Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Willow and Willow Trees.... => Topic started by: bigcatcricket on January 22, 2015, 07:00:51 AM
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Have been reading the forums for many years now. Thought I will contribute. I am starting with a long thread so excuse me. I have always wondered about the explanation for following statements that people often make about willow:
#1: More/tighter the grains better the ping
#2: More/tighter the grains lesser the life
#3: Bat with more number grains or tighter grains opens quicker than one with lesser number of grains
#4: Knocking-in opens up the bat
So I did some research and here is the gist. Please let me know if it makes any sense. Still some questions need answers:
The cross section of a willow bat/cleft/tree reveals a series of parallel straws (http://www.psmicrographs.co.uk/corkscrew-willow-xylem--sem-/science-image/80201781 (http://www.psmicrographs.co.uk/corkscrew-willow-xylem--sem-/science-image/80201781)). This seems to be unique in willow among other tree's. The moisture content can escape very quickly due to these open ends when cut hence the need to wax/varnish the ends as the cleft is cut. At the same time, if left on a wet surface moisture can rise up into the toe and beyond rapidly through capillary action. This explains why the toe swells up sometimes. In pressing one aims to harden a thin layer of the face by compression and this in essence flattens the straws and allows them to flex into the soft middle which upon return to shape gives the rebound. More the natural moisture trapped in the straws, more the surface will rebound. Low density willow means that the straws are wider in diameter tapping more moisture.
Now about grains (copied from http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/1_Wood_Grain/1_Wood_Grain.htm (http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/1_Wood_Grain/1_Wood_Grain.htm)): At the very center is the pith. In some trees, this is much softer and possibly a different color than the surrounding heartwood. Heartwood is made up of dead cells that no longer serve any purpose except to support the tree. Next is the sapwood, which carries water, minerals, and plant sugars between the roots and the leaves. This is often lighter in color than the heartwood. Outside the sapwood, close to the surface, is the cambium, a thin layer of living cells. These cells manufacture the wood as they grow. The cambium is covered by a protective layer of bark. The cambium grows rapidly at the beginning of each growing season, creating light colored springwood. As the climate warms, it slows down and produces darker summerwood. This later growth is somewhat denser and harder than the early springwood. As the weather turns cold, the cambium becomes dormant until the next spring. This cycle produces distinctive growth rings.
The darker color of the grain, which is also the harder part, runs perpendicular to the face of the bat. I would imagine that tighter grains would result in a overall harder surface that will be harder to flex inwards. So how does having tighter grains result in a more "pingy" bat? Some say that the harder surface has a better transfer of energy to the ball and lesser vibrations. So by that standard, we should press our bats more. I am not quite sure how the life of the bat is related. Some say that tighter grain bat is older wood, which makes sense. But I am not sure why older wood would break easier if it harder. Does it make the bat more brittle?
The process of knocking knits the surface fibers together forming the thin layer at the top. This layer flexes and rebounds upon impact and the inner straws go through temporary compression and decompression. I believe knocking helps in making the inner straw like structures loosen so they can compress easier and then decompress back to their original shape hence providing better rebound.
Not sure if all this makes sense. It would be good to get some discussion going.
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What a facinating post-lots of food for thought (and discussion).
I am sure others, far more knowledgeable will be along shortly.
One thought I have, relates to '... I would imagine that tighter grains would result in a overall harder surface that will be harder to flex inwards. So how does having tighter grains result in a more "pingy" bat?...', is that the tighter grain bat will therefore need less pressing to produce the optimum 'ping', than clefts with fewer grains. This reflects bat-makers saying that different amounts of pressing are required for different clefts.
Thanks for posting,
David
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The more grains on a cleft the older the willow the older the willow the less the lifespan of the bat due to the willow having less moisture but a lot depends on the quality of the pressing.
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The tighter the grain the slower the tree has grown. this is often an indication of the climate. Tighter grains are often found towards the centre of the tree where the timber is more dense. However, periods of cold weather can result in a tighter grain structure.
As timber is seasoned the grains want to straighten, this causes timber to warp.
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Would be keen to hear from what the batmakers on the forum have to say. I was always told the more grains the better, but then Julian Millichamp has always held the belief that 7-9 grains produce the best bats, but also a more long lasting bat. For the pros durability and longevity isn't so much of a concern, for us weekend warriors that have to pay for our equipment it might be a more pertinent point...
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I'm not sure I buy this bat durability / longevity thing on the whole. If a Pro bat was to be replaced every 3000 balls that equates to 500 overs (this is a random figure that happy to be advised elsewise). Personally I'm lucky to face 500 balls in league cricket. Add onto friendlies and nets that figure would potentially be nearer 1250 per year. I also face bowlers far slower than those a pro bat would face my bat should sustain less damage and wear potentially increasing its longevity in comparison.
Therefore it could be argued that a 'pro bat' could last 2/3 season for your average club cricketer, when most would be thinking about a change. Plus given the average span of bat ownership on these pages is probably about 2 seasons longer than they're kept for!
Just some musings
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I'm not sure I buy this bat durability / longevity thing on the whole. If a Pro bat was to be replaced every 3000 balls that equates to 500 overs (this is a random figure that happy to be advised elsewise). Personally I'm lucky to face 500 balls in league cricket. Add onto friendlies and nets that figure would potentially be nearer 1250 per year. I also face bowlers far slower than those a pro bat would face my bat should sustain less damage and wear potentially increasing its longevity in comparison.
Therefore it could be argued that a 'pro bat' could last 2/3 season for your average club cricketer, when most would be thinking about a change. Plus given the average span of bat ownership on these pages is probably about 2 seasons longer than they're kept for!
Just some musings
Your analysis on how much cricket an amateur plays compared to a pro and related standards like pace etc is right on the mark. But one important aspect you are forgetting is the quality of the cricket balls. The balls we use are half as good and much harder which can break the bat easily. So a pro quality bat may not last 2/3 seasons...
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True, but is there that much difference between decent league balls and county or test balls? And could it be argued a county ball being bowled at 80mph would do more damage than a league ball bowled at 60?
If there 2 identically weighted, sized and 'pinging' bats I suspect most would pick the bat with 15+ straight grains rather than 7 straight grains. Much more likely to get 7-10grain bats though due to nature of felling willow at the earliest opportunity.
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True, but is there that much difference between decent league balls and county or test balls? And could it be argued a county ball being bowled at 80mph would do more damage than a league ball bowled at 60?
If there 2 identically weighted, sized and 'pinging' bats I suspect most would pick the bat with 15+ straight grains rather than 7 straight grains. Much more likely to get 7-10grain bats though due to nature of felling willow at the earliest opportunity.
Its not just the speed, its also about how consistently pros middle the ball and average club cricketer does. I have used the most expensive Kooka ball available and felt lot different from the one we use in our league. Even the sound it makes is different when it hits the bat, dont feel the vibrations at all unless its is completely off.
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Of course, clubs could use higher quality balls... Trouble is, no one wants to pay the extra for them.. Oh and sponsors aren't going to give you a decent quality ball.. They go for the adequate cheap option for them
Personally, I think clubs should be free to use whatever they want.. So if you want a kook that will die in 5 overs great.. If your players want to spend the extra £2 per match fee to use a test quality duke.. Then they should
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Some folks at my club say that the older wood (more grains) bat lasts longer, saying something that fewer grain bat is younger wood and more prone to breakage.
Regarding Cricket Balls, We (Vancouver, Canada) use Kookaburra's from Australia and tried Duke ones which didn't work out. The Duke balls were more bouncy. a difference in one being hand stitched and the other machine stitched.
Also i agree practise balls are just garbage, The SG ones, one has to hold shotmaking when facing such rock hard balls. One guy bowled a high full toss and i just blocked it, then i saw it left a dent close to the shoulder of my bat.
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@alee what kind of kooka are you using mate....would love to try dukes some day...nice see someone from the west coast on the forum :) I am on the east side..halifax. ..do you know Vimal hardat?
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Hi Tushar,
Yes, I know Vimal but only as a player. He plays for Abbotsford Cricket Club with Jimmy Hansra.
I play at a higher division that uses a white Kookaburra (colour clothing), not sure what model though, will check it out, But i know that the other divisions use a Red Kookaburra Senator cricket ball.
Is there a proper cricket league in Halifax?
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The tighter grain bat will therefore need less pressing to produce the optimum 'ping', than clefts with fewer grains. This reflects bat-makers saying that different amounts of pressing are required for different clefts.
Totally agree that different clefts will require individual attention for pressing. However, still not convinced why tighter grain bats should play better. What is the main contributing factor? Is it the stiffness due to tighter grain transferring more energy to the ball?
As some of you have indicated, tighter grain bats generally come from older trees. Older willow should be drier, denser, and harder. Hence the argument of longevity. Some of you have pointed out that the heartwood is more likely to have tighter grains but is denser than sapwood. No wonder we are seeing more color in tighter grain bats these days. I believe more the moisture in the willow, better the ping as more moisture in the stem structures will give better rebound. Hoping that some batmakers/experts can chime in.
Certainly professional grade willow (used to make bats for internationals) is just not graded based on looks alone. It probably is a combination of low density cleft (giving it wider stems), high moisture content (giving great rebound), and tighter grains (good energy transfer). Most internationals use single color bats coming from the softer part of the tree. Hence making it a rare combination. The rest of us get the remaining permutations and combinations and one has to be lucky to get all of them together.
Would love to see more views on this.
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Narrower grain is older and much more susceptible to breaking and splitting simply because it as aged a lot more.
Heartwood does not generally last as long as sapwood as it is much harder and is lacking in sap this is what makes the willow brittle.
Also
It is taken from the centre of the tree where the wood is older and harder
To summarise : What makes a great bat
1 Quality of the willow
2 Quality of the handle
3Quality of the pressing
4 weight distribution to correct areas for feel and performance.
5 Shaping must be done correctly.
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I'm with Adi on clubs being allowed to buy their own balls. Most leagues use it as a method to extract sponsorship from ball suppliers while pocketing the difference and ripping off clubs ie. league gets £2500 a year, in return the clubs order 600 balls @ £15 = £9000 but what they actually get is a ball worth £11 and the rest is paying for the sponsorship. If clubs were allowed to choose there own balls then they would get a better ball for the same money.
That's a bit simplistic as some clubs couldn't afford good balls while others can, leading to matches that could be dominated by different balls. Sorry for going off topic a little.
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But how many clubs would by the £2 sports direct specials to save money?
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ive found this ball issue to be getting worse
the cheaper balls are bat and hand breakers, ive seen both in league and friendlies
coupled with stupid amounts of early swing.
The average clubbie has no idea how rubbish these balls really are
my apologies for going off topic,(which is very interesting)
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But how many clubs would by the £2 sports direct specials to save money?
There would be a few but the sports direct balls I have had recently just go soft very quickly. Anyway you can set specific set of suppliers or a minimum spend per ball. I have got some very decent balls from a local supplier for £6. They shine well, hold their shape and have a decent seam. Perfectly acceptable for low level league cricket and certainly not bat breakers. The bat breakers I have seen recently tend to be imported unknown brand balls that some guy thought was a bargain until it trashes 3 bats in the first game.
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In terms of bats, we are lucky. Our league balls are ridicolously soft. Which poses the other problem. There square after ten overs.
We lobbied for a ball change as the balls were from a previous sponsor that no longer sponsors league, but there ball use is still wrote in the league.
We had a chance to try new balls in a dead rubber, they were good held there shape and shine and had swing without being over the top.
In the oppo innings our number 3 put one in the woods in over 8, was never found again so there spare was a previous league ball.
In the report the opposition then slagged the new ball off despite only using it for 8 overs. So the league ruled to continue using the crap soft balls for the foreseeable future.
Cricket shot itself in the foot that day.
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Hi Tushar,
Yes, I know Vimal but only as a player. He plays for Abbotsford Cricket Club with Jimmy Hansra.
I play at a higher division that uses a white Kookaburra (colour clothing), not sure what model though, will check it out, But i know that the other divisions use a Red Kookaburra Senator cricket ball.
Is there a proper cricket league in Halifax?
Yes we have a proper league mate but not as good a standard or # of players as BC. We do have a decent enough provincial team, which comes from league players, that is now on par with Quebec :). We lost to them last season but had beaten then 2 seasons in a row before that.
all our cricket T-20 or OD so white ball and colored kit for us :), I have only played against BC once i think it was back in 2008 during the Scotia Bank T-20 at Maple Leaf CC in Toronto
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I introduced the Tiflex ball into the Cambs league both tucker leagues and senior and junior leagues what I did was that on a certain Saturday certain leagues were given a ball each with a ball report form this came at no cost to the clubs all forms were collected and sent to the powers to be end result overwhelming result to Tiflex ball hence the reason they are still the choice of ball for this League. If there are cricket boards out there wanting to do an above mentioned trial please contact me there are some very generous Sponsorships being offered but more importantly a very good ball will be supplied.
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Gary,
Our league currently uses Readers balls but I'm sure some kind of trial with the Tiflex ball would be accepted by the league. If it benefits the league and the players playing in it then why not?
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Starting a new T20 here in the states, would willing to be trial.
"I introduced the Tiflex ball into the Cambs league both tucker leagues and senior and junior leagues what I did was that on a certain Saturday certain leagues were given a ball each with a ball report form this came at no cost to the clubs all forms were collected and sent to the powers to be end result overwhelming result to Tiflex ball hence the reason they are still the choice of ball for this League. If there are cricket boards out there wanting to do an above mentioned trial please contact me there are some very generous Sponsorships being offered but more importantly a very good ball will be supplied."
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Another topic right up my street - I hope you don’t mind me gate-crashing your thread
Have been reading the forums for many years now. Thought I will contribute. I am starting with a long thread so excuse me. I have always wondered about the explanation for following statements that people often make about willow:
#1: More/tighter the grains better the ping
#2: More/tighter the grains lesser the life
#3: Bat with more number grains or tighter grains opens quicker than one with lesser number of grains
All correct assumptions, the thing to remember is that willow is natural, and there will always be exceptions to this rule, as willow follows a natural variation curve in its properties
#4: Knocking-in opens up the bat
Actually the opposite - knocking in fully compresses the fibres at the very surface- acting like a micro press
So I did some research and here is the gist. Please let me know if it makes any sense. Still some questions need answers:
The cross section of a willow bat/cleft/tree reveals a series of parallel straws ([url]http://www.psmicrographs.co.uk/corkscrew-willow-xylem--sem-/science-image/80201781[/url] ([url]http://www.psmicrographs.co.uk/corkscrew-willow-xylem--sem-/science-image/80201781[/url])). This seems to be unique in willow among other tree's. The moisture content can escape very quickly due to these open ends when cut hence the need to wax/varnish the ends as the cleft is cut. At the same time, if left on a wet surface moisture can rise up into the toe and beyond rapidly through capillary action. This explains why the toe swells up sometimes. In pressing one aims to harden a thin layer of the face by compression and this in essence flattens the straws and allows them to flex into the soft middle which upon return to shape gives the rebound. More the natural moisture trapped in the straws, more the surface will rebound. Low density willow means that the straws are wider in diameter tapping more moisture.
You are right, willow dos not have a typical, cell structure as it is diffuse porous instead of ring porous - and this is key to why it has excelled in the use in Cricket Bats, and also the reason why willow grown in different climates is not so suited, as the change in climate, changes its cell structure.
There are two types of cell - transport & structural. The transport are wider / thin walled compared to the structural, during pressing these cells get squashed - press too fiercely (different to hard press) and you will crush the cell destroying the cell wall. When a bat is exposed to water these cells open back up - hence the swelling.
Moisture has the opposite effect, less moisture and the bat will play better and there is a direct correlation to this, which has been tested. However, it is not quite that simple, as the dryer you go the more brittle the bat will become and you will get a reduction in endurance, to dry and the bat will break up in a matter of games. The ideal moisture content is 10 - 11%
Now about grains (copied from [url]http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/1_Wood_Grain/1_Wood_Grain.htm[/url] ([url]http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/1_Wood_Grain/1_Wood_Grain.htm[/url])): At the very center is the pith. In some trees, this is much softer and possibly a different color than the surrounding heartwood. Heartwood is made up of dead cells that no longer serve any purpose except to support the tree. Next is the sapwood, which carries water, minerals, and plant sugars between the roots and the leaves. This is often lighter in color than the heartwood. Outside the sapwood, close to the surface, is the cambium, a thin layer of living cells. These cells manufacture the wood as they grow. The cambium is covered by a protective layer of bark. The cambium grows rapidly at the beginning of each growing season, creating light colored springwood. As the climate warms, it slows down and produces darker summerwood. This later growth is somewhat denser and harder than the early springwood. As the weather turns cold, the cambium becomes dormant until the next spring. This cycle produces distinctive growth rings.
The darker color of the grain, which is also the harder part, runs perpendicular to the face of the bat. I would imagine that tighter grains would result in a overall harder surface that will be harder to flex inwards. So how does having tighter grains result in a more "pingy" bat? Some say that the harder surface has a better transfer of energy to the ball and lesser vibrations. So by that standard, we should press our bats more. I am not quite sure how the life of the bat is related. Some say that tighter grain bat is older wood, which makes sense. But I am not sure why older wood would break easier if it harder. Does it make the bat more brittle?
You are confusing hardness with stiffness - more grains increases the stiffness - a harder press results in a harder surface. There is a direct correlation between stiffness and brittleness - hence this is where "the more grains a bat has it won’t last as long" myth comes from.
The process of knocking knits the surface fibre’s together forming the thin layer at the top. This layer flexes and rebounds upon impact and the inner straws go through temporary compression and decompression. I believe knocking helps in making the inner straw like structures loosen so they can compress easier and then decompress back to their original shape hence providing better rebound.
As above knocking in actually compresses the cells at the surface even further.
Not sure if all this makes sense. It would be good to get some discussion going.
Some great points, the majority of my research actually supported the urban myths of bats and performance. It was however great to understand why, and use this knowledge to increase the performance of bats
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Please pm or contact me on 07525727782 for those that may be interested in trialling a new ball re T 20 would you be looking at White or pink ball ?
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I introduced the Tiflex ball into the Cambs league both tucker leagues and senior and junior leagues what I did was that on a certain Saturday certain leagues were given a ball each with a ball report form this came at no cost to the clubs all forms were collected and sent to the powers to be end result overwhelming result to Tiflex ball hence the reason they are still the choice of ball for this League. If there are cricket boards out there wanting to do an above mentioned trial please contact me there are some very generous Sponsorships being offered but more importantly a very good ball will be supplied.
Having played in the cambs league last season, I was impressed with the ball used in Tucker 1 and 2 (very dark in colour, held it shape and gave a good shine if you worked hard) while pretty disappointed with the ball used in the lower leagues (much more traditional red and a really nasty plastic finish that never lost its shine). The lower league ball certainly felt a lot cheaper.
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Another topic right up my street - I hope you don’t mind me gate-crashing your thread
Some great points, the majority of my research actually supported the urban myths of bats and performance. It was however great to understand why, and use this knowledge to increase the performance of bats
You want a leading technician in willow even the suppliers trust there you go great read streaky thanks for your time.