Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Vitas Cricket on January 24, 2013, 01:49:12 AM
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I posted this on CI a while back but had little response. I'm curious, how many of you take a retailers word as gospel when it comes to a bat being grade 1, grade 2 etc? Especially from the bigger boys like the owzats of this world?
Looking at a bat and deciding what grade of willow it is can be one of the most difficult parts of the buying process. Even to a trained eye it is arguably the most complex part of the industry.
I ask because while doing a bit of research to decide on our prices for 2013 i became pretty annoyed at the sheer lies from even the biggest retailers.
Quick example:
http://www.owzat-cricket.co.uk/acatalog/2013_Slazenger_V100_TAS_Pro_Cricket_Bats.html (http://www.owzat-cricket.co.uk/acatalog/2013_Slazenger_V100_TAS_Pro_Cricket_Bats.html)
Owzat clearly claiming this is grade 1 willow.
http://www.vitascricket.co.uk/products.php?id=727 (http://www.vitascricket.co.uk/products.php?id=727)
We state the correct grade of willow, grade 2.
Do the big companies think their customers are idiots? It only takes 2 minutes to look in the Slazenger 2013 catalogue and see that a Pro level bat is grade 2.
The problem then gets legitimised by rival companies, spreading false info:
http://www.talentcricket.co.uk/slazenger_v100_tas_cricket_bats/slazenger_v100_tas_pro_cricket_bat/c436p133.html (http://www.talentcricket.co.uk/slazenger_v100_tas_cricket_bats/slazenger_v100_tas_pro_cricket_bat/c436p133.html)
Now i freely admit i copy and paste plenty of descriptions, but i give them a quick proof read for accuracy of content and also for spelling first!
In my opinion, this one is worse:
http://www.owzat-cricket.co.uk/acatalog/2013_Slazenger_V360_Test_Cricket_Bats.html (http://www.owzat-cricket.co.uk/acatalog/2013_Slazenger_V360_Test_Cricket_Bats.html)
http://www.vitascricket.co.uk/products.php?id=737 (http://www.vitascricket.co.uk/products.php?id=737)
Plenty of people out there who don't mind buying a good grade 2 bat, but when a grade 3 turns up will they be so happy?
Are there any other examples out there? eBay aside of course, every dirty old piece of driftwood is Grade 1++++ on eBay...
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Wow .. Thanks for bringing that up. Never thought this can be an issue
I assumed that there will be only one source of such info .i.e from the brand owner .
May be worth a shot asking these retailers on twitter?
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WHen i look to buy a new bat in stores i consider all the grade spend a few hours browsing looking for the best deal.(annoys the shop keepers some times)
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I'll always check what the manufacturer stats as opposed to the retailer, too many inconsistencies in retail land...
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I tend to know what bat I'm looking for so already know what grade it will be. But that said I don't buy bats from retailers due to the extream prices they charge.
A quality bat from a well known retailer sells for £400 now days but on here you can get a custom made bat for less money and there is now way anybody can tell me a £400 true Grade 1 bat plays better than a £250-£300 true custom made Grade 1 bat. :D
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I doubt most even read the descriptions. Most people Enter the bat info into to google, find the cheapest price, make sure they are legit and buy.
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I posted this on CI a while back but had little response. I'm curious, how many of you take a retailers word as gospel when it comes to a bat being grade 1, grade 2 etc? Especially from the bigger boys like the owzats of this world?
Looking at a bat and deciding what grade of willow it is can be one of the most difficult parts of the buying process. Even to a trained eye it is arguably the most complex part of the industry.
I ask because while doing a bit of research to decide on our prices for 2013 i became pretty annoyed at the sheer lies from even the biggest retailers.
Quick example:
[url]http://www.owzat-cricket.co.uk/acatalog/2013_Slazenger_V100_TAS_Pro_Cricket_Bats.html[/url] ([url]http://www.owzat-cricket.co.uk/acatalog/2013_Slazenger_V100_TAS_Pro_Cricket_Bats.html[/url])
Owzat clearly claiming this is grade 1 willow.
[url]http://www.vitascricket.co.uk/products.php?id=727[/url] ([url]http://www.vitascricket.co.uk/products.php?id=727[/url])
We state the correct grade of willow, grade 2.
Do the big companies think their customers are idiots? It only takes 2 minutes to look in the Slazenger 2013 catalogue and see that a Pro level bat is grade 2.
The problem then gets legitimised by rival companies, spreading false info:
[url]http://www.talentcricket.co.uk/slazenger_v100_tas_cricket_bats/slazenger_v100_tas_pro_cricket_bat/c436p133.html[/url] ([url]http://www.talentcricket.co.uk/slazenger_v100_tas_cricket_bats/slazenger_v100_tas_pro_cricket_bat/c436p133.html[/url])
Now i freely admit i copy and paste plenty of descriptions, but i give them a quick proof read for accuracy of content and also for spelling first!
In my opinion, this one is worse:
[url]http://www.owzat-cricket.co.uk/acatalog/2013_Slazenger_V360_Test_Cricket_Bats.html[/url] ([url]http://www.owzat-cricket.co.uk/acatalog/2013_Slazenger_V360_Test_Cricket_Bats.html[/url])
[url]http://www.vitascricket.co.uk/products.php?id=737[/url] ([url]http://www.vitascricket.co.uk/products.php?id=737[/url])
Plenty of people out there who don't mind buying a good grade 2 bat, but when a grade 3 turns up will they be so happy?
Are there any other examples out there? eBay aside of course, every dirty old piece of driftwood is Grade 1++++ on eBay...
To be honest, Jake, I am more surprised by the laziness of some retailers to copy and paste text from their competitors?!!
On the grading front, I would accept it more for Kookaburra and GN bats, as they don't seem to publish their grades anywhere and leave it up to the retailer to judge / guess. But as you say, Slazenger are one of the more open ones, with the grades clearly listed in their catalogue, so seeing this from the likes of Talent and Owzat is laughable in my opinion. I sincerely hope few punters are swayed by this and don't end up buying on false pretences.
I also disagree with what others have said on here - I think this sort of thing is important and is certainly read, especially by uneducated parents, who perhaps don't play cricket themselves, and are buying for their children, which comprises a large percentage of our market.
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Jake I agree with you completely, but we don't know if these retailers are grading on performance or on willow grade.
Wrights say that anything with heartwood on is grade 2. How many top end Gray Nics bats do you see with heart wood? A lot!
They are obviously grading willow themselves.
Very grey area.
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Jake I agree with you completely, but we don't know if these retailers are grading on performance or on willow grade.
Wrights say that anything with heartwood on is grade 2. How many top end Gray Nics bats do you see with heart wood? A lot!
They are obviously grading willow themselves.
Very grey area.
GN use there own willow so they grade it from stratch unlike other companies who buy from JS Wrights and then put there own touch on the grading system
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I think this discussion raises more questions than answers! Do I believe what the retailer tells me? Of course not! They want to sell you a bat and that motivation will always be foremost in their minds. Do I believe what the makers tell me? No! For the same reasons!
The argument about grading on performance is a complete non starter. There is no way you can tell how a bat is going to perform so how can you grade by it? Grading on performance is what people tell you in order to sell more lower grade bats for more money. Don't fall for it!
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GN use there own willow so they grade it from stratch unlike other companies who buy from JS Wrights and then put there own touch on the grading system
Oh ok, didn't know that.
But you can see what I mean, I would guess that GN are grading on performance then aesthetics.
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I think this discussion raises more questions than answers! Do I believe what the retailer tells me? Of course not! They want to sell you a bat and that motivation will always be foremost in their minds. Do I believe what the makers tell me? No! For the same reasons!
The argument about grading on performance is a complete non starter. There is no way you can tell how a bat is going to perform so how can you grade by it? Grading on performance is what people tell you in order to sell more lower grade bats for more money. Don't fall for it!
I always consider myself as an advisory first, a salesman second. Some bats/brands make more money for us than others, but I don't lead customers straight over to them without even offering any other products as I suspect many cowboys do.
I think most people appreciate that someone trying to sell you something is going to do their best to convince you that what they have to offer is the best.
What infuriates me here is that even the biggest companies are lying, no other way of putting it. A grade 1 Slazenger V100 Pro simply doesn't exist.
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Another interesting topic! Obviously there is quite a difference between off the shelf and custom.
One thing that I have noticed on here, is that when guys have visited the maker, and with his help selected a cleft (largely following plenty of mallet work) the bat that is eventually produced is rarely blemish free, and might not be top grade on looks. However, the customer is largely satisfied, as he has been involved in the selection process etc. and has picked his blade mainly on performance with looks coming second. - How would the bat be graded?
Apart from this, I kind of think that the whole business of grading is a bit skewed.
For example, if a manufacturer PURELY grades on performance, who is going to buy a g3 or lower bat? Surely everyone wants a bat that will 'go'?
Overall I think it is safer to grade on pure cosmetics - especially as the eventual performance of a bat can be open to negotiation for quite some time. Even when buying from the cleft stage, it is potential performance that is tested not actual.
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I always consider myself as an advisory first, a salesman second. Some bats/brands make more money for us than others, but I don't lead customers straight over to them without even offering any other products as I suspect many cowboys do.
I think most people appreciate that someone trying to sell you something is going to do their best to convince you that what they have to offer is the best.
What infuriates me here is that even the biggest companies are lying, no other way of putting it. A grade 1 Slazenger V100 Pro simply doesn't exist.
Agreed and sadly that reflects very badly on the industry as a whole! The good guys end up being tarred with the same brush.
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Feel a bit naive really, when buying a new bat I'd expect an established an popular retailer to be displaying the correct info and given the large discrepancies between the advertised grade and the actual grade of willow this cannot just be an honest mistake??
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I always consider myself as an advisory first, a salesman second. Some bats/brands make more money for us than others, but I don't lead customers straight over to them without even offering any other products as I suspect many cowboys do.
I think most people appreciate that someone trying to sell you something is going to do their best to convince you that what they have to offer is the best.
What infuriates me here is that even the biggest companies are lying, no other way of putting it. A grade 1 Slazenger V100 Pro simply doesn't exist.
I can see your frustration when you take the care to check against the manufacturer's catalogue, but I think to say "lying" is a bit harsh.
Rightly, we have to take the manufacturer's grading for an online description, no question. But as you know, every piece of wood is pretty much different, and you'll get some grade 1's that look better than other grade 1's. Some you think should have been graded 2, and the other way round as well. So what we can say to a customer is ... "well, this is supposed to be a grade 2 but to me it could easily have been graded as 1"
All the top retailers, the ones we can call cricket specialists, would have owners/staff who have played the game to a reasonable standard. I'd generally give them the benefit of the doubt if the grading on their web site is different from the catalogue ... it's more likely to be a cut and paste error that they haven't noticed.
So, the moral is, if you're copying from another web site, then better check what you are copying ... even the typos get copied and noone notices!
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Me personally think and I respect your livelihood and envy your jobs but most of you all hide the fact.
You all sell pretty much the same products no matter what the speil you give hand picked bla bla,video and so on and so on.
It does show some of you will go the extra mile which I guess is good but please do not be offended when I say I agree with rob 90 per cent probably just type in the product see where it is cheapest and buy.
Let's not get blinkered the forum shops do not have a monopoly of the best bats.
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Thanks to Vitas Cricket for sharing such valuable info. Now i realized that why some of the bats i purchased online from Talent store which they claimed as G1 turned out to G2 or even G3.
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Out of interest, what did you buy?
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Would you trust the ECB shop? Bargain price of £5 for a grade 1 EW bat :)
http://store.ecb.co.uk/stores/ecb/products/product_details.aspx?pid=51642&cid=7071&tid=&bid=1&nav= (http://store.ecb.co.uk/stores/ecb/products/product_details.aspx?pid=51642&cid=7071&tid=&bid=1&nav=)
Or is it a Kashmir? Hang on it's a Pro, Elite and County all in one :D
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If I were to buy from a retailer unless I already know what I was going to buy I'd barely take any notice of what the 'seller' is saying as they are bound to be 'pushing' their product.
It also doesn't surprise me that business can't be 100% trusted, at the end of the day most of them are there to make money so it's not in their interest to be 100% honest. Some of course are better than others so it's not a catch all statement there before anyone takes offence.
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If I were to buy from a retailer unless I already know what I was going to buy I'd barely take any notice of what the 'seller' is saying as they are bound to be 'pushing' their product.
It also doesn't surprise me that business can't be 100% trusted, at the end of the day most of them are there to make money so it's not in their interest to be 100% honest. Some of course are better than others so it's not a catch all statement there before anyone takes offence.
What % of retailers do you think cannot be trusted 100%
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What % of retailers do you think cannot be trusted 100%
not many fella, mainly the bigger ones tbh
The bigger people get the more likely they are to cut corners, take the risk etc. Smaller ones tend to rely more on word of mouth etc so have to rely on top Customer feedback etc. Just my opinion here.
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But then how do the big shops get there names I mean they are big for a reason like barring tons and owzat as I did romida.
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not many fella, mainly the bigger ones tbh
The bigger people get the more likely they are to cut corners, take the risk etc. Smaller ones tend to rely more on word of mouth etc so have to rely on top Customer feedback etc. Just my opinion here.
That's good :)
I like your ambitions (in your other post) to have a shop, nets, changing room, etc ... mine too, as good net facilities are scarce where we are.
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But then how do the big shops get there names I mean they are big for a reason like barring tons and owzat as I did romida.
I didn't mean they have never been 'good' etc, I just meant that as you grow standards slip as your attention is taken away either onto 'more important things than serving the customer' or 'handed down to a manager' so you can be the boss than doesn't work as much etc.. Plus I would also assume as you grow, you are required to take on more staff and unfortunately no matter how good people say their staff are they are not the owners and won't care quite as much about your business.
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They did at the romida's I went to the dorking boys at leather head where great and so where the guys at newhay and magull less so at brighouse.
I understand your point mate but if you know a thing or two then whatever the salesman says you may know there talking dribble.
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They did at the romida's I went to the dorking boys at leather head where great and so where the guys at newhay and magull less so at brighouse.
I understand your point mate but if you know a thing or two then whatever the salesman says you may know there talking dribble.
I suppose I would just work on the assumption that most of the customers don't know what they are talking about. You can usually tell pretty quickly if people do, and in that case you leave them to it. It's the people that don't know what they are actually talking about that are the ones that will generally fall for sales speak etc. They are the ones retailers (all retailers not just cricket specific) target. You target the more... umm... gulible of people as they are more likely to spend spend spend and not really question you. It's the guys who do know what they want/talking about that will however build your reputation but it's once your big enough, it's the not so knowing who will make you the money as they trust the brand name and almost buy blind.
Just think what it's like in a place like PC World etc, their 'expert sales staff' actually know little more than GCSE IT, yet people actually ask their advice and listen to what they say, often buying off their recommendations. That's how powerful sales pitches are to gulible or non knowing parents can be/is etc.
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I can see your frustration when you take the care to check against the manufacturer's catalogue, but I think to say "lying" is a bit harsh.
Rightly, we have to take the manufacturer's grading for an online description, no question. But as you know, every piece of wood is pretty much different, and you'll get some grade 1's that look better than other grade 1's. Some you think should have been graded 2, and the other way round as well. So what we can say to a customer is ... "well, this is supposed to be a grade 2 but to me it could easily have been graded as 1"
All the top retailers, the ones we can call cricket specialists, would have owners/staff who have played the game to a reasonable standard. I'd generally give them the benefit of the doubt if the grading on their web site is different from the catalogue ... it's more likely to be a cut and paste error that they haven't noticed.
So, the moral is, if you're copying from another web site, then better check what you are copying ... even the typos get copied and noone notices!
I understand that point on a small scale. If there is a particularly nice looking low end bat, i can suggest to the customer that maybe its been misgraded. This only really works in person though. However, every single Slazenger Pro that goes out the door of Owzat and Talent (online sales anyway) is being sold as grade 1. They cant all have been misgraded.
As for the copy and paste oversight, i can understand this to a point, especially as copy and pasting is rife in cricket retail. But thats mainly for descriptions, where a bulk of boring text about concaving etc gets copied. Owzats listing of the bats looks like a table format where data like grade would be entered manually.
And even so, the biggest retailers are usually the ones that other retailers copy the description from, so the misinformation filters down. The bigger boys generally launch first, and someone has to write the original description. Whoever wrote it first isn't telling the truth.
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A bloke at our club a few years ago bought online from a big retailer a kookaburra ice sub zero, which at the time was supposedly the top of the range G1 willow bat in that range I think. He paid around £250 for it, and when he bought it to nets everyone was to say the least surprised at how poor quality it was. The result of that was that no one from our club has bought a bat from that retailer since.
A week later someone else went to a local company and bought a bat from a manufacturer called Funky (Indian made but decent quality), they got good service from someone who knew their stuff, was clear about what they were sellin,and they paid a fair amount of cash for a good bat. The result of that was that within 2 weeks 6 players (including myself) had Funky bats for the season.
I guess the moral to that ramble is that if you you are a "big" retailer and pull a bit of a fast one you can loose a lot of potential business. And if you are a smaller business who focuses on the customer, are honest and sell for the right reasons there is a place in this market for you due to the power of word of mouth. And I for one am happy about that.
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Oh so you know me Harvey and based near Salisbury
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Been to cricket and hockey many times over the past few years. Actually based near Fareham but it's not that far away really. Have 2 Funky fire's in the collection at the moment and still 3 or 4 of the players in the club using them. Glad I said good things now ;)
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Aswani cricket, if your question addressed to me what did i purchase from talent then answer is
1- Newbery Thruxton sps
2- Slazenger V500 ultimate
3- Bradburry (didn't remember which one)
4- Salix pod performance
Out of interest, what did you buy?
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Oh so you know me Harvey and based near Salisbury
I didn't know that, hopefully you will visit us in Swindon this year