Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: cesare_in on December 06, 2013, 10:07:13 AM
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Guys - In your experience has there been any direct correlation of a bats performance w.r.t its weight?
I am currently using a bat that should be around 2lb 12oz to 2lb 13oz which plays awesome. The other one is great and way lighter at 2lb 8oz but has a limited sweetspot compared to the heavier one.
Very curious..
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Bat speed has a lot to do with it. The lighter the bat the higher the bat speed but if your stronger and can maintain as good a bat speed well you will hit it longer.
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Yeah basically it works down to bat speed versus power. A heavier bat will (all things being equal) be more powerful, but a lighter bat can be swung with more acceleration. For each player the sweetspot in terms of weight to generate maximum force will be different. For example for a stronger player or a big guy, a heavy bat would be better as they don't lose much bat speed but gain additional force from the heavier bat. For a lighter guy, the penalty in terms of bat speed might outweigh any benefit from using a heavier bat.
Having said that, one other thing to consider is that heavier bats can be much more forgiving, and the bat usually will have a much larger hitting zone or sweetspot (compare a 2lb 8 with a 3lb+ bat for example). You can also get away with much more in terms of mistimed shots.
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What people also forget in this equation is that this is not a linear equation. In a straight line, conservation of momentum applies and all this discussion of weight versus speed is accurate, however, the ball rarely moves in a straight line.
If you need to adjust to a change in line, a heavier bat is really not going to help, because while that extra weight may be more forgiving when hitting the ball, you still have to get bat on ball. It's not as straight forward as "relative performance" as the system is far more dynamic than just weight and bat speed.
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At the end of the day it's down to the individual, not the bat. I use a 2lb7-2lb9 bat and can hit a fairly long ball. One of the big hitters in my side uses a 3lb bat. For me I'd barely be able to swing his and he's already told me I bat with a toothpick.
Forget all this heavier bat = better performance stuff and buy something you're comfortable using, that will give better performance than trying to use a bat too light or heavy for you because you think it will go better.
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Great point Tim, that is true, the system is of course far more dynamic, and you would need to account for the ability to adjust for things such as a swinging/seaming ball, deliveries of a different length (eg full vs short). It is very different to try and drive with a heavier than usual bat vs playing the hook and the pull for example.
I think it comes down to experimentation. In my opinion, if someone wanted to try a heavier bat, maybe go for something relatively cheap eg a Grade 3 or so bat, and if you find you get on well, then maybe migrate to that weight on a full scale basis.
One last thing to also note, a heavier bat will also likely affect your stamina or endurance over a long innings. Hence while you may get on well in say a 20/20 where you only have to bat for 5-10 overs or so usually, if you were playing a 60 over match or something, you may find it affecting your game negatively over a longer innings.
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Here's another conundrum. What happens if the lighter bat is bigger(more wood) than the heavier bat? I believe(maybe falsely) the more wood the more power.
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What people also forget in this equation is that this is not a linear equation. In a straight line, conservation of momentum applies and all this discussion of weight versus speed is accurate, however, the ball rarely moves in a straight line.
If you need to adjust to a change in line, a heavier bat is really not going to help, because while that extra weight may be more forgiving when hitting the ball, you still have to get bat on ball. It's not as straight forward as "relative performance" as the system is far more dynamic than just weight and bat speed.
it doesn't move if it is a leg stump full toss ;-)
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lazza, that is actually an interesting one, if I remember correctly one of the forum members actually experimented with that by getting a bat made from a denser cleft (and hence a small bat for the weight), and I think the general conclusions was that they were not much different. Wasn't that long ago either and a pretty interesting thread.
From a physics point of view, if F = MA, ie Force = Mass x acceleration, assuming the bats were the same weight (and the characteristics of the wood used in both bats were similar), theoretically the force generated on impact with the ball should be identical or close enough anyway. Wood is of course a natural product so you could never make an absolutely perfect comparison, but Newtons law would suggest they ought to be similar in terms of hitting a ball.
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I've used heavy bats since I started playing cricket for my club big kahuna 2.13 and biggest kahuna 3lb 1, but last year I used an GM apex limited edition 2lb 8 which is the lightest bat I've used, as for performance they all fly off the middle but I admit that I had a lot more confidence using the bigger heavier bats than I did the lighter one. As mentioned before it's all down to personal preference and what you feel comfortable using.
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Timing plays a huge part too, you can have the heaviest bat in the world but if you cant time the thing, it will go no where.
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Thought I just saw a post correcting me on the difference between mass and weight, weight is related of course to gravity whist mass is constant. Having said that weight is a function of the gravity on that mass so with gravity being the same on earth, I think you can still apply that equation from a practical perspective. Still I haven't opened up a physics text in over a decade, so I could be very wrong in my illustration :)
In any case from a cricket perspective, from my experience it does not matter much. I had an MSR weigh 3lb 2oz but it was not really all that massive as you might imagine, I think you might find bats around 2.10-2.12 that had bigger edges and spines than it because of lighter clefts, but it was pretty thick throughout (so very large sweetspot) and hit the ball like a canon. I think the size of a bat may have more to do with the confidence it gives you as a player - it never hurts to see a huge hunk of wood and of course that could help you play better if you are much more confident.
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Timing plays a huge part too, you can have the heaviest bat in the world but if you cant time the thing, it will go no where.
That's was the hardest part going from heavy to light timing was way off and i couldn't get used to it at all, but I've just bought a monster of a bat for next season which I will show pics when it arrives in a week or so :)
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Its probably one of the biggest differences between us and professionals, they time the ball so sweetly and are able to find the middle so much more often compared to most of us.
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it doesn't move if it is a leg stump full toss ;-)
If you'd seen the leg stump full tosses i was bowling last night, I'm sure you wouldn't agree... As when you saw them you would have been convinced they were going to reach you on off stump....
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Its probably one of the biggest differences between us and professionals, they time the ball so sweetly and are able to find the middle so much more often compared to most of us.
no the main difference between us and professionals is that their bats are far better than ours.
isn't that right??? :o :o ;) ???
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Here's another conundrum. What happens if the lighter bat is bigger(more wood) than the heavier bat? I believe(maybe falsely) the more wood the more power.
Take a look at this thread: http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=23698.0 (http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=23698.0)
Well, you've seen the pictures of the two bats. There is a noticeable difference in the volume of willow that each contains, although the masses are just 0.2oz apart.
But what of using them? In three parts:
Knocking in/tapping up with a mallet
Quite honestly, I couldn't feel a difference. Both have decent, long middles, both rebounded very nicely off the mallet. At this stage of the test, it's made next to no difference.
Use against a Bola
Again, both are good bats, both pressed slightly differently, but to me and the others who used them, no discernible difference when middling one, and very little difference in sweet spot coverage, only down towards the toe, where shape will make the difference.
Use against real cricket balls
This is the one that everyone really wants to know. How do the two bats compare against real cricket balls. This has been done in two ways. Hitting thrown balls and facing bowlers. In neither was I able to categorically state that one performed better than the other. There felt like no difference between the two. Both are decent grade willow, both are pressed well according to the characteristics of the cleft, and both hit cricket balls in a way that, if you're a good batsman, will score you runs.
Conclusion
Here's what you've all been waiting for.
The size of the bat doesn't matter!
While this may be very disappointing to many people, the basic physics of it are that, for properly pressed willow, a mass is moving in one direction, impacting a mass moving in the opposite direction. The change in force is related for the most part to the speed and the mass directly, followed by the characteristics of the material.
As the mass and bat speed play the greatest part, whether the willow is high or low density makes next to no difference, as the physical characteristics of willow are common. If it is pressed sub-optimally, I have no doubt that there will be an impact on performance, and likewise, a laminate is changing the physical characteristics of willow, so may change the performance. Density, though, really makes no physical difference to what you wield.
The only good reason I can give for people hitting better with larger bats is that they inspire confidence in a different way.
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Yep that's the thread I was referring to in one of my earlier posts, that pretty much sums it all up. Its what I have found in my experience as well.
Agree with you Buzz, I think the difference between us and the pros is definitely the quality of those bats ;) Now if I could only source an ultra special pro cleft Grade G1+++++ bat lol!! I'd be making my test debut anyday now!!
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Unfortunately the physics of bat hitting ball is far more complicated than has been touched on and the actual maths behind it gets quite complicated. You cannot simply take two bats hit some balls and then, because you can't discern a difference, conclude that properties of the wood are negligible. If we were to try and develop a bat performance index there would be a huge number of calculations. Which is probably why no-one has done it. The key factors will be;
The moment of inertia of the bat; this is the torque required to alter the angular velocity of the bat, it's more relevant than dead weight,
Node locations and center of percussion; This is essentially the sweet spot, the area where maximum energy is imparted to the ball due to less energy being dissipated as vibrations. The bigger the sweet spot the better.
The stiffness of the bat face; Something to quantify the rebound characteristics of the bat, We could use the Coefficient of restitution however I'm pretty sure that would be relative to velocity. I imagine low density willow would allow the bat to have greater structural rigidity, carbon backing/inserts would have done a similar thing before they were banned.
This would allow us to create an index which quantifies performance by relating the force required to swing the bat to the resultant velocity of the ball. We could determine how often a junior, club player, semi pro and professional player would hit the sweet spot and then assign weightings accordingly. Equating the three would give us a figure quantifying performance.
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I think in general a heavier bat will hit the ball better. When I'm selecting a bat I try to go for the heaviest / biggest bat I can that still 'feels' light in the hand. (i.e. all about pick up).
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2lb 12 game bat and I hit the ball far further with a 2lb 9oz one.. Go figure
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The pro's used to use tiny bats in a big weight and it used to travel big..
Interesting the trade weight or bat speed
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Pretty near impossible and pointless to quantitatively measure performance, as it varies for everyone as everyone has a different preference. Find a bat that you like the weight, pick up and feel of which taps up well. If you can score plenty runs with it, then what's the point in going for something that may perform better? There are many factors which make a bat perform, but in the end, it has to suit the user!
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no the main difference between us and professionals is that their bats are far better than ours.
isn't that right??? :o :o ;) ???
That's my excuse sorted for this season,
Nowt to do with me being crap! Ho hum
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Both Gayle and Pollard use 2lb 9oz.
Lance Klusner used to use 3lb 6oz
Who hits it further? Matter of opinion!
"It's not the size of the bat, more the size of the player whelding it and his relative bat speed"
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Both Gayle and Pollard use 2lb 9oz.
Lance Klusner used to use 3lb 6oz
Who hits it further? Matter of opinion!
"It's not the size of the bat, more the size of the player whelding it and his relative bat speed"
I don't buy into this size of the bat vs size of the player stuff, it's still all down to timing in my mind...
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I don't buy into this size of the bat vs size of the player stuff, it's still all down to timing in my mind...
Then why can't 5ft6 James Taylor hit the ball as far a 6ft6 Gayle or Pollard.
I don't want to sound like a know-it-all but it is pure physics at that level. Don't get me wrong, timing is VERY important, but force is a key variable, it is why "Power Hitting" is now a key topic in the cricketing world.
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Both Gayle and Pollard use 2lb 9oz.
Lance Klusner used to use 3lb 6oz
Who hits it further? Matter of opinion!
"It's not the size of the bat, more the size of the player whelding it and his relative bat speed"
I thought Gayle used something around 3lb?
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In the last IPL they both admitted they use 2lb9 :)
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Then why can't 5ft6 James Taylor hit the ball as far a 6ft6 Gayle or Pollard.
I don't want to sound like a know-it-all but it is pure physics at that level. Don't get me wrong, timing is VERY important, but force is a key variable, it is why "Power Hitting" is now a key topic in the cricketing world.
You've answered your own question there - physics! By default, being a foot taller they'll have longer arms (leavers), so a ball timed equally well by both players is going to behave differently. Longer leavers = more bat speed from the same swing distance at the top of the leaver (shoulders), like you said, pure physics and probably a different topic again...
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I think it's pretty simple... All things being equal - ie same willow properties, same pressing and same profile hitting a ball at the same timing with the same bat speed - the heavier bat will hit the ball further. It's simple physics!
But all those things are never equal. So use what feels "right" in terms of pickup, pings well for you and suits your style of play.
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I always think in terms of depth of willow behind the impact area. That takes out the weight and density argument, X amount of force on 60mm thickness will be far better than X amount of force on 35mm.
So, doesn't matter about how heavy your bat is, use the middle ;)