Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: tim2000s on April 12, 2013, 08:04:57 AM
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There was a question in the batmaker's shed to Ryan as to how he graded his bats. His response was that there he does it on looks as each individual piece of willow is pressed differently.
I put it to the forum that there is no such thing as performance grading. That grading should simply be about looks, and that with careful pressing by the batmaker there will be no real difference in performance. Where something is described as "Performance Grade 1" it is simply an ugly piece of willow that the batmaker wishes to charge more for, and that anyone finding a make with "performance grading" should simply haggle the price of an ugly bat down.
Grading is simply about being able to charge more for beauty...
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Brimble used the performance grading line a few times....
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Brimble used the performance grading line a few times....
Leave the Evil Dark Lord out of this - I think he is a little bit of a one off, for better or worse - not that I am agreeing with with what he said/did, just that he isn't a great example.
Going back to the original point from Tim.
I totally agree and I think you have made the point very succinctly!
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Agree mostly with the exception of the clefts which are light ( of course not over dried).
I would personally grade them above a nice looking cleft providing both the clefts have the same response.
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Agree mostly with the exception of the clefts which are light ( of course not over dried).
I would personally grade them above a nice looking cleft providing both the clefts have the same response.
So, if I have a really ugly but low density cleft, can I pass it off as grade 1? All that low density means is that you get a bigger bat for the same weight. It doesn't make it any more beautiful. It also doesn't make it perform any better. The pressing is what is important for that.
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So, if I have a really ugly but low density cleft, can I pass it off as grade 1? All that low density means is that you get a bigger bat for the same weight. It doesn't make it any more beautiful. It also doesn't make it perform any better. The pressing is what is important for that.
lol no sorry time all timber is graded on looks I love butterfly willow it works very well but its not grade 1
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I know SCAT's are graded on performance. But is that because his clefts are already pressed and has less control over the pressing on each cleft? I know this very topic was hotly debated when Jason raised it...
In theory, careful pressing should yield good performing bats each time. But pressing is not something that can be undone. With willow being an organic material, you really don't know how it will perform until you have actually pressed it.
There's a theory going around about straight/perpendicular toe grains being the sign of a good performing bat. I don't know if this is true or not but surely this affects how a cleft responds to being pressed - ie a cleft with diagonal toe grains would press differently to a cleft with perpendicular toe grains?
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So, if I have a really ugly but low density cleft, can I pass it off as grade 1? All that low density means is that you get a bigger bat for the same weight. It doesn't make it any more beautiful. It also doesn't make it perform any better. The pressing is what is important for that.
I did mention that the "provided both bats have same performance"
I will rate the lighter cleft higher than a grade 1 cleft. This is my personal opinion.
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I love butterfly willow it works very well
me too and bats with graping... I always think that these make the best value bats
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There was a question in the batmaker's shed to Ryan as to how he graded his bats. His response was that there he does it on looks as each individual piece of willow is pressed differently.
I put it to the forum that there is no such thing as performance grading. That grading should simply be about looks, and that with careful pressing by the batmaker there will be no real difference in performance. Where something is described as "Performance Grade 1" it is simply an ugly piece of willow that the batmaker wishes to charge more for, and that anyone finding a make with "performance grading" should simply haggle the price of an ugly bat down.
Grading is simply about being able to charge more for beauty...
Nothing to add on that pure marketing abit like hand picked to a degree as well load of tosh.
It us who hand pick the bats when we buy them and still even then were taking a gamble
Some right marketing tools being used what next we on the forum have better bats than a non forum member I bet some of you look at your mates bats and think yours are superior
Great post and great honesty
Butterfly stain around the toe
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Grading is simple about straight lines and the equal spacing plain and simple.
If it performance what wrong with the other bats they sell are non performance
If they can do it with a ugly bat why not a belter
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me too and bats with graping... I always think that these make the best value bats
i love bats with graping, they always seem to go better due to the stiffer willow around the graping.
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Anyway, since when did the industry invent a foolproof method for judging future performance of new bats? As far as I know they haven't, so it's another reason (to add to Tim's) why grading on performance is nothing more than a method to sell ugly bats for more money.
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Smaller brands are able to press bats individually, when i say individually i mean to their optimum, not using the same pressure for each blade.
I'd dare to say that no one on this forum would pay £200+ for a well pressed grade 2/3 bat. However, you would for a lovely straight grained blade with the same performance.
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me too and bats with graping... I always think that these make the best value bats
I love mine I have two I not one of these to worry about 100 grains 200 mm edges spine height of 350mm lol I just want bat that feels good in my hands oval ish handle picks up nice so I try and bat all day and about 2lb 10 oz ish one grip. But all in all the more grains you have the more chance you have of it being a good bat not saying every one will be as the pressing has to be good and done wright all are bats get same treatment weather a grade 1 or grade 3 and I have sold match range of bats that have played just as well as test grade bats just depends on how each person feels as batting is a mentel thing if you don't feel right you 90 percent of the time fail.
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All marketing tools.
We like to think there more to bats than there is.
Doesn't matter anyway if the user is dud then so will any bat
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I also think that swell position is key, you could have a lovely looking/ performing bat but if you cant find the middle then its useless.
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Coverage comes into then for me not strength that's why I am slowly moving away from concaved bats it offers a line down the bat but I want width to my middle I guess that's why off set edges helps to a degree.
For me the most interesting shapes currently are convex which in truth should offer a bigger coverage
I find where not pro's it about coverage massively how often do we middle the ball as asad says every little helps
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This is something that I was going to do a topic on soon. Over the last year or so, I have seen 90% of bats on this forum being sold as Grade 1s or LE's. Most of these bats are grade 2/3's being passed on as G1s.
I rarely see a genuine grade 1 bat on this forum. The LE tag or G1+ bat is just rubbish. Grade 1 is top of the line willow full stop. The best willow should be sold as grade 1 and then there should be gems of bats in the grade 1s.
MSR is the only bat company who sells genuine graded willow. Too many people are sucked into performance willow. Performance willow is only a term used to describe ugly willow being sold at an inflated price.
I received a small shipment of bats from India during the week from a manufacturer which are graded from 1 to 6. I could easily pass half of it off as grade 1s if I wanted to. Afterall only a small percentage of willow leaves wrights as Grade 1 so you do the math as to why you see so many grade 1 bats floating around
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You would tend to think that anyone making bats that claims they grade on performance, is digging a bit of a hole for themselves.
Who would want to buy a bat that is rated an inferior performer, no matter how good it looks?
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This is something that I was going to do a topic on soon. Over the last year or so, I have seen 90% of bats on this forum being sold as Grade 1s or LE's. Most of these bats are grade 2/3's being passed on as G1s.
I rarely see a genuine grade 1 bat on this forum. The LE tag or G1+ bat is just rubbish. Grade 1 is top of the line willow full stop. The best willow should be sold as grade 1 and then there should be gems of bats in the grade 1s.
MSR is the only bat company who sells genuine graded willow. Too many people are sucked into performance willow. Performance willow is only a term used to describe ugly willow being sold at an inflated price.
I received a small shipment of bats from India during the week from a manufacturer which are graded from 1 to 6. I could easily pass half of it off as grade 1s if I wanted to. Afterall only a small percentage of willow leaves wrights as Grade 1 so you do the math as to why you see so many grade 1 bats floating around
It surely is a topic been mentioned before mate about people on here over grading but it so blatant and it funny you see people with there usual wow comments when some know it not a grade 1yet the great comments flow because it a forum sponsor.
I hear grade 1 true grade 1 is getting harder to get.
Does it only matter because of the price or because of the looks....
Only thing that does my head in when you know somebody has been sold something it not.
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You would tend to think that anyone making bats that claims they grade on performance, is digging a bit of a hole for themselves.
Who would want to buy a bat that is rated an inferior performer, no matter how good it looks?
Indeed, I'd be more inclined to buy the ugly but a goer so it's priced like a G1, the these same companies also tried to sell good looking bats at G3 prices because they we total planks!
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I thought the term had changed from "performance grade" to "pro's bats"
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I love Laver's description for their special reserve.
For the Special Reserve clefts, we are not looking for straight grains but simply for the clefts that hit the ball the furthest. If power is what you are looking for then the Special Reserve is likely to be the bat for you.
Mine looks ace and it has a wonderful middle
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Smaller brands are able to press bats individually, when i say individually i mean to their optimum, not using the same pressure for each blade.
I'd dare to say that no one on this forum would pay £200+ for a well pressed grade 2/3 bat. However, you would for a lovely straight grained blade with the same performance.
Have to agree with this. If you cnnot grade a bat on its performance what's the point of taking the time to press bats to the optimum level?????
For years Richard Wensley did that and never sold bats on looks. He had one price for pretty much every bat and knew which bat went the best, if I ever picked up a bat because it looked goof he would always point me to another which had a better response, or visa versa with an uglier bat.
Why has everything changed???
My match bat last year was a 6 grainer from Rob, I trusted him when he sent it because he presses the BRa individually and guess what... It's an absolute belter.
I don't know why people get so hung up on looks and grains and edge size etc etc.
And I disagree that a bat maker cannot grade on performance, simply because the man who makes my Bats does it, and if people weren't so hung up on aesthetics they'd see that great bats are missed because they aren't picture perfect!!
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I hear grade 1 true grade 1 is getting harder to get.
Does it only matter because of the price or because of the looks....
I've been told the same thing. But again, its down to grading on aesthetics and price always comes into it.
The ones benefiting now are those who grow their own willow. I suppose it also gives them a power to grade how they please, some may take advantage of it, others won't.
All comes down to the manufacturer
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I've had SR bats from Laver, which have performed better than some G2 and G1 bats I've had, but I guess I could say the same about other lower graded bats I have experienced. I think that grading on performance is a little misleading, I think that perhaps if there is an extra special bat that isn't a grade 1, then you should put it in a performance grade, but only if there are very few of them. It's basically an easy way to sell G3 bats for G1/2 prices, . I think that you should sell the bats in the grades you buy them as in cleft form, and maybe have G1/2/3 model, then a premium model, which is the very best one or two G1 clefts from a selection of 20 or something. If a bat isn't up to the performance that a G1 should have, then downgrade it. If it performs better than a G3, then keep it as a grade three, or if it is a VERY special one, then put it in a performance grade, which has a price point in between a G1 and G2. (Again, the performance grade has to be very limited in quantity)
Of course, this is my thinking, and I have no clue as to how the bat making industry is run. I only know what I'm told, and that may not be true, and I can only guess as to how much profit there is in bat making. Maybe some bat makers are having to sell more performance graded bats because they wouldn't earn enough without that kind of advertising. :-[
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I have two Screaming Cats and I sort of agree with Tim.
I have always said that irrespectively the grade, each bat will play as well as another at one point. The peak take time for fewer grain ones but the performance at its peak would be same as Grade1 more grain ones. That's my observation after going through heaps of bats.
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It's just a fashion thing, grains are in this summer.
No doubt we'll be going back to bleached bats in another 10 years. "15 straight grains, but its unbleached so it's only grade 2"
Bats can only ever be graded on looks, but I agree that if a batmaker finds a knotty 5 grainer that he's pressed to perfection and it goes like a rocket (off the mallet), they should be allowed to charge a little extra for it.
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I hear grade 1 true grade 1 is getting harder to get.
Does it only matter because of the price or because of the looks....
When you purchase a bulk cleft order from JS Wrights only 4% will be true grade one willow, the grade one clefts are getting harder and harder to come by and that 4% will drop further over the coming years.
I do sort of agree with there being no performance willow,one thing on this though is that I have seen first hand Andrew Kember go through 25+ clefts knocking them with a mallet etc to find the one that is suitable for a players grade for example. Now there may be an argument that this will play no better in the long run as a performance grade bat, but there is a noticeable difference between clefts of the mallet at the start. So if something goes like a train from ball 1 does that bat then become a performance bat?
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When you purchase a bulk cleft order from JS Wrights only 4% will be true grade one willow, the grade one clefts are getting harder and harder to come by and that 4% will drop further over the coming years.
I do sort of agree with there being no performance willow,one thing on this though is that I have seen first hand Andrew Kember go through 25+ clefts knocking them with a mallet etc to find the one that is suitable for a players grade for example. Now there may be an argument that this will play no better in the long run as a performance grade bat, but there is a noticeable difference between clefts of the mallet at the start. So if something goes like a train from ball 1 does that bat then become a performance bat?
and thats why the price of grade ones is higher
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interestingly, or not, during my 20 years of using a Warsop I never bought a bat on it's look.
We always picked one with the right balance and ping.
It's only since I came here did my inner grain fetish appear.
I'm not saying I'm right, but I've had 20 years of decent cricket and have never counted a grain. I could have had 4 grains from all I know.
I do sway toward performance over looks and feel you can grade a bat on 'potential' performance.
Having said that, I'm not a bat maker, just the organic thing who enjoys a mad swing (pun intended).
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People are slowly turning this into something it not facts
1 real grade 1 bats do not perform any better than any other grade in theory
2 grade 1 is a subjective grade as nobody really grades the same
3 but for the grade 1 people charge the most but based on ??
4 performance grading why are not all models performance
5 if not to above then every bat below the performance is it a duffer.
As I have said it marketing a bit like the spike in laminated lets be honest good or not it a good way of getting rid of grade 2-3 bats and selling them at a premium just the same as performance grading
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For me Bats are like woman. You grade them by looks initially before you even know what their performance will be like. You may get lucky, have a loopker who may be responsive in all areas, cooking, cleaning, hoovering and they all usually all have a good middle although some turn out to be disappointing. some just look good but they are a plank when it comes to getting any use out of them.
Based on the above bats should be graded on performance but you cant tell yhis by tapping a mallet a few timrs, therefore its sensible fir it to be done on how they look.
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For me Bats are like woman. You grade them by looks initially before you even know what their performance will be like. You may get lucky, have a loopker who may be responsive in all areas, cooking, cleaning, hoovering and they all usually all have a good middle although some turn out to be disappointing. some just look good but they are a plank when it comes to getting any use out of them.
Based on the above bats should be graded on performance but you cant tell yhis by tapping a mallet a few timrs, therefore its sensible fir it to be done on how they look.
Hahaha yeah I've had a few like this. Not talking about bats either
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For me Bats are like woman. You grade them by looks initially before you even know what their performance will be like. You may get lucky, have a loopker who may be responsive in all areas, cooking, cleaning, hoovering and they all usually all have a good middle although some turn out to be disappointing. some just look good but they are a plank when it comes to getting any use out of them.
That's the best summing up I've ever seen of bats.. :) Love it!
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Over the last year or so there has been a growing trend for bat makers to declare that they have graded certain clefts as performance clefts. Now I have seen some bats made from these which truly are spectacular performers, infact I know of a bat maker openly rejecting perfect 10 grain clefts as they are not performing how he wants them to perform.
On the other hand I have seen some shockers. In my opinion one company is putting out a lot of under 5 grain pieces of firewood under the idea of a "performance cleft" and relying on the reputation of the bat maker for people to assume that if they say the bat will be a top performer then that will be what it will be!
The other day I saw a bat which a very well known bat maker, had listed as a performance cleft. 5 grains widely spread, but obviously had been quite low density as had a massive spine. However it was a hard hard piece of wood, with a horrible sound to it. This "performance" based bat was taken to two other bat makers who both declared that it was not up to standard and even after a lot of playing in, would only be a average bat. Now as much as there is nothing wrong with average, when you are paying close to £300 you deserve a little better than that. - On top of that this well known bat maker has refused a refund telling the customer to keep using it!
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Over the last year or so there has been a growing trend for bat makers to declare that they have graded certain clefts as performance clefts. Now I have seen some bats made from these which truly are spectacular performers, infact I know of a bat maker openly rejecting perfect 10 grain clefts as they are not performing how he wants them to perform.
On the other hand I have seen some shockers. In my opinion one company is putting out a lot of under 5 grain pieces of firewood under the idea of a "performance cleft" and relying on the reputation of the bat maker for people to assume that if they say the bat will be a top performer then that will be what it will be!
The other day I saw a bat which a very well known bat maker, had listed as a performance cleft. 5 grains widely spread, but obviously had been quite low density as had a massive spine. However it was a hard hard piece of wood, with a horrible sound to it. This "performance" based bat was taken to two other bat makers who both declared that it was not up to standard and even after a lot of playing in, would only be a average bat. Now as much as there is nothing wrong with average, when you are paying close to £300 you deserve a little better than that. - On top of that this well known bat maker has refused a refund telling the customer to keep using it!
Well name and shame.. Hearsay and conjecture is no good
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My rule of thumb is that if it doesn't look like a G1 cleft then it isn't so pay accordingly! Anyone can buy a duff bat. I've had a few. If makers can't pick out the duff bats when they're making them how can they pick out the great ones and grade them on 'performance'? Don't believe the hype! :D
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Over the last year or so there has been a growing trend for bat makers to declare that they have graded certain clefts as performance clefts. Now I have seen some bats made from these which truly are spectacular performers, infact I know of a bat maker openly rejecting perfect 10 grain clefts as they are not performing how he wants them to perform.
On the other hand I have seen some shockers. In my opinion one company is putting out a lot of under 5 grain pieces of firewood under the idea of a "performance cleft" and relying on the reputation of the bat maker for people to assume that if they say the bat will be a top performer then that will be what it will be!
The other day I saw a bat which a very well known bat maker, had listed as a performance cleft. 5 grains widely spread, but obviously had been quite low density as had a massive spine. However it was a hard hard piece of wood, with a horrible sound to it. This "performance" based bat was taken to two other bat makers who both declared that it was not up to standard and even after a lot of playing in, would only be a average bat. Now as much as there is nothing wrong with average, when you are paying close to £300 you deserve a little better than that. - On top of that this well known bat maker has refused a refund telling the customer to keep using it!
M&H?
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Is it any different though than performance laminates or any laminates
Or as I say a cheap way of getting rid of lower grade wood at a premium.
Think about it why do laminates have nice faces why not horrible lookers we all know you can't judge a bat by the grains so why are all laminates from a certain source nice.
I tell you it a cheap way of selling lower grade bats at a premium nothing more
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Is it any different though than performance laminates or any laminates
Or as I say a cheap way of getting rid of lower grade wood at a premium.
Think about it why do laminates have nice faces why not horrible lookers we all know you can't judge a bat by the grains so why are all laminates from a certain source nice.
I tell you it a cheap way of selling lower grade bats at a premium nothing more
I agree mate, however the extra work that making a lam entails probably bumps up the price significantly so maybe they use a great looking face to help justify the extra cost? Just a thought?
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If I am not mistaken laminates are sold at a premium price due to their performance and not the looks ?
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to be fair, it (lam) might also be a way of reducing wasteage levels in respect of clefts.
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Rubbish ask any batmaker about laminates there no increase in power or anything performance balony it a way of splitting a grade 1 into 4 then adding grade 3-4 clefts then selling for grade 1 and more often then not higher than grade 1 prices
If you look around the forum or ask there a real shortage of grade 1 clefts currently ask any maker supplier so it a sure fire way of making more money but if you want to go on think in your getting something super because it a laminate keep spending away.
Laminates in my eyes are worst than performance clefts because in truth if you realy really think about it the awnser is looking at you
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to be fair, it (lam) might also be a way of reducing wasteage levels in respect of clefts.
What and charging a premium to do so stop thinking batmakers or forum sponsors are you mates some might be it about doller
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Well, you'd also tend to think that there might be a bit more work put into a lam. Personally I can't see why anyone would buy one due to restrictions for use etc.
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But there lies the problem there not that much more work but think about it
Grade 4 bat 90 pound
Laminate same cleft bit of glue 275 pound with a grade 1 face attached.
More more yes but justify price not a chance
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true if that is the price difference. I don't know 'cos I'm not in the market for a lam so don't track prices.
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As tempting as it is to name and shame the bat maker on here, I don't think it would be for the best, but they do carry one of the best reputations, however if you think about the bats they have been turning out, and the fuss that is made when they do have a nice cleft you can work it out!
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Rubbish ask any batmaker about laminates there no increase in power or anything performance balony it a way of splitting a grade 1 into 4 then adding grade 3-4 clefts then selling for grade 1 and more often then not higher than grade 1 prices
If you look around the forum or ask there a real shortage of grade 1 clefts currently ask any maker supplier so it a sure fire way of making more money but if you want to go on think in your getting something super because it a laminate keep spending away.
Laminates in my eyes are worst than performance clefts because in truth if you realy really think about it the awnser is looking at you
i think i worte the exact same thing somewhere else.
If you are going to go to the trouble of creating an illegal bat by removign the face why not cork it or stick something in the middle of it to make it lighter or have more spring???
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Over the last year or so there has been a growing trend for bat makers to declare that they have graded certain clefts as performance clefts. Now I have seen some bats made from these which truly are spectacular performers, infact I know of a bat maker openly rejecting perfect 10 grain clefts as they are not performing how he wants them to perform.
On the other hand I have seen some shockers. In my opinion one company is putting out a lot of under 5 grain pieces of firewood under the idea of a "performance cleft" and relying on the reputation of the bat maker for people to assume that if they say the bat will be a top performer then that will be what it will be!
The other day I saw a bat which a very well known bat maker, had listed as a performance cleft. 5 grains widely spread, but obviously had been quite low density as had a massive spine. However it was a hard hard piece of wood, with a horrible sound to it. This "performance" based bat was taken to two other bat makers who both declared that it was not up to standard and even after a lot of playing in, would only be a average bat. Now as much as there is nothing wrong with average, when you are paying close to £300 you deserve a little better than that. - On top of that this well known bat maker has refused a refund telling the customer to keep using it!
Hi Ciaran. We are more than happy for you to mention our names in this instance and I am sure that you are referring to the Legacy bat purchased by a customer of ours from Kent.
If this is the case then I advise you to speak to the customer in question again as we have already started work on his replacement and he is more than happy with the arrangement. I think it is important to ensure that facts are correct before posting on public forums.
If a customer is unhappy with the performance of one of our bats then we always recommend using them a good number of times before consigning it to the scrap heap. This is due to many factors, the main one being that it can take a while to get used to a new bat (especially one with a new type of handle).
We admit that James does not get every bat absolutely perfect and this is why we operate one of the most comprehensive after sales services in the industry. We always aim to look after every single customer who works with us and this will certainly be the case in this instance too.
Our Special Reserves are our most popular model in the UK market and the vast majority of feedback we receive is completely positive. It's a shame that you have heard different but such is life. We will continue to do everything we can for our customers going forward.
I hope that everyone has a great weekend and good luck out in the middle. Andy
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Hi Ciaran. We are more than happy for you to mention our names in this instance and I am sure that you are referring to the Legacy bat purchased by a customer of ours from Kent.
If this is the case then I advise you to speak to the customer in question again as we have already started work on his replacement and he is more than happy with the arrangement. I think it is important to ensure that facts are correct before posting on public forums.
If a customer is unhappy with the performance of one of our bats then we always recommend using them a good number of times before consigning it to the scrap heap. This is due to many factors, the main one being that it can take a while to get used to a new bat (especially one with a new type of handle).
We admit that James does not get every bat absolutely perfect and this is why we operate one of the most comprehensive after sales services in the industry. We always aim to look after every single customer who works with us and this will certainly be the case in this instance too.
Our Special Reserves are our most popular model in the UK market and the vast majority of feedback we receive is completely positive. It's a shame that you have heard different but such is life. We will continue to do everything we can for our customers going forward.
I hope that everyone has a great weekend and good luck out in the middle. Andy
Andy, I will PM you regarding this.
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Totally back Andy up on this. L&W offers the best after sales service. Always patient, polite and quick with replies. Not sure how many others out there guarantee what they sell the way they do.
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Such a shame they're on the other side of the planet! :D
I have to say that L&W weren't the first name to spring to mind in relation to this topic though.......
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Such a shame they're on the other side of the planet! :D
I have to say that L&W weren't the first name to spring to mind in relation to this topic though.......
Even though I agree with sentiments expressed about performance clefts and lams, L&W service is second to none. You are bound to get a dud every now and then but this is where L&W shine and are miles ahead of competition.
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Laver and wood customer service is up there with the best the best on this forum by a country mile.
I have not always seen eye to eye with laver wood but do support they make great bats and have always looked after people if there not happy and done in a win win situation.
Andy is a very good salesman and the options given if your not happy is a credit to him and laver and wood even if I don't always agree with them.
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After 3 awesome L&W's I will gladly buy another without any hesitation
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Agree with the positive comments about L&W. they are great!