Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Players => Topic started by: wasted_talent on October 21, 2013, 08:20:03 AM
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Moeen Ali had a superb season this, and now has won a call up to the Lions squad. I was wondering if people have seen much of him? And if so, what is their view on him? Does he have what it takes to make it on the international stage as a batting all rounder? As by all accounts, his off spin apparently has improved rapidly over the last 12 months... Thoughts?
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My favourite player to watch - there was a fantastic interview with him on cricinfo by George Dobell. He has signed a longterm contract with Worcs, which to some seemed strange, but his justification is a well-reasoned and mature one.
Very languid and easy on the eye. I didn't get to see him play this year, but apparently he has tightened his technique up.
The interview has much to do with the fact that if England were touring the subcontinent then he would be a strong candidate for the spinning allrounder No6 position.
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My favourite player to watch - there was a fantastic interview with him on cricinfo by George Dobell. He has signed a longterm contract with Worcs, which to some seemed strange, but his justification is a well-reasoned and mature one.
Very languid and easy on the eye. I didn't get to see him play this year, but apparently he has tightened his technique up.
The interview has much to do with the fact that if England were touring the subcontinent then he would be a strong candidate for the spinning allrounder No6 position.
What were his reasons mate? Big fan of him as well, nice to see a player commit to a club for reasons other than money! Although it may have a negative impact on furthering his career!
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Moeen Ali had a superb season this, and now has won a call up to the Lions squad. I was wondering if people have seen much of him? And if so, what is their view on him? Does he have what it takes to make it on the international stage as a batting all rounder? As by all accounts, his off spin apparently has improved rapidly over the last 12 months... Thoughts?
I would like to think so. Got to think he'd do better for the balance of the side at No. 6 than Bairstow.
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I would like to think so. Got to think he'd do better for the balance of the side at No. 6 than Bairstow.
Is there an argument his a better batter than Bairstow? But what about his off spin, will it stand up to international standard?
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What were his reasons mate? Big fan of him as well, nice to see a player commit to a club for reasons other than money! Although it may have a negative impact on furthering his career!
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/story/679723.html (http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/story/679723.html)
They looked after him and respected his personal requirements regarding faith rather than just paying lip service.
I think that if he keeps getting runs and wickets and is part of Lions set-up, then it shouldn't matter.
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A first class average of 38, mostly playing in the second division, does not suggest that Moeen is quite top class - it certainly does not compare at all favourably with the numbers Bairstow, Ballance, Taylor etc have acheived, more often in division 1. When I've seen him bat, I've found him easy to watch but have always thought his game a little bit lightweight.
So I suppose the question is how much of a difference does his off spin make? Hard to tell the quality at this stage, because whilst he has picked up some good hauls these have been on very helpful wickets in division 2. Whilst Swann is playing, I'd say little - either of the B's has the attacking game England seem to require from their number six and Joe Root is perfectly efficient at getting through a few fill in overs. There may be more of a vacancy if and when Swann calls it a day and England are forced to look at whether they really have a Test class replacement available to them.
Incidentally, the stuff about Worcester respecting his faith made me cringe; pure proselytising.
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Is there an argument his a better batter than Bairstow? But what about his off spin, will it stand up to international standard?
I didn't say he was better than Bairstow, I said he'd be better for the balance of the side with what he brings with his bowling. His bowling might not be international standard but when you are playing only 4 front line bowlers it would be good to have someone who can get it down the other end to take some of the work load. Mind you, Bairstow is the best fielder in the side at the minute, so you'd be losing something there.
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A first class average of 38, mostly playing in the second division, does not suggest that Moeen is quite top class - it certainly does not compare at all favourably with the numbers Bairstow, Ballance, Taylor etc have acheived, more often in division 1. When I've seen him bat, I've found him easy to watch but have always thought his game a little bit lightweight.
So I suppose the question is how much of a difference does his off spin make? Hard to tell the quality at this stage, because whilst he has picked up some good hauls these have been on very helpful wickets in division 2. Whilst Swann is playing, I'd say little - either of the B's has the attacking game England seem to require from their number six and Joe Root is perfectly efficient at getting through a few fill in overs. There may be more of a vacancy if and when Swann calls it a day and England are forced to look at whether they really have a Test class replacement available to them.
Incidentally, the stuff about Worcester respecting his faith made me cringe; pure proselytising.
I don't believe that it is cringeworthy - I take it at face value.
I think that his first class average is only part of the issue - he has obviously made strides. I don't know whether he is good enough for international honours. However, once he's in, he's great to watch.
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A first class average of 38, mostly playing in the second division, does not suggest that Moeen is quite top class - it certainly does not compare at all favourably with the numbers Bairstow, Ballance, Taylor etc have acheived, more often in division 1. When I've seen him bat, I've found him easy to watch but have always thought his game a little bit lightweight.
So I suppose the question is how much of a difference does his off spin make? Hard to tell the quality at this stage, because whilst he has picked up some good hauls these have been on very helpful wickets in division 2. Whilst Swann is playing, I'd say little - either of the B's has the attacking game England seem to require from their number six and Joe Root is perfectly efficient at getting through a few fill in overs. There may be more of a vacancy if and when Swann calls it a day and England are forced to look at whether they really have a Test class replacement available to them.
Incidentally, the stuff about Worcester respecting his faith made me cringe; pure proselytising.
that average you mention, i assume is a career average? whereas i believe the general opinion is his bettered himself as a player over the last 2 seasons.. so whilst its widely known previously he didnt fulfill his potential, the thinking is now his more mature and he understands his game better. based on consistent performances last 2 years, dont u agree?
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I don't believe that it is cringeworthy - I take it at face value.
have to agree to disagree bud, to me its just preaching and smacks of a chip on the shoulder.
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have to agree to disagree bud, to me its just preaching and smacks of a chip on the shoulder.
Fair enough - no hard feelings :)
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that average you mention, i assume is a career average? whereas i believe the general opinion is his bettered himself as a player over the last 2 seasons.. so whilst its widely known previously he didnt fulfill his potential, the thinking is now his more mature and he understands his game better. based on consistent performances last 2 years, dont u agree?
He has looked a better player over the last couple of seasons, yes, but my point is that even with that he's only pushed his average up to a level that is solidly unremarkable for a guy who has only played a single season of division one cricket in his career. Even in those good years his stats have been no better than the other contenders, despite them playing at the higher level (Bairstow, Ballance, Taylor, Chopra, Compton, Vince), so my view remains that he would need to prove that his spin was in itself a reason to select him...
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i think he is a lovely batsman to watch and think he is a very wristy player, like some others have said im not sure of his effectiveness on hitting a really big ball he is a top order bat so not sure his game would standup to a knock it over the rope rope in the current eng setup.i think he would be a great Test no.6 with his contribution of runs and time on his side, he is only young still
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Are you kidding? One in five of his T20 boundaries is a 6...
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I didn't say he was better than Bairstow, I said he'd be better for the balance of the side with what he brings with his bowling. His bowling might not be international standard but when you are playing only 4 front line bowlers it would be good to have someone who can get it down the other end to take some of the work load. Mind you, Bairstow is the best fielder in the side at the minute, so you'd be losing something there.
If they want balance, they'll pick Ballance. ;)
As someone has already said, England have Root to do the job as a 2nd spinner, so would we really need a third?
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He has looked a better player over the last couple of seasons, yes, but my point is that even with that he's only pushed his average up to a level that is solidly unremarkable for a guy who has only played a single season of division one cricket in his career. Even in those good years his stats have been no better than the other contenders, despite them playing at the higher level (Bairstow, Ballance, Taylor, Chopra, Compton, Vince), so my view remains that he would need to prove that his spin was in itself a reason to select him...
Yep good points, like u say, its his ability with the ball that may prove crucial. Will be interesting to see how well he does for the Lions..
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If they want balance, they'll pick Ballance. ;)
As someone has already said, England have Root to do the job as a 2nd spinner, so would we really need a third?
My guess is, Moeen is a better bowl than Root?
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Much
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A first class average of 38, mostly playing in the second division, does not suggest that Moeen is quite top class - it certainly does not compare at all favourably with the numbers Bairstow, Ballance, Taylor etc have acheived, more often in division 1. When I've seen him bat, I've found him easy to watch but have always thought his game a little bit lightweight.
So I suppose the question is how much of a difference does his off spin make? Hard to tell the quality at this stage, because whilst he has picked up some good hauls these have been on very helpful wickets in division 2. Whilst Swann is playing, I'd say little - either of the B's has the attacking game England seem to require from their number six and Joe Root is perfectly efficient at getting through a few fill in overs. There may be more of a vacancy if and when Swann calls it a day and England are forced to look at whether they really have a Test class replacement available to them.
Incidentally, the stuff about Worcester respecting his faith made me cringe; pure proselytising.
To bring up the old adage of averages. What were Tresco's and Vaughan's? I do agree about the standard of bowling, although weren't Yorkshire in Div 2 recently? THat will skew some of the stats for Balance, Bairstow etc. You can, or should only be picked on your last performance, and as his last performances have been exceptional.... he deserves a shot, like the rest of them. There are however, a lot of players deserving of a shot! Your Yorkshire bias is cute though ;)
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Are you kidding? One in five of his T20 boundaries is a 6...
T20 where the boundary is bought in by 30 yards...
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To bring up the old adage of averages. What were Tresco's and Vaughan's? I do agree about the standard of bowling, although weren't Yorkshire in Div 2 recently? THat will skew some of the stats for Balance, Bairstow etc. You can, or should only be picked on your last performance, and as his last performances have been exceptional.... he deserves a shot, like the rest of them. There are however, a lot of players deserving of a shot! Your Yorkshire bias is cute though ;)
That is the oft quoted comparator whenever this issue is raised. However, times changed - and have changed massively since those two were added to the England set up. Firstly, when they were selected, they were being brought in to a failing team that had regurgitated the same old list of names for the better part of a decade - one which briefly sank to the bottom of the Test rankings, no less. They were also playing when the divisional divide was new, and when the standard of pitches was lower and of Overseas players was higher. I believe when Virgil was called into the squad to tour South Africa in 1999 that his average was 38, but that was also the second highest average of an English qualified batsman under 30 who had made more than a handful of First Class starts...
Yorkshire had one season in division 2, which hardly skews stats in the same way - though Ballance's three seasons in Zimbabwe do give his an extra sheen. Though there is no bias - I'm comparing Ali to the guys England's selectors have identified as his competitors (if I were being biased I'd point out that Adil Rashid had a better F/C season, in Division 1, and is a better bowler and fielder....) :D
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If they want balance, they'll pick Ballance. ;)
As someone has already said, England have Root to do the job as a 2nd spinner, so would we really need a third?
I like your play on words but Ballance doesn't bowl as far as I'm aware, so other than a few headlines he's not really relevant to a balance argument.
I would have thought Moeen would be a better spin option than Root and certainly a better bowling option than Trott.
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As a worcs fan I have seen him develop over the years, he's always had the talent to play at the highest level and is a great player to watch. However he has always had a knack of giving his wicket away with a silly shot and this is why his batting average isn't that favorable - with his bowling really taking off last year I do think there is room for him in the T20/ODI squads, especially in the sub-continent but I think he's got a long way of eradicating these errors out of his game before he's considered as a possible test player.
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Mattw makes a valid point that there might be a more suitable opening int eh ODI squads - would have thought he is a better overall bet than Fat Sammy as a second spinner who can bat.
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That is the oft quoted comparator whenever this issue is raised. However, times changed - and have changed massively since those two were added to the England set up. Firstly, when they were selected, they were being brought in to a failing team that had regurgitated the same old list of names for the better part of a decade - one which briefly sank to the bottom of the Test rankings, no less. They were also playing when the divisional divide was new, and when the standard of pitches was lower and of Overseas players was higher. I believe when Virgil was called into the squad to tour South Africa in 1999 that his average was 38, but that was also the second highest average of an English qualified batsman under 30 who had made more than a handful of First Class starts...
Yorkshire had one season in division 2, which hardly skews stats in the same way - though Ballance's three seasons in Zimbabwe do give his an extra sheen. Though there is no bias - I'm comparing Ali to the guys England's selectors have identified as his competitors (if I were being biased I'd point out that Adil Rashid had a better F/C season, in Division 1, and is a better bowler and fielder....) :D
I hate trying to have a reasoned argument with you. You've got an answer to everything and more often than not, its right on reflection! ;) I do agree, however, I also believe that Moeen has earnt the right to be spoken on in the same breath (if not above the others). Is he not better for being a star in a weak side, as opposed to a consistent performer in a side full of stars. Its like looking at a class no. 8 on the back of a scrum going backwards, always made to look like one of the best players on the pitch (think Sergio Parisse for example)
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In my view, and I am sure this will be shot out of the sky...
We already have too many players who can do a "bit of both". None of whom now really get anywhere near the test team.
I am all for Moeen being given a chance, in the ODI or T20 team, however who in the current test side would you honestly say he was better than, at that level?
I think you would struggle to make a genuine case of any of them.
In a Team which James Taylor cant force his way into, with an average of 65, I think Moeen will struggle to get in as a batsman...And in a team with 7 possible seam options, and 3 test worthy spin options... I just can't see how.
Though when you say International player, I am assuming you mean England?
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As a Worcester fan I’ve seen lots of Mo this year and I can honestly say he has improved his batting hugely.
He is definitely talented enough to play for England but although he has tightened up his game a lot he still does give his wicket away far too often at domestic level.
I think Ballence deserves a shot for his weight of Div 1 Runs but I think Mo should be second it line. Batting 3 in a failing batting order at Worcester shouldn't be over looked compared to batting 5/6 in a well performing div 1 side. Some of the best bowlers in the country play in Div 2 Hogan, Richardson and Copeland all had outstanding seasons.
His bowling has also come on a great deal and he seems to have two modes of bowling one flat to keep the run rate down and one where he gives it a lot of air and spin to try and take wickets.
He is also a pretty decent slip fielder and generally a good outfielder.
Anyone who thinks he will struggle in one day/T20 big hitting cricket has clearly never seen him play this is not an area where he would struggle at all with a list a strike rate of 100 and T20 over 125. His 4 day strike rate also use to be higher before he rained in his game which has proved successful for his average.
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I'm not sure what other country he could play for as an Englishman born to English parents, in the very English city of Birmingham. Or am I being too accusatory?
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I'm not sure what other country he could play for as an Englishman born to English parents, in the very English city of Birmingham. Or am I being too accusatory?
When England's team includes one J.Trott (a Yarpie born in Yarpieland to Yarpie parents, IIRC) and when English football is seriously trying to steal a Belgian born Kosovar Albanian with Serb, Croat and Turkish heritage...
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Trott and Januzaj qualify/will qualify through residency though.
Unless Moeen Ali ups sticks and moves to another country, i believe he is only eligible for England currently. Unless there is a grandmother with a passport that the PCB can get in contact with. :)
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J. Trott's "Yarpie" father just happens to be English, works at an English school and spent some time in SA and married a SA...
He is also a really good bloke and a decent coach.
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What I was really getting at was..... are you trying to suggest that because he's a muslim, and has a beard, that he must be elligible to play for Pakistan. If you were, I was about to be worried.
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http://youtu.be/B1g5rjzbbf0 (http://youtu.be/B1g5rjzbbf0)
Lovely shots in particular from 1 min 40 sec
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Lovely shots in particular from 1 min 40 sec
the one at 2mins............ not so much ;)