Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Players => Topic started by: Bruiserboy on January 15, 2014, 09:07:06 AM
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Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but what has happened to Steven Finn people? I dont know what you thought but I was very hopeful that after a dip in form in the summer he may come roaring back in Aus with faster bouncier pitches available maybe suiting him more. Now he has gone through the entire tour without playing a match and there are rumours he has the yips.
Is this just part of him learning and developing his game at this level or is it down to the coaching staff and management around him? Are his problems because he hasnt been given an opportunity and this has knocked his confidence or was he too much of a liability to even be given a run?
It seemed to me just looking on from afar that the wheels started to come off when the england coaching staff started to try to modify his action maybe to correct the issue of knocking the stumps in the delivery stride but possibly to attempt to turn him into a bowler that he isnt.
Feels a tad like the Jimmy Anderson experience all over again.
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Who knows. Just strikes me that the coaching staff and management are responsible for basically destroying a player and turning him into a water bottle carrier. Complete waste of time him being on the tour. Should have just made him play Sheffield shild or grade cricket if his form is that bad and just had him bowling proper overs not net overs.
Another example of this ECB and England management and coaching group failing
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I think the ECB need to look at how they are managing these young players. If Finn was so out of of form or had technical issues why would they take him on the tour? I cant believe they only found this out when they got to Aus. I dont see the benefit of dragging a young player whos struggling around Australia to carry drinks. They did a similar thing with Bairstow and it damages their confidence.
Thats said i think Finn has a lot of work to do to correct said technical issues. He's gonna need a decent break from cricket and get back to basics
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Who knows. Just strikes me that the coaching staff and management are responsible for basically destroying a player and turning him into a water bottle carrier. Complete waste of time him being on the tour. Should have just made him play Sheffield shild or grade cricket if his form is that bad and just had him bowling proper overs not net overs.
Another example of this ECB and England management and coaching group failing
Hmm, I am trying to resist blaming the management and coaching staff but with Trott going, then Swann retiring, the catastrophic form of the squad and now this Finn thing (which has been going on for some time), the evidence doesnt look good looking in from well outside.
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I think the ECB need to look at how they are managing these young players. If Finn was so out of of form or had technical issues why would they take him on the tour? I cant believe they only found this out when they got to Aus. I dont see the benefit of dragging a young player whos struggling around Australia to carry drinks. They did a similar thing with Bairstow and it damages their confidence.
Thats said i think Finn has a lot of work to do to correct said technical issues. He's gonna need a decent break from cricket and get back to basics
At some point the younger players have to go on there and see if they have what it takes at this level and its bound to take a some time to learn but I agree, dont think they handled Root well either promoting him too early when he had made a decent start down the order and like i say above, seemed to me this decline with finn started last winter.
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Central contracts.
All of England's best prospects have been doing for years is carrying around water bottles. Look at the Aussies in this series, in between tests a lot of them were going back and playing in the Big Bash and I think a couple of them even played a Shield Game. You get better by playing games and for the likes of Bairstow, Finn, Ballance and whoever else, only netting for 3 years all over the world doesn't help their game as much as playing First Class games for county or overseas would.
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Central contracts.
All of England's best prospects have been doing for years is carrying around water bottles. Look at the Aussies in this series, in between tests a lot of them were going back and playing in the Big Bash and I think a couple of them even played a Shield Game. You get better by playing games and for the likes of Bairstow, Finn, Ballance and whoever else, only netting for 3 years all over the world doesn't help their game as much as playing First Class games for county or overseas would.
Totally agree I am unsure that central contracts have been all good news especially for the younger players. Does it also make them too comfortable in their positions for the year once they get the contract (not that I think that is the issue with the younger players and Finn in particular).
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As I wrote elsewhere, Yorkshire fans have griped about this as it happened to Dawson, Rashid, Wainwright, Silverwood and Bairstow, and the likes of Greame Onions and Monty Panesar have long been tagged along with little intention of them ever actually playing.
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As I wrote elsewhere, Yorkshire fans have griped about this as it happened to Dawson, Rashid, Wainwright, Silverwood and Bairstow, and the likes of Greame Onions and Monty Panesar have long been tagged along with little intention of them ever actually playing.
I never understood why Onions didnt get a good go last summer in english conditions given his form.
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face didn't fit I suspect.
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I suspect that the new no ball rule, bought in just for Finn has meant a serious need to remodel his action. And in doing so, I would think he's all over the place. THe management would have thought that it would be possible during the tour, after all Saker is a good bowling coach. I guess it just hasn't worked out!
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I suspect that the new no ball rule, bought in just for Finn has meant a serious need to remodel his action. And in doing so, I would think he's all over the place. THe management would have thought that it would be possible during the tour, after all Saker is a good bowling coach. I guess it just hasn't worked out!
Yes that seemed to be the start of his decline, although the issue seemed to worsen I thought and become more frequent. Okay more of an issue with one dayers but was it maybe better to just to stick with his action then and accept the no balls surely?
Seemd to me they also tried to make him much quicker at the same time.
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I think they tried too hard to remodel his action - which is never a good idea unless there is a clear injury related issue that mitigtaes in favour, as there would have been had England realised at an early stage how good a bowler Flintoff would become and changed his landing position as a result. They would have been far better moving him across the crease by eight inches or so so that the collapsing knee would be less of a problem, but otherwise just letting the poor lad bowl.
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I think they tried too hard to remodel his action - which is never a good idea unless there is a clear injury related issue that mitigtaes in favour, as there would have been had England realised at an early stage how good a bowler Flintoff would become and changed his landing position as a result. They would have been far better moving him across the crease by eight inches or so so that the collapsing knee would be less of a problem, but otherwise just letting the poor lad bowl.
Maybe they thought moving him across the crease that would reduce some of his potency because he bowled so straight wicket to wicket but you cant have everything.
Certainly he did find some extra pace from somewhere but he seemed to lose his brain the same time!
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the thing that i didnt understand is if his action was ok and not causing injury why the big remodel? yes he had an issue with kneeing the stumps but surely a slight adjustment in his angle of approach or where he lands should have been more than enough. he would potentially need to readjust his lines to suit the new angle/ landing spot but that should be pretty easy for a bowler of his class. he would have to do it during a match if the batsman was playing certain shots or field placings were forcing a certain line. It seems that too much of an issue has been made about it. its made him too concious of doing it again, so rather than concentrating on lines/lengths, he is too worried about kicking the stumps and has fallen apart. its a real shame as during his short career he has looked very good. I cant remember who it was against but in the one dayers bowling at 90+ mph and making batsman struggle.
Really hope he gets the confidence back.
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I suspect that the new no ball rule, bought in just for Finn has meant a serious need to remodel his action. And in doing so, I would think he's all over the place. THe management would have thought that it would be possible during the tour, after all Saker is a good bowling coach. I guess it just hasn't worked out!
I agree with this, didn't seem to be any problem until this became an issue and the no-ball rule was introduced, and it started to cost the side wickets. But at the same time I'm not entirely sure how its so difficult for him to move a couple of inches across the crease away from the stumps, surely that cant have a major effect on the way he bowls. Have the management just over-complicated the whole issue and now his confidence is completely shot
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In Dubai for the ODI's against Pakistan he looked unplayable at times with his pace and accuracy
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I am still left wondering who or what is responsible for such a rapid decline from a very very promising beginning. Is it just he cant take the pressure or is it the work on his action or was it the lack of bowling in the middle, the lack of being picked, too much technical input, poor coaching, poor man management?
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Kneeing the stumps. It wasn't like he did it every ball. Accept the no balls and move on.
Also, I don't understand how he can't merely move across the crease, I'm no professional bowler, infact there's probably a lot wrong with my bowling. But I'm able to move around the crease without much issue to change the angle to the batsmen,
So are England saying a world calls cricketer can't merely bowl from 4niches to the left?
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Finn hasn't been on decent form for a long time now.
This needs addressing and nobody is to blame! If someone loses form then it's one of those things - happens to ALL players, whoever you are!
The solution is to coach and address the form, and try to get the form back.
The biggest issue for me is that Finn hasn't been on the best form for a long time! Therefore, why was he taken on tour?
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Finn hasn't been on decent form for a long time now.
This needs addressing and nobody is to blame! If someone loses form then it's one of those things - happens to ALL players, whoever you are!
The solution is to coach and address the form, and try to get the form back.
The biggest issue for me is that Finn hasn't been on the best form for a long time! Therefore, why was he taken on tour?
Interesting view. I agree he has been on the decline for a while but I am not sure its always as simple as that. This sounds like a bit more than just a loss of a bit of form and a slight dip in performance levels. Could be said Jimmy Anderson is going through that right now (I know the Aussie conditions/ball dont suit him but he was off form at home last summer and thats continued), sounds like Finn's whole action has gone to pot.
This is surely where all those England managers, coaches and support staff are supposed to kick in like you say. The very fact it has gone on for so long and has continued and ended in this outcome is a great shame and has made me ask the question.
Actually now you ask, why was Tremlett taken on tour on the basis of form???
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Trem was taken due to what he did in the previous Ashes over in Aus!
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i have a mate involved in the england setup.. and aparantly some days he couldnt even pitch it on the cut stuff..
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Tremlett was signed for sixes in the big bash,
Bowled 1 over and took over
Now dropped. Lol
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I suspect with Finn, that his form has led to less confidence. And when you have a drop in confidence I believe you try little changes to try to get back on form?
This may have led to a few technical problems!
But whatever the reasons, my point is that he should have been taken under someones wing a while ago, and his technique analysed and if need be, go back to basics to get his bowling back on track.
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Or as Bumble said "Who cares if he bowls a no ball by knocking the bails off occasionally just let him bowl"
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Trem was taken due to what he did in the previous Ashes over in Aus!
That doesn't warrant his selection, he hasn't played nearly enough cricket and hadn't showed any signs of decent form
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I suspect with Finn, that his form has led to less confidence. And when you have a drop in confidence I believe you try little changes to try to get back on form?
This may have led to a few technical problems!
But whatever the reasons, my point is that he should have been taken under someones wing a while ago, and his technique analysed and if need be, go back to basics to get his bowling back on track.
Absolutely agree with this, which made me instinctively feel like pointing my finger at the vast england management and support set up given his inexperience, especially given all the other woes on the tour, but was reluctant to do that.
Come to think of it, looking at Cook batting right now its hard to believe that he could suffer such a loss of form even with all the woes of being england captain so maybe it is just a personal confidence thing.
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firstly since the time he keeps on getting wickets and knocking over the bowlers end bails off his confidence drops but he still play well in the ODI and t20 back in England vs aussie, out of him trem and rankin, he is the quickest and much more experience, tremlett only play because he perform well last year, but he hasn't been performing, rankin has been ruined by the England coaches too, not playing finn in the ashes because he have lost his 'confidence' is bullsh*t, he is the best bowler in the third test, and now they are not playing him in ODI when he is by far the best bowler after broad, it is definitely the England coaching staff fault for not letting him bowl... England selectors have done badly on selection with Compton, kieswetter, onions, finn etc... they need to sort this out pretty soon or they will be dropping down the world ranking sooner than later
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That doesn't warrant his selection, he hasn't played nearly enough cricket and hadn't showed any signs of decent form
I know it doesn't warrant his selection! We know that they should be choosing more on form rather than what someone did a year or two before! But alas, the selection boys don't seem to know that!
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firstly since the time he keeps on getting wickets and knocking over the bowlers end bails off his confidence drops but he still play well in the ODI and t20 back in England vs aussie, out of him trem and rankin, he is the quickest and much more experience, tremlett only play because he perform well last year, but he hasn't been performing, rankin has been ruined by the England coaches too, not playing finn in the ashes because he have lost his 'confidence' is bullsh*t, he is the best bowler in the third test, and now they are not playing him in ODI when he is by far the best bowler after broad, it is definitely the England coaching staff fault for not letting him bowl... England selectors have done badly on selection with Compton, kieswetter, onions, finn etc... they need to sort this out pretty soon or they will be dropping down the world ranking sooner than later
I don't fully agree with you! Finn hasn't seen great form for a long while, and the powers that be should have ensured that he was ready! And I do honestly believe that his lack of form has led to his being low on confidence!! There is surely no question that he is low on confidence - and all the pundits seem to agree.
However, fully agree that the selectors need to get real and........
1. Choose on form rather!
2. Ensure that the squad they have chosen are mentally ready for the task
3. Ensure that the squad have played as much cricket as is healthy
I also agree that unless we sort this out, we will be down to 5 or 6 in the ranings very soon!!
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Too many cooks(not the captain)...
He should've been left to just bowl in the first place, he's only a young man and these flaws could've been ironed out instead of a complete re-remaster of his action/run up. At the end of the day he got in to the test squad originally, so why change it?
He seems like the sort of bowler that needs to bowl as well, so when he's just given the odd game no wonder that he doesn't perform as well as he can do. When this test series was over, I'm still annoyed/cannot believe that Finn did not get a chance to have a bowl...
There's no doubt in my mind that he's the most talented out of the trio of tall fast bowlers(himself, Tremlett & Rankin) that we took on the tour(which Rankin hardly played for Warwickshire last year and Tremlett is too injury prone, it was a bit of a disgrace that these guys even got on the tour) and I hope that he comes back stronger than before.
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I suspect that the new no ball rule, bought in just for Finn has meant a serious need to remodel his action. And in doing so, I would think he's all over the place. THe management would have thought that it would be possible during the tour, after all Saker is a good bowling coach. I guess it just hasn't worked out!
Is Saker such a great bowling coach, what was his track record before joining England, I dont know? It hasnt look like it from the form of the last tour and the summer but then the bowlers maybe just arent capable or able to carry out what he is asking of them at present for whatever reasons.
Certainly the Finn thing doesnt reflect great on him.
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All those out of form bowlers they took on tour, they don't care about form or they would have taken onions. Why didn't they take him because he was in form laughable really if it wasn't so serious.
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Why did we have a bowling problem on tour? Because we decided on this theory of Tall bouncy bowlers and the three that fit that mould closest to the England set up (read mates with selectors/coaches/etc) were Rankin, Tremlett and Finn.
If form were really what had picked the Ashes squad, Onions would absolutely have been in there, but he didn't fit the theory being applied, at only 6'2" and only 88mph...
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He was also in form and taking wickets. A travesty that he was so brazenly overlooked shame on the selectors and England management.
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My thoughts are it's time England got Ian Pont in.
Saker has done ok, just time for a change and Pont is a real quality coach
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Why did we have a bowling problem on tour? Because we decided on this theory of Tall bouncy bowlers and the three that fit that mould closest to the England set up (read mates with selectors/coaches/etc) were Rankin, Tremlett and Finn.
If form were really what had picked the Ashes squad, Onions would absolutely have been in there, but he didn't fit the theory being applied, at only 6'2" and only 88mph...
I dont see that theory as particularly flawed. I personally suspect Onions may have struggled like Anderson did because of the lack of seem/swing and the kookaburra ball in Aus. Without seem movement, I think Onions may have been a bit straight up and down.
Its just none of those 3 got much of a chance but didnt really perform and really Finn got no chance. I think I would have taken Onions simply because he deserved it on form though and 2 of those 3 taller bowlers. Same question could be raised re Bresnan who hadnt bowled.
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Onions couldn't have done any worse than tremlett Rankin and Finn. Reports say Finn couldn't even get it on the mat.
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Swann hasnt been as good post that elbow problem either has he. So we had him, Tremlett, Finn, Rankin and Bresnan all in questionable form and our best bowler Anderson's main weapons negated by the conditions.
Still cant really understand how Finn can have got into such a state with all the support team around him. I reckon its lack of time in the middle.
Some bowling for his county on those juiced up early season pitches away from the england hierarchy should get him back on track
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as ive posted before on here, Finn has major problems, all can be sorted out i'm sure but right now he has more than one issue which need specialist help
why has'nt that specialist help been available from the England staff? very very good question
i'm afraid...and anyone who has read my(admittedly a bit boring) posts...will know i'm a massive England supporter and always back my team up....but we(england) have got a lot wrong on this tour and i'm very concerned the management of the team is going wrong and on the wrong path long term
Steve Finn needs one person to work with, Angus Fraser,to help him with his action and his head.Finn may be a professional but he's a young lad and gold dust as a fast bowler-he is so valuable to England it's vital he is now handled right.
90mph english bowlers dont come around very often,he needs to get to Middlesex and take all the time needed to get things right.
really....he is too valuable to us,as in English cricket...to continue on the path he is on now
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Swann hasnt been as good post that elbow problem either has he. So we had him, Tremlett, Finn, Rankin and Bresnan all in questionable form and our best bowler Anderson's main weapons negated by the conditions.
Still cant really understand how Finn can have got into such a state with all the support team around him. I reckon its lack of time in the middle.
Some bowling for his county on those juiced up early season pitches away from the england hierarchy should get him back on track
I think that sums it up. Of the eight bowlers we took with us, Broad, Anderson, Stokes, Rankin and Finn were fully fit. Tremlett, Bresnan and Swann were coming back off being crocked. Finn, Rankin and Anderson were suffering form issues. That leaves Stokes and Broad. Who were the top five bowlers in the Div 1 county wicket taking?
Onions 70 @ 18.46, Magoffin 63 @ 21.49, Murtagh 60 @ 20.4, Jordan 59 @ 26.73 and Rushworth 54 @ 22.26.
Magoffin is an aussie who never played for his country and bowls fast-medium.
Murtagh is English/Irish who bowls fast-medium swing and has never represented his country at senior level.
These two are both 34.
Rushworth has been discussed before and Jordan is a fast-medium bowler who has been described as genuinely quick, which suggests he might occasionally hit 90mph.
Would you pick the English qualified guys over Finn, Rankin and Tremlett?
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One horror Tour and the bubble has burst just like that...poof!!
This is literally tearing the opposition apart!
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My opinion is that England made a massive mistake by not playing on those bouncy Aus pitches, we saw from Johnson that pace was a great threat and big game changer. Now to send him home from the Odi series is a utter nonsense, they wanted him to a have break from playing cricket he didn't even play any cricket. He is England's second best bowler, should of played.
John Davidson.
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Scary, that's all I gotta say
Is there no English , genuine 90mph bowlers out there?
Is the current path to playing for England, so fuc&ed up, that the bowlers we need to compete at international level are either ignored,not given a chance, or just don't exist?
If we don't have a genuine 'quickie', , please tell me,what is the point of turning up?
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Related to this, I wonder if there will be any fall out from George Bailey's comment about taking pride in the fact 3 English players have left the tour. Personally I'm not sure it's appropriate with one of those three players having a stress related illness and other one fighting for his cricketing career. I'm all for an aggressive brand of cricket, but I fear this comment has over stepped the mark in terms of talking about a fellow professional.
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Related to this, I wonder if there will be any fall out from George Baily's comment about taking pride in the fact 3 English players have left the tour. Personally I'm not sure it's appropriate with one of those three players having a stress related illness and other one fighting for his cricketing career. I'm all for an aggressive brand of cricket, but I fear this comment has over stepped the mark in terms of talking about a fellow professional.
just about sums up Bailey really, I actually liked the look of him etc before this test series but he's shown himself to be an utter cretin. NOt quite as bad as Warner but he's not far behind. The game really doesn't need people like that in it, they'll put people off it. (they won't put die hards off but they'l put the wishy washy people off who, at the end of the day are the bigger section of the sky paying people).
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I think in a game of honesty and honour... A section of the Australian team have taken the 1980s Millwall FC approach of 'Nobody likes us, and we don't care'. A path which Michael Vaughan appears to be taking also... A definite lack of class.
I am half English (Mum) and half Australian (Dad) and even I am annoyed with the comments coming out of Australia right now. They smashed England in the ashes fair and square - enjoy it. However, Lehmann needs to consider what this team will be remembered for - Their skill, or their poor ability to deal with the media?
Lehmann just needs to look in comparison. Root got clocked by Warner. Root responded by saying he wanted to forget about it and get on with the series. He didn't take to the media and say he is glad Warner went home. If 'Pundits' want to make comments, let them. It is what they get paid for. Players are there to play and keep their mouths shut.
(TBH, Warner was back by the 3rd test anyway! I blame the ICC for being spineless and not banning him for a lot longer! How is punching someone any different to what Suarez did to Ivanovic? Just because it happened off the pitch?!).
I think it is awkward for the Chris Rogers of this world with players like Warner and Bailey making comments. Rogers had a great series and is, for the few times I have met him, a really top bloke BUT it must be awkward when your international teammates are making comments about your clubmates (Middlesex).
Anybody looking forward to seeing Bailey 'attempt' to send Steyn, Morkel and Philander home? Get your lid out lad, it's gonna be a long tour!
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Rogers shows what people should be like. Dam sure he plays just as 'hard' as anyone but without the 'banter/sledging/mind games'. Hence, he's respected by everyone.
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Anybody looking forward to seeing Bailey 'attempt' to send Steyn, Morkel and Philander home? Get your lid out lad, it's gonna be a long tour!
I think its kind of a shame that he is not a bit more talented - if he were, we might get to see them really work him over rather than put him to a quick death!
Point is, sledging is basically acceptable to me - I don't see what the fuss is about - save in two instances. One is prats like Glenn McGrath who can give it out but sook when the batsman responds in kind, and the other is talentless little p****s like Bailey who do nothing but hide behind their more worthwhile mates then try and stick the boot in.
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I think its kind of a shame that he is not a bit more talented - if he were, we might get to see them really work him over rather than put him to a quick death!
Point is, sledging is basically acceptable to me - I don't see what the fuss is about - save in two instances. One is prats like Glenn McGrath who can give it out but sook when the batsman responds in kind, and the other is talentless little p****s like Bailey who do nothing but hide behind their more worthwhile mates then try and stick the boot in.
Are you referring to McGrath's incident with Sarwan?