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General Cricket => World Cricket => Topic started by: Manormanic on January 07, 2014, 11:56:35 AM
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http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/707723.html (http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/707723.html)
Michael Clarke said similar a few days ago. Interesting question this - how do people compare the South African and Australian attacks (which for me are the best in the world right now - New Zealand and Pakistan are decent, England's needs remodelling and India, Sri Lanka, Bnagladesh and the West Indies nowhere).
I'd suggest comparing either the best five man line up for both (with one of the five having to be good enough to bat in the top seven) or the best five seamers, an all rounder and two spinners (to reflect the composition of a normal touring party)...
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Five man attacks:
Dale Steyn - vs - Mitchell Johnson
Vernon Philander - vs - Ryan Harris
Morne Morkel - vs- Peter Siddle
Ryan McClaren - vs - Shane WAtson
Robin Peterson - vs - Nathan Lyon
What do you think (I'm going to defer my comments for a change!)
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In terms of depth, I'd say Australia easily has the best going around. The current list of fast bowlers not in the test side are Jimmy Pattinson, Mitch Starc, Pat Cummins, Jackson Bird, James Faulkner, Ben Hilfenhaus, Doug Bollinger, all have at least one Test cap, then you have Nathan Coulter-Nile, Josh Hazelwood who are uncapped. I also fancy Jason Behrendorf (?) from WA, another tall left-armer who can swing it. That is an embarrassment of talent in the wings, and I doubt any other country, Sth Africa included, would have that in reserve. As far as Steyn/Morkel/Philander v Johnson/Harris/Siddle, I'd give it to the Sth African trio, just. NZ are building well with Southee and Boult as an opening combo, with Wagner a decent first change.
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Five man attacks:
Dale Steyn - vs - Mitchell Johnson
Vernon Philander - vs - Ryan Harris
Morne Morkel - vs- Peter Siddle
Ryan McClaren - vs - Shane WAtson
Robin Peterson - vs - Nathan Lyon
What do you think (I'm going to defer my comments for a change!)
Id say the match up is like this
Steyn vs Harris (leaders of the attacks)
Philander vs Siddle (workhorses)
Morkel vs Johnson (speed demons)
R. Peterson vs Lyon
McLaren/Parnell/Morris vs Watson.
The forth seamer for the Proteas will be a bowling all rounder, whereas Watson is now more a batting all rounder.
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Here are the current (post ashes) bowling rankings
http://www.lgiccrankings.com/ranking/test/bowling/ (http://www.lgiccrankings.com/ranking/test/bowling/)
remember 900 is classed an all time great...
1 909 V.D. Philander SA 912 v India, 18/12/2013
2 901 D.W. Steyn SA 908 v Pakistan, 01/02/2013
3 866 R.J. Harris AUS 866 v England, 03/01/2014
4 826 H.M.R.K.B. Herath SL 838 v New Zealand, 25/11/2012
5 799 Saeed Ajmal PAK 855 v Zimbabwe, 03/09/2013
6 779 P.M. Siddle AUS 816 v England, 01/08/2013
7 759 R. Ashwin IND 808 v West Indies, 14/11/2013
8 743 M.G. Johnson AUS 825 v England, 08/07/2009
9 741 P.P. Ojha IND 773 v England, 05/12/2012
10 729 T.A. Boult NZ 729 v West Indies, 19/12/2013
10 729 S.C.J. Broad ENG 783 v West Indies, 17/05/2012
12 707 M. Morkel SA 776 v Australia, 09/11/2011
13 699 T.G. Southee NZ 699 v West Indies, 19/12/2013
14 696 Abdur Rehman PAK 739 v England, 03/02/2012
15 683 J.M. Anderson ENG 813 v India, 10/08/2011
16 649 K.A.J. Roach WI 712 v New Zealand, 02/08/2012
17 627 B.W. Hilfenhaus AUS 757 v West Indies, 19/04/2012
18 618 N.M. Lyon AUS 648 v England, 26/12/2013
whomever you choose - and I think there is nothing in it - but with the Aussies shading it on current form and because Lyon is better than the SA spin option - Craig McDermott is the bowling coach I most want coaching my team.
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In terms of depth, I'd say Australia easily has the best going around. The current list of fast bowlers not in the test side are Jimmy Pattinson, Mitch Starc, Pat Cummins, Jackson Bird, James Faulkner, Ben Hilfenhaus, Doug Bollinger, all have at least one Test cap, then you have Nathan Coulter-Nile, Josh Hazelwood who are uncapped. I also fancy Jason Behrendorf (?) from WA, another tall left-armer who can swing it. That is an embarrassment of talent in the wings, and I doubt any other country, Sth Africa included, would have that in reserve. As far as Steyn/Morkel/Philander v Johnson/Harris/Siddle, I'd give it to the Sth African trio, just. NZ are building well with Southee and Boult as an opening combo, with Wagner a decent first change.
Both have pretty deep reserves - South Africa have Abbott, De Lange, Parnell, Tsotsobe and a couple others.
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Such a dearth of young spinners who don't simply bowl darts. Would argue that only Ajmal significantly augments an attack as a twirler. Herath is Sri Lanka's attack, I suppose.
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Id say the match up is like this
Steyn vs Harris (leaders of the attacks)
Philander vs Siddle (workhorses)
Morkel vs Johnson (speed demons)
R. Peterson vs Lyon
McLaren/Parnell/Morris vs Watson.
The forth seamer for the Proteas will be a bowling all rounder, whereas Watson is now more a batting all rounder.
I went for the seam attacks in the order they were given the ball, but agree that this is just as reasonable a way of looking at it.
For me, head to head, the South Africans win two clearly, one narrowly, draw one and lose one.
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Such a dearth of young spinners who don't simply bowl darts. Would argue that only Ajmal significantly augments an attack as a twirler. Herath is Sri Lanka's attack, I suppose.
and Herath is, if we're honest, nothing special outside of Sri Lanka.
Looking at that list, its worrying to think how a generation of world class spinners/chuckers - Warne, Murali, Kumble, Singh, Mushtaq, Saqlain et al - have been replaced by Ajmal and a lot of guys who don't really spin the ball. I deride Lyon as a clubbie but when the other test players have as their best spinners Panesar, Herath, Petersen, Ashwin, Narine, Martin, al-Hasan he doesn't look quite as bad!
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Steyn
Morkel
Big vern
Ajmal
Siddle
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I'd pick Mitchell over Siddle in that attack as he'd have to bat seven.
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and Herath is, if we're honest, nothing special outside of Sri Lanka.
Looking at that list, its worrying to think how a generation of world class spinners/chuckers - Warne, Murali, Kumble, Singh, Mushtaq, Saqlain et al - have been replaced by Ajmal and a lot of guys who don't really spin the ball. I deride Lyon as a clubbie but when the other test players have as their best spinners Panesar, Herath, Petersen, Ashwin, Narine, Martin, al-Hasan he doesn't look quite as bad!
T20 has killed spin.
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I'd pick Mitchell over Siddle in that attack as he'd have to bat seven.
Yea your probably right.
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Five man attacks:
Dale Steyn - vs - Mitchell Johnson
Vernon Philander - vs - Ryan Harris
Morne Morkel - vs- Peter Siddle
Ryan McClaren - vs - Shane WAtson
Robin Peterson - vs - Nathan Lyon
What do you think (I'm going to defer my comments for a change!)
Easy this Really
Steyn all day every day twice on Sundays
Harris
Sidle
Mclaren far more reliable as a bowler but Watson as a batter but as were talking about bowling attack mclaren
Lyon not as bad as everyone makes out.
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T20 has killed spin.
I see why you would say that but I don't think it is quite as simple as that - all of the bowlers I mentioned did fine in their T20 experiences. I think it might have as much to do with the move toward Chief Executives Pitches. Mitchell Johnson or Dale Steyn, bowling well, will be a threat on anything, but none but the best spinner will do much on a slow flat shirtfront.
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Easy this Really
Steyn all day every day twice on Sundays
Harris
Sidle
Mclaren far more reliable as a bowler but Watson as a batter but as were talking about bowling attack mclaren
Lyon not as bad as everyone makes out.
With those five I agree with you on three (Steyn, McLaren and Lyon) and would prefer Harris myself even if stats seem to suggest that Philander is the better bet because I suspect that may have something to do with any new ball bowler who can nibble it being quids in with Steyn at the other end. But I'd go Morkel over Siddle - as much because I wouldn't want four right armers of around 5 foot 10 as anything.
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I see why you would say that but I don't think it is quite as simple as that - all of the bowlers I mentioned did fine in their T20 experiences. I think it might have as much to do with the move toward Chief Executives Pitches. Mitchell Johnson or Dale Steyn, bowling well, will be a threat on anything, but none but the best spinner will do much on a slow flat shirtfront.
True, but if they're international class or better then they should. In the modern game, however, even in India the spinners are now bowling flatter than three day old diet coke. Jadeja is being picked as no 1 spinner in test matches! A sad occurrence.
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On their tour of India (where the wickets spun as you'd expect) Lyon took very few wickets and got smashed around a bit, Ashwin took 29 wickets in 4 tests. Lyon did well in the ashes because (in my opinion) the England batsman played him extremely poorly on some pretty flat wickets (let's be honest). Not saying Ashwin is an incredible bowler (I think he has potential) but Lyon has been flattered in the ashes.
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True, but if they're international class or better then they should. In the modern game, however, even in India the spinners are now bowling flatter than three day old diet coke. Jadeja is being picked as no 1 spinner in test matches! A sad occurrence.
I don't know about that - there are spinners who give it some air, such as Harbhajan (though he is nowhere near as good as he used to be), Mishra and Chawla - but the chosen ones seem to be Ashwin, Jadeja and Ojha who all seem to meet the modern perception of a spinner being someone to block up an end and frustrate wickets.
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On their tour of India (where the wickets spun as you'd expect) Lyon took very few wickets and got smashed around a bit, Ashwin took 29 wickets in 4 tests. Lyon did well in the ashes because (in my opinion) the England batsman played him extremely poorly on some pretty flat wickets (let's be honest). Not saying Ashwin is an incredible bowler (I think he has potential) but Lyon has been flattered in the ashes.
There's a reason why Lyon got smashed around...
In the Ashes, he did okay because England broke down mentally - the three times a batsman went after him (Bell in Adelaide, BAirstow in Melbourne and Stokes/Broad in Sydney) he got collared.
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Steyn
Harris
Mortal
Philanderer
Ajmal
All rounder will have to be Watto. Goes for bugger all runs and would make a nice 6/7
As for a lack of spinners.. I'd say it's a mixture of too much one day/t20 slap and tickle.. So defensive darts become better/safer and pitches being done more for batsmen and $$ than true sporting wickets
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True supporting wickets - do they exist?
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True supporting wickets - do they exist?
Sometimes you see them, games are usually over n 3/4 days and no one scores more than about 250/300 runs in an innings
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I would have to put SA above Australia for they have been consistently good for a long time.
Australia have had one good series and showing what they are capable of without the Mickey Arthur chop-and-change Tinkerman style rotation policy he seemed to have.
Neither have a great spinner.
Think if this Aussie attavk can stay fit and together, they have a chance to be rated as good as the SA.
The SA are certainly weaker without Kallis, so going forward, will be an interesting series coming up.
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The Aussie attack has finally shown some discipline in the home series but SA have been a very disciplined unit for quite a long time now. This series will really test what they are made of as I doubt the Aussie batsmen will put huge scores up. If Lyon and Watto manage to do something they could end up on top though.
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Aus and SA
both pace attacks are really strong but they lack a really good spinner - Aus just ahead because of depth
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Lyon is improving as a spinner but that's not to say he will be the next Swan. At least he is giving the ball some flight and a chance to spin which most of our other spinners are not. He Simms to be developing the arm ball which seemed to be Swans greatest threat to the left hander.
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5 man bowling attack for me would be- Steyn, Harris, Philander, Ajmal and al Hasan/Stokes.
First lets dig into opening bowlers. Johnson would be a good choice on form, but ive seen him dwindle after a good series in the past, therefore steyn and harris get the gig
First Change is philander, nothing to say here, philander is the best bowler in the world
Spinner is Ajmal, obvious choice once again
Allrounder is al Hasan or Stokes depending on pitch condition.thats right, NO WATSON. Im an aussie fan and have met watto once before. he's a top bloke, but he really has not done a thing to warrant selection over the past 3 and a half years either than the odd hundred. his batting avg is the same as al Hasan and Stokes, but al Hasan and Stokes take 3-4 wickets a match leaving watto in the dust. the watto of 2009 would easily make this lineup, but the watto of every year after 2009 is just mediocre. id be more inclined to choose al Hasan over Stokes due to experience, but on a green top, two spinners are useless, therefore Stokes would come in then.
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5 man bowling attack for me would be- Steyn, Harris, Philander, Ajmal and al Hasan/Stokes.
First lets dig into opening bowlers. Johnson would be a good choice on form, but ive seen him dwindle after a good series in the past, therefore steyn and harris get the gig
First Change is philander, nothing to say here, philander is the best bowler in the world
Spinner is Ajmal, obvious choice once again
Allrounder is al Hasan or Stokes depending on pitch condition.thats right, NO WATSON. Im an aussie fan and have met watto once before. he's a top bloke, but he really has not done a thing to warrant selection over the past 3 and a half years either than the odd hundred. his batting avg is the same as al Hasan and Stokes, but al Hasan and Stokes take 3-4 wickets a match leaving watto in the dust. the watto of 2009 would easily make this lineup, but the watto of every year after 2009 is just mediocre. id be more inclined to choose al Hasan over Stokes due to experience, but on a green top, two spinners are useless, therefore Stokes would come in then.
You make a good point on Watto, but does Australia have any options waiting in the wings? I was impressed with Stokes this summer.
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I'd have Corey J Anderson, NZ, as the all rounder.
Game changer with the bat. And brisk left arm swing bowler.
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You make a good point on Watto, but does Australia have any options waiting in the wings? I was impressed with Stokes this summer.
Mitch Marsh has potential, but has been in indifferent form in the shield (at least thats what i saw in the couple of matches i went to and crcinfo). Faulkner is probably the front runner, but i dont think he has the bowling ability in tests, and i havent seen him bat enough in tests to come to a decisive conclusion. My favourite to take his spot is Starc, he has a natural ability with the bat, and is severely underrated as a batsman. His bowling is inconsistent at times, but with a 5 man genuine attack, he can be backed up if he fails and when he is on song, he can take 5 wickets in a single spell. However, if Starc or Faulkner were to join, my guess is they'd push Haddin up to 6, but that can imbalance the team and see a drop in Haddins form which is why Marsh is the best choice for the team, even though i'd prefer Starc were to come in.