121117_105716.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121117_111254.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121117_112416.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121117_112428.jpg)
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So you cut the face off the bat then glued it back onto the same bat?
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Correct.
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Soooooooo observant some people lol.
Shoulda used shugoo see what that does :D
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Just I was expecting you to have applied the face from the first bat to a different bat.
Didn't mean to come across in the wrong way. Looks a good bit of work.
Jealous of your worshop.
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What's the benefit of doing this? Obviously there's going to be a very minute amount of wood lost via the cutting which may be filled by the glue but I may be missing the point. Surely you laminate the face of another bat to this one rather than cutting and re gluing the same bit?
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The glue acts as a trampoline between the two faces (or at least thats my understanding of it). Transplanting the face of another bat onto it would have the exact same effect!
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What's the benefit of doing this? Obviously there's going to be a very minute amount of wood lost via the cutting which may be filled by the glue but I may be missing the point. Surely you laminate the face of another bat to this one rather than cutting and re gluing the same bit?
Whats the difference from using a bit of willow from another cleft or using the same section? I would have thought that the glue creates the tramplime effect not the willow.
Anyway, its just a bit of fun and a bit of an experiment. If it works it works, if not then simmys lost a bat lol
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The glue acts as a trampoline between the two faces (or at least thats my understanding of it). Transplanting the face of another bat onto it would have the exact same effect!
That's exactly my understanding, like i said its a little bit of an experiment. So wont know till its all re handled and used in the nets.
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My poor bat....................... cry cry! Looks like you had fun guys. let me know how it performs!
will do :D
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Heres an idea........slice it again and put a wedge on the back. You can really bulk it out that way?
Like a "double wood"? Although in the case it would be a "triple wood".
Could do, just want to see how this turns out first.
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I just always thought from the TK Lams iv seen that the laminated wood is from a different bat due to variations in the number of grains. Not saying that you are wrong. Just that was my understanding.
Will be interesting to see how it performs now.
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I think part of that is to enhance the aesthetics of a bat. It will not necessarily increase the performance as there probably isnt enough wood to enhance the performance (I think). Double wood laminates are a different type of thing entirely, as they consist of 2 bats glued together.
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do you have a link to the original laminate you made, I think that is what MSR needs to see to compare.
nice work Ryan.
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I just always thought from the TK Lams iv seen that the laminated wood is from a different bat due to variations in the number of grains. Not saying that you are wrong. Just that was my understanding.
Will be interesting to see how it performs now.
I believe lamination was first done in England because grade one stocks were low and they decided to "ration" the willow by only using it to face bats therefore making more "grade one" bats.
The grade of willow doesn't really have an affect on performance, just cosmetically. Although i could be wrong.
However, we all know the a tight grain bat will perform from the off where as a wider grain will take longer to play in.
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like ryan said this is just an experiment we have no idea what tk does inside the bat when he takes off the face and glues another one on...
usually the wood is different but i cant see how that has an effect its got to me so magic voodo in the material between the two bits of wood...
i cant see how the massive double wood lams work .. because why not just get a big bit of wood to start with? the glue on them is smack in the middle of the bat so shouldnt have any effect on rebound at all...
this could turn into one big vibrating mess... or it could turn out to be a little bit better... but only time will tell!
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I think you are right about the lamination, in fact you are dpot on........ but I am not too sure about the grain? I really think thats down to personal preference? Even the best players seem to differ in what they think on this subject.
I agree that its all down to personal preference. My match bat has around 10 grains and my net bat about 5 but they both go as well as each other. Its all down to the pressing as far as I'm concerned.
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ryan's original lammy - pics have been removed though
http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=15960.msg256724#msg256724.
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ryan's original lammy - pics have been removed though
[url]http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=15960.msg256724#msg256724.[/url]
I cant seem to find the pictures on my computer :(
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The reason they dont just make massive one piece bats is because the clefts are not bidg enough. Good luck with the experiment hope you hit sixes everywhere!
i disagree have u seen the size of oversizeds clefts u can get from H4l?
they have 75mm spines and 50mm edges
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ive never seen a lam using double wood as big as anything like that! lad at headingley cc has a boom boom lam and its big but only 40mm edges,
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I thought the face was softly pressed then a thin slither of face was added then it was pressed again as one bat. That is probably completely wrong though and it could well be the glue that makes it trampoline although I guess it depends on the glue. I remember reading somewhere certain wood glues when used are actually stronger than the joint they are glueing so when it fails its normally the wood that fails and not the glue.
Good on u for giving it a go. Your certainly showing us a few different things with the lams, grip cone etc. what's next mate?
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I cant seem to find the pictures on my computer :(
samsung mobile you sent them by
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I thought the face was softly pressed then a thin slither of face was added then it was pressed again as one bat.
this is what i thought as well mate! but we shall see its all good fun!
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this is what i thought as well mate! but we shall see its all good fun!
Glad I'm not the only one. Was starting to think I'd made that up. Anything bat making is fun so don't blame Ryan for giving it a go. Hopefully it turns out well, looking forward to seeing it
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samsung mobile you sent them by
I'll check my emails then.
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Glad I'm not the only one. Was starting to think I'd made that up. Anything bat making is fun so don't blame Ryan for giving it a go. Hopefully it turns out well, looking forward to seeing it
I think theres a few factors that contribute to a lam, the glue being just one of those. Lets see what happens.
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TK lams are glued with a certain type of glue from The Germany company Wurth.
Once you glue something with it, the bond can be stretched but will slam back when done so, thus creating the 'double bang', that enhances the 'ping'.
I used that same type of glue in my dissertation at UNO, can't remember which one it is but could probably find out.
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funny thing is not even planned to make a lam.. just took the bats round to show ryan, he was like lets make a lam and took the bat haha
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what would happen if a guy stuck two bats together making a vry asianish lam but ... took the faces of both of them and glued them both on the front ? then youve got a super huge super springy bat :D
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TK lams are glued with a certain type of glue from The Germany company Wurth.
Once you glue something with it, the bond can be stretched but will slam back when done so, thus creating the 'double bang', that enhances the 'ping'.
I used that same type of glue in my dissertation at UNO, can't remember which one it is but could probably find out.
Let me know if you find out, I'm very interested.
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Winzer worth P3 wood glue
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d3 not p3 Matt?
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You should have corked the bat when you opened it up, now that would have been interesting!! Reckon you could get massive bat 3l 5 or so take out the middle fill it with cork put on a laminate face and have it weighing under 3lb with the same edge and swell size
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Knew it had a 3 in it!
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Knew it had a 3 in it!
Cheers Matt!
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so ryan with all the suggestions for a super awesome super illegal bat .... are you going to try it some day put all these suggestions ... together ?
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Winzer worth P3 wood glue
Looks like a standard PVA wood glue to me.
http://www.wurth.co.uk/technical-chemicals1/adhesives/wood-adhesives/d3-pva-wood-glue-1kg
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so ryan with all the suggestions for a super awesome super illegal bat .... are you going to try it some day put all these suggestions ... together ?
No really, just curious in to how a traditional laminate is made. I don't see the point, end of the day its just a glorified "net" bat.
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yeah i understand what you mean , what about a resin based glue ? what do you think would happen cos solidified resin is quite stiff but flexible ?
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Hummmm, I've thought about a contact adhesive. its very elastic but i think the join would be too big. I've also got some animal glue so might try that at some point.
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yeah it would be interesting to have a sort of laminate bat off with different types of glues
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Definitely, about ten bats glued with different types of glue. would be very interesting.
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A thin rubber strip inside between the joins
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would have to be paper thin.. but im not sure tk has any sort of actuall rubber in there id think it was all just glue based rubber stuff
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i'll provide a 3lb 6 plank for you to cork and laminate as an experiment ..... if you are up for it
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would have to be paper thin.. but im not sure tk has any sort of actuall rubber in there id think it was all just glue based rubber stuff
I have seen a few Keeley bro laminates with rubber inserts and yes the cut off was only a quarter of the face but it hate a rubber type sheet in there
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I've got some regupol which is acoustic matting made from cork and rubber but I think it's a little thick. I'll make some enquiries and find a thinner alternative.
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wow a Bro laminate... are they for players in the hood?
I have seen a few Keeley bro laminates with rubber inserts and yes the cut off was only a quarter of the face but it hate a rubber type sheet in there
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The ones I have seen have been scooped out types with the edges left intact and the face cut out was a very thin vanieer with the rubber inserted with a little wood removed then face well section reglueed then a scuff put over.
That way the only joines were on the face and not on the edges at all
Sorry buzz I was referring to the Keeley brothers
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I've got some regupol which is acoustic matting made from cork and rubber but I think it's a little thick. I'll make some enquiries and find a thinner alternative.
drink a few bottles of wine and inset the corks in a honeycomb style .... good or bad idea?
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Only thing with that is you'd have to use a router to hollow the middle out which is a little more time consuming as you'd also have to make a jig for it. Think the different types of glue would be a better idea.
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the top lams i have seen, the grains on the face of the bat dont match the grains on the back.....
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Massive!!
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Would a laminate play better if the thin pressed face was laminated onto a unpressed bat rather than a pressed bat/ cleft ?.
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Great stuff! Cant wait to see the results!
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Not sure, I would have thought pressing a bat actually actually compresses the top 5mm of a blade anyway. So if that's the case then I'd say it wouldn't make any difference.
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Just an update on "Larry", he's had his rubber bands removed and handle glued and set. The glue should have gone off so I'll be able to finish him tonight.
Pictures to follow...
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sweeeeeeeeeet
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Good work Dr Frankenstein
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the top lams i have seen, the grains on the face of the bat dont match the grains on the back.....
MB Malik Bubber Sher:
Face:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd409/dcoy7/Snapbucket/28D5DAD2.jpg)
Back:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd409/dcoy7/Snapbucket/84441B38.jpg)
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i think all that means is that they can cut a g1 cleft into 5-6 faces and mount them onto ugly backs
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could also allow them to over dry the back or take an ugly but light cleft and stick a decent front on it.
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could also allow them to over dry the back or take an ugly but light cleft and stick a decent front on it.
Yes, if you look at the 'back' picture, bottom right of the shot is a massive very ugly knot in it.
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Think I may have come across a different type of glue to try, looks like they'll be a take three in the very near future.
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do we need some more msr net bats? lol
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do we need some more msr net bats? lol
I think so haha.
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guys is the laminate bat off going ahead ? and if so when are the bats getting made ?
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Depends if others have any bats to enter. I'll have about two already in the next week or so. Just sourcing some other glues atm.
Lam should be finished tomorrow.
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You should have like a hedge fund of bats xD I've got an msr coming my way I don't mind I you turned it into a lam and gave it back
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Just have to see how the first one performs. Don't want to ruin your lovely new bat!
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any pics of the finished lammy?
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its not done nick mate didnt have time before indoor so will be done tomorrow i think :)
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maybe i could bring it to the lam bat off as a 'control' for the experiment as they say in GSCE science xD so we know whata normal msr net bats like
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Sounds like a good idea.
I've got a few spare hours tonight so I'll get it finished and posted ASAP.
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Finished "Larry" tonight. Taps up quite well, although i need to have a proper net to see if it responds any better than before.
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121121_195554.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121121_195614.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121121_195620.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121121_195710.jpg)
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How did you decide upon the thickness of the face to be cut off and glued back RK ?. Is the thickness important ?.
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Looks good lets wait and see how it performs
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How did you decide upon the thickness of the face to be cut off and glued back RK ?. Is the thickness important ?.
I just aimed for around 5mm ish in at the thinnest point. I didn't want to cut it too close to the face and risk cutting through. Personally I think it's important to get as close to the face as possible.
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Larry the Lam video review, where Simmy gives it a moo?
Got to be done Ryan! :D
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(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121121_214839.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121121_215100.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121121_215136.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121121_215038.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121121_214944.jpg)
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20121121_215026.jpg)
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Larry the Lam video review, where Simmy gives it a moo?
Got to be done Ryan! :D
Haha, I hate how I sound on camera, so I'll let simmy do the review if he's up for it :D
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Dimentions of the slice look good to me compared to the 3 iv had, forgot to send pics to Simmy the other day but bit tricky as has a toe guard on it anyway.
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Dimentions of the slice look good to me compared to the 3 iv had, forgot to send pics to Simmy the other day but bit tricky as has a toe guard on it anyway.
No worries Thomas, think we're on the right track. Just need to source this other glue now. Once I've got that I'll butcher another bat :D
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i think it taps up slightly better than it did before ... the sound of the bat has deffo changed,
also discovered the vibration on the handle is actually because it has filler in it!
will give this a werl in the nets see how it pings :)
think we are gonna do the other one when we have some diff glue to try
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Finished gluing another one up today. The two bats have been through the same process, although this one has been glued with a different mix. Think Simmy took some pictures...can you add when you get chance mate?
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Only got two mate will ad them later interested to see how this other one turns out
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Who needs a TK Lam when you can get a custom RK Lam and Even pick your own glue...?
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Remember the movie Ghost? Insert Simmy and Fletch instead of Demi Moore & Patrick Swayze. Soooo romantic
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Who needs a TK Lam when you can get a custom RK Lam and Even pick your own glue...?
technically its the same glue just mixed with something else
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technically its the same glue just mixed with something else
Oh no not another Lam mystery :D
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Have you hit a ball in anger with it yet and if so what's your opinion?
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No not yet. Might get chance to have a test tomorrow. If no then probably Tuesday.
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Remember the movie Ghost? Insert Simmy and Fletch instead of Demi Moore & Patrick Swayze. Soooo romantic
Only if he puts his arms round me...don't think my arms see long enough to go round him haha
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oh dear...its going to be a silly day on here I fear! :)
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oh dear...its going to be a silly day on here I fear! :)
Every days a school day, especially if like Simmy you work in a school.
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Every days a school day, especially if like Simmy you work in a school.
Omg don't tell me he is corrupting the minds of the future..haha
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ha thank god no
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Omg don't tell me he is corrupting the minds of the future..haha
Probably "touching" the youth of today is a better way of putting it
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Every days a school day, especially if like Simmy you work in a school.
there is something kinda wrong about that idea!
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(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t118/djsimmy_photos/WP_000100.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t118/djsimmy_photos/WP_000099.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t118/djsimmy_photos/WP_000101.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t118/djsimmy_photos/WP_000102.jpg)
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Now this sort of experimentation looks like a lot of fun!
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got a bit messy!
think there is gonna be larry the lam take 4 soon lol
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Just realised what you made
Flubber!
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Is it me, or was that boron in that labelled pot?
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Borax (a salt of boric acid), which you can add to Polyvinyl alcohol based glues to make flubber, as most kids who liked chemistry probably did at school.
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We didn't make flubber in chemistry... Although we did set one of my friends on fire!
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I'm still fairly sceptical of how much this will improve the performance of the bat.
Don't get me wrong, I love the experiment aspect of it all, but I reckon its more to do with a big over dried big piece of wood on the back as opposed to sticking the face back down with differing types of glue...
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It be interesting to get a brand new bat never touched a ball cut off then knock the fine veneer face as hard as possible to produce the crust then stick the face down back on Infact a old bat knocked in and nearly cracking face stuck onto a new blade
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It be interesting to get a brand new bat never touched a ball cut off then knock the fine veneer face as hard as possible to produce the crust then stick the face down back on Infact a old bat knocked in and nearly cracking face stuck onto a new blade
Or dry only the back section.
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I'm still fairly sceptical of how much this will improve the performance of the bat.
Don't get me wrong, I love the experiment aspect of it all, but I reckon its more to do with a big over dried big piece of wood on the back as opposed to sticking the face back down with differing types of glue...
never used a tk lam vs an big double wood one then?
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Yeah, used a huge CJI Sumo 3lb 8oz monstr before, this goes on sheer size. But alas, no, I've not used a Tk Lam, But have had a Malik Performance lam with the thin veneer face.
Do we know if the TK Lam's are the same bat with the face sliced off then reapplied or is a new face used?
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one 1's i have used had a diff face used but i cant see how this matters?
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Here's some pics of mine as promised Simdog
9 grains on the front 14 on the back...join on the face and shoulder just about visible.
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/tom_ayrtek/FFF3EF8D-04D8-4967-8E96-2C57189DBC76-1666-0000016565823B8E.jpg)(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/tom_ayrtek/3E854C1D-F683-41E2-98FA-0278D369D237-1666-0000016560ABA1FF.jpg)(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/tom_ayrtek/475161ED-E659-4267-9B05-CD43AFC861F1-1666-000001655C588552.jpg)(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/tom_ayrtek/644BFAA8-90F5-4CF8-90A2-F31B4ECED9D1-1666-0000016557089B53.jpg)
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one 1's i have used had a diff face used but i cant see how this matters?
What I'm getting at is I think that the power is mainly from the large back piece, then a good looking face put on it.
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I think the slice needs to be thinner to get the advantage of the glue
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Bring the lam to the Gear Test tomorrow!
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With the advent of MSR bats in this forum. There might be a long queue for RK lam bats soon ;).
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I think the slice needs to be thinner to get the advantage of the glue
That could only be done before pressing. Unfortunately I haven't got a press so this isn't possible.
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Ryan my hands still hurt!
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Ryan my hands still hurt!
Haha, bit of an epic fail I think. I'll replace the handle tomorrow and try again. Think that's what's letting it down.
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How did the net go lads
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Really good, quality set up and a good bunch of lads. Bats were decent too.
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id like to report back on the second lam we made...
but i used it in indoor cricket.. i missed one then chopped on from an inside edge haha
but when tapping it with it, with a ball it feels like a cannon!
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I have a broken TK lam if anyone wants it to chop up and study.
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yes mate!!! send it to ryan!
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I have a broken TK lam if anyone wants it to chop up and study.
Perfect mate. Get in touch!
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You've got mail.
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Replied :D
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Any update on these experiments?
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lam 1 pva ---- middle improved but not any better than a normal bat
lam 2 bouncy ball stuff - performance loads better bat really really pings! i use it in my last batting video
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lam 1 pva ---- middle improved but not any better than a normal bat
lam 2 bouncy ball stuff - performance loads better bat really really pings! i use it in my last batting video
The second one seems to perform better than the first one glued with PVA.
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The second one seems to perform better than the first one glued with PVA.
Is that the one with borax and pva?
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^^^ yes but the mixture is not perfect as the grains on the face of the bat are lifting in the gaps
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how mujch would it cost for ryan to make a laminate ? for a person
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Surely an opportunity to set up a company called Frankenbats here, am new on here and wasn't even aware of this process looks interesting!
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how mujch would it cost for ryan to make a laminate ? for a person
have to ask him mate bit more work involved that a normal bat..
but depends if you want it made from a cleft?
a cut and shut cheap bat like an msr like we did?
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have to ask him mate bit more work involved that a normal bat..
but depends if you want it made from a cleft?
a cut and shut cheap bat like an msr like we did?
yeah from a MSR ;)
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Has he experimented with the cork or rubber sheet under a thin vineer like tk used to make
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No, and don't think we will. Had really good results with the second one so i'm quite happy.
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Has he experimented with the cork or rubber sheet under a thin vineer like tk used to make
are you sure tk used to do this? because thats not what i herd?
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I did a little experiment today. Drilled 7 holes down the edge right through, filled them with pva and then dowelled them with a short dowel of about 10mm. Once the glue dries I will test it then I might try it again with the pva/borax mixture
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Has he experimented with the cork or rubber sheet under a thin vineer like tk used to make
I know Callen tried this method
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are you sure tk used to do this? because thats not what i herd?
Oh yes he did the rubber sheets ones they cost a bomb 100 per cent made he did them..
They went that well as well I know other on here who have seen them too.
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How about a ply or 2 of CF in the middle sim dog?
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CF?
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Carbon fibre :D would be very thin and obviously is a good solid yet flexible materials
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for carbon to get its strength tho it needs to be laqured and then goes rock hard so might be hard to stick! maybe worth ago tho for some giggles
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You can buy it already formed in sheet format rather than as a material which needs resin infusion.
Like an A3 sheet which could be sliced up to bat width and layered in a Uni directional method for added strength/flex.
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You can buy it already formed in sheet format rather than as a material which needs resin infusion
feel free to send me some tom haha
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You can buy it already formed in sheet format rather than as a material which needs resin infusion.
Like an A3 sheet which could be sliced up to bat width and layered in a Uni directional method for added strength/flex.
pm me links info etc mate :P
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Ill see what I can do mate, will get some made up what size does it need to be as not got a bat handy at home ?
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i would say around 3.5 inch by 8 inch? that gives a little width at each side for the glue to make a secure fix.