Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: PeteW on November 25, 2012, 09:22:01 PM
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I realise this subject has been brought up on here more than a few times, and I've looked through some of the older threads that touch on this but I really don't understand why "big edges" are desirable. Reading some of the other stuff on here people seem to suggest that bigger edges provide a wider sweet spot, but I can't understand why that would be the case.
If I overlay the cross-sections of a traditional v-shaped profile and a modern concave profile it looks something like this:
(http://petewarman.com/batprofiles.gif)
My understanding is basically the more wood you have behind the point of contact with the ball the better. What I've tried to show with the lines in the diagram is that a traditional v-shape should therefore provide a wider sweet spot. The only advantage of the big edged bat is if the ball comes off the very outside sections of the blade and I assume when this happens the bat will twist slightly on impact so energy is lost and you won't get much power anyway.
I'm hoping there's a few knowledgable types on here who can point out the flaws in my argument, before I head over to Hove and spend a load of cash on a Mjolnir! :)
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A lot of batsmen (me included) like to look down the blade to see an enormous pieve of wood. It makes you feel gpod and makes your comrades jealous 8)
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all about ego and what makes you feel good at the crease.
one bat has huge edges and concaving, the other is more traditional
(http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac151/buzzrockport/utf-8BSU1BRzExMDcuanBn.jpg)
(http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac151/buzzrockport/utf-8BSU1BRzExMDYuanBn.jpg)
they weigh almost the same, the middle position is similar, the pick up is similar, but most people these days would choose the massive edges.
logic and ego aren't always compatible, I like both bats!
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Sure I understand that :D
It's not the quantity of wood that I'm questioning though, it's how a given volume should be shaped to optimise performance.
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So Buzz - you're suggesting it's all just psychology? The bat appears bigger so you think you can hit bigger. Is that really all there is to it? If so I'm definitely going trad for my next purchase.
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the yellow gripped beast looks very nice indeed love the toe area and the shape
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So Buzz - you're suggesting it's all just psychology? The bat appears bigger so you think you can hit bigger. Is that really all there is to it? If so I'm definitely going trad for my next purchase.
with the fat edges you think you will find it harder not to middle the ball.
if you naturally are a good timer if the ball, I would go for a more traditional shaped bat.
these days you can have a bit of both!
the yellow gripped beast looks very nice indeed love the toe area and the shape
it is, speak to sillyshilly, he reshaped it for me...!
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Middle position relative to the toe and balance are far more important than having big edges...
My three favourite bats all have a similar middle position lovely balance, and with the exception of one, are moderately edged, rather than massively edged.
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As buzz said you can opt for a nice middle ground! Moderately sized edges with a traditional shape.
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the advantages of big edged bats are most keenly felt when you are out of form - they give you a more stable blade so that your mishits are more controlled and powerful. If you're batting well, they make very little real difference!
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the disadvantages of big edged bats are most keenly felt when you are out of form - they give you a more stable blade so that your mishits are more controlled and powerfullarger edge so that your mishits carry to slip, gully and the keeper. If you're batting well, they make very little real difference!
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Too many people think too much about edges and stuff just pick a few up and go with the bat that feels right.
If your in form you could use a broom handle if your not I understand what manoramic is saying it is about coverage but for me coverage is most important because we're not pros and we tend to not find the middle more than finding it so I utilise things like offset edges.
Edge size to overall coverage I know which one I want
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I probably draw issue with your diagram as it on shows the benefit of the middle of the bat. It proves a point but hides another, as others have mentioned big edges = better off centre power. I've got 3 bats and they go through the range of big edges small spine to smaller edges big spine. I'm happy to use all 3 because they are all decent well balanced bats. To me, the pickup comes first and edge profile is a bonus, sure a decent edge helps when you are struggling but I've had very few sticks that have stopped me scoring runs.
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erm, not really. I don't think a nick off a big edged bat goes any further than one off a thinner edged bat!
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erm, not really. I don't think a nick off a big edged bat goes any further than one off a thinner edged bat!
Maybe not, but I've hit a six off the edge of one of my bats.....
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top edge?
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Maybe not, but I've hit a six off the edge of one of my bats.....
Facing mr morkel eh? ;)
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Top edge over cow.... We all know how good those Ultras are!
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I probably draw issue with your diagram as it on shows the benefit of the middle of the bat. It proves a point but hides another, as others have mentioned big edges = better off centre power.
Could I ask you to explain this a little further as I don't follow the logic. As I mentioned above surely if you're hitting the ball off the outside portion of the bat it will twist in your hand, so energy is lost and you'll never be able to generate a lot of power. So to hit the ball hard you need it to make contact somewhere around the middle two thirds (say) of the blade's surface.
I'm not saying you're wrong - I just want to understand your argument fully.
Just to touch on some of the other points brought up here - Obviously I agree that middle position and pick-up are also very important. But shaping a blade is always delicate balance and it's all about maximising the use of the willow you have available. I'm theorising that big edges are potentially a waste of wood, which could be removed to improve pickup without a noticeable loss in performance.
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I would read a part of norbs' batmaking blog, which sheds some light to edge size. :) Also teaches you a lot of other stuff, which may not help you make runs, but it certainly is quite an interesting read. Yes, even the physics of it is relatively interesting. 8)
http://www.whichcricketbat.com/cricket-bat/cricket-bats-edges-concaving-myths-smoke-and-mirrors
Check out his other stuff as well. I think he graduated as a Mechanical Engineer, so he uses some stuff he learned from university and applies it to batmaking. It actually makes me wonder if I'll graduate from engineering and become a podshaver instead too. :P Sounds like a much more satisfying route than working in an oil rig! ;)
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I would read a part of norbs' batmaking blog, which sheds some light to edge size. :) Also teaches you a lot of other stuff, which may not help you make runs, but it certainly is quite an interesting read. Yes, even the physics of it is relatively interesting. 8)
[url]http://www.whichcricketbat.com/cricket-bat/cricket-bats-edges-concaving-myths-smoke-and-mirrors[/url]
Check out his other stuff as well. I think he graduated as a Mechanical Engineer, so he uses some stuff he learned from university and applies it to batmaking. It actually makes me wonder if I'll graduate from engineering and become a podshaver instead too. :P Sounds like a much more satisfying route than working in an oil rig! ;)
Norbs and I have discussed this stuff at some length (I too am a Mech Eng by degree, if not by trade).
There is a lot of theoretical discussion about the benefits of bigger edges in terms of torque as well, but frankly most of it is rubbish, and big edges are really a fashion thing.
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The geek in me finds it a bit frustrating that this is all just theoretical and the analysis we do is just subjective: "feel the ping on that". I was wondering if dropping a ball onto different parts of a static (clamped) bat from a given height and measuring rebound height (repeated a few times and taking an average) could provide a more quantitative analysis and provide some sort of "ping profile" for a given bat? Was also wondering if pick-up could perhaps be quantified by resting the base of a bat's handle on a pivot and using a force gauge to measure the torque when the bat is horizontal.
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The geek in me finds it a bit frustrating that this is all just theoretical and the analysis we do is just subjective: "feel the ping on that". I was wondering if dropping a ball onto different parts of a static (clamped) bat from a given height and measuring rebound height (repeated a few times and taking an average) could provide a more quantitative analysis and provide some sort of "ping profile" for a given bat? Was also wondering if pick-up could perhaps be quantified by resting the base of a bat's handle on a pivot and using a force gauge to measure the torque when the bat is horizontal.
PeteW, meet Tim2000s
Tim2000s, meet PeteW
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The geek in me finds it a bit frustrating that this is all just theoretical and the analysis we do is just subjective: "feel the ping on that". I was wondering if dropping a ball onto different parts of a static (clamped) bat from a given height and measuring rebound height (repeated a few times and taking an average) could provide a more quantitative analysis and provide some sort of "ping profile" for a given bat? Was also wondering if pick-up could perhaps be quantified by resting the base of a bat's handle on a pivot and using a force gauge to measure the torque when the bat is horizontal.
Welcome to the world of questions about cricket bats!
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PeteW, meet Tim2000s
Tim2000s, meet PeteW
Pete, take a look at this thread....
http://184.154.5.91/cbforum/index.php?topic=16826.0
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Pete, take a look at this thread....
[url]http://184.154.5.91/cbforum/index.php?topic=16826.0[/url]
Was just trying to find that Tim!
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PeteW, meet Tim2000s
Tim2000s, meet PeteW
......and now we wait.... :D
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Norbs and I have discussed this stuff at some length (I too am a Mech Eng by degree, if not by trade).
There is a lot of theoretical discussion about the benefits of bigger edges in terms of torque as well, but frankly most of it is rubbish, and big edges are really a fashion thing.
I agree, I have a few big edged bats (Around 33mm+), and the ones which performed the best for me are the ones without concaving. Made me go for the decision to just go relatively small edges, around 20-25mm with no concaving and a good spine height. Only benefit big edges will have is that you will get a wider sweetspot, assuming there is no concaving, but with the disadvantage of a heavier bat, therefore slower bat speed and compromised pick up. I'm using heavier bats now, so it doesn't matter a huge amount, but they really aren't needed IMO.
Ofsetting may be something I want to look into a little more. It will be very interesting to see how offsetting the edges performs. Yes, all the technical reasons for it are on the blog, but I've yet to use or see a bat with an offset edge in flesh!
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Pete, take a look at this thread....
[url]http://184.154.5.91/cbforum/index.php?topic=16826.0[/url]
That is awesome! What happened?
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Ofsetting may be something I want to look into a little more. It will be very interesting to see how offsetting the edges performs. Yes, all the technical reasons for it are on the blog, but I've yet to use or see a bat with an offset edge in flesh!
I have two. It does lengthen the sweet spot for a better pick up.
That is awesome! What happened?
It didn't quite go according to plan...
1. You need a high speed camera to get video evidence
2. A non-flat bat face means that you don't have consistent vertical bounce off the bat, meaning that you need to video from more than one direction to measure the deviation from vertical caused by a slight bow due to roller shape to take it all fully into account.
3. It turns out that more than one person is required to do the experiment without bit more automation!
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I have two. It does lengthen the sweet spot for a better pick up.
Now that is clever use of willow distribution :D
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ah damn... so essentially we'd need ball tracking to measure rebound speed? sounds cheap!