Custom Bats Cricket Forum

Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Ryan on November 08, 2013, 04:25:44 PM

Title: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 08, 2013, 04:25:44 PM
I'm going to be making a few performance laminates over the weekend.  Well I'll do the initial planing and gluing before they're pressed.  When I say "performance", I mean the type with a very thin veneer stretching the whole face of the bat. 

What do people look for when buying a laminate?  Big edges?  Heavier weight that their match bat? A certain profile?  Etc.

I'm also trying out a few new techniques that I might implement for next season. 

I'll keep this updated with pictures showing some of the processes. 
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: toenails97 on November 08, 2013, 04:27:12 PM
A big but light laminate would be good
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Vitas Cricket on November 08, 2013, 04:29:31 PM
You gonna give that technique i mentioned a go mate?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: smokem on November 08, 2013, 04:33:13 PM
A big but light laminate would be good
+1

I would be looking for something that picks up better than (or at least the same as) my "normal" bat but generates more power in doing so.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Manormanic on November 08, 2013, 04:33:36 PM
incredible ping?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 08, 2013, 04:39:11 PM
You gonna give that technique i mentioned a go mate?

I'm not mate,  I don't think that would work. The thing that I can't get my head around is the glue drying when using that method.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 08, 2013, 04:50:02 PM
Obviously performance is key but is that the only reason some people prefer them? 
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Chad on November 08, 2013, 04:51:33 PM
As long as it performs, I wouldn't mind too much about size to be honest! I think a large coverage is a must too! Edges are overrated, but 35mm+ edges sound nice... :D
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: cleanbowled on November 08, 2013, 04:54:12 PM
Big edges was my initial attraction, bigger bats at a given weight and the fact that the few I have used all pinged incredibly well.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: TangoWhiskey on November 08, 2013, 04:59:25 PM
How does one even go about finding a laminate to buy anyway?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Bulldog Cricket on November 08, 2013, 05:03:00 PM
Its all about the performance. That is the point.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 08, 2013, 05:33:32 PM
Its all about the performance. That is the point.

Exactly,  but do they actually perform better than a well pressed standard bat?

Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Bulldog Cricket on November 08, 2013, 05:41:07 PM
Not sure ryan and I dont think anyone can say for sure.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 08, 2013, 05:53:47 PM
I agree,  not sure ether. It's more of an experiment than anything else.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 08, 2013, 05:59:27 PM
These are the donor bats for the faces.

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131108_170146_zpsa67de853.jpg)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Bulldog Cricket on November 08, 2013, 06:01:47 PM
how are you going to machine the face flat Ryan ? do you have a milling machine ?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 08, 2013, 06:06:29 PM
I'm planning on cutting the face of the donor bats and laminating them onto the other blades once they've been planed then they will be pressed and spliced/ shaped and finished. 

Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Bulldog Cricket on November 08, 2013, 06:23:16 PM
I think the key is to get both mating surfaces perfectly flat so that you get a good clean bond.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 08, 2013, 06:52:41 PM
That's not a problem. I'm using my bandsaw to cut a thin veneer of willow then I need to plane the face of the lower grade bat before gluing together. 
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: procricket on November 08, 2013, 07:15:39 PM
Get a thin layer of rubber or cork under the veneer mate
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 09, 2013, 12:54:52 PM
And so it begins.  The first one has been glued and clamped.  On with the second one now.

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131109_111754_zps44f255f9.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131109_110152_zpsc947d346.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131109_111559_zps0264cd3b.jpg)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: rbblack on November 09, 2013, 01:09:09 PM
Looks like a good winter saturday project Ryan. Interested to see how they turn out.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: smilley792 on November 09, 2013, 01:11:39 PM
The only reason I'd want a laminate, is to have a larger bat than is technically available from a cleft.


So say a 75mm spine is the largest from an oversize cleft? I'd want my laminate to have an 85 mm spine at its sweet spot.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: tushar sehgal on November 09, 2013, 03:31:33 PM
Don't know much about laminates except for the basics but was wondering if anyone has tried pressing the lower grade part of the lam and then added the thin higher grade on top and pressed it again? not sure if it would do anything but was thinking about how a softly pressed top layer and hard pressed layer under might work well. Obviously the main blade would have to be pressed using flat roller.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: shoab68 on November 09, 2013, 07:03:26 PM
Not sure ryan and I dont think anyone can say for sure.
Having used few laminates myself, i can surely say they perform 10% more than normal bats.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: tim2000s on November 09, 2013, 07:18:31 PM
Having used few laminates myself, i can surely say they perform 10% more than normal bats.
Then I can only suggest you have never used a good normal bat....

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 09, 2013, 07:52:53 PM
Having used few laminates myself, i can surely say they perform 10% more than normal bats.

If the performance improvement is around 10% then why bother?  It's a lot of additional work for a very little gain.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Simmy on November 09, 2013, 09:07:41 PM
cant wait to test out one of these :D
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Gingerbusiness on November 09, 2013, 09:45:13 PM
If the performance improvement is around 10% then why bother?  It's a lot of additional work for a very little gain.

...and a bat which is technically illegal within the laws of the game...
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Number4 on November 09, 2013, 09:59:48 PM
...and a bat which is technically illegal within the laws of the game...

Simmy scoffs at the laws... HA!!!  ;)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Number4 on November 09, 2013, 10:00:53 PM
Are you using your "special" glue for this experiment Ryan?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 09, 2013, 10:02:31 PM
Are you using your "special" glue for this experiment Ryan?
Is that a euphemism??
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Gingerbusiness on November 09, 2013, 10:03:49 PM
Gavin from Autoglass can bring some of his "special resin" over...?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Number4 on November 09, 2013, 10:06:17 PM
Is that a euphemism??

Didn't think it would read like that till I posted it... Haha... But no, Ryan and Simmy made some of their own "special" glue on the last attempt which I believe showed improved performance
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Batman7 on November 09, 2013, 10:10:32 PM
Are these bats illegal?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 09, 2013, 10:21:19 PM
Are these bats illegal?
Yes, all lams are technically illegal
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: shoab68 on November 10, 2013, 05:40:52 AM
Then I can only suggest you have never used a good normal bat....

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk
[/quote I have used almost all top range bats made by top notch bat makers. If a laminate is made by expert bat maker then definitely it would perform better than normal.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 10, 2013, 07:58:05 AM
Are you using your "special" glue for this experiment Ryan?

I couldn't possibly say  :o
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 10, 2013, 08:00:48 AM
Yes, all lams are technically illegal

Yes they are, they fall outside the type A category and therfore cannot be used in competitive cricket so technically a net bat.

It's more or an experiment in my eyes.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 10, 2013, 03:33:46 PM
1st blade ready for pressing.  The pressing process should reduce the veneer down to a couple of mm.

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/Messenger_5805251741049236995_13840798714354514_zps18fb8393.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/Messenger_5805252358527627922_13840800186523815_zpsd1b673a1.jpg)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: procricket on November 10, 2013, 04:13:44 PM
Ryan are you around in 2 weekend time I call down and pick up my lads bat plus have a butchers at these if there any left
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 10, 2013, 05:39:43 PM
Ryan are you around in 2 weekend time I call down and pick up my lads bat plus have a butchers at these if there any left

I will be mate.  Give me a bell or text. 
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 10, 2013, 06:36:16 PM
I thought everyone would like to see a TK lam cut in half so here we are.

TK on the right and mine on the left.

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/Messenger_5805367697117848007_13841075175240538_zps73db5738.jpg)

85mm max spine and 65mm max edge.

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131110_174517_zpscc660af0.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131110_174509_zpsf7ff12c2.jpg)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Manormanic on November 10, 2013, 07:16:53 PM
why cut a TK Lam in half?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Number4 on November 10, 2013, 07:32:15 PM
There seems to be a lot more "glue" on the TK...
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Blazer on November 10, 2013, 08:14:52 PM
1st blade ready for pressing.  The pressing process should reduce the veneer down to a couple of mm.

([url]http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/Messenger_5805251741049236995_13840798714354514_zps18fb8393.jpg[/url])


Wouldn't it be better if the smaller veneer be pressed on its own and glued on to cleft rather than pressing glued up together cleft to keep the size big Ryan ?. Does pressing compress the overall size or just the face ?.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 10, 2013, 08:17:29 PM
There seems to be a lot more "glue" on the TK...

It's not glue I don't think.  It looks like the middle section hasn't really had any pressure applied to it so hasn't bonded as tight as the rest. I'd say most of the pressure was applied to the edges.  I'll know more when mine have been pressed tomorrow. 
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 10, 2013, 08:20:15 PM
I don't think you'd be able the press the thin veneer on its own. 

Loads of variable's to consider though.  This is just one of them I'm currently testing.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Number4 on November 11, 2013, 03:03:21 AM
I thought everyone would like to see a TK lam cut in half so here we are.

TK on the right and mine on the left.

([url]http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/Messenger_5805367697117848007_13841075175240538_zps73db5738.jpg[/url])

85mm max spine and 65mm max edge.

([url]http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131110_174517_zpscc660af0.jpg[/url])

([url]http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131110_174509_zpsf7ff12c2.jpg[/url])


It does show how a lower grade bat can be turned into an expensive sought after laminate though doesn't it..

Is that 6 grains on the TK but a very grainy veneer?

Yours is a grainy bat with a grainy veneer Ryan.. Is that right?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Jacky on November 11, 2013, 03:15:08 AM
Looks great so far, can't wait to see the final product!
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: tailender on November 12, 2013, 02:52:15 PM
Thought laminate bats where illegal in all forms of cricket?

MCC Law 6.4(b) states: “The blade shall consist solely of wood.”

It was recently reviewed to state that the adhesive/rubber etc used as part of the laminating process broke this rule and so use of any laminate bats is prohibited.  The MCC also went on to state that umpires at amateur level will be ebcouraged to stop the use of such blades.

 :-[
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 12, 2013, 03:19:17 PM
Thought laminate bats where illegal in all forms of cricket?

MCC Law 6.4(b) states: “The blade shall consist solely of wood.”

It was recently reviewed to state that the adhesive/rubber etc used as part of the laminating process broke this rule and so use of any laminate bats is prohibited.  The MCC also went on to state that umpires at amateur level will be ebcouraged to stop the use of such blades.

 :-[

Correct,  as said earlier they are an experiment and should only be used as net bats. 
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: GarrettJ on November 12, 2013, 03:26:00 PM
should have put a layer of cork in there. or do a triple laminate and dig out the back part of the bat and fill it with cork to get the weight right down.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: uknsaunders on November 12, 2013, 03:36:45 PM
should have put a layer of cork in there. or do a triple laminate and dig out the back part of the bat and fill it with cork to get the weight right down.

Same principle as corking baseball bats?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 12, 2013, 03:42:27 PM
Same principle as corking baseball bats?

I saw a program on the discovery chanel about corked baseball bats.  They tested them and results ahowed an increase in performance. 
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: trypewriter on November 12, 2013, 03:55:49 PM
they also used to hollow out baseball bats and fill them with 'superballs' - also illegal.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: TangoWhiskey on November 12, 2013, 04:06:18 PM
they also used to hollow out baseball bats and fill them with 'superballs' - also illegal.

Superballs?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 12, 2013, 04:39:19 PM
Superballs?
Google it and turn safe search off (just make sure nobody can see what you're looking at though)  :D
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: TangoWhiskey on November 12, 2013, 04:42:58 PM
Google it and turn safe search off (just make sure nobody can see what you're looking at though)  :D

Haha, this is why I didn't google it.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: tailender on November 12, 2013, 05:12:13 PM
Correct,  as said earlier they are an experiment and should only be used as net bats.

Fair enough, I just think they will spoil the amateur game and half the umpires I have ever played with wouldn't be able to tell the difference.  Strategic placement of stickers can also make it very difficult to detect such bats..... slippery slope
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 12, 2013, 05:49:49 PM
Fair enough, I just think they will spoil the amateur game and half the umpires I have ever played with wouldn't be able to tell the difference.  Strategic placement of stickers can also make it very difficult to detect such bats..... slippery slope

Slippery slope to where? Laminates are widely available through various contacts and I don't see an issue with  an experiment. We all know what constitutes a type A bat, this doesn't conform with this regulation.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Vitas Cricket on November 12, 2013, 05:55:43 PM
Quite right Ryan.

Plenty of places to get a lam, openly sold with no hush hush or secrecy.

Tim Keeley being the biggest name i suppose. CA, Malik also do them, pretty sure every Pakistani brand would do one if asked, if they aren't openly marketing them anyway.

Most league umpires wouldn't know the rule, and if made aware would probably tell whoever was complaining to bloody well get on with it.

Having used a few i think the performance difference is not massive. They make a difference at the elite level of sport as tiny margins sway things, and this is probably part of the reason why they are banned.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: tailender on November 13, 2013, 09:52:50 AM
well if thats the case why dont we just bring bats with metal inserts?

surely the law is there for a reason and bat makers should do their bit to enforce it?  if we can ignore the law in this manner what is stopping someone making a bat wider than the legal limits and so on?

Seems strange that bat makers would openly advertise the fact that they produce bats that break MCC laws?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: uknsaunders on November 13, 2013, 09:59:05 AM
well if thats the case why dont we just bring bats with metal inserts?

surely the law is there for a reason and bat makers should do their bit to enforce it?  if we can ignore the law in this manner what is stopping someone making a bat wider than the legal limits and so on?

Seems strange that bat makers would openly advertise the fact that they produce bats that break MCC laws?

Now you are being silly!

Ryan has stated (unlike most batmakers) that these bats ARE NOT for match use and for netting only. No different to a soft ball bat, though without the performance benefits. Just to touch on Jakes point about league umpires. I saw a guy bat with a Kippax lammy in a league game. He played a firm push and the ball flew over cover for 4!. I told the umpires it wasn't legal and they shrugged their shoulders and said they didn't know it illegal or not. You could clearly see the join and the bat was huge!. Guy was allowed to carry on batting with it.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Number4 on November 13, 2013, 09:59:27 AM
Pretty sure you can use any width bat in the nets and as Ryan has stated it's an experiment and not a type A bat so all good to go in the nets
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: GarrettJ on November 13, 2013, 10:17:26 AM
im pretty sure on that Tendulkar bat thread one of them he is inspecting is a laminate
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 13, 2013, 10:17:34 AM
well if thats the case why dont we just bring bats with metal inserts?

surely the law is there for a reason and bat makers should do their bit to enforce it?  if we can ignore the law in this manner what is stopping someone making a bat wider than the legal limits and so on?

Seems strange that bat makers would openly advertise the fact that they produce bats that break MCC laws?

I think you're taking this "experiment" out or context.  I have no way suggested that these laminates would conform with MCC laws and regulations or suggested that these would or should be used in a game environment. 

This is purely an exercise to test how laminating willow with various glues etc affects performance. 
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Manormanic on November 13, 2013, 10:19:57 AM
I think in fairness the laws only prohibit their use in a game, not their existence...

This and other overreactions....
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: uknsaunders on November 13, 2013, 10:21:07 AM
On the subject of Corking:-

MythBusters test[edit]

According to the MythBusters August 8, 2007 baseball special, the ball hit by a corked bat travels at only half the speed of a ball hit by an unmodified bat, causing it to go a shorter distance. The cork inside the bat actually absorbs the kinetic energy like a sponge, hindering the batter's performance. In addition, because corked bats are lighter, they have less momentum to transfer to the ball, bringing them to the conclusion that the use of a corked bat had fewer benefits over a regular bat. The show also notes that while filling a bat with cork makes it lighter, there is nothing in the rule book that prevents a player from simply using a lighter, uncorked bat.[5] However, lighter wood bats are shorter than heavier bats (a baseball bat has a linear weight-to-length ratio referred to as "drop"); drilling out a heavier bat and adding a less dense filling allows the swing speed of a lighter bat with the plate reach of a heavier one, which may allow the batter to make solid contact with pitches more effectively.[6]


Myth statement   Status   Notes
A baseball bat filled with cork can hit a baseball farther than a normal bat.   Busted   This myth operates under the assumption that cork-filled bats can be swung faster because of their lighter weight, and that the springiness of the cork could propel the ball farther. To eliminate the human factor of the myth, Adam and Jamie constructed a special batting rig and used a pressurized air cannon to launch the baseball at it. Tests showed that the cannon could launch the ball 80 miles per hour, which is the average speed of most MLB pitches. Regulation bats could propel the ball away at 80 mph (130 km/h) while corked bats could only propel the ball 40 mph (64 km/h), half the speed of regulation bats. The reason was that cork bats have less mass to transfer force into the ball, and the cork actually absorbs some of the ball's impact. The MythBusters concluded that using a cork filled bat will not improve performance (it will in fact hurt it), and the major league batters who were caught using cork-filled bats risked their careers for absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: TangoWhiskey on November 13, 2013, 10:43:10 AM
On the subject of Corking:-

MythBusters test[edit]

According to the MythBusters August 8, 2007 baseball special, the ball hit by a corked bat travels at only half the speed of a ball hit by an unmodified bat, causing it to go a shorter distance. The cork inside the bat actually absorbs the kinetic energy like a sponge, hindering the batter's performance. In addition, because corked bats are lighter, they have less momentum to transfer to the ball, bringing them to the conclusion that the use of a corked bat had fewer benefits over a regular bat. The show also notes that while filling a bat with cork makes it lighter, there is nothing in the rule book that prevents a player from simply using a lighter, uncorked bat.[5] However, lighter wood bats are shorter than heavier bats (a baseball bat has a linear weight-to-length ratio referred to as "drop"); drilling out a heavier bat and adding a less dense filling allows the swing speed of a lighter bat with the plate reach of a heavier one, which may allow the batter to make solid contact with pitches more effectively.[6]


Myth statement   Status   Notes
A baseball bat filled with cork can hit a baseball farther than a normal bat.   Busted   This myth operates under the assumption that cork-filled bats can be swung faster because of their lighter weight, and that the springiness of the cork could propel the ball farther. To eliminate the human factor of the myth, Adam and Jamie constructed a special batting rig and used a pressurized air cannon to launch the baseball at it. Tests showed that the cannon could launch the ball 80 miles per hour, which is the average speed of most MLB pitches. Regulation bats could propel the ball away at 80 mph (130 km/h) while corked bats could only propel the ball 40 mph (64 km/h), half the speed of regulation bats. The reason was that cork bats have less mass to transfer force into the ball, and the cork actually absorbs some of the ball's impact. The MythBusters concluded that using a cork filled bat will not improve performance (it will in fact hurt it), and the major league batters who were caught using cork-filled bats risked their careers for absolutely nothing.

Wow, very interesting.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: tailender on November 13, 2013, 11:06:42 AM
I think you're taking this "experiment" out or context.  I have no way suggested that these laminates would conform with MCC laws and regulations or suggested that these would or should be used in a game environment. 

This is purely an exercise to test how laminating willow with various glues etc affects performance.

so these bats will not be for sale? i think people on here jump to the wrong conclusions when points are made, what im saying is... if you sell a laminated bat to joe bloggs "for net use only" knowing that it is illegal to use in a game, how do you plan to make sure the bat isnt used in a game? you cant! so therefore, isnt it irresponsible to produce such bats?

If someone turns up on a sat and starts blasting boundaries with a railway sleeper of a bat, is this fair?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 13, 2013, 11:21:34 AM
Your going down a completely different avenue or missing the point all together.  Again these are to test different affects and any performance increase from a standard bat. Laminates are widely available through various contacts,  some of which are on this forum and no one has questioned their integrity even though their examples are for sale.

This is a project to experiment through the closed season which I thought the forum would be interested to see. But if you'd rather discuss types of grips etc then that's fine, however I find that a little boring. 
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 13, 2013, 11:22:44 AM
But I can see where you're coming from. It's impossible to police what a customer does with a bat after purchase.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: GarrettJ on November 13, 2013, 11:27:05 AM
"However, lighter wood bats are shorter than heavier bats (a baseball bat has a linear weight-to-length ratio referred to as "drop"); drilling out a heavier bat and adding a less dense filling allows the swing speed of a lighter bat with the plate reach of a heavier one, which may allow the batter to make solid contact with pitches more effectively"

what does this bit mean .... get a 4lb long blade bat and cork it to 2.8 and it should improve performance?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Number4 on November 13, 2013, 11:30:18 AM
But I can see where you're coming from. It's impossible to police what a customer does with a bat after purchase.

And it isn't the bat makers job to police what is done with the bat after selling it.

It's illegal to hit someone over the head with a Type A bat.. Is it the bat makers job to make sure the customer doesn't use it for that too?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: GarrettJ on November 13, 2013, 11:31:54 AM
is this Tendulkar bat a laminate? Not a Performance one but the back looks to have been stuck on???

(http://www.espncricinfo.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/170300/170397.jpg)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Number4 on November 13, 2013, 11:33:26 AM
Certainly seems so
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Blazer on November 13, 2013, 11:54:25 AM
I would like to point out that we are in a privileged position to know how different skills, techniques involved in bat making with the generous input from pod shavers like Ryan. Not many bat makers are transparent about ideas and sort of portray the image of magicians who cannot tell their trade secrets. It's refreshing to see someone like Ryan taking time to involve and inform the general public.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Kez on November 13, 2013, 12:12:59 PM
is this Tendulkar bat a laminate? Not a Performance one but the back looks to have been stuck on???

([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/170300/170397.jpg[/url])



I would not be surprised to see pros using lams, they are looking for the 1%s.
But i'm also sure they hide them at the bottom of the bags when the umpires come around and check them.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: uknsaunders on November 13, 2013, 12:15:11 PM
"However, lighter wood bats are shorter than heavier bats (a baseball bat has a linear weight-to-length ratio referred to as "drop"); drilling out a heavier bat and adding a less dense filling allows the swing speed of a lighter bat with the plate reach of a heavier one, which may allow the batter to make solid contact with pitches more effectively"

what does this bit mean .... get a 4lb long blade bat and cork it to 2.8 and it should improve performance?

My take on it was if you used a 2'8 corked cricket bat (in your example), it would actually perform worse than a normal 2'8 cricket bat. The cork will actually absorb the energy not return it. However in baseball it serves a purpose as lighter bats have to be shorter (no idea why) and to maintain the same length of bat but lighter you have to cork it. Cricket you obviously don't have to make the blade shorter.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: uknsaunders on November 13, 2013, 12:17:18 PM
is this Tendulkar bat a laminate? Not a Performance one but the back looks to have been stuck on???

([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/170300/170397.jpg[/url])


Looks like grains to me. Seems to a bit off course towards the handle. A lammy would be dead straight.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: johnnyw on November 13, 2013, 12:22:29 PM
Looks like grains to me. Seems to a bit off course towards the handle. A lammy would be dead straight.
You have a good point there. If you look closely, the line is wavy the whole way and it does not seem to be a lam
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: GarrettJ on November 13, 2013, 12:36:39 PM
look at the bottom of the bat where the inside edge red mark is .... trace back towords teh back of the bat ... its looks like a join and there is a line running all the way up from that.

could be my eyes, im getting old   :(
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: tim2000s on November 13, 2013, 01:51:17 PM
I know corked bats are illegal in baseball, and I think drilled bats are too, unlike cricket, precisely because it allows you to get a longer reach with a lighter bat. That makes no difference in cricket.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 13, 2013, 06:51:56 PM
I would like to point out that we are in a privileged position to know how different skills, techniques involved in bat making with the generous input from pod shavers like Ryan. Not many bat makers are transparent about ideas and sort of portray the image of magicians who cannot tell their trade secrets. It's refreshing to see someone like Ryan taking time to involve and inform the general public.

Thanks,  I like to be transparent with everything I do. I thought it would be an interesting topic to post.

I also may be needed a few volunteers to test a couple of lams out. Be nice to get some impartial opinions on the pickup,  finish, performance etc. You'd need to be a forum regular etc to apply :p
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 13, 2013, 06:53:09 PM
is this Tendulkar bat a laminate? Not a Performance one but the back looks to have been stuck on???

([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/170300/170397.jpg[/url])


I'd say that was more or a "double wood" laminate.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: tailender on November 13, 2013, 06:54:35 PM
And it isn't the bat makers job to police what is done with the bat after selling it.

It's illegal to hit someone over the head with a Type A bat.. Is it the bat makers job to make sure the customer doesn't use it for that too?

Think that's somewhat off track, what im getting at is that if the bats themselves are not recognised as legal then why sell them? surely by producing and selling you are contributing to the issue? that's just my point of view.

Nothing to do with violence on the pitch, that's something that is completely out of a batmakers hands regardless.  the production of laminates is within their control.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: tailender on November 13, 2013, 06:55:56 PM
That said, I like the way ryan is being transparent as many bat makers are not

I just don't like lams
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: procricket on November 13, 2013, 06:59:42 PM
I will try one for you Ryan no drama at all there bud
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: ProCricketer1982 on November 13, 2013, 07:07:31 PM
so these bats will not be for sale? i think people on here jump to the wrong conclusions when points are made, what im saying is... if you sell a laminated bat to joe bloggs "for net use only" knowing that it is illegal to use in a game, how do you plan to make sure the bat isnt used in a game? you cant! so therefore, isnt it irresponsible to produce such bats?

If someone turns up on a sat and starts blasting boundaries with a railway sleeper of a bat, is this fair?

You sir are a complete chopper. That is all.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: ProCricketer1982 on November 13, 2013, 07:12:03 PM
Thanks,  I like to be transparent with everything I do. I thought it would be an interesting topic to post.

I also may be needed a few volunteers to test a couple of lams out. Be nice to get some impartial opinions on the pickup,  finish, performance etc. You'd need to be a forum regular etc to apply :p

Love to do that if required dude.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 13, 2013, 07:12:23 PM
so these bats will not be for sale? i think people on here jump to the wrong conclusions when points are made, what im saying is... if you sell a laminated bat to joe bloggs "for net use only" knowing that it is illegal to use in a game, how do you plan to make sure the bat isnt used in a game? you cant! so therefore, isnt it irresponsible to produce such bats?

If someone turns up on a sat and starts blasting boundaries with a railway sleeper of a bat, is this fair?
Life isn't fair, get over it!

As far as someone blasting boundaries with a railway sleeper, how is this less 'fair' than doing so with a twig of a bat, its not the bat it's the one using it...
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: ProCricketer1982 on November 13, 2013, 07:14:05 PM
Life isn't fair, get over it!

As far as someone blasting boundaries with a railway sleeper, how is this less 'fair' than doing so with a twig of a bat, its not the bat it's the one using it...
Here here
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 13, 2013, 07:17:45 PM
I will try one for you Ryan no drama at all there bud

I'll send you one through mate once I've finalised the process. Be interested to hear your feedback against a well pressed standard bat. 
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: procricket on November 13, 2013, 07:18:53 PM
I be down your on the 23rd if your around bud
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 13, 2013, 07:21:12 PM
I'm quite happy to do what instinct did a while back and offer one up for testing,  probability be around 2.9oz.

Love to get a few people's views and comparisons against their current match bat.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 13, 2013, 07:21:51 PM
I be down your on the 23rd if your around bud

 Should be mate.  Let me know closer to the time.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Torque on November 13, 2013, 07:24:57 PM
I'd like to put my name forward to review one.  :D
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 13, 2013, 07:47:17 PM
Let's get Christmas out of the way then we can iron the creases out. Providing the forum admin don't have an issue.   
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: tushar sehgal on November 13, 2013, 07:50:00 PM
When everyone is done reviewing it and no one left in line I would love to try it out as well. Never really tried a Lam so should be interesting to see what its about, I know I will have to cover the postage etc.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: FattusCattus on November 13, 2013, 08:30:30 PM
I'm quite happy to do what instinct did a while back and offer one up for testing,  probability be around 2.9oz.

Love to get a few people's views and comparisons against their current match bat.

You will of course require a 'proper' batsman to try one out   :D
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 13, 2013, 08:36:15 PM
You will of course require a 'proper' batsman to try one out   :D

Of course,  do you happen to know any?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: FattusCattus on November 13, 2013, 08:40:00 PM
There can only be one!

Arrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: toenails97 on November 13, 2013, 09:36:54 PM
I'd be up for testing one mate!
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: uknsaunders on November 13, 2013, 09:40:10 PM
There can only be one!

Arrrrrrrrrrrrr!

yeah your mate Buzz  ;)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: 400notout on November 13, 2013, 09:40:35 PM
I think that box I sent you has room for two bats Ryan! Could always send the Lam out! haha. Enjoying the updates on this, good stuff!
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: FattusCattus on November 13, 2013, 09:44:28 PM
yeah your mate Buzz  ;)

Well we can all rest easy that you have not included yourself on the list  :D
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Kulli on November 13, 2013, 11:35:53 PM
I'd like to add my name for the testing since someone sawed my last Lam in half!!
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 14, 2013, 08:36:44 AM
I'd like to add my name for the testing since someone sawed my last Lam in half!!

Wonder who that was  :o
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 16, 2013, 04:22:52 PM
Lams have been pressed, spliced, handle fitted and part shaped. I think they've turned out quite well. Both are currently 3lb with 55mm+ edges. 

Wonder what shape and weight to finish them at...

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131116_150258_zpsacf80abc.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131116_150343_zpsd709d0b2.jpg)


(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131116_150315_zps7aef7c0b.jpg)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: rbblack on November 16, 2013, 04:27:40 PM
The one on the right is a really cool shape!
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 16, 2013, 04:31:51 PM
Cheers rob, I haven't finished shaping them but thought of going down a hybrid county reflex toe shape with modern concaving and big edges but not sure yet. That's why I've left the toe around 30mm and shoulders around 25mm thick. 
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: smilley792 on November 16, 2013, 04:36:13 PM
They are some big bats! Non of my 3lb plus bats are that big! Sweet Jesus
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ams4287 on November 16, 2013, 04:38:49 PM
Both look really good shapes - although the one on the right looks like my wife did 7 months pregnant!

Really interested to see how they turn out and just how the 'performance' differs from a standard bat
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ams4287 on November 16, 2013, 04:40:35 PM
Both look really good shapes - although the one on the right looks like my wife did 7 months pregnant!

Really interested to see how they turn out and just how the 'performance' differs from a standard bat

Or based on earlier posts should I say 'legal'  :D
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 16, 2013, 04:41:37 PM
Both look really good shapes - although the one on the right looks like my wife did 7 months pregnant!

Really interested to see how they turn out and just how the 'performance' differs from a standard bat

Me too Andy, it's been an interesting experiment so far. Different techniques and process evolved in these so good to try something new.

You'll have to have a look at them Monday.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ams4287 on November 16, 2013, 04:45:09 PM
Me too Andy, it's been an interesting experiment so far. Different techniques and process evolved in these so good to try something new.

You'll have to have a look at them Monday.

Yeah will do mate be interesting to tap up (hopefully the one on the left won't finish around 2.11 as I may need to leave my wallet at home  ;) ) - I'm sure you may get several enquiries on the experiment in the coming weeks/months!
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: rbblack on November 16, 2013, 04:45:42 PM
Cheers rob, I haven't finished shaping them but thought of going down a hybrid county reflex toe shape with modern concaving and big edges but not sure yet. That's why I've left the toe around 30mm and shoulders around 25mm thick.

Yeah I think if you shape it down to a decent weight and tidy up the shaping a bit she'll be a beauty, definitely a good shout on the shape.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 16, 2013, 04:47:37 PM
Also been experimenting with the county turbo idea. Not sure if that increases performance ether but something made me want to try the idea out for myself.

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131116_140924_zps228f33c8.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131116_141012_zps100cd050.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131116_140930_zpsd5db8d82.jpg)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: FattusCattus on November 16, 2013, 04:55:32 PM
Copytheoldturboshape, copytheoldturboshape, copytheoldturboshape!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Isn't this exciting? I'm glad I'm not drinking tonight!
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 16, 2013, 05:01:37 PM
Copytheoldturboshape, copytheoldturboshape, copytheoldturboshape!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Isn't this exciting? I'm glad I'm not drinking tonight!

For some reason I think there's a hidden message there but can't quite work it out!  :-[
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Blank Bats on November 16, 2013, 05:14:07 PM
Ryan

How far into the blade does the hole go.

Did u weigh it before and after.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 16, 2013, 05:24:51 PM
Ryan



How far into the blade does the hole go.

Did u weigh it before and after.

Around 15cm up from the toe and I forgot to weigh it before and after, doh!
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: uknsaunders on November 16, 2013, 05:33:15 PM
The one on the left leave big edged and modern. Maybe offset the edges and slope the shoulders with concaving. Ie a modern t20 style bat with big edges

The one on the right a traditional distinction profile with smallish edges and a big spine.

Sent from my Lenovo B6000-F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Krs on November 16, 2013, 06:39:13 PM
I am liking the one on the left! Looks a beast! So gland I'm am super HENCH! Want me to test the beast
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Vulcan Cricket on November 16, 2013, 10:10:43 PM
Also been experimenting with the county turbo idea. Not sure if that increases performance ether but something made me want to try the idea out for myself.

([url]http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131116_140924_zps228f33c8.jpg[/url])

([url]http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131116_141012_zps100cd050.jpg[/url])

([url]http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131116_140930_zpsd5db8d82.jpg[/url])


gary did this to a bat he made for years ago when i was boy lol said more weight  he said he use to do this at hunts years ago  i like it
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Number4 on November 28, 2013, 11:18:20 AM
Any update on these yet?
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 28, 2013, 08:31:18 PM
They're pretty much finished,  last few tweaks and they'll be ready.  Just unsure on what finished weight to make them both. Maybe 2.10 or 2.12oz.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: smokem on November 29, 2013, 02:46:44 AM
2.10 I reckon. Then you can compare the ping to other 2.10's and heavier bats and better judge the performance benefits.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Number4 on November 29, 2013, 02:49:21 AM
I was thinking 2lb9oz seeing as it is the most popular and widely used weight but 2lb10oz would do
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: smokem on November 29, 2013, 02:59:31 AM
Yeh 2.9 would be even better. Then I can put my hand up as a tester too! ;)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on November 29, 2013, 07:42:18 AM
2.9 to 2.10oz it is then. 
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: toenails97 on November 29, 2013, 08:06:38 AM
2.9 to 2.10oz it is then.
As said before I'd definitely be up for trialing this out for you
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on December 09, 2013, 09:39:48 PM
Both are now finished. 

First one is 2.9.5oz

This one has 20mm toe, 38mm at the biggest, 15mm at the shoulders and has a spine of 65mm. A massive piece of willow for the weight.

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/PhotoGrid_1386624596595_zps26a7e8e4.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131209_212158_zps29681d42.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131209_212214_zpsaba1d240.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131209_212226_zpscf6982e8.jpg)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on December 09, 2013, 09:42:17 PM
Second one is 2.10.8oz

This one has a 18mm toe,  35mm at the biggest,  18mm at the shoulders and a spine of 70mm.  Again a very big piece of willow for the weight. 

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/PhotoGrid_1386624770014_zpsbdafcf56.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131209_212116_zps704d6a5e.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131209_212125_zps0d836644.jpg)

(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/Kelsallcustombats/20131209_212136_zps193fd571.jpg)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ams4287 on December 09, 2013, 09:59:21 PM
Lovely finish / profiles Ryan!

Problem is you'll have to find a bowling machine or some willing volunteers to bowl at you to give the forum a performance review.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on December 09, 2013, 10:06:07 PM
I'm netting Wednesday so I'll give them a go, also got my butterfly net bat to try out, wonder how it will sound and perform with the hole drilled through the middle.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Over Gully on December 10, 2013, 07:59:11 AM
You've done a really nice job there!! From afar it just looks like a grain running down the side, or maybe a slight streak of heartwood. I know a guy at my club who has a laminate bat, an SF one that was apparently set aside for Dwayne Bravo (I thought they were illegal in International/FC cricket?), it's bloody massive, had 45mm edges when those weren't the in thing 4-5 years ago.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: TangoWhiskey on December 10, 2013, 09:13:31 AM
I'm looking forward to hearing how these things go. Very interesting.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: smokem on December 10, 2013, 01:18:06 PM
Nice work Ryan. Look forward to hearing your thoughts on the lam and butterfly.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: mk_chappo on December 10, 2013, 02:21:57 PM
Really good looking bats. The profile on that first one is just perfect in my eyes.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: shoab68 on December 10, 2013, 02:26:20 PM
nice finish, both looks good. Would be interesting to know about the performance. Pls give your honest opinion whether these lams performs better than normal ones.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on December 10, 2013, 04:30:27 PM
I'm in the process of looking at loaning one or both out to admin/ senior members of the forum so hopefully get some fair and honest feedback.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Buzz on December 10, 2013, 10:18:24 PM
I'm in the process of looking at loaning one or both out to admin/ senior members of the forum so hopefully get some fair and honest feedback.

Humm - I mentioned this to the Stig.

He is, apparently, going to be making his long awaited comeback to the forum in the not too distant future as a result of this... Doesn't look as if anyone else will be getting a go after all  ;)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on December 12, 2013, 08:12:19 PM
I've used one of the lams last night and found it very tasty,  I'm hoping that the stig can confirm, bearing in mind he's not too rusty from being boxed up for so long.

All hail the stig. Some people say he has cricket balls for testicle's.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Vic Nicholas on December 15, 2013, 11:41:38 AM
Beautiful looking bats.

A credit to your skills.
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: petehosk on December 15, 2013, 05:47:42 PM
Hi Ryan

Got the Lam through the post all safe and sound.......and I love the profile!
It's a hum-dinger! I am looking forward to trying it in the nets on Monday with the other chaps  :D
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on December 15, 2013, 06:04:22 PM
Hi Ryan

Got the Lam through the post all safe and sound.......and I love the profile!
It's a hum-dinger! I am looking forward to trying it in the nets on Monday with the other chaps  :D

Glad she arrived safely! 

I've netted with it for around 5 mins so give her a good knocking in for me :p
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: FattusCattus on December 15, 2013, 07:30:16 PM
Peter - which of the lams were you able to borrow?

#givefattyagowithalam
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: petehosk on December 15, 2013, 08:05:45 PM
I think it's around 2'9 (although my digital scales are lacking in power) and edges are not massively big, which is fine with me!
But the spine is high and long. I suspect the middle may be extremely impressive!!
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Ryan on December 23, 2013, 08:53:11 PM
One of the lams have been tested with positive feedback...

http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=28072.0 (http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=28072.0)
Title: Re: Performance laminates...
Post by: Simmy on December 24, 2013, 02:39:15 PM
This lam is up for grabs

£200ono drop Ryan a PM if your interested

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5537/11531802044_76fe5fbe1a_h.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7329/11531802214_e0804e510f_h.jpg)

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/11531889703_7636f39348_h.jpg)