Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Players => Topic started by: imran75 on December 17, 2013, 09:13:26 AM
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Morning all,
So, he's not had the best series. He's not the only one but he's not had the best few months either. Thus far, he's been the best option for us as his keeping has been as close to faultless as we can get. This test (arguably this series) he's fluffed chances that he normally would have taken and, more importantly, they have turned out to be defining moments. Missing a couple of stumpings last innings springs to mind immediately.
With his keeping now suffering as well as his batting, is it kinder to give him a break? Let him get his head together and find some form? I don't think changing things mid-way through a series is the way forward but I imagine that we'll see a different test wicketkeeper next series.
if that's the case, the question is, who would be the best replacement? Kiesey, Baristow, Buttler are in the frame but they aren't good enough yet...Maybe returning to someone like James Foster?
thoughts?
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My thoughts are that there is no point in going back to foster or read, and I don't think that any of the others are a good enough all rounder to fill the role! Prior is struggling, but I doubt any-one else who came in will do a better job at the moment. I can't understand why Bairstow is even there to be honest!
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Davies in my opinion is the next best thing. or Keiswetter
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My thoughts are that there is no point in going back to foster or read, and I don't think that any of the others are a good enough all rounder to fill the role! Prior is struggling, but I doubt any-one else who came in will do a better job at the moment. I can't understand why Bairstow is even there to be honest!
Yeah agreed about Read, although Foster has been having a pretty good season, and could be a good interim until either Prior finds some form or one of the others improves. Completely agree about Bairstow - he's a waste of a place in the squad.
Davies in my opinion is the next best thing. or Keiswetter
Yeah. maybe Davies...I'm not sold on Kieswetter as a Test player; just don't think he's good enough....
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I think Prior should be dropped as he's done nothing in the last year, although the real problem is who replaces him? Bairstow is not good enough at batting or keeping to play.
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I don't think anyone is banging down the door.
The most accomplished gloveman apart from Foster and Read is Davies. If Stokes or someone grabs hold of the number 6 position and owns it then England can afford to sacrifice the batting capabilities of their WK and pick the next best glove man I feel they are trying to groom a keeper out of a decent batsman at the moment. A batting allrounder gives the option to play an out an out keeper who's batting might need improvement. Davies should've been Prior's understudy years ago.
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Needs to spend more time on his batting and keeping and less time getting involved with the Aussie players!!!!
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IMO, Davies is the best bet. He's a better keeper than Prior and is a good enough batsman. Kieswetter worries me, and I'm still not convinced Buttler handles pressure all that well when batting
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Davies should've been Prior's understudy years ago.
Absolutely...One can't help feeling that the fact he hasn't been brought through is something to do with his openness about his sexuality. He was England's next big thing until he came out. I know it's not the PC thing to say but it does seem a little odd. A discussion for another time perhaps.
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I think he should certainly sit out the rest of the series; I'm not sure how anyone benefits from Prior staying in the side in this kind of form. His confidence looks shot and frankly I think his allround performances are becoming embarrassing. This series probably signals the start of a difficult transition period for the team (as much as the phrase is overused) and I think the experienced players who are retained need to have the right attitude to lead/drag the team through tough games at times - Prior lacks that quality and temperament for me.
As Bairstow is the de facto alternative in the squad then I think he should come in for the remaining Tests. However, I don't rate his batting highly and what I've heard from others about his 'keeping suggests that he's unlikely to be able to nail down that spot. Buttler in my eyes is not likely to become a Test batsman regardless of 'keeping ability but seems popular with the decision makers in the England setup. Foakes definitely too inexperienced at this stage. Read (off the back of a dreadful season) and Foster (whose glovework is massively overrated based on his ability standing up to medium pacers in one-dayers) are not the answer in the short or long term in my opinion; if they want to go down that route then Ambrose has been in better form in recent seasons. Kieswetter and Davies represent the best balance of experience and potential with Davies better suited in my opinion. I also like John Simpson at Middlesex but probably well short of Test class.
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Absolutely...One can't help feeling that the fact he hasn't been brought through is something to do with his openness about his sexuality. He was England's next big thing until he came out. I know it's not the PC thing to say but it does seem a little odd. A discussion for another time perhaps.
I disagree with this, regardless of political correctness. While I agree that the co-incidence of his 'coming out' (although everyone within the set up was already aware) and his dropping was unfortunate, I think it was exactly that. Davies' form had dipped drastically until the season past (he admits that he was badly affected by Maynard's death and stopped enjoying the game) and with Prior's form being so consistent 'prior' to the last year, England haven't really focused on an understudy (I wouldn't consider Bairstow as such)
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Davies never scores runs for me on Cricket Captain, therefore stick with Prior. He's having a bad spell, he'll get through it.
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Whoever I personally think is the best WK for the England team, surely Bairstow as the reserve test keeper deserves a chance in the team. The selectors must have thought he was next best to Prior when the squad was selected so should have conviction to play him. I feel sorry for some of the England reserve players that it appear no matter how poorly established players perform they don't get a chance.
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Prior should stay as their number one keeper for the series next Summer.
I don't think at this stage that we have seen anything other than perhaps the ability of the Australians to bowl at his strengths and turn them into weaknesses, and I am far from convinced that any opponent England face in the next eighteen months have the quality of seam attack to do that. As such, he'll click into gear again and, lets face it, the Prior of every test up to the Summer is a guy we want in the side.
There is a certain argument toward resting him for the final to games of the series though; it would be good experience for Bairstow, who is going to be the long term successor whatever anyone may think. If English planning, like Australian, centres on the Ashes, then it would be good for him to have played test cricket in Aussie conditions before going down there in 2017.
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Absolutely...One can't help feeling that the fact he hasn't been brought through is something to do with his openness about his sexuality. He was England's next big thing until he came out. I know it's not the PC thing to say but it does seem a little odd. A discussion for another time perhaps.
I don't know that that had anything to do with his slide from prominence really - I suspect he was one of those players who was thought to be the best we had rather than quite of the top standard, just like Phil Mustard who was his immediate predecessor in the one day side. And, lets be fair, he probably suffered both form and perception wise from his time in the poisonous Slurrey dressing room of Hamilton-Brown et al.
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I disagree with this, regardless of political correctness. While I agree that the co-incidence of his 'coming out' (although everyone within the set up was already aware) and his dropping was unfortunate, I think it was exactly that. Davies' form had dipped drastically until the season past (he admits that he was badly affected by Maynard's death and stopped enjoying the game) and with Prior's form being so consistent 'prior' to the last year, England haven't really focused on an understudy (I wouldn't consider Bairstow as such)
I don't know that that had anything to do with his slide from prominence really - I suspect he was one of those players who was thought to be the best we had rather than quite of the top standard, just like Phil Mustard who was his immediate predecessor in the one day side. And, lets be fair, he probably suffered both form and perception wise from his time in the poisonous Slurrey dressing room of Hamilton-Brown et al.
Fair enough, it probably was unfortunate coincidence. I do think that the timing could have been managed better though. I'm sure that there are/will be others in the county game who are gay but feel that if they come out it will damage their chances of progressing. Perhaps a more sensitively managed transition for Davies might have been more sensible in the long run. Maybe i'm overthinking it and a policy of "treat everyone the same, regardless" is what they were going for. Slightly off topic!
Bairstow's selection, however, has always been a bit of an enigma to me. He might have been good enough at county level but it's pretty clear that he's woefully out of his depth at Test level. I can't believe they brought him on tour. If they wanted to blood a young 'keeper, why not Buttler?
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I think the problem with dropping prior is that they will bring some-one in for the long term, as this England management (rightly or wrongly; you decide) seems to do, and at the moment there seems to be no long term replacement. Remember Compton was dropped because Root was the long term option, so dropping Prior will mean giving some-one a bloody good go at it, and there is no-one banging down the door. Kieswetter is not international standard, Buttler has got a pea heart (Bitter Somerset fan), and Davies I don't know enough about and didn't set the world alight in FC last year did he (genuine question)? Foster and Read are too old, and the rest are outstanding keepers who can't bat (Foakes, Bates etc.). Like it or not, you won't get into the test side as a keeper unless you can bat.
And to suggest that Davies got dropped because he's gay, is hugely disappointing, and in this day and age.... downright wrong! If he felt that was the case, he would have gone to the papers about it!
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I thought it was interesting to hear Shane Warne say he'd pick Healy in front of Gilcrist in his all time Aussie 11. His reasoning being the top 6 should score the runs and that we it came to the crunch you want your best gloveman behind the stumps. Gilcrist changed the way we all view keepers and made everyone expect more from them than is probably fair as he was truly a one off (I don't count Sangakkara as a successful test gloveman).
Having a high average is great but no point if you drop catches or miss stumpings - that pulls the whole team down. If England are in true transition then I think they should have a think about trailing out the best keepers in the country not the best batters who have gloves in their bag - imho Bairstow, Butler etc.
On this basis, not just because of his lack of runs, I would drop Prior.
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Bairstow's selection, however, has always been a bit of an enigma to me. He might have been good enough at county level but it's pretty clear that he's woefully out of his depth at Test level. I can't believe they brought him on tour. If they wanted to blood a young 'keeper, why not Buttler?
I think Buttler may be seen as a better prospect with the gloves in the long run but a bit more 'raw' in the longer form than Bairstow. I imagine they are working intensely on bringing his all round game up to scratch. Being first choice at Lancashire should certainly help next season
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I'm not sure that even though Bates etc. are undoubdetly the best 'keepers' in the country, I don't know that their strengths make them a better bet in the test side tbh.
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I'm not sure that even though Bates etc. are undoubdetly the best 'keepers' in the country, I don't know that their strengths make them a better bet in the test side tbh.
Bates is one of, if not the best keepers I've seen live.
Unfortunately his batting wasn't deemed good enough so Hampshire signed Wheater (who's batting last year was crap anyway!)
I can remember Bates being picked as a keeper and Wheater as a batsman in the same game a few times, that should tell you all you need to know about ones glove work and ones batting really...
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Bates is one of, if not the best keepers I've seen live.
Unfortunately his batting wasn't deemed good enough so Hampshire signed Wheater (who's batting last year was crap anyway!)
I can remember Bates being picked as a keeper and Wheater as a batsman in the same game a few times, that should tell you all you need to know about ones glove work and ones batting really...
Agreed, neither of them good enough to merit consideration
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No matter how much I think Prior really could do with being dropped I can't see the current England set up going through with it. They persist with players too long hoping they will get a return to form which is what the lower levels of cricket are for in my opinion.
Bates is one of, if not the best keepers I've seen live.
Unfortunately his batting wasn't deemed good enough so Hampshire signed Wheater (who's batting last year was crap anyway!)
I can remember Bates being picked as a keeper and Wheater as a batsman in the same game a few times, that should tell you all you need to know about ones glove work and ones batting really...
I'm really hoping they pick both of them again in the starting team this year as they did in the last few games of last season. His keeping is really superb and stunning to watch at times, especially in the one day stuff.
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I thought it was interesting to hear Shane Warne say he'd pick Healy in front of Gilcrist in his all time Aussie 11. His reasoning being the top 6 should score the runs and that we it came to the crunch you want your best gloveman behind the stumps. Gilcrist changed the way we all view keepers and made everyone expect more from them than is probably fair as he was truly a one off (I don't count Sangakkara as a successful test gloveman).
Having a high average is great but no point if you drop catches or miss stumpings - that pulls the whole team down. If England are in true transition then I think they should have a think about trailing out the best keepers in the country not the best batters who have gloves in their bag - imho Bairstow, Butler etc.
On this basis, not just because of his lack of runs, I would drop Prior.
Warne didn't quite say that. Gilly was in his best 11 but he admitted Healy was a better gloveman. There you have the problem, in the non-romantic world of test cricket your number 7 has to score runs, including centuries. If you think playing a guy with 2 test caps (and alot of talent) at 6 means you are guaranteed runs then you must be joking. What it does do is give you that 4th seamer option. That allows you to bowl the other seamers at full pelt and hopefully creating more chances - that doesn't just mean caught to the keeper. In many ways Stokes batting 6 confirms the need for a batting keeper.
I wouldn't be surprised if JB has been working very hard on his keeping all tour. In my opinion he has been lined up as Prior's test replacement for a while. Butler isn't far behind and when you have his ability there is no reason why you can't transfer it to test matches. How did KP start?
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No matter how much I think Prior really could do with being dropped I can't see the current England set up going through with it. They persist with players too long hoping they will get a return to form which is what the lower levels of cricket are for in my opinion.
I'm really hoping they pick both of them again in the starting team this year as they did in the last few games of last season. His keeping is really superb and stunning to watch at times, especially in the one day stuff.
1) I think this raises an interesting point as in recent times the England management have seemed very reluctant to use the county system to develop players once they have been identified as prospects and inducted into the setup. I understand the need to manage workloads etc. but think they can be overly protective at the expense of players gaining confidence and/or experience. The 'closed shop' accusations have some basis in my opinion, the setup all looks a bit insular right now
2) Depending on their overseas situation, I can see Hampshire going this way more often next season unless Will Smith becomes an immediate fixture in the middle order
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Flower is nothing but ruthless. With the series gone he might send Anderson off for a break and drop KP/Prior. More likely he will keep them until the end of the series and make it clear they are playing for their futures. Look at Compton and how decisive Flower was. He won't take it lightly though.
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I think Buttler may be seen as a better prospect with the gloves in the long run but a bit more 'raw' in the longer form than Bairstow. I imagine they are working intensely on bringing his all round game up to scratch. Being first choice at Lancashire should certainly help next season
they're much of a muchness with the gloves at the moment, but I think they view Bairstow as the more likely test run scorer, whilst they prefer Buttler's ability s a finisher in the one day stuff.
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it wasnt his coming out that affected Davies, it was Maynards death. He got depression and was on the verge of quitting cricket. His parents talked him into taking a winter off to gather his thoughts. He therefore didnt tour with England or go on the Lions / Peformce squad tour, the lieks of Bairstow then took their chance to push for the number 2 spot. I agree he is the next best for England and is the only other genuine keeper batsmen other than perhaps Keiswetter.
However im not sure Prior should be dropped, certainly not unless most of the others are dropped aswell. Not sure you can single him out for one bad test series and not the others
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1) I think this raises an interesting point as in recent times the England management have seemed very reluctant to use the county system to develop players once they have been identified as prospects and inducted into the setup. I understand the need to manage workloads etc. but think they can be overly protective at the expense of players gaining confidence and/or experience. The 'closed shop' accusations have some basis in my opinion, the setup all looks a bit insular right now
2) Depending on their overseas situation, I can see Hampshire going this way more often next season unless Will Smith becomes an immediate fixture in the middle order
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Last I heard they were talking to 3 overseas bowlers so there should potentially be a gap there for him depending on who they pick for the batting department.
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Agreed, neither of them good enough to merit consideration
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At the moment, in time Bates will only improve and he may well force himself into consideration, if not the side. He has a first class hundred so he's no mug with the bat by any means.
As for Wheater I didn't say he was good enough to be considered, he was more to highlight the batting/keeping dilemma of the modern game.
I'm really hoping they pick both of them again in the starting team this year as they did in the last few games of last season. His keeping is really superb and stunning to watch at times, especially in the one day stuff.
In an ideal world they'd pick just Bates and let his batting develop but I can't see that happening. I really do rate him as a keeper (nice bloke too)
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Let's not forget Mark Boucher looked like a rabbit in the headlights when he started his test career. Truly awful behind the stumps for his first few overseas tours. He worked incredibly hard and forged himself into one of the all time greats. 555 tests dismissals will stand as a record for a very long time, if not forever.
So I see no problem blooding any potential young replacement, providing they are given the time and opportunity to work hard to improve their skills and prove they have what it takes, not just whipped out of the team at the first opportunity like Compton.
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no, stick with Prior - why has he been in such a dip for so long??? thats the question you need to answer.
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Boucher came into a settled side though, with enough allrounders down the order to hide his basic batting ability at that time. England would be looking for more.
I think Bairstow at six and Stokes at seven has legs if Prior is stood down for a series or two.
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No, on the basis that no one on here has identified a clear alternative. England demand a wk batsman. The options described here either lack keeping or batting, are too old or too inexperienced.
in a similar way to avoiding dropping your proven players in a run of bad form, keep in a guy that had proven his abilities worldwide for a lot longer than his dip in form. By all means identify some successors but for me I'll take prior's track record over unproven, ill prepared, technically deficient alternatives. For now.
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Just to clarify, i realise i didn't actually say it at all. I think dropping Prior is a terrible call. Fair enough if there was a fantastic gloveman scoring buckets of runs in FC cricket, you can't ignore someone who is banging down the door, but there isn't anyone at the moment.
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No, on the basis that no one on here has identified a clear alternative. England demand a wk batsman. The options described here either lack keeping or batting, are too old or too inexperienced.
in a similar way to avoiding dropping your proven players in a run of bad form, keep in a guy that had proven his abilities worldwide for a lot longer than his dip in form. By all means identify some successors but for me I'll take prior's track record over unproven, ill prepared, technically deficient alternatives. For now.
I think most mentioned would perform than Prior currently is but take your point. Form aside, I would suggest that Davies is currently the better overall player but probably the only one on the list I would say that for. However, it's worth remembering how much Prior's game improved 'on the job' even coming into the side at a reasonably late age. Many of these names are more complete players than he was then. Also, as much as continuity is desirable, some of the current deficiencies in the side need to be addressed sooner rather than later and Prior looks to be the weakest link at the moment. It's not as though there are ready-made replacements available for other weak areas either...
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he is rubbish, must be someone better
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Didn't Prior get 60 odd in previous test?
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he is rubbish, must be someone better
Hes not rubbish though is he, 3 poor performances doesnt constitute you suddenly beocming a rubbish player. If he continues like this for 12 months then fair enough start to think about it, but 3 games, no. Hes had a dip in form thats all.
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Hes not rubbish though is he, 3 poor performances doesnt constitute you suddenly beocming a rubbish player. If he continues like this for 12 months then fair enough start to think about it, but 3 games, no. Hes had a dip in form thats all.
He was poor in the summer ashes series as well - it is a rather prolonged dip in form....
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Prior got away with a couple of missed stumpings (Clarke at Lords) and dropped catches during the summer but because overall the team was doing well it was overlooked. It is this kind of complacency that has got England in it's current state. There needs to be consequences to not performing. This train of thought has the selectors concentrating on the failings of the bowling attack and bringing in allrounders when England have had 20 innings without scoring 400 and the Aussies were 1000 runs ahead in the series on Sunday.
Prior has been a fantastic player for England and I don't believe you become a bad player overnight however (as one person has already commented on) he's always been "working on" being a keeper, it's never been in the same bracket as his batting. He's rarely guaranteed the gloves when he goes back to Sussex and hasn't done since he started playing for England. Like many others he's struggled on this tour but without runs I feel his place is up for grabs by either a better keeper or a better batter. At the moment you're not getting much out of him and haven't done since 2012
Would anyone play him as a batter and play a better keeper dropping Bresnan (or another)?
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He did save our bacon massively in NZ though. I think most of the senior players need to rest up. Let's have a look at some new blood in the summer.
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Just to add to a few comments about Prior not being the only one needing a break, I did some statsguru analysis of the last 12 months:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;spanmax1=17+Dec+2013;spanmin1=17+Dec+2012;spanval1=span;team=1;template=results;type=batting (http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;spanmax1=17+Dec+2013;spanmin1=17+Dec+2012;spanval1=span;team=1;template=results;type=batting)
Makes for interesting reading (If the link works). Prior's tour to NZ massively impacted his figures, i think he averaged 103 or something on that tour, whilst over the last 12 months, he's around 31.
Cook and KP's averages are interesting as well - both around 33. Not what you'd expect at all.
Like The_Bird said, perhaps everyone needs a bit of a break.
*Edit:
This is what it looks like without the NZ series, only looking at players who have played more than 5 matches (there were a couple who had only played one or two):
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=5;qualval1=matches;spanmax2=31+Dec+2013;spanmin2=01+May+2013;spanval2=span;team=1;template=results;type=batting (http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=5;qualval1=matches;spanmax2=31+Dec+2013;spanmin2=01+May+2013;spanval2=span;team=1;template=results;type=batting)
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he is supposed to be the best wicketkeeper in England, he is missing stumpings and dropping catches. He is not performing with the bat and is getting on in years.
He had to play in the ashes as like you say his form dipped in summer but one bad series doesnt mean he should be dropped but 2 on the bounce is unacceptable at international level and this late stage in his career.
If Haddin had performed like Prior, it would be 3-0 to England. He saved them on a lot of occasions where as prior dropped England even further in trouble.
There must be someone who keep as bad as him and score more runs ... kieswetter or buttler arent that bad are they?
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My retort to this would be "and bring in who?!".
It is an art form which has been neglected over the years, with the introduction of Adam Gilchrist. Very few are going to have that ability with Bat and Glove again - Dhoni being the obvious comparison.
Who in England is good enough with bat, or gloves, to replace Matt? I would argue, currently, noone.
Buttler and Kieswetter are the two obvious candidates for me - however, they need ALOT of work done on their techniques - this will take time. They cannot be thrown into test cricket and be expected to operate at the level Matt has been working at for the past few years.
It is obvious that Matt needs a break, but I don't think dropping him for good is a viable option with the people we have in reserve.
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Didn't Prior get 60 odd in previous test?
after he had 3 prior innings totalling 4 runs and 13 balls!!!!
He got 60 when it was irrelevant.
now the series is lost, watch these players who failed (cook, pietersen, prior) get some runs.
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If Haddin had performed like Prior, it would be 3-0 to England.
I don't think that would be quite true...
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Pretty harsh comments about a guy who was voted Englands play of the year last year.
Also, isn't he vice captain, so replacing him is alot harder then just looking for the next best keeper/batsman. He brings alot to the side other than what the stats show.
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Agree on the point of a lot of tired bodies and minds in the side. I think that has particularly shown in the cases of Anderson and Swann who haven't looked to have the energy to offer anything different from their stock balls when put under pressure. Hence my comment about rotating the bowlers more conscientiously in the best XI topic. I think a lot of calls for changes are being misinterpreted as knee jerk reactions whereas in many cases it is a response to seeing some of these guys almost on their knees and questioning what keeping them out on the field for the rest of the series will achieve. Even Root whose youthful exuberance shone at the start of the year is looking jaded and lifeless in his batting.
However, in the case of Prior I think it is more of a problem than fatigue. Although we obviously don't see what happens behind closed doors, Prior's on-field attitude stinks so it's difficult to see what more he's 'bringing to the side' than his recent weak-willed batting performances and sloppy 'keeping. For me, he epitomises the worst side of this England team, loud and smug when rolling over sides but petulant and cowardly when the heat is turned back on him. England need stronger leaders than him moving forward and I think his time has passed
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I have mentioned his name before but Sam Billings at Kent is a very talanted keeper batsmen. Now I'm not saying that he should be in the team or even squad now as Garient Jones has kept him out the 4 day side at kent but this is because of the amount Kent lay jones to keep at least 1 big name at the county.
I have played against him and watched him on a number if occasions and at 19 or 20 now maybe he is a very talanted player Nd someone who IMO should be in with a shout of making a good career at Top level in years to come.
At the moment I honestly do not feel there is anyone better to come in and reace him. There is an argument that says well the ashes is gone and you lot mucked it up so no harm in others they can't do anything worse but I think that would be a massive kick to players that have formed one of the greatest England sides in a generation. Also talk of dropping players after a few bad tests is nonsense. Yes some are coming to end of there careers but look what gapped to Aus when you made whole changes to the side in 12 months. Yes England do need to look at getting replacements ready for the likes of Trott, Anderson, prior etc but 1 or 2 at a time not like is being mentioned and dropping 5-6 on mass.
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In fairness, I'm not sure that many have called for wholesale changes. Prior's slump in form goes back further than anyone else in the squad and is now extended enough to indicate serious underlying problems that at his age and stage of career should not really exist
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Prior should be dropped plain and simple.
Has not done the business and looks a club 2nd eleven keeper at best at minute.
I love his brand of cricket but he is not at the races but there are others but i will keep supporting the boys no matter what.
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I reckon Jos Buttler will definitely be England's future test wicketkeeper without a doubt :)
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I reckon Jos Buttler will definitely be England's future test wicketkeeper without a doubt :)
Well Bairstow spends most of the day picking the ball up off the floor so if Buttler is next in line I wouldn't have thought he'll have to wait long!
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Yeah Buttler's definitely a better keeper than Bairstow and batsman in my opinion