Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Players => Topic started by: Buzz on November 26, 2012, 01:27:17 PM
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if England want to play 2 spinners and 3 seamers, something has to give.
We also really need a quality slip catcher.
ladies and gentlemen, I offer up Rikky Clarke.
much improved batting and bowling since his move to the champions oh, and the best slip in the country
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Best fielder.
I fear the fact he's a Spurs fan rules him out ;)
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Oddly I had a similar though a few days back. He is not test class by a long chalk but he would not do manifestly worse in the sub continent than, say, Fat Sammy. That said, he would have to bat six or seven, and he did not even do that for Warwickshire at times last season!
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In all seriousness, I'd say Woakes is actually ahead of him in the important disciplines too.
And that's talking not about 'potential' which basically translates as 'not ready'. Woakes is a serious player.
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In all seriousness, I'd say Woakes is actually ahead of him in the important disciplines too.
And that's talking not about 'potential' which basically translates as 'not ready'. Woakes is a serious player.
this
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Woakes for me
Anderson can stand at slip and trott was not that bad
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Woakes....I wonder if they will ever get around to giving him a chance.
He seems very talented, and he demonstrated when he played some ODIs in Australia that he has a fair bit of gumption too....but I wonder whether he is just a bit short of pace with the ball and just short of being a genuine batsman to get past Bresnan and, especially, the selectors darling Broad...
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CLARKE! not a chance. not good enough at test level. Woakes is an option. unsure if theres anyone else in that mould atm
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We don't have a test class all rounder, full stop. Doesn;t necessarily mean that there are not circumstances in which you have to go for the next best bet mind...
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Woakes....I wonder if they will ever get around to giving him a chance.
He seems very talented, and he demonstrated when he played some ODIs in Australia that he has a fair bit of gumption too....but I wonder whether he is just a bit short of pace with the ball and just short of being a genuine batsman to get past Bresnan and, especially, the selectors darling Broad...
Indeed - he looks like he's good enough to at least get a go - it's questionable whether either part of his game is truly test class, but I think the sum of the parts should be enough - I certainly think he has more about him than Fat Sam
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In the same way glen Chapple was disgrigaded by England due to pace
Samit Patel is atop class batsman woakes is good but not on the same level as Patel not,even close
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Woakes is definitely a great shout, I'd actually forgotten all about him.....what about Stokes at Durham? He was the the next cab off the rank for a period a year or so ago....Last I heard he had a hurty finger.....
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Ben Stokes ? - sorry. Yes I agree Ben Stokes or Woakes.
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Samit Patel is atop class batsman woakes is good but not on the same level as Patel not,even close
No he isn't. He isn't even close to being a top class batsman!
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Well we agree to disagree records state his record is better than average and I suspect given a go he would turn out fine just needs a long sustained chance I suspect, will he get it doubt it
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In the same way glen Chapple was disgrigaded by England due to pace
Two sided argument this one. There is no reason why a guy who bowls int he high 70s can't take wickets in Test cricket - Shaun Pollock did it, as did Chaminda Vaas. But...well...such bowlers do tend to rely on the conditions to get top players out and, well....
Mike Smith
Ed Giddins
Simon Brown
I could go on...
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I really can't understand why Samit is in the team.
In my opinion he isn't a good enough batsmen or bowler for the test scene. I could never see him coming in a scoring a vital 150 when england really needed him too, or batting out the last session for England to get a draw.
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He has hardly been given the chance though has he.
Not saying he is world class but the boy is certainly a better bat than woakes
I suspect though his due for the chop
How many people have watched him a few times he is know as having as much natural ability as anybody on the scene
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Two sided argument this one. There is no reason why a guy who bowls int he high 70s can't take wickets in Test cricket - Shaun Pollock did it, as did Chaminda Vaas. But...well...such bowlers do tend to rely on the conditions to get top players out and, well....
Mike Smith
Ed Giddins
Simon Brown
I could go on...
Well as I grew up with Glen and played in many of the same sides as him it what he was told by England from the horses mouth shame realy he could have offered so much and can bat as well but that is old ground.
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firstly not a massive patel fan but hes getting a harsh deal here. Scored a decent 100 in the warm up and had 2 shocking lbw decisions in the first test, which couldnt be helped
Granted his bowling has been poor but he hardly had a series yet. stick with him as 3rd spinner for this series at least
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Woakes is a quality batsman, he only bats at 8 for the Bears to try and manage his workload because he opens the bowling, if he were playing for England he'd be 1st change, could easily be a 6 or 7 bat. As for his pace, he's bowling around 83/84 i think now, he gained a few mph over the winter last season so it'd be interesting to see if he increases his pace even more for next season, but I think his control is superb and that is what matters more than his speed. Clarke could definitely do the job but is too old to be anything other than a stop gap.
Little known fact about Rikki Clarke, he doesn't have hands, just 2 buckets.
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Two sided argument this one. There is no reason why a guy who bowls int he high 70s can't take wickets in Test cricket - Shaun Pollock did it, as did Chaminda Vaas. But...well...such bowlers do tend to rely on the conditions to get top players out and, well....
Mike Smith
Ed Giddins
Simon Brown
I could go on...
Vernon Philander...
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On the subject of Woakes, does anybody know what's going on with him? He's not in the Lions squad, has he suddenly been dropped out of favour?
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Well we agree to disagree records state his record is better than average and I suspect given a go he would turn out fine just needs a long sustained chance I suspect, will he get it doubt it
Really? As of today his first class record shows just over 6'000 runs at 39 with 16 tons, which is solid (and, if we're being fair and transparent, marginally better than Marcus Trescothick and Michael Vaughan's when they came into the test arena) but nothing exceptional given the general upward trend since the move to four day cricket.
Some comparisons for you with other established players who either failed at Test level or never made it as far as the test side shows just how average his record is:
Anthony McGrath 14500 runs at 37 with 35 tons
David Sales 13000 at 39 with 26
Bobby Key 16000 at 41 with 46
Owais Shah 16000 at 42 with 44
Vikram Solanki 13000 at 36 with 31
and going back just a few years further:
Ben Smith 18500 at 40 with 40
Ed Smith 13000 at 42 with 34
Mal Loye 15000 at 40 with 42
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Well as I grew up with Glen and played in many of the same sides as him it what he was told by England from the horses mouth shame realy he could have offered so much and can bat as well but that is old ground.
Oh, Chappell deserved a chance, there is no doubt about that - it must have beenreally galling for him when his team mate at Lancashire Peter Martin was getting a game despite being a considerably worse bowler.
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Really? As of today his first class record shows just over 6'000 runs at 39 with 16 tons, which is solid (and, if we're being fair and transparent, marginally better than Marcus Trescothick and Michael Vaughan's when they came into the test arena) but nothing exceptional given the general upward trend since the move to four day cricket.
Some comparisons for you with other established players who either failed at Test level or never made it as far as the test side shows just how average his record is:
Anthony McGrath 14500 runs at 37 with 35 tons
David Sales 13000 at 39 with 26
Bobby Key 16000 at 41 with 46
Owais Shah 16000 at 42 with 44
Vikram Solanki 13000 at 36 with 31
and going back just a few years further:
Ben Smith 18500 at 40 with 40
Ed Smith 13000 at 42 with 34
Mal Loye 15000 at 40 with 42
You forgot nick speak and his wonder season
Well he is in the team I hope he gets a chance as well a quality player lies there
Key should have played more for me as well
Plus averages have been coming down I do believe not so many runs about as they used to be not that many make 1000 runs in a season any more not like they used to maybe the rolling situation has helped the bowlers
All suggestive to say I like him England seem to rate him as well I guess
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You forgot nick speak and his wonder season
Well he is in the team I hope he gets a chance as well a quality player lies there
Key should have played more for me as well
Plus averages have been coming down I do believe not so many runs about as they used to be.
All suggestive to say I like him England seem to rate him as well I guess
I don't know about averages coming down - I think if anything they are becoming more standardised because of four day cricket and better pitches.
Graham Lloyd would have been another good one to include in the above list come to think of it.
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Sales would have played a good few Tests if he hadn't knacked his knee in the Caribbean and he certainly became too fond of the tea trolley.
I like Patel, strikes me as one of those bats who gets stinking decisions. He also seems to be out strangled a lot.
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Really? As of today his first class record shows just over 6'000 runs at 39 with 16 tons, which is solid (and, if we're being fair and transparent, marginally better than Marcus Trescothick and Michael Vaughan's when they came into the test arena) but nothing exceptional given the general upward trend since the move to four day cricket.
Some comparisons for you with other established players who either failed at Test level or never made it as far as the test side shows just how average his record is:
Anthony McGrath 14500 runs at 37 with 35 tons
David Sales 13000 at 39 with 26
Bobby Key 16000 at 41 with 46
Owais Shah 16000 at 42 with 44
Vikram Solanki 13000 at 36 with 31
and going back just a few years further:
Ben Smith 18500 at 40 with 40
Ed Smith 13000 at 42 with 34
Mal Loye 15000 at 40 with 42
I'm so glad you left out Chris Adams there...
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I'm so glad you left out Chris Adams there...
he would have been a good call but I can't bring myself to consider the loathsome *deleted*
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I think that woakes is a talented player - but not a test no 6 - he is a bowling alrounder for me. We are looking for a batting allrounder and the massive advantage of Clarke is his bucket hands at slip - think of the difference two the first test if trott hadn't dropped Pujara on 8...
Strauss has taken more catches than any other outfielder. As Collingwood has shown that makes a huge difference.
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I like Patel, strikes me as one of those bats who gets stinking decisions. He also seems to be out strangled a lot.
There's probably a reason for that, and its probably because his technique isn't good enough!
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It's a fair point Buzz, we are lacking at slip.....and I agree about Woakes. I like him a lot but his batting isn't even close to being good enough to play test cricket as a batting allrounder. He could be a good option to replace Broad as a like for like though.....
So who are the main candidates if we decided to look for a batting allrounder then?
Clarke
Stokes
Is Ervine eligible yet?? :D
Oooh!! Coles at Kent (Or Sussex, I forget which!) He's a talented lad
Any others?
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In 5 years time.... Lewis Gregory!
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The Overton twins look handy
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Haha, I'm sure every-one could look at a few youngsters at their counties who could do a job in a few years time.
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Haha, I'm sure every-one could look at a few youngsters at their counties who could do a job in a few years time.
So who are the ones who could do it in the next 12 months?
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Clarke isnt going to get picked lets be honest
are we seriously suggesting he should be picked based on his Slip fielding?
he had his chance nearly 10 years ago, merely a decent championship allrounder now
got to look to the future, in Woakes, who's batting performances and stats are impressive bearing in mind hes probably classed as a bowling allrounder
or Stokes perhaps in a few more years when hes injury free and more experienced
Im sure everyone else has plenty of thoughts and players in mind
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We have just watched England win a Test match by 10 wickets. In this game Englands 2nd seamer has contributed absolutely nothing and their leading seamer took 1 wicket. The question I have to ask is why do we want a 3rd seamer?
In any case Clarke is not a Test number 6 although his bowling has drastically improved in the last couple of seasons
Stokes is unproven but has huge potential and is a batsman who can bowl. He is not a good enough bowler to be bowling in a Test match yet
Coles looks a very good player too and is a bowler who can bat similar to Woakes. One of these 2 guys must be in the frame for NZ if Broad doesn't buck up in the next 2 Tests
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James Allenby.
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James Allenby.
He's an aussie, we get enough stick for fielding saffas!!
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We have just watched England win a Test match by 10 wickets. In this game Englands 2nd seamer has contributed absolutely nothing and their leading seamer took 1 wicket. The question I have to ask is why do we want a 3rd seamer?
In any case Clarke is not a Test number 6 although his bowling has drastically improved in the last couple of seasons
Stokes is unproven but has huge potential and is a batsman who can bowl. He is not a good enough bowler to be bowling in a Test match yet
Coles looks a very good player too and is a bowler who can bat similar to Woakes. One of these 2 guys must be in the frame for NZ if Broad doesn't buck up in the next 2 Tests
Hate to say this but do you really think Broad will get dropped
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We have just watched England win a Test match by 10 wickets. In this game Englands 2nd seamer has contributed absolutely nothing and their leading seamer took 1 wicket. The question I have to ask is why do we want a 3rd seamer?
In any case Clarke is not a Test number 6 although his bowling has drastically improved in the last couple of seasons
Stokes is unproven but has huge potential and is a batsman who can bowl. He is not a good enough bowler to be bowling in a Test match yet
Coles looks a very good player too and is a bowler who can bat similar to Woakes. One of these 2 guys must be in the frame for NZ if Broad doesn't buck up in the next 2 Tests
Personally I would drop Broad for Woakes now! Broad's bowling is now so poor that bringing in Woakes could only be seen as a positive move!. I wouldn't drop Patel though....I think he's got a lot to offer in these conditions....maybe not long term but at the moment we need a spinning allrounder and I can't think of anyone else to do that...!
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I always get the impression with broad that he thinks he's arrived as a cricketer and now that he's been made vice he presumes he's undroppable. Prior should've been vice as form will always come and go with bowlers.
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I would drop Broad for Meaker as he is there in the squad already and has better pace!
And I would think about playing Root at number 6 instead of Patel! Root is a better batsman and can still bowl half decent spin. Plus if you are going to introduce a young player to Test match conditions, number 6 seems a good place to start?
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If, and its a big if, if they drop Broad I dont think theyd bring someone in from outside the current squad, such as Woakes or Coles.
more likely to be Finn, but as its been said that will only lengthen the tail, but in my opinion wont make much difference due to Broads lack of runs anyway
They have to drop him in my opinion for the next test, even though we won this one. Didnt bowl in 2nd innings
our front line seamer Anderson only bowled 4 overs, which is due to the conditions obviously
but because of his pace Finn has to come back in when he is fit again, even if its a risk his injury may flare up again, theres plenty of part time bowling to cover for him
Patel is a funny one, selectors obviously rate him to keep trying him again, but he hasnt set the world alight yet
Winning this test may have just saved him for the next test instead of Root, similarly with Broad aswell I think they may name an unchanged side unfortunately
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Prior to me seems like a leader no matter what titles there no doubt he had a massive hand in sorting the rift with kp and is a leader in his own right been very impressed with him in everything he does seems a top cricketer and bloke
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I always get the impression with broad that he thinks he's arrived as a cricketer and now that he's been made vice he presumes he's undroppable. Prior should've been vice as form will always come and go with bowlers.
I agree! His attitude is appalling and, now I think about it, Prior is an obvious choice for a Vice Captain...all Prior has ever done in an England shirt is improve!
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Personally I would drop Broad for Woakes now! Broad's bowling is now so poor that bringing in Woakes could only be seen as a positive move!. I wouldn't drop Patel though....I think he's got a lot to offer in these conditions....maybe not long term but at the moment we need a spinning allrounder and I can't think of anyone else to do that...!
I don't think there is any need to change the balance of the side atall. We have just won a Test match by 10 wickets and the next pitch will be not be much different, it might turn less but there is not any need for a 3rd seamer on this tour. Patel has done little wrong and as you say he is the best available in his position. I get the feeling that as soon as Finn is proved fit Broad will be carrying some drinks
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Prior to me seems like a leader no matter what titles there no doubt he had a massive hand in sorting the rift with kp and is a leader in his own right been very impressed with him in everything he does seems a top cricketer and bloke
agreed
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Ditto on Prior.
I actually think Broad is a good bowler done on form. A break for a Test or two is probably fair. He's one of the few who plays all three formats, so he could be due a break for the long-term good of England.
Root though? I think he's in the squad for experience and will only play if someone break a finger. He was a strange pick, particularly as Bairstow is technically reserve keeper, so with Morgan there too, he seems extraneous in a playing sense.
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We have just watched England win a Test match by 10 wickets. In this game Englands 2nd seamer has contributed absolutely nothing and their leading seamer took 1 wicket. The question I have to ask is why do we want a 3rd seamer?
Well, not all pitches that might require a second spinner will be quite so one sided as the one that has just been played on, and it is always a big risk to have just the two.
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Patel is a funny one, selectors obviously rate him to keep trying him again, but he hasnt set the world alight yet
Winning this test may have just saved him for the next test instead of Root, similarly with Broad aswell I think they may name an unchanged side unfortunately
Not sure about that - Bairstow and Bell perhaps?
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Not sure about that - Bairstow and Bell perhaps?
yeh completely forgot about Bell coming back
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Well, not all pitches that might require a second spinner will be quite so one sided as the one that has just been played on, and it is always a big risk to have just the two.
Of course they won't all be one sided. But they will all be spin dominated. You have 2 specialist spinners bowling at least 50% of the overs on pitches that favour spin. Just how many overs each do you think these 3 seamers are going to get through? I would rather lengthen my batting order with Patel or Root who are both capable of bowling overs during a days play as is KP if required. I doubt if there is one pitch in India that warrants 3 out and out seamers. Different story if we had a wicket-taking seamer who is a better bat than Patel but we don't
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Just a note to those who are talking about Woakes as a bowler who can bat a bit, he averages 38 in 1st class, with 6 tons and 10 fifties, Broad's average is 24 in 1st class with 1 ton and (admittedly) 16 fifties with 31 more games under his belt. Make no mistake, Woakes is a VERY accomplished bat, a different class to Broad.
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Of course they won't all be one sided. But they will all be spin dominated. You have 2 specialist spinners bowling at least 50% of the overs on pitches that favour spin. Just how many overs each do you think these 3 seamers are going to get through? I would rather lengthen my batting order with Patel or Root who are both capable of bowling overs during a days play as is KP if required. I doubt if there is one pitch in India that warrants 3 out and out seamers. Different story if we had a wicket-taking seamer who is a better bat than Patel but we don't
I was not necessarily referring to India though - the pitches in Pakistan last winter, and to a lesser extent in Sri Lanka as well, would have been perfect for a fie man attack. In a different way, a five man set up would be good in Australia too, where it would help combat the long hot days.
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indeed - to have a 5 man attack you either need an all-rounder (Flintoff, Beefy, Craig White) or to loose a batsman.
Chris Woakes is massively talented but a future number 7 at best, not a number 6, we have Prior at 7, I am not hugely keen on changing that, so Rikki Clarke it is!!
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Clarke bats below Woakes for Warwickshire... ;)
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If you are looking for a batting all rounder then how about Darren Stevens or Pete Trego?? They have been successful at county level for some time...
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Darren Stevens is getting on a bit...
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If you are looking for a batting all rounder then how about Darren Stevens or Pete Trego?? They have been successful at county level for some time...
Trego seems to have gone un-noticed, quite suprised espcially in the shorter forms of the game
I like him as a player and I think he could maybe do a decent job for England as a batting allrounder
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The new Ronnie Irani? :)
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I think I am a little obsessed by wanting a really good slip fielder in my team - having a waugh, botham, taylor at slip makes a huge difference to the way the team bowls, knowing the edges are going to get snaffled.
Swann is a decent, but not spectacular slip - I hold little faith in Trott and not a great deal in Cook at 1st - but he will almost certainly have a go.
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Its always an advantage to have someone like that - and England have been relatively lucky in recent years to have the likes of Strauss, Collingwood, Flintoff and Swann who were/are all decent. But even Phil Sharpe wouldn't be woth a place in the side as a specialist fielder - I mean, we barely even accept the need for a specialist with the gauntlets nowadays!