Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: norbs on January 29, 2013, 08:38:45 PM
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Do you buy from a retailer or direct?
Is retail inflating prices?
Let say I want to buy a camera.... i go to the shop i look at it and then I buy online!
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Likewise - the John Lewis effect!
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Which is why Jacobs and Jessops have gone into Administration. The overheads of running a retail chain like that are much higher than a warehouse based business.
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Depends. I'm idealistic so I always buy paperbacks from an indy bookshop rather than Amazon, or a bat from a maker/indy business. It's great to chat to people who aren't faceless and take a bit of time to to the extra mile. Softs I try and get cheap from wherever cos I'm jot that stupid...
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Depends on whether you want something that is always the same or if each item can be different under the same title.
Where you are talking about a camera, these are mass manufacturer and probably by machine. The differences between each camera will be minute and not affecting the outcome.
A bat is a different kettle of fish as we all know you could pick up three 'identical' bats and each will feel and perform differently
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Think this is why so many shops and businesses are going into administration because like you say most people just go to the retailers now to try things or see what they look like then try and get the best deal online. Not sure what this will mean in the long term though. Will there be any shops left in 20yrs other than supermarkets? Time will tell I guess.
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The problem is that there is so much disreputable behaviour from businesses big and small that it is difficult as a customer to do much more than go for the cheapest possible solution...
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Yes, but if you go to the shop you can have a root around to find something that you really like, you might get a cup of tea, you might even be able to negotiate on the price. You'll also more than like spot a bargain that you weren't actually in the market for...
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Do you buy from a retailer or direct?
Is retail inflating prices?
Let say I want to buy a camera.... i go to the shop i look at it and then I buy online!
Are you saying that the price of bats are inflated by retailers? I spoke to a retailer about this last year and he claimed that some bat companies are driving their prices up to unresaonable levels and he cannot shift them as a result.
Is this what you're getting at, Norbs? Thing is, as a bat maker, how much do you want to make on a bat? How many bats can you reasonably expect to turn around in a day without compromising on quality? The fewer bats you can make, the bigger the margin you're looking for per bat, Hence a £350+ bespoke experience.
Not sure what I think of M&H charging £400 off the shelf but then I've never used one.
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Do you buy from a retailer or direct?
Is retail inflating prices?
Let say I want to buy a camera.... i go to the shop i look at it and then I buy online!
Don't know how many of you have experienced this , but I bought my SG bat at a cheaper price from a retailer than what it is advertised for on the official SG website !!
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Don't know how many of you have experienced this , but I bought my SG bat at a cheaper price from a retailer than what it is advertised for on the official SG website !!
I would assume so - M&H sell on their own website at £RRP for example, but retailers tend to offer a discounted price to the £RRP.
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Mornin' Fez
Are you saying that the price of bats are inflated by retailers? I spoke to a retailer about this last year and he claimed that some bat companies are driving their prices up to unresaonable levels and he cannot shift them as a result.
Nope I'm not saying that... I was hoping for a discussion yes, that is why we are here afterall.. but I will answer your questions and give you my opinion at the same time....
By the time the bat maker company gets a cut and the retailer gets a cut then you have to increase the RRP price otherwise no one will get anything for it!
As I mentioned and people have they like to go to the retailer to see something... This isnt a new thing it has been happening for decades and one of reason why we use salix alba caerulea. [White willow sold more]
But I digress if the source company sold at a different price to the retailer you'd have the "John Lewis" effect as Manormanic mentioned. So it is good thing that source and retailer prices match otherwise the retailer gains nothing as there is no point in him stocking it.
For him/her to stock it there needs to be something in it for both parties, so it isnt neither their issue or the source company more the customer that increases the price due to the demand to view/feel the product [I think I finally answer one of my questions on CBF!!!!]
Is this what you're getting at, Norbs? Thing is, as a bat maker, how much do you want to make on a bat? How many bats can you reasonably expect to turn around in a day without compromising on quality? The fewer bats you can make, the bigger the margin you're looking for per bat, Hence a £350+ bespoke experience.
I dont sell to retail that is why I'm priced at the level I am for my standard Grade 1s, that is regardless of how many I make, can make per day etc etc it is based on my time, total workshop costs, willow, handle, stickers, glue, sandpaper, tea, biscuits [Custard Creams prefered] gorilla etc....
If I made fewer bats why would I expect a bigger margin unless the demand was so high it justified it. The bespoke experience is high because it takes up about 4hrs, bespoke stickers etc etc
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Wow, that made more sense at 7:15!
I was trying to make a point about margins when supplying to retail but I guess that doesn't apply to you. I was thinking about it with my carpenter (day job) hat on. Say My retailer gives me a price for 10 bats then I would ideally like to turn those 10 bats out in such a time that I am getting paid right for the work.
If you are at the top of your game then I guess you can charge what you like. However the really pricey guys (M&H, top end Salix) aren't selling as many bats as the big players (GN G&M, etc) and I imagine they're doing ok, which I think was what I was getting at with my turnover/profit ramblings.
Customer demand is a factor, I agree. But demand is higher for cheaper (£150/£225) bats isn't it? I think perhaps my retailer was just upset at the prices in general at the moment. He was pricing G2 Salix at about £275 if memory serves correct. The other thing affecting him are boutique brands that can undercut him, "Selling out of their car boots" as he put it. I was upset that he took this view as I'd only gone in there in the first place to ask his advice on how I was best placed to get any bats I'd made into his shop, which is a respected specialist cricket shop that serves a lot of players in my area.
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Please also remember that the retailer has to add 20% VAT to all their prices which has a hugh impact on profit margins - i.e. on a £200 bat the prices broken down could be...
bat actual cost:
£60 - cleft, handle grip.
£10 stickers (yes stickers are very expensive - but do sell the bat)
£45 profit for bat maker (to cover investment, their costs, tools/press/time/workshop)
£45 to shop (rent, staff costs, National Insurance, bills, tea and buscuits)
£40 vat
that is a lot of bats you have to sell before you can even pay yourself a wage.
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Wow, that made more sense at 7:15!
I was trying to make a point about margins when supplying to retail but I guess that doesn't apply to you. I was thinking about it with my carpenter (day job) hat on. Say My retailer gives me a price for 10 bats then I would ideally like to turn those 10 bats out in such a time that I am getting paid right for the work.
If you are at the top of your game then I guess you can charge what you like. However the really pricey guys (M&H, top end Salix) aren't selling as many bats as the big players (GN G&M, etc) and I imagine they're doing ok, which I think was what I was getting at with my turnover/profit ramblings.
Customer demand is a factor, I agree. But demand is higher for cheaper (£150/£225) bats isn't it? I think perhaps my retailer was just upset at the prices in general at the moment. He was pricing G2 Salix at about £275 if memory serves correct. The other thing affecting him are boutique brands that can undercut him, "Selling out of their car boots" as he put it. I was upset that he took this view as I'd only gone in there in the first place to ask his advice on how I was best placed to get any bats I'd made into his shop, which is a respected specialist cricket shop that serves a lot of players in my area.
Boutique brands are not undercutting him unless they are selling the same product for less. they dont have the retailers profit to factor into their prices so of course they will be different. its also a different kind of product. boutique or off the shelf. its also worth taking into consideration that costs could well be alot different for the boutique brands. they buy in smaller volumes so in general costs will be more.
you will also find some retailers are just trying to make too much profit on the bats they sell. yes we all want to earn a living and pay our bills but some of the prices ive seen in the smaller shops are shocking! Yes factor in the 20% VAT but i have seen examples of bats where they are heavily inflated.they also have stiff competition from the mail order guys, although they hopefully offer more in terms of customer experience than mail order can.
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If a product is a simple commodity it is hard for any retailer to add value to that process.
However, if there is any requirement for advice, fitting, or anything else tangible then a retailer has an opportunity to add value how they see fit.
It is the skill of the retailer to suggest ways of adding value and developing a product/service which is not available in the sterile environment of a browser.
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I think there are a lot of things to consider.
First off, there are some brilliant bespoke makers on this site, and I don't think they could be classed as selling 'out of a car boot.'
Some of these guys offer a high level of involvement, from selecting the cleft and input during the making process etc. This can obviously be important in respect of pick up, shape, and finished, fully dressed weight. Obviously this is most effective if it is done during a visit to the maker's premises. And under these circumstances there is no excuse for you walking out of the door with a bat that is not exactly as you specified, as you have been part of the process.
I will admit that I haven't been part of such a process - maybe my day will come.
There is also the option of more remote involvement - giving the maker your specs and trusting to his judgement to produce exactly what you want. From what I gather, quite a few makers will contact buyers during the process with updates in respect of how the bat is coming along. Maybe with questions like: 'How important is the finished weight to you? The way this cleft is going I might not be able to give you the spine height and edge size that you requested at the weight you want. If you do want me to lose some weight, where do you prefer me to take it from?'
I have seen guys on this site post pics of some very good looking bats, but with the rider: 'I asked for weight X and what arrived was weight Y.'
It could have been that the bat was the stated weight 'undressed' but I would have thought that this would have been discussed before the bat was made.
In the case of the retailer, and ignoring his overheads for running premises, holding a good level of stock etc. What you get when you visit, is the opportunity to pick up and test a number of bats, before either selecting one or not bothering to buy anything. That opportunity in itself has value and is surely worth paying for.
What I'm trying to say is that everyone brings something to the party.
Obviously you wouldn't expect the same level of service at say Sports Direct, as you would from any of the retail guys on this site. But you cut your cloth accordingly.
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Please also remember that the retailer has to add 20% VAT to all their prices which has a hugh impact on profit margins - i.e. on a £200 bat the prices broken down could be...
bat actual cost:
£60 - cleft, handle grip.
£10 stickers (yes stickers are very expensive - but do sell the bat)
£45 profit for bat maker (to cover investment, their costs, tools/press/time/workshop)
£45 to shop (rent, staff costs, National Insurance, bills, tea and buscuits)
£40 vat
that is a lot of bats you have to sell before you can even pay yourself a wage.
Is it really 60GBP for the cleft though if you are buying from a willow supplier in decent quantity which I assume all full time batmakers do?
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I have a land rover so dont really have a boot to sell from more of gate type thing :D
Got to go now because I assume I have someone there banging the door down looking to stock bats ;)
PS Tush you're off topic ;)
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I have a land rover so dont really have a boot to sell from more of gate type thing :D
Got to go now because I assume I have someone there banging the door down looking to stock bats ;)
PS Tush you're off topic ;)
Maybe a little bit but I think when it comes to prices and since we are discussing what constitutes that price I am kinda justified to ask, aren't I? regardless like many other things in cricket industry standardization would be ideal but we keep dreaming & hoping....
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Maybe a little bit but I think when it comes to prices and since we are discussing what constitutes that price I am kinda justified to ask, aren't I?
Ok fair enough
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Ok fair enough
:) thanks...
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Please also remember that the retailer has to add 20% VAT to all their prices which has a hugh impact on profit margins - i.e. on a £200 bat the prices broken down could be...
bat actual cost:
£60 - cleft, handle grip.
£10 stickers (yes stickers are very expensive - but do sell the bat)
£45 profit for bat maker (to cover investment, their costs, tools/press/time/workshop)
£45 to shop (rent, staff costs, National Insurance, bills, tea and buscuits)
£40 vat
that is a lot of bats you have to sell before you can even pay yourself a wage.
The profit for the shop must be more than 22.5%; after all, Paul was able to run a 30% off list price promotion and, given he was quite amenable to buying stock in for the purpose, cannot have been making a loss on that figure...
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In which case my rough numbers aren't all that great - maybe the cleft and handle can be a little cheaper... I should have disclaimed my estimates!!
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In which case my rough numbers aren't all that great - maybe the cleft and handle can be a little cheaper... I should have disclaimed my estimates!!
I understand they are estimates but I have seen that number before as well for the cost of cleft...I guess if someone is buying a handled and pressed cleft then that price is closer...
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At the end of the day 99.9% of retailers are in it to make a really good wage. Not just 15/20k a year but they are looking for a lot more. Plus ideally they will want someone else to run it and then they can get a wage for doing nothing. As long as people realise that is most of their aims you have to assume all pricing is inflated.
Of course, the real trick is either accepting this and paying or finding a retailer who actually is selling to make a living rather than make really good money etc.
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Dont demonize the Retailer, the bat companies need them as well to increase awareness and there overall footfall
It is give and take this scenario
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I'm not. I'm purely saying people can't expect rock bottom prices as retailers have to make it worth while to be there. Plus, seeing as most do it as their business they want to make a 'good' wage rather than just a living wage (so 30k+ rather than 20k ish).
I don't blame them in the slightest, if people are willing to pay then why not. Like I said, the trick for the consumer is to find the retailer that gives them products they want, at prices they want.
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I understand they are estimates but I have seen that number before as well for the cost of cleft...I guess if someone is buying a handled and pressed cleft then that price is closer...
depending on the source of the cleft and the grading that £60 is pretty spot on really when your considering the handle, grip and binding as well within that cost. thats for the regular bat makers who buy in bulk. for the smaller ones your probably adding on atleast £20-25 minimum to that cost.
when you factor in the time (4 hours or so from a handled cleft), set up costs (initial outlay for willow, stickers, workshop/machinery/tools/general costs etc) and additional materials (glue, sandpaper etc) there really isnt much in it for alot of bat makers.
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I think that a lot of retailers would suggest that the only way to make a small fortune from selling cricket gear is to start off with a large fortune...
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I think that a lot of retailers would suggest that the only way to make a small fortune from selling cricket gear is to start off with a large fortune...
I'll let you know in a few years, see if that's true.
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this could end peacefully... :o
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I did post a rough calculation the other day on a different topic, but can't find it now ... if you do the numbers on the following assumptions, you'll see there is not much margin for retailers:
RRP = £100 inc VAT
Trade = £55 + VAT
Selling price = £80 inc VAT
Take away costs and do the sums on what VAT you can claim and what you have to give away, see what you're left with
There is a decent profit to be had if everyone managed to sell at RRP.
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I think that a lot of retailers would suggest that the only way to make a small fortune from selling cricket gear is to start off with a large fortune...
I'd have to agree ... Sports Direct make a net profit of around 10% which is not a lot ... but when your sales are $200m+, that gives you a $20m+ profit ... quite tidy. You have to have the money up front to set up a Sports Direct though.
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I'll let you know in a few years, see if that's true.
Quote from WC Fields to a man in a bar: 'Three years ago I arrived in this town, with only the clothes I stood up in and a sack over my shoulder. Now, I own the biggest hotel in town, an automobile concession, several stores, and a controlling interest in a new golf course that is under construction.'
Man in bar: 'What was in the sack?'
WC Fields: 'three million dollars.'