Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => World Cricket => England => Topic started by: smilley792 on January 07, 2014, 05:17:21 PM
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According to the guardian.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/07/andy-flower-england-team-director-kevin-pietersen (http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/07/andy-flower-england-team-director-kevin-pietersen)
Flower will only stay on if pietersen goes?
Pietersen has pledged his future and want to win the ashes back, so will be available of selected and wanted by the rest of the England set up?
Who would you prefer? Flower or pietersen?
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There isn't a button for neither so I won't vote ;)
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#teamKP for me.
What I would say about this article is that Selvey is supposed to be on a plane and the writing style isn't that similar to his, more sensational that the usual Selvey style...
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There isn't a button for neither so I won't vote ;)
Edited for you.
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KP for me, all he needs is some decent man management surely.
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Kp anyday.
Players win matches not coach's.
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Flower for me. Easy decision. Look at ferguson at United. Got rid of plenty of big players and built new teams. This is what Flower now needs to do.
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Kp anyday.
Players win matches not coach's.
Ask Man U fans if that is the case.
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Ask Man U fans if that is the case.
Problem is any player of any nationality can be bought and play for any football team, so night quite the correct analogy.
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Why change coach then if they don't win matches ?
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If it has really come to this get rid of them both...
No player or coach is bigger than the team plain and simple.
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If Flower is such a good manager, how come he never started to put the problems of the summer that were plain for all to see right and how come they all look so miserable before the series even started?
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If it was plain for all to see why did everyone think England would win ?
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I thought we would lose the home series but batter them out there.
Good point Keiron
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Everyone to a man. All the experts all the pundits including The great Sir Ian botham predicted England to win. Botham predicted 5 nil to England so he got it wrong in a massive way, so to blame flower for not seeing it coming is harsh.
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flower hasn't improved the team over the last 18 months. the cricket has become grim, flower should have foreseen this.
I don't want flower to resign personally, but to say it is him or kp is pathetic.
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I agree if he has said it then that is strange. But if that is what he is thinking then he should just get rid of him. You can't have a player dictating. I'm reading fergi's book and he did it time and time again throughout his career.
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but SAF could just buy someone new.
Eng cricket won't ever again have a player like kp.
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Not in his early days he couldn't.
And even at United he got rid of senior players and replaced with home grown players.
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Ask Man U fans if that is the case.
I completely agree with this but interestingly Moyes has the best win record for a United manager in his first 30 games.
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Not in his early days he couldn't.
And even at United he got rid of senior players and replaced with home grown players.
You mean players he bought from other clubs look at the class of 92 how many where Home grown proper home grown not stole for pittance from other clubs...
He was a visionary and he had a staff who new what he was looking for but he never mentions his flops....
Back on topic If it has been said he should go because although KP is a bit septic it seems he still is our best player and for a coach to give a ultimatum it time to have a major reshuffle.
There has been a massive cancer of the team this winter something everything is possibly wrong...
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For me it would be pietersen. As long as he commits long term, and puts full effort in. Then you have to have someone of his talent in the side. I think it would be bar,y not too.
Personally I think flower needs to go there was signs in the summer series, of issues, which it seems not much were done about with our drubbing.
Plus add the yoyo ings off a very young batsmen, that's then dropped for not performing. I see it as bad player management.
If your gonna ask a youngster to step up, give him a chance. If your gonna be an inpatient sod, then he should have moved pietersen or bell up there. Or did he bottle forcing his stars to change?
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Whilst not trying to be-little SAF's achievements he had a very talented youth system ready to replace players in his early days. As mentioned above he also had a transfer budget. Flower has neither of these (yes we have some good youngsters but not good enough to go straight into a side and make them champions in their first season).
If this is true (I'm still skeptical) then for me you have to question flower. We need the best XI players we can get on the pitch. Team spirit and togetherness only ever seems to be an issue in losing sides, winners don't tend to care so much. Remember all the stuff written about the Aussies with Clarke and Watson and the split in the team, who's talking about that now. If flower is really motivated by personal vendetta's like this then white frankly he's not in the right frame of mind for the job.
KP is still one of our best players, like it or not it's true. That won't change no matter how many journos or ex players jump on the bandwagon of hating KP (Phil Tuffnel questioning people for being great players - do me a favour and get back to the jungle mate).
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Well...they have both committed to move england forward in the last 24hrs...
But this a very un mike selvey like article which makes me think there is something in it
There is a view thats its upto the management to mange players despite some difficulty with awkward individuals
Nasser did this with gough caddick and thorpe
All perceived to be 'difficult'
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There are plenty of intense southern Africans with a driven intensity and penchant for the same incredibly conservative approach to cricket.
There is only one KP.
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If it was plain for all to see why did everyone think England would win ?
Because Australia really arent that good even though we manage to make them look like world beaters. Many assumed that the management would manage the problems of the summer. It was obvious there were problems in the england performances during last summer and that the victories glossed over them and that we could easily have lost that summer series.
There were plenty of people saying they thought the momentum was with australia going into the winter tour and we were going to find it tough. Our performances got worse and worse every game.
I wouldnt be rushing to get rid of Flower, but based on the premise it was one or the other had to go he would be the one I would chose rather than our most talented batsman
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Looks like this story was fib. Flower has denied it.
English print media at it again
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From a neutral perspective it would have to be Flower that goes. KP is a good bat but here is my thought process, players fail and not coaches but looking at the team selection for Ashes and the freedom you feel Cook has (not that he comes across as a great captain but he might prove us all wrong) it looks like it has become too much of Flower's team rather than England or Cook's team, Cook seems to struggle etc etc. also if this is all KP's fault well how much time does he really have left?.....as a coach/director of cricket Flower's job is to manage players and get the best out of them.
P.s. I am on the rum so it might not make sense...now off to make some purchases :D
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There isn't a button for neither so I won't vote ;)
Same for me, not that you're looking for Aussie input....
It's true that England's cricket hasn't grown and was not sufficient to hold them at the top for very long, and that long term planning is the domain of the coach (among others) but, the performances just witnessed are soley the players fault. Same for gooch who everyone wants to sack as well, did he instruct batsmen to play dumb shots? (According to boycott, half of the 100 dismissals were gifted to Australia)
Sack KP? Are you blokes serious? There's very few batters in the world like KP, genuine game changer, does need to perhaps show bowlers a bit more respect early in his innings, but sack him? You're nuts....
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I'm on the neither side too. I think it would be a mistake to get rid of either. We've seen what happens when KP doesn't participate, and as little as some may like it, he was still the highest run scorer in this Ashes series with his 294 runs...
I also don't see a replacement for Flower. As others have said, one poor series shouldn't result in wholesale changes. We should wait and see what happens versus India and Sri Lanka this year.
If we are still seeing problems, then let's take a closer look at all aspects, but until then, I don't think doing without either is a good idea.
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Throughout history, the men in suits of the ECB/TCCB/MCC/whatever else they've been called haven't really liked Maverick players like KP/Botham/Flintoff. They've been tolerated because they're good, but they've used whatever minor slip up they make as a rod to beat them with. It's a wonder players like that don't turn round and tell them where to shove it at times... For me, you need the maverick players but you also need the team men to help support them and the coach needs to get the best out of everyone.
Flower isn't getting the best out of everyone anymore, so for me, he goes
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there is a great quote from Duncan Fletcher that you need a composite of team men and mavericks with 8-3 being the optimum split.
At the moment this is part of the problem with the Eng team - without Swann the team is 10-1 (KP being the odd one out) I suspect in time that Stokes will become a bit of a maverick - but for a team to have flair and personality you need more characters. The reason the Eng team isn't really loved is because they are a team of robots, plus KP. Flower and Strauss/Cook have cultivated this with the ECB.
It is worth noting that Flowers doesn't have a great record with bringing in new players successfully into the End team...
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For me Flower has to go.
The majority of the feedback I get and hear from within the game is that Kevin has nothing but time for Junior players. Always encouraging and taking time out to help them. Sometimes adults don't get on and I feel that for whatever reason Flower doesn't get on with Kevin.
My point is that whatever personal reasons you have for disliking someone it shouldn't stop the team from trying to achieve No 1 status. Wether or not Kevin batted sensibly in his innings is not important to me in this situation as the same could be pointed at Bell, Cook, Root, Prior and Bairstow.
What I think is important is the way a coach spots his own teams weakness and that of the opposition. I firmly believe that flower has got this immensely WRONG on this trip. I find it hard to support someone who lays the blame at the door of one person (as we are being told by the press) when he should be looking at himself and his coaching staff as to why they got so many things wrong over the last 12 months (i include the home series with south Africa where the bowling to certain top order batsmen was so completely wrong).
Finally, there are many top coaches out there to replace Flowers but NO batsman to replace Kevin
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I see Vaughan has put his 2pence in on the subject.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25649105 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25649105)
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Problem is any player of any nationality can be bought and play for any football team, so night quite the correct analogy.
erm, this is the "England" cricket team... :)
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erm, this is the "England" cricket team... :)
Ok you got me there, in my line of business and being self employed there have been times when i have had maverick staff that i have had to man manage. Did i get on with them not always, but i could see they where an asset to my business which was first and foremost (to me) the key thing. So for me both should stay and just get on with it.
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pietersen named in the provisional 30man squad. all though this will be halved after the Australia tour finishes.
have the board and selector gone with Pieterson? or both flower and Pieterson staying?
or name him in the provisional squad and drop him later. keeps him quiet for now.
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I would go with Pietersen, one of the best batsman, and flower is just useless ruining a few people career, he really should go
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I would go with Pietersen, one of the best batsman, and flower is just useless ruining a few people career, he really should go
Really? I'm sure people with far more experience think a little differently. There's only so much that can be done with 11 out of form players. Flower has been amazing for English cricket. Whether it's time to let someone else have a good a different matter entirely, but useless definitely not!
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Maybe it's a case that this is always a finite job, and like Fletcher - who was excellent in the beginning - maybe he has taken things as far as his coaching and man-management skills will take him.
It's a pretty intense job, and with new players coming in, perhaps he's lost that level of communiation and ability to make players run through walls for him.
Plenty of respected coaches have had a shelf-life at test level as the whole scene is so full-on now.
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I'm of the opinion its not about wholesale changes; England need to play more positive cricket. They appear to have a good blend of accumulators (Cook, Root, Ballance) and strokeplayers (Bell, KP, Prior, Stokes). It's all about a state of mind and showing intent, as England did in 2005; we'll score runs at a rate and have top quality bowlers who will take wickets at pace. Lose the 'attritional' cricket and start taking the game to teams. Smashing a young Indian team in the summer would go a way to redressing the Ashes embarrassment...
For me, even considering leaving out KP is ridiculous. You simply have to find a way of involving him. Having him on the periphery during the Ashes was crazy. Play to his ego, treat him like a star and he'll win games. I believe Flower should be retained, if only for the lack of options, but he needs to introduce a new mentality and strategy and needs to find a way of working with KP and fast.
If I had to get rid of 1, it would be Flower. He can't win games from the balcony.
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Is there a blame culture within the team not helping things either?
I don't know if this is the case, and I haven't read anything into it but I could imagine.
The bowlers blame the batsman for not getting enough runs
The batsman blame other batsman for not building a start/throwing their wicket away etc
Players might blame the lack of preparation against decent opposition before the tour
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Guys think of all the teams you all played in. Did everyone get on? No we would be mad to think they did. What happened in most of the successful teams you played in? Not a difficult one to answer is it you had a Captain who could get the best out of players in the team and manage the different egos and cliques in the team. Alastair Cook is going to set records for accumulation of test runs for an Englishman that probably will never be beaten is he a Captain in my opinion no, look at every interview he did the same old rubbish every time trying to take positives out of getting absolutely hammered kept saying they hadn't reached their targets it didn't take a great sage to come to that conclusion did it we could all see that from the bloody scores and the smiles on the Aussie faces. Fair play to the Aussies but for goodness sake even they deep down would have expected more competition than we provided them. Cook not a skipper and never will be as a skipper he will be forever scarred by this series. For his own good let him go as skipper.