Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: tim2000s on April 12, 2013, 09:01:38 AM
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Low density and high density. Performance willow. Grading.
But which batmaker has a very heavy cleft that they don't think they could sell and can make me a properly pressed and shaped bat that weighs in at 2lb 10oz fully dressed, but which is going to have 1970's dimensions? I'll send you photos of the shape I'd like...
I can then use it in the nets, and give my opinion over whether cleft density really matters. I have some opinions, but I'd like to give it a shot.
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I have got some pretty heavy clefts, I bought as grade 1. It doesn't matter what I think of them as a batmaker but what matter is what the buyer is willing to buy and what are his specifications.
Usual demands start with dead weight and then edge size, spine size and much more apart from the desired profile, leaving very little in the hands of a batmaker.
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Low density and high density. Performance willow. Grading.
But which batmaker has a very heavy cleft that they don't think they could sell and can make me a properly pressed and shaped bat that weighs in at 2lb 10oz fully dressed, but which is going to have 1970's dimensions? I'll send you photos of the shape I'd like...
I can then use it in the nets, and give my opinion over whether cleft density really matters. I have some opinions, but I'd like to give it a shot.
Now THAT is an interesting project.
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If i didn't make it clear, I am willing to pay for the bat... If there any takers with a particularly dense cleft...
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3 lb 7.4 ounce part made cleft with 35 mm edges and 60 mm spine in it's current state. Since it's a part made, plenty of wood is already taken out. Supplied to me as grade 1 pressed really well though.
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ryan has a stupid heavy cleft!!! he wont sell but this might be up to the job
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ryan has a stupid heavy cleft!!! he wont sell but this might be up to the job
I'd of given you it Tim but I've promised it to Dave...sorry
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I have a cleft that would fit the bill - drop me a pm if you're interested. As a 'modern' batmaker, it would be a genuine challenge to recreate a shape that isn't widely seen or used nowadays.
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any pics of your skills dom?
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I'm generally not a huge picture taker - will get some up on a separate topic in the not so distant future, some of the workshop, stickers and setup etc. don't want to hi-jack tims thread though. Be interested to hear Tims theory on why he is doing this....is there method behind the madness?
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tim give gary a call he will make you one as that was right in time when i was working at county
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I'm generally not a huge picture taker - will get some up on a separate topic in the not so distant future, some of the workshop, stickers and setup etc. don't want to hi-jack tims thread though. Be interested to hear Tims theory on why he is doing this....is there method behind the madness?
From discussions with various people, willow in a bat is effectively a hard trampoline layer with a drum underneath it created by the tubes that are the fibres of the wood. In a more dense cleft, these fibres a presumably smaller and more tightly packed.
Conservation of momentum is achieved transferring energy on impact.
Theoretically, two bats of similar weight and with a profile that is consistent should allow this to take place in a similar fashion, but in doing this we get to find out whether cleft density really is important in bat performance because if we are taking a very extreme version of dense, and it performs then we know that bat (and therefore swing) weight is more important than the willow.
of course, pressing is important in this and the pressing on the cleft needs to be what the batmaker considers to be optimum .
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Right then. I have a bat made from denser willow on the way... This will be interesting!
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Please make sure you tell us the result this is something I have been thinking aswell
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Phase two of this little project has arrived with the bat being made according to the model, which is the Laver and wood Heritage. The two bats are 0.2 ounces apart in weight, but the dense willow has created something with a very different size.
On bouncing a ball and mallet on them there is not a vast amount of difference, which knocking in may change. So, the little challenge gets a whole lot more interesting.
(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr293/tim2000s/NX1000/SAM_0051_zpsfec9ce36.jpg)
(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr293/tim2000s/NX1000/SAM_0050_zpsf65fb613.jpg)
(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr293/tim2000s/NX1000/SAM_0049_zps2df18574.jpg)
(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr293/tim2000s/NX1000/SAM_0048_zpsd1c87169.jpg)
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there's a bit of a hunts county about the DS
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there's a bit of a hunts county about the DS
little bit of Reflex in that toe.
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Indeed it does have a duck bill...
Interestingly, even with a duck bill, the spine is substantially less than the Heritage.
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Six weeks later, and the dense cleft bat has been substantially knocked in and tested against Bola balls and with real balls, and I have drawn my conclusions... More to follow!
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looking forward to this :D
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Spill the beans already! :)
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I've been up all night waiting !
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Well, you've seen the pictures of the two bats. There is a noticeable difference in the volume of willow that each contains, although the masses are just 0.2oz apart.
But what of using them? In three parts:
Knocking in/tapping up with a mallet
Quite honestly, I couldn't feel a difference. Both have decent, long middles, both rebounded very nicely off the mallet. At this stage of the test, it's made next to no difference.
Use against a Bola
Again, both are good bats, both pressed slightly differently, but to me and the others who used them, no discernible difference when middling one, and very little difference in sweet spot coverage, only down towards the toe, where shape will make the difference.
Use against real cricket balls
This is the one that everyone really wants to know. How do the two bats compare against real cricket balls. This has been done in two ways. Hitting thrown balls and facing bowlers. In neither was I able to categorically state that one performed better than the other. There felt like no difference between the two. Both are decent grade willow, both are pressed well according to the characteristics of the cleft, and both hit cricket balls in a way that, if you're a good batsman, will score you runs.
Conclusion
Here's what you've all been waiting for.
The size of the bat doesn't matter!
While this may be very disappointing to many people, the basic physics of it are that, for properly pressed willow, a mass is moving in one direction, impacting a mass moving in the opposite direction. The change in force is related for the most part to the speed and the mass directly, followed by the characteristics of the material.
As the mass and bat speed play the greatest part, whether the willow is high or low density makes next to no difference, as the physical characteristics of willow are common. If it is pressed sub-optimally, I have no doubt that there will be an impact on performance, and likewise, a laminate is changing the physical characteristics of willow, so may change the performance. Density, though, really makes no physical difference to what you wield.
The only good reason I can give for people hitting better with larger bats is that they inspire confidence in a different way.
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Interesting findings, i had a Chase in for a refurb that was tiny but weigh 2'14. No noticeable difference when tapping up compared to a Biggest Kahuna at similar weight. My findings aren't as thorough as yours and the bats are not the same shape and i can't comment on the pressing, but interesting nonetheless.
I bet everyone still wants the bigger bat though ;)
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Nice try Tim but nobody is falling for it ;)
I think the main issue here is the weight of the wood is the same, whether it be dense or lightweight. A 2'10 is a 2'10 whether it look huge or tiny and given the same batmaking process will perform the same.
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I'd just like to say thanks for putting your hand in your pocket for this experiment Tim. ;)
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Nice work Tim! This is something I've been curious about. But given the choice of two bats, I'd prob still pick the chunkier one. Like you said it's more a confidence thing.
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That's great data Tim. Like trypew, said thanks for opening up your pocket for this experiment.
i hate doing this, but i have to play devil's advocate for a moment. the laver has fewer grains (6) while the custom DS has around 10. Do you think the higher grain count might have made the bat face stiffer, thus making the transfer of momentum a bit more efficient?
on a related note, having tapped up a pro bat recently (made from a low density cleft), i have to agree with what many others have already indicated on this forum - it is not the bat but the person wielding it that makes all the difference. the pro bat certainly looked big for the weight and picked up a treat, but it was really his bat speed and timing that consistently kept sending the ball a lot farther compared to the rest of us. the sobering truth is that we would be much better off spending our money on better practice / coaching / fitness rather than this quest for the holy grail of bats.
case closed? somehow i doubt that. some addictions are hard to cure :-[
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the lavery looks to have a longer middle than the ds imo.
bats of same weight regardless off density may perform similar.
but with a lighter cleft you can move the wood around into areas to create larger longer middle. less concaving for a wider middle with larger edges.
id say if The experiment was repeated with a larger edged modern shape bat. the heavy cleft would perform substantial different due to concaving needed to create a similar profile
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I think you'd find that if you made a flat bat with no spine that weighed the same as a similarly pressed modern bat with huge edges, you'd find that actually, it makes no difference. Just like people who use the scoop find....
But then, as we know, it's much less to do with the bat and much more to do with the player
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which leaves one question.
if you do believe your findings and the bats are the same. why sell the ds? would it not make financial sense to sell the laver as people will be willing to pay more for it.
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which leaves one question.
if you do believe your findings and the bats are the same. why sell the ds? would it not make financial sense to sell the laver as people will be willing to pay more for it.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121170259186?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121170259186?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649)