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General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: Twelfth Man on February 24, 2014, 10:07:06 AM
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It seems to have been spoken about a lot since the horrible winter we endured in Australia, but what would your Test side be for the summers two series? There are a few names floating about, but what is the right team with a good balance?
With no Trott (presuming he continues his absence), Pietersen or Swann there could be a very different looking side to the one that finished up the 2013 English summer.
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Please can I ask people before they post their teams to think about the balance of the team - this is what I posted elsewhere...
To win test matches consistently you need batsmen who can take the game to the opposition.
If you look at the best teams - Bradman's invincibles, Windies in the 80's, Aussies through the late 90s-2000's Vaughan's England team - the Indian team that made it to number one, before they crashed and the Saffers - they all have someone in the top 3 who can take a team apart - even the current aussies have Warner.
We need to have a much better balance of stroke players and blockers - otherwise we let the opposition bowl at us which puts the middle order under too much pressure.
So Cook needs an opening partner who hits boundaries - trescothic style otherwise we will never put the opposition under pressure.
I want to see a batting line up that bowlers will loose sleep over bowling at...
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i will give my choice of team first:
Alastair Cook
Joe Root
Nick Compton
Ian Bell
Eoin Morgan
Ben Stokes
Craig Kieswetter (He should get a chance if Prior don't perform)
Stuart Broad
James Anderson
Steven Finn
Simon Kerrigan ( Another shot at test level)
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I totally agree Buzz. What would your side be?
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I think it will be
Cook
Root
Bell
Taylor
Morgan
Stokes
Prior
Bresnan
Broad
Kerrigan
Anderson
That's going on lions performance, plus England's ability to stick with people they know.
But it isn't what I'd want to see.
Cook
Lumb/hales/wright
Bell
Root
Morgan
Stokes
Buttler
Broad
Rashid
Anderson
mills
The openers lumb/hales/wright will need work for test level, but I be
I've England should pick one and turn him into our david Warner. He went from a t20 player to test opener, and scares attacks. Look at what he did to morkel yesterday!
If they choose wright, it's a bowling option to help the 4 bowlers and root.
I picked Rashid as I want us to play a leggy, and Borthwick has taken tap in Sri Lanka, plus Rashid can bat, and isn't bad to have come in at 8.
Mills is raw but pace is king IMO. Get him in and blood him. We do t have one, but we need a steyn/johnson and we need one fast!
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Cook
Root
Bell
Morgan
Ballance(for no other reason than he's the man in possession)
Stokes
Prior
Broad
Onions
Anderson
Kerrigan
I think sooo much is dependant on who gets the head coach role.
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I totally agree Buzz. What would your side be?
Well assuming that we can't pick Surrey Legend KP...
I would probably go for something like...
Cook
Carberry (with instruction to put bat to ball) failing that probably Hales - who may not be good enough, but he should be given a go
Bell
Root
Morgan
Stokes
Butler (or Prior)
Borthwick or Ali - I am not sure - the lack of decent spinners is odd.
Broad
Anderson
Finn (told to bowl quick.)
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Cook
Robson
Bell
Root
Ballance
Stokes
Buttler
Rafiq
Broad
Mills
Anderson
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Cook
Carbs
Robson
Bell
Ali
Taylor
Stokes
Prior
Broad
Finn
Anderson
Onions 12th
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Cook
Wright (England's answer to Warner)
Bell
Root
Morgan
Stokes
Prior
Borthwick
Broad
Anderson
Rankin
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Some piffle being talked here I fear; with respect to Buzz, you can only pick from what is available to you and I really don't think its worth picking a guy who doesn't even get into his county first class side as a matter of routine on the optimistic hope that he'll replace KP!
The keys will be making sure that we have enough experience in the batting whilst blooding new bowling options and that we don't misuse Stokes by trying to make him bolster the batting as part of a four man attack.
So, if I were the selector, I'd have:
Cook
Robson
Bell
Root
Morgan
Stokes
Prior
Rashid
Broad
Anderson
AN Other Seamer
The above is a tad harsh on James Taylor, who runs the risk of being the lad about whom we die wondering, and on Gary Ballance, who deserves another go eventually but who is not quite ready and who should be the one to make space for Morgan, who is important to me for his ability to influence tempo. Prior may be over the hill, but his experience will be critical as part of the progression of the team and he should at least be given a go - if he fails, a decision between Bairstow and Buttler will need to be made.
So to the extra seamer. Stokes provides some balance to the side and, whilst it would be valid to wonder whether Rashid would be vulerable to a bit of tap, Root could hold up an end in extremis. That being the case, what we need is a bowler with impact - and for me the options are to either take a left armer to change the angle, which would bring in the Topley/Gurney/Mills/Willey debate, or someone with wheels, in which case the wuickest I've seen in the last couple of seasons has been Liam Plunkett, who has got some serious gas.
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your top four are all basically blockers who will allow the bowling team to attack and gain confidence. Hales is a big call (which is why I went for Carberry!)
My view - just like Duncan fletcher likes 90+mph bowlers, is that you need a stroke player/hitter in the top 3 - On the flat international pitches guys who struggle on a trent bridge green top in April wont struggle so much.
Other than that, your team isn't all that different from mine!
Nice to see some Yorkshire bias in their too ;)
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That's going on lions performance, plus England's ability to stick with people they know.
But it isn't what I'd want to see.
Cook
Lumb/hales/wright
Bell
Root
Morgan
Stokes
Buttler
Broad
Rashid
Anderson
mills
The openers lumb/hales/wright will need work for test level, but I be
I've England should pick one and turn him into our david Warner. He went from a t20 player to test opener, and scares attacks. Look at what he did to morkel yesterday!
If they choose wright, it's a bowling option to help the 4 bowlers and root.
I picked Rashid as I want us to play a leggy, and Borthwick has taken tap in Sri Lanka, plus Rashid can bat, and isn't bad to have come in at 8.
Mills is raw but pace is king IMO. Get him in and blood him. We do t have one, but we need a steyn/johnson and we need one fast!
I think Hales is quite a way from the est team, Notts dropped him from 4 day stuff last year.
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I think Hales is quite a way from the est team, Notts dropped him from 4 day stuff last year.
And Victoria had dropped Chris Rodgers at the end off 2012 and were about to cancel his contract.
Yet since he's scored 4 test centuries.
Just because someone doesn't currently do well in fc, doesn't mean he won't succeed at test. Plus there's Nottinghamshire to take into account. They may force to much pressure on him "do not go aerial, block everything"
Where as, some England coaching, and being told "do a Warner, play your own game and take the attack to the bowling" may allow him to succeed.
Could fail miserable two, but as buzz notes, we need some fire in our line up, and can't see it coming from many other sources.
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ODI
Hales
Robson
Bell
Root
Morgan
Stokes
Buttler
Broad
Finn
Spinner (whoever is best)
Jordan
Test side
Cook
Compton
Bell
Root
Ballance
Robson
Prior
Stokes
Jordan
Broad
Finn
Root bowled perfectly well as a spin option, give. We have no one who is really pushing a place. Robson is in training at 6, root has to bat for a while at 4 and prove if he's a middle order guy or can take over in the top three in 2-3 years. I'd put bedwetter and buttler on standby and get them playing as many 4 day games as possible. Same with Ali, chopra, Taylor and co.
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And Victoria had dropped Chris Rodgers at the end off 2012 and were about to cancel his contract.
Yet since he's scored 4 test centuries.
Just because someone doesn't currently do well in fc, doesn't mean he won't succeed at test. Plus there's Nottinghamshire to take into account. They may force to much pressure on him "do not go aerial, block everything"
Where as, some England coaching, and being told "do a Warner, play your own game and take the attack to the bowling" may allow him to succeed.
Could fail miserable two, but as buzz notes, we need some fire in our line up, and can't see it coming from many other sources.
I don't think the judgements of a few selectors at county or national level should be taken as red.. Just think about football for instance.. Wenger (regarded as awesome at judging youth!) didn't pick yaya toure for instance.. Another club didn't get shaun wright Phillips as he was 'too small'. Etc etc.. Just think how many people are written off who tbh, could well be as good or better than the guys who make it. It's all a mixture of daddies money, knowing the right people, being an early bloomer rather than later and a dam big slice of luck!
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Hmmm, much of the side picks itself, however I'm afraid I'm caught between the chuck out some of the old, and keep a bit of experience in the batting lineup.
Cook
Robson
Carberry
Bell
Root
Prior
Stokes
Broad
Tredwell / Borthwick
Anderson
Onions
NOW - I know I'm going to get a pasting for Tredwell, and actually i don't want to pick him at all. However, I can't see Monty as the way forward, and i worry about Kerrigans mental strength at the highest level.
I would say Borthwick straightaway, and some of the reports I read were that he was getting in to a groove out in SL and beat the edge on numerous occasions. However, he went for a lot of runs per over, so is he the man?
Bugger it - he'll never learn unless he plays and bowls more! Borthers it is!
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My team (and I agree with Buzz's theory about batters) would be:
Cook
Hales/Lumb
Taylor
Bell
Morgan
Root
Prior
Stokes
Broad
Anderson/Onions
A spinner who can TURN the ball, not a dart merchant like Briggs/Kerrigan
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I don't get it though - Hales / Lumb / wright don't set the 4 day county scene alight with consistent hi-tempo scoring. why should they be in any way successful against the better quality test bowling out there?
I understand the need to get on with it (and i originally counted Carbs out) but perhaps he's worth a go with the pressure of the ahses out of the way. Otherwise, why not pressurise Bell to open (I think he's done it before)?
Also, I'm a massive Morgan fan, but how is he suddenly lined up as a test batsman?
Finally, in my opinion, Onions needs to be given a go in english conditions, but i worry about stokes being the 3rd seamer in a 3 man attack. Too much too soon when he has his batting to consider.
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Bell last opened in India in 2006 - it was around about Tresco's first symptoms of his stress-related illness.
He didn't cover himself with glory, he was certainly outshone by Cook in his debut series and Owais Shah was at 3, so a scratch batting order really.
Morgan is an interesting conundrum. I'm not sure his SR reflects a KP type player, though he may have been reined in by the notion of playing properly during his last stint of Test cricket. You just feel he has something - I hope it's more than a propensity for nicking to 2nd slip!
Onions, I feel, is a ship that sailed. I think someone like Topley should be given a chance given his niggardly left armerness and his ability to pick wickets that he has shown through all of the age groups. I think Vic will corroborate that Topley was one of very few Englishmen to stand out in the U-19 WC Down Under.
Cook
Root (provided he has a bit of a dip)
Trott
Bell
Morgan
Prior
Stokes
Borthwick
Broad
Topley
Anderson
Mayhaps?
I'd like to see Rafiq come through as an offspinner
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I don't get it though - Hales / Lumb / wright don't set the 4 day county scene alight with consistent hi-tempo scoring. why should they be in any way successful against the better quality test bowling out there?
This is the challenge - Ideally I would be championing an Ali Brown style player - however I am not sure there is one. I have gone for Hales because he has had some success in international 2020 cricket.
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Yup - it's tough to find another Tresco at the moment, who is an experienced opener, but who can 'bloomin well get orn with it!'
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The bloomin well get orn with it is important, but Tresco was a good defensive player too. His Test debut innings showed that - he was on 0 for almost an hour and just kept playing balls on their merits. That was Walsh and Ambrose though, not Pradeep and Lakmal...
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Just looking at the country averages from last year. Who is top with a decent amount of games played?
G I NO Runs HS Avg 100's 50's
Joyce (Sussex) 14 21 4 1118 204 65.76 2 6
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He's de-qualified himself again and is playing for Ireland. I wonder if he would have to qualify again as a starting point.
What are Chris Nash's numbers like? He evokes a little bit of Ali Brown.
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Test
Cook
Compton
Bell
Taylor
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Borthwick
Plunkett
Broad
Anderson
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He's de-qualified himself again and is playing for Ireland. I wonder if he would have to qualify again as a starting point.
What are Chris Nash's numbers like? He evokes a little bit of Ali Brown.
Chris Nash Runs 1211 Average 46.57 Strike Rate 60.51 Inns 30
Luke Wright Runs 676 Average 56.33 Strike Rate 70.85 Inns 12
Mark Stoneman Runs 1068 Average 34.45 Strike Rate 69.84 Inns 32
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My team (and I agree with Buzz's theory about batters) would be:
Cook
Hales/Lumb
Taylor
Bell
Morgan
Root
Prior
Stokes
Broad
Anderson/Onions
A spinner who can TURN the ball, not a dart merchant like Briggs/Kerrigan
Kerrigan is not a dart type of bowler some worry he is too slow mate…
Parry is the dart left arm bowler at Lancashire mate.
I like the idea of Ali as a all rounder and maybe Root as 2nd spinner a tad bit like South Africa in the fact we don't have a really good spinner use what we can types.
The Luke Wright idea is not as bad as it seems i don't think and i would bring in Morgan and Buttler in if Prior is in no form .
Cook
Wright
Trott
Morgan
Root
Ali
Stokes
Prior (Buttler)
Broad
Finn
Anderson
Bit out there but can't be any worst than what has gone before.
Decent Batting side that could move Root and Wright or remove Wright all together
Bowling well you have the 4 pace attack with back up from Ali and Root with if he bowls anymore a bit of Wright.
Taylor and Root i can not see working i see it as a kind of school boy side bait like when Bell was the sherminator to Warne but both or either could play.
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2013 first class stats
MJ Lumb 16 26 3 1120 221* 48.69 2213 50.61 4 3 4 142 5
Over a 1000 runs at an average of 48 ain't bad.
Luke wrights fc stats for 2013 weren't bad either.
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Sometimes we need to look at other things I kind of see where buzz is coming from we have got in a rut
All I know is India and Sri Lanka bowling attacks should allow somebody to bed in that that is not a slight on there teams either.
Time for a change a bit of intent is required .
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your top four are all basically blockers who will allow the bowling team to attack and gain confidence. Hales is a big call (which is why I went for Carberry!)
Are they really? Robson, when I have seen him bat, has seemed to be capable of playing his shots in a sensible, measured fashion and has scored at a decent pace. As for Bell and Root, they have both shown the ability at times to play more aggressively than they showed in the most recent Ashes series - indeed, Bell dictated the pace beautifully when Australia were here last year. So, rather than picking someone utterly random - and that is what the guys you've referenced are - why not go with the guys you think are technically the best and work with them ion their batting mindset? Bear in mind here that your supposedly more aggressive player, Carberry, scored at the same rate as all of my alleged blockers Down Under, but without the ability to go on to play a significant innings...
My view - just like Duncan fletcher likes 90+mph bowlers, is that you need a stroke player/hitter in the top 3 - On the flat international pitches guys who struggle on a trent bridge green top in April wont struggle so much.
Stroke player is good, hitter less important - I mean, yeah, KP is/was great but he was not there because he was a hitter but because he was a great batsman. Now if you were arguing that the selectors should look at the up and coming players and look for someone succeeding in the first division of the Championship who could play that type of game I would give it more house room - but there are not many obvious candidates really. Ballance, perhaps, though as I have said elsewhere he may be a year away yet. Bairstow? Tried and, albeit with some poor management, needs to regroup. So who is there, short of keeping the same side but batting Morgan or Prior at four?
Nice to see some Yorkshire bias in their too ;)
No bias. I believe Rashid is good enough, yes. Plunkett - I have obviously seen more Yorkshire than anyone else but he has seemed to me to have the sharpest wheels of any serious candidate.
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Hell I forgot about Bell good shout.
Root technical deficiency are all there to see but even the daftest of people can see there a quality test cricketer in there.
Your right there left field some of the thoughts I suspect a rather couple of game bowling attacks will either confirm or finish a few batting spots this summer
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This is where I would go personally. Rashis is in as lower order batter and bowl a bit on days 4/5. If those 3 can't bowl out a side in our own conditions then we are in trouble.
Trott comes in for Taylor and bell drops to 4 if he is well enough to do so.
Cook
Carberry
Bell
Taylor
Morgan
Stokes
Prior
Rashid
Broad
Anderson
Onions
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I think it was just one bad series and we have gone a bit over the top to be honest. Maybe the KP thing is a good move one bad apple an all that! Carberry will be made a scapegoat of the 5 nill defeat purely becasue of his age. If it was on performance then none of the batters from the series would be playing. I reckon if he was given some time to settle in he could be similar to rodgers and score a fair amount of runs at test level over the next two or three years.
Another talking point Root is has he done enough to warrant a place in the test side. Id like to see him gone back down to 6 like in India let him learn the game a little bit like Ian Bell has done.
I reckon Robson will have to be picked for the first test of summer. 4 lions hundreds over the winter you cant knock the door down anymore really.
Balance looked good in the last test of the aussie tourlooks like a terst match player and scored runs in the championship this past summer
My team would be
Cook
Robson
Carberry
Balance
Bell
Root
Stokes
Prior
Finn
Anderson
Monty
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or maybe james taylor for balance actually
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Isn't Plunkett's action the equivalent of porcelain?
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Robson needs to be given a go no matter what, Steve Finn should have been playing 5 tests ago as well.
If we look to the future, Buttler seems to be the man for the gloves, but for now they must stay with Prior and allow Buttler to have a good season at alancs and in the one day formats.
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Isn't Plunkett's action the equivalent of porcelain?
He managed to make it through the whole of last season without an issue and bowled some of the quickest spells I saw. Watching him having Chris Rogers jumping around like he had ants in his pants at Lords was superb!
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Its the classic 'do we second guess the selectors', who we are less likely to agree with, or do we go for the Championship Manager-scenario of picking in a 'throw the baby out with the bathwater/pick a team of kids and to hell with history/the likelihood of freezing on the big stage'? Or somewhere in between?
I think the selectors are interested in Ali, Buttler, Robson, but you have to have some experience in there, be it Test or FC. They may go with Carberry or even (if the backroom team goes) Compton to partner Cook. You won't win anything solely with kids. Man Utd, when they won the title in 95/6 with the Class of 92, had a spine of Schmeichel, Bruce, Pallister, Keane, Cantona and Cole - not all kids... Bangladesh have had to, and West Indies trying, to do this with an inexperienced side. Both are very inconsistent.
I do agree that you need a player with the ability to take the game away from a team early on. Carberry has the ability to do that. No one had a good series in Australia, but he played as well as players with 90, 100 Test caps. Give him the licence to play his natural game, which is more expansive than he was in Australia.
Quite why you wouldn't play Onions early season in England is beyond me. I think a spinner is largely irrelevant as it will be the seam and swing that will skittle Sri Lankans. There will need to be a change mid/late summer with the Indians and I wonder if Monty with a proven track record against India may be the man they go to. My squad for the summer would be;
Cook (c)
Carberry/Robson (definitely keep an eye on Robson and give him the instruction that he's the next man in if he plays well and Carberry doesn't push on. I think Carberry deserves a crack in conditions he's used to before we cast him aside. If he does kick on, you have a player who knows his game and could serve England for another 3 years. Robson is making a good case though...)
Root
Bell (@4 to provide stability and experience)
Taylor/Morgan (if Morgan has a good start to the FC season, he should be considered, not necessarily for Taylor who deserves a decent go)
Stokes (needs to play at 6. England seem to want to go with the all-rounder, so play Stokes where you maximise his role)
Prior (under pressure from Buttler, who I think needs a decent FC season before stepping up)
Broad
Onions/Finn (I'd love Finn to play from the off, but he needs to get firing again - I think that may take some time, but if he's good for India in mid summer, play him. He's our top pace bowler who has the ability for a Johnson-esque style comeback, if he gets right)
Anderson
Borthwick/Panesar/Rashid - I genuinely have no clue! Probably Panesar against the Indians for me. Again, experience the overriding factor.
Looking forward to the 2015 Ashes, the only players from that group I see being replaced are Anderson, Prior and Panesar (assuming Carberry makes way for Robson as is the most likely scenario). That gives you 8 players with a minimum two years Test experience and you hopefully have Trott coming in at some point as well.