Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: shoaibuk on June 20, 2009, 09:42:40 PM
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Does anyone have any experience of getting a custom bat made, choosing a cleft and finding that the best, lightest and lushest clefts have been reserved for pros?
I recently contacted a few custom bat makers and they were extremely ambigious and refused to give a straight answer about whether they make all clefts available to everyone.
An exception was Warsop, who assured me that I would be entitled to the same timber as the pros.
Anyone have any particular experiences or knowledge regarding this? The reason I bring this is up is because of my personal experience with a certain custom manufacturer in the north of England who promised me the best but that is not what I feel I received.
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The merchants hold back willow for pro's, then many batmakers also hold back their best clefts that they order (which may not even be the best available). So I'd say it's unlikely you'd get the best.
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Interesting thread. Never thought about it really.
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The merchants hold back willow for pro's, then many batmakers also hold back their best clefts that they order (which may not even be the best available). So I'd say it's unlikely you'd get the best.
How do you know this Tom? If this is the case than surely we all being ripped off in a big way! What with all these "finest willow" and "specially reserved clefts" claims!
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Well I know nothing about willow and allowed by custom maker to select my piece for me. I will let you know how it feels in the nets in a few weeks.
My maker had a lot of raw willow there and I couldn't tell the difference one from the rest.
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Agreed that the bat-makers shouldnt really advertise that way if they really do reserve certain clefts for the pros.
But, imo, it doesnt really matter since its the podshaver that has more to do with the making of a good bat than the willow itself. A decent grade 2/3 cleft could still wind up as an excellent bat if its in the hands of a Julian Millichamp. IMO, it would be impossible to differentiate between the playability of said bat and one made from willow reserved for the pros.
From the JS Wright website:
"The only main differences in the grade are the varying degrees of brown wood and / or butterfly stain plus the number of blemishes or knots on the bat. Generally the more colour in the bat the lower the grade, there is however negligable difference in the playing ability, it is purely a perception that if it looks good it will play well, this is not the case."
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I have no idea really on this subject, but what I can say is I bumped into one of my ex school friends on the opposing team recently, who is sponsored by GM... he had a GM Icon, same profile and size as mine, but it picked up like a feather and it was so unbelievably well balanced.. It was such beautiful willow!!... mine just hasn't felt as good since
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JS Wright don't answer straight questions. I once sent an email to them asking them about clefts and they would not comment or give straight answers.
I asked Newbery about this issue and to give them their due told me that yes, they do reserve the lightest clefts for their pros. Bradbury say that everyone has access to the best, as do M&H.
But my common sense tells me something else. Some of the pros bats have unbelievably huge profiles and yet are so light (I'm talking about dead weight). One of my teammates had this feather-light bat with an enormous profile, but only because he went to a bat maker whom he knew in Pakistan. Unless you are extremely pro-active and know what you want and how to get it, you are likely to be mugged. Mugged.
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Fair enough.
However, I dont feel like Im getting mugged simply because Im not discerning enough to be able to tell the difference in playability as mentioned in my previous post.
I dont need my bats made from pro-quality willow because I dont believe its going to make a considerable difference to how successful I am as a batsman.
But to answer your question, from your experiences and the other posts in this thread, I guess it is a case of false advertising of the part of some people but personally, I wouldnt feel ripped off by it.
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Hmmm interesting discussion. Given that I know little about willow itself I do know that bats appear to be made of drier wood than they used to be or so it seems with many of the top players. Given that the experts will say that the moisture content should be between 12-14% I am sure this is being ignored by the top folks. It appears they have dried the wood which of course reduces weight. Provided that the bats are pressed correctly this will produce a wonderful light piece BUT the downside is a much reduced life span. This is okay for those of us who have a bat sponsor but not so great for the average cricketer.
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umpires have bat sponsor's?
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I am back playing even at my old age lol. I still umpire.
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IF you want a good bat go and see Gary from Redback or just call him!!! I have never seen a bad redback bat or heard of a bad one. And find the small one man band guy they are around. And you will get a LE super Willow cleft as the small guys can't afford to make a good bat!!! Just ask around at your local club they are out there. You will pay around a £150.00p for a bat that would cost £300.00p+ from any of the big boys.
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Or H4L (Matt) sold me 2 superb clefts and was really helpful throughout the whole process, i would definitely think twice before buying a bat off the shelf again now.
I just posted my life's bat collection, and looking through it, i realised that my older bats ALL seemed to be guns, but lately i have really struggled to get the same quality.
OR... I am getting older/ fatter/ unfitter and becoming a worse batsman who never practises anymore.
I think I will stick to the bats being worse- they are all rubbish!!!
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My belief is that bat makers use comments like the lightest clefts etc as a selling point, if you think your going to get the same bat made from the same standard cleft as the likes of international players then you will part with your money and perhaps pay a premium. I have dealt with a number of bat makers over the years and the very best clefts are reserved for the top level players only and only on the odd occasion would you be lucky enough have a bat made from the special clefts.
Some of the smaller pod shavers may very well offer you a bat from the best clefts they have however they don't have the endless list of international players who are purchasing bats from them. Ive had g2/g3 bats which have been better than most top end g1 bats I've ever owned and I've had a few bats over the years. Custom made bats in general are far better than off the shelf bats however you do pay a big premium for this which is not always worth it.
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My belief is that bat makers use comments like the lightest clefts etc as a selling point, if you think your going to get the same bat made from the same standard cleft as the likes of international players then you will part with your money and perhaps pay a premium. I have dealt with a number of bat makers over the years and the very best clefts are reserved for the top level players only and only on the odd occasion would you be lucky enough have a bat made from the special clefts.
Some of the smaller pod shavers may very well offer you a bat from the best clefts they have however they don't have the endless list of international players who are purchasing bats from them. Ive had g2/g3 bats which have been better than most top end g1 bats I've ever owned and I've had a few bats over the years. Custom made bats in general are far better than off the shelf bats however you do pay a big premium for this which is not always worth it.
Completely agree and the smaller pod shavers just don't have the lightest clefts available to them either you have to pull in a favour or do a good turn for someone to get them or take your chances by buying a far few clefts yourself to find one [if they haven't already be removed]
Also agree on the the G1 - G2 /G3 thing, this cosmetics grading thing is for shop owners and brainwashing [to a certain extent] of the customer. It is supply and demand, "I've heard that x amount of straight grains is the best" hey presto Grade 1 add a few ££££'s
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Pro players have a lot to answer for when you see there bats with massive edges! When you get willow from the merchants, i would say 5-10% will be very light clefts, but this still does'nt mean they will all be clean and have 15 straight even grains, and most of those light clefts will be used for pro bats . Companies the size of gray nicolls ,newbery and kookaburra will have at 10000+ clefts a year to choose from.
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Also, as you know, they don't all want the lightest clefts just one that feels right for them. They aren't overly worried about the dead weight of the bat either!
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My comments were not aimed at any of the smaller bat makers and companies, more about the myth that the so called lighter clefts are available to purchase as custom made for the man in the street. It was also aimed at the g1 g2 g3 debate and that 15 clean straight grains in my opinion does not always produce a better bat than that which has 8 grains.
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Good debate going on here!! I was talking to a bat maker the other day and he even said to me he has found it pays some times to have a bat with a knot in the face as it can hold the bat together. whether is true or not i dont know. I was also told by him you can pick a piece of willow up and it can have 9 or so perfect straight grains but it just feels bottom heavy and bad and he wont use it wheras he can pick up a piece full of marks and know straight away it gonna make a beaut!! I think what myself and joe public have to do is realise its an art form bat makeing and machines in a factory are not gonna get the best out of any piece of wood be it machined here or in Australia/India pakistan etc but these bats can sometimes offer good value for money.
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I was watching a video segment where Stuart Kranzbuhler was making a bat in the presence of Matty Hayden and Andrew Symonds.
He looked at the pile of G1 clefts in stock (prolly about 700 of them) and said, perhaps only ONE from these clefts will be good enough to qualify to be picked for a custom bat for Mathew Hyden.
I think it clearly tells us that clefts used for pros are usually reserved and not available to public that easily since they are extremely hard to come by.
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In view of all the above where does the following (type of) "bat maker" sit in the scheme of things?
http://sscricket.com/custom-made-bat.asp
With things like: what willow they (say they) use?
quality of what they produce?
innovation/differentiation?
actual vs claimed performance?
value for money?
(ongoing) reputation in the marketplace?
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I was watching a video segment where Stuart Kranzbuhler was making a bat in the presence of Matty Hayden and Andrew Symonds.
He looked at the pile of G1 clefts in stock (prolly about 700 of them) and said, perhaps only ONE from these clefts will be good enough to qualify to be picked for a custom bat for Mathew Hyden.
I think it clearly tells us that clefts used for pros are usually reserved and not available to public that easily since they are extremely hard to come by.
has anyone got a link to this? it was on the cricket show, cant seem to find it anywhere now?
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Im pretty sure from my understanding there are very very little clefts of the amazing quality that Matt Hayden uses (Example is through laver and wood which on there most expensive bat have a waiting list). From my understanding state players only use very good quality grade 1 bat (still better than the ones off the shelf, or at least 90% of them). However some of the test match batsman and very good state batsmen get a tad higher quality from there suppliers.
Another example is in the interview the other day in the T20 big bash game, george bailey said about Tim Paine "now that hes made the australian team his bats hes got are unbelievable, so its good hes made some runs with them" . So I think theres a big difference between pros bats and test bats.
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Players do not care about willow grading, state players may, but obviously don't get the best performing willow as it is rarely grade 1 for Pro's.
Clefts are weighed and the lowest weight 1% will be reserved for the Pro's in big companies, 10K bats a year, that's 100 clefts, of them 10+ will crack when pressed as they are so low in density so not many true Pro clefts abound. I've seen a 20+ all sapwood grain bat used by Sachin and it is so rare to find a top Pro with one, the lesser Pro's may have these grains but not with the low density and that is the key, having both is an incredible ask for a willow merchant.
Should this bother you? no, as how many people would want a bat that will start breaking quickly and need constant care in it's short life, and what will the power increase be? 10-15% over a standard bat only, and the price would be well over the £300 if you could buy one. All in all you are best served by getting a well pressed bat as the first tick on your sheet, it will make all the difference.
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Talisman.
In your opinion, and i know it is only an opinion, but who out there presses well and what are your main considerations to be taken when presses a cleft
(sorry turned out to be two questions)
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I think Talisman has said Newbery press the best in an earlier post.
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I do believe from much experience that Newbery are the best, others who seem to get a good result from their clefts are Laver & Wood, Screaming Cat and Warsop.
I have seen Gray Nic's press and it was a production line with no alterations made and no one even looked at the clefts as they went through the press, it is sad as they had the best skills in the country and lost them all.
Every Newbery is pressed by hand by Tim and he weighs up every cleft before the initial press and watch's it all the way through and back and again if needed, again with the final press. The term soft pressed is over used as it does not exist, no one presses a cleft lighter as the performance will be lowered, a hard cleft will get a lighter press than a soft cleft, there is an optimum level of performance from each cleft and the goal is to achieve it.
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Thanks for the insight.
being presumptive i am guessing that is about having the experience to know the way to get the best out of the cleft.
Are there many or any non english, and Kiwi bats that do a very good job at pressing regularly?
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It is very hard to gain the knowledge, the only way to do it is to spend years pressing with the methods taught to you by those you know. I have had a good long chat to the MD of a very big Asian firm about the pressing and he admits that they cannot match Newbery after he tapped up all the Newbery's in a shop and found the lowest grade bats to be pressed superbly. He says that they sometimes match the pressing but never on a consistent basis, its all down to luck with them.