Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => World Cricket => Topic started by: arsenal123 on March 09, 2015, 11:48:38 AM
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Where do we go from here... Aside from the obvious sack the board/coaches comments.
We only have one ODI player who would get into most teams in the world - Jos Buttler. Lets get him upto 5 firstly and set the agenda in a match. In addition, lets invest in James Taylor and let him skipper and bat 3. Lets discard Anderson and let him focus on test cricket.
One to Eleven
1.
2.
3. Taylor
4.
5. Buttler
6. Ali
7.
8. Woakes
9. Jordan
10.
11.
Other spaces all up for grabs as far as I'm concerned. Everyone elses thoughts?
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Bin jordan as far as im concerned im affraid.
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I feel Jordan's gone backwards - however, may be worth sticking with him.
Should be looking at Parry, Rashid, Riley or someone - in ODI cricket, I don't see a problem with two spinners, particularly if you get Stokes or Bopara operating as a 4th seamer.
I don't see enough domestic cricket, but names I see bandied about include:
Vince
Coles
Billings
Topley
Brooks
Wood
Roland-Jones
Malan
and are Wright, Lumb and Borthwick still worth a look at?
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How has Root been left out of all this? He's probably been the best playing in all formats for England for the last 2 years!
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Jason Roy has to open
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Where do we go from here... Aside from the obvious sack the board/coaches comments.
We only have one ODI player who would get into most teams in the world - Jos Buttler. Lets get him upto 5 firstly and set the agenda in a match. In addition, lets invest in James Taylor and let him skipper and bat 3. Lets discard Anderson and let him focus on test cricket.
One to Eleven
1.
2.
3. Taylor
4.
5. Buttler
6. Ali
7.
8. Woakes
9. Jordan
10.
11.
Other spaces all up for grabs as far as I'm concerned. Everyone elses thoughts?
You're dropping Joe Root? Really?
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Pick an actual spinner for one thing.
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I feel Jordan's gone backwards - however, may be worth sticking with him.
Should be looking at Parry, Rashid, Riley or someone - in ODI cricket, I don't see a problem with two spinners, particularly if you get Stokes or Bopara operating as a 4th seamer.
I don't see enough domestic cricket, but names I see bandied about include:
Vince
Coles
Billings
Topley
Brooks
Wood
Roland-Jones
Malan
and are Wright, Lumb and Borthwick still worth a look at?
Coles will need to find a county.
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As much as picking the right players is key, what really needs to change is English crickets attitude. We need need more positivity, less what players can't do and more what they can do. With this approach Hales would have been in when he was rated the world best T20 bat and could well have kicked on for the WC. Until the attitude changes results won't.
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To me there is a pattern with Moores - great at finding talent, absolutely useless at developing it at international level. England only improved once he left last time, even though some of players were his picks.
I think we need somebody who can take the younger players on to another level and be brave to pick from the talent that's being held back. We had a better team playing in the big bash for heavens sake!
Get Colly in as ODI coach now and give Moores until the end of the summer to prove he is a decent test match coach.
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1.ROY
2.HALES
3. Taylor
4.ROOT
5. Buttler
6. Ali
7.STOKES
8. Woakes
9. Jordan
10.
11.
i'd add those (caps) into the side from the first post, just need another seamer (maybe finn) and a spinner for me
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Apologies. Realised afterwards that Root had been unfairly left out!
1.
2.
3. Taylor
4. Root
5. Buttler
6. Ali
7.
8. Woakes
9. Jordan
10.
11.
Personally I'd get Roy, Billings and Stokes in there.
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Id also say i reckon mik newell would be a great international coach, he uses basically the same group of players for the LVCC and domestic one day stuff at notts but has multiple mindsets, possibly the best coach/manager on the domestic circuit why not promote him to the england job as hes already a selector.
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Colly head coach
With Backroom of Gough and Nixon for me
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yeah we must start with the coach. I wonder what Giles thinks now?
seriously we need a new coach right now, the game cannot be won with computers,charts,graphs...it's won by match experience and thinking cricketers..
and Broad is a liability now. should never play another one dayer for us,Anderson no better.
morgan has got less runs than Cook but got shafted by his two supposed senior bowlers
abject rubbish we have been
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Just really hoping they don't go after Jason Gillespie and leave Yorkshire without him!
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yeah we must start with the coach. I wonder what Giles thinks now?
seriously we need a new coach right now, the game cannot be won with computers,charts,graphs...it's won by match experience and thinking cricketers..
and Broad is a liability now. should never play another one dayer for us,Anderson no better.
morgan has got less runs than Cook but got shafted by his two supposed senior bowlers
abject rubbish we have been
Giles main complaint while in charge was never being able to play his best team. While the back to back ashes did cause a unique challenge and was a total muck up by the ECB, I don't see why Anderson didn't go to Sri Lanka. Talking of Giles, he unearthed Lumb to open the batting and he did pretty well until Moores thought he knew better with Cook.
To me a pattern is developing - taking t20 players with the hitting ability and moulding them into ODI players. Warner/Finch for example. Not sure the practise of taking test cricketers and turning them into ODI players is going to work for England in every case. Don't see Australia playing Rodgers do you, but we persisted with Cook!
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Colly head coach
With Backroom of Gough and Nixon for me
That's not a bad shout, get some coaches/management in who have walked the walk.
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To me a pattern is developing - taking t20 players with the hitting ability and moulding them into ODI players. Warner/Finch for example. Not sure the practise of taking test cricketers and turning them into ODI players is going to work for England in every case. Don't see Australia playing Rodgers do you, but we persisted with Cook!
This!
All other nations have cricketers who play without fear and play positive cricket. They will attack first and if it's a good ball, defend or leave it when necessary. Our approach for years has been don't get out and then hit the bad ball. For other Nations to score 300+ regularly, there can't be that many bad balls! They just turn a high percentage shot option into a boundary option and back their skills! Why oh why do the players continually fear they will be dropped if they fail.
Playing to avoid failure will not bring success compared to those who play to succeed!
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Answer is simple. Put people in the positions they are for their county. Use the players where they have been a success!
1) Roy
2) Hales
3) Root
4) Stokes
5) Taylor
6) Ali
7) Butler
8) Willey
9) Tredwell
10) Wood
11) Finn
Every team has a top spinner so why Tredwell left out? You need a strike bowler like Finn. WOOD AND WILLEY have been bowling at the death for last few years. Give them an extended run, and we have a lot of young kids with one day skill.
It's time to have virtually separate one day teams to test match squads. We don't have (yet) the Warners, Dilshans, sangakarra etc so let's get different coaches to work on the one day sides and test match side as different skills sets.
Let Taylor be captain and give him time to sort things out. I would prefer Root to stick to being a test match player only as I think his play suffers in.tests after playing a one day series. All to often he gets out playing one day shots...
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I would like to see James Vince in there somewhere.
Taylor i like the idea of him as captain l
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I actually think Vince is an all round better player than Hales anyways.
Also, if putting players in positions where they have been a success Taylor must bat at 3. Has been the best 3 in county cricket for a long time.
The forum seems pretty settled on Roy, Root, Taylor, Stokes, Buttler. Build the team around them.
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To be honest most of the county one day games I have seen Taylor in, he has batted 4/5. If he bats at 3 I think he gets found out by the shorter ball and having fielders close in early on. I know he has had success for England at 3 but they were mainly slow pitches.
Wouldn't disagree with Vince, Billings, Bairstow, Ansari and the Yorkshire lads.
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Answer is simple. Put people in the positions they are for their county. Use the players where they have been a success!
1) Roy
2) Hales
3) Root
4) Stokes
5) Taylor
6) Ali
7) Butler
8) Willey
9) Tredwell
10) Wood
11) Finn
Every team has a top spinner so why Tredwell left out? You need a strike bowler like Finn. WOOD AND WILLEY have been bowling at the death for last few years. Give them an extended run, and we have a lot of young kids with one day skill.
It's time to have virtually separate one day teams to test match squads. We don't have (yet) the Warners, Dilshans, sangakarra etc so let's get different coaches to work on the one day sides and test match side as different skills sets.
Let Taylor be captain and give him time to sort things out. I would prefer Root to stick to being a test match player only as I think his play suffers in.tests after playing a one day series. All to often he gets out playing one day shots...
There is a balance to be had though. Part of the reason test players are used for ODI cricket is because they can play at that level. Some players who do well at County level simply aren't good enough to play international cricket. Using the 90s for examples - Chris Adams, John Morris - both big county players but came up short internationally for whatever reason. The problem with throwing in lots of players without test credentials is you end losing alot (which we do anyway) and the revolving door issue, which isn't great for morale. I doubt Wood/Willey are ODI quality bowlers but they can't be any worse than Gurney. It's just a case of how you blend the team together over time.
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Hmmmm...
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sack everyone involved with the ECB, anyone who has blindly followed them also must go. Sack every analyst, coach, manager, kit man involved with the whole set up (including lions, kids etc.. the lot have failed)
I'd break the England set up into three teams, each one independent of the other with different coaches, analysts, managers etc (although, obviously there can be some cross over with some jobs in the support admin staff). Bring in the right staff for the job in hand.
The only players I'd keep from this mob is Root, Moeen (although he'd never open again and would have to improve his spin to become a front line spinner), Hales, Buttler and Taylor. The rest are kicked out on their ear and all central contracts removed immediately. I'd do away with central contracts and go on a game by game reward system for players with the most money going to test players and going down fromt here. Players MUST play for their counties regularly and teams picked on form, not just teh same mob having a cushy lifestyle like the idiots we have now. In theory it should make them the best but as we've seen, they get lazy, and lose touch with reality.
all the normal names need putting in straight away and the culture of fear needs bringing to an end. whilst I don't wnat to see slogging all the time unfortunately that's the way the pro game has gone so we need sloggers.
Players like Carberry, Lumb, Vince, Roy, Rashid, Stokes.
Finn needs binning until he can bowl 90 mph again, at the minute he's just painful to watch and cannon fodder
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I would like to see Stokes be given a license to be the player we all know he could become.
Put him in as both a 6th bowler and 6th batsman in the same way as Corey Anderson has been used for NZ and Maxwell for Australia. No pressure of having to come off every time to own his place in the side, let him win games and develop naturally.
Maxwell was not discarded after some brainless cricket and Aus will reap the rewards for years. Lets hope England will do the same. I won't hold my breath. This is a selection panel that will try and turn Hales into a number 3 accumulator...
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As a policy issue I would like England to treat the formats (at least single vs multiple day games) as properly seperate now and pick squads to reflect that. The amount of cricket England are going to play over the next 12 months - 15 tests in ten months IIRC - means that there should be a prompt cull of any Test player who won't be under 30 at the start of the next world cup (so Anderson, Broad, Bell are gone) - there would then have to be some consideration as to whether or not Root and Buttler (and possibly Woakes and Ali as well, though neither should be anything like a lock for the Test side just yet) can realy sustain the workload being demanded of them.
Then, pick a squad of players - 15-16 should be enough - and stick with them for the next 18 months.
Who? Ah, thats tricky. My selection might be:
Hales
Ali
Roy
Vince
Stokes
Buttler
Morgan (c)
Rashid
Woakes
Jordan
Footitt
Plus Willey, Lees, Riley, Ali and Mills
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As a policy issue I would like England to treat the formats (at least single vs multiple day games) as properly seperate now and pick squads to reflect that. The amount of cricket England are going to play over the next 12 months - 15 tests in ten months IIRC - means that there should be a prompt cull of any Test player who won't be under 30 at the start of the next world cup (so Anderson, Broad, Bell are gone) - there would then have to be some consideration as to whether or not Root and Buttler (and possibly Woakes and Ali as well, though neither should be anything like a lock for the Test side just yet) can realy sustain the workload being demanded of them.
Then, pick a squad of players - 15-16 should be enough - and stick with them for the next 18 months.
Who? Ah, thats tricky. My selection might be:
Hales
Ali
Roy
Vince
Stokes
Buttler
Morgan (c)
Rashid
Woakes
Jordan
Footitt
Plus Willey, Lees, Riley, Ali and Mills
Agree on workloads. Would you prioritise Tests? ODI's ? T20's? So if Buttler/Root for arguements sake are going to play all forms.. they won't survive long term due ot burn out.. What do we put first? Personally, tests. That's where the wages and ECB money should be focused to encourage players to be proper players but others Im sure disagree.
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there should be a prompt cull of any Test player who won't be under 30 at the start of the next world cup (so Anderson, Broad, Bell are gone)
Bit harsh on Broad, currently 28, to end his ODI career now when he will only be 32 at the next world cup. Then again he's been rubbish for a long time in ODI cricket, so we can drop him on form anyway :D
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Agree on workloads. Would you prioritise Tests? ODI's ? T20's? So if Buttler/Root for arguements sake are going to play all forms.. they won't survive long term due ot burn out.. What do we put first? Personally, tests. That's where the wages and ECB money should be focused to encourage players to be proper players but others Im sure disagree.
That has to be a case by case basis - for Root I would tend to prioritise tests - his batting is more naturally suited to that format and he has clearly been lined up to be a future captain of the long format side. Buttler is a harder call because I don't think he has yet evidenced that he is as great of a fit for Test cricket as he is for the shorter formats - for the time being I'd keep him in both but in the medium term it may be that there are better bets to at least rotate the test job.
As for overall objectives, Test cricket is the number one, but by splitting the sides you do in effect give them all equal priority.
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Bit harsh on Broad, currently 28, to end his ODI career now when he will only be 32 at the next world cup. Then again he's been rubbish for a long time in ODI cricket, so we can drop him on form anyway :D
He is indeed struggling - but I would argue that its less harsh given that he is an old 28 in terms of the injuries he has had and the miles on the clock.
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There is a balance to be had though. Part of the reason test players are used for ODI cricket is because they can play at that level. Some players who do well at County level simply aren't good enough to play international cricket. Using the 90s for examples - Chris Adams, John Morris - both big county players but came up short internationally for whatever reason. The problem with throwing in lots of players without test credentials is you end losing alot (which we do anyway) and the revolving door issue, which isn't great for morale. I doubt Wood/Willey are ODI quality bowlers but they can't be any worse than Gurney. It's just a case of how you blend the team together over time.
I agree there has to be a balance. However because of the way our younger stars have been thrown in and made to play both formats, Root, Balance, Bopara (when younger) Stokes, Taylor, Finn etc etc at an early stage in their development, all have failed at sometime. Surely if they show potential in the four day game then let them play in.the test sides for a few years and leave one day games to those who excel at it. With the technology available today to many of our young players have been found out to have certain flaws and therefore a period of uncertainty and poor performances follow. We have a large pool of players that if coached correctly can specialise in one particular format (exceptions are Peiterson). For the last 10 years England's selectors have tried to fit the same 16 players each year into all 3 formats, when in.truth probably only a 3rd of them could play all 3...,
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Buttler is being completely mis used at the moment. We are absolutely desperate for people who can svore quickly, and he is the olayer who finds this easiest, therefore we have to maximise what we get out of him
Yes he can score 30 off 15 better than anyone else, but because the rest are so useless thats not enough. He should bat at 4 or 5 where he has time to score 70 plus at a strikerate of over 100. Unlike all the oothers, his natural game will get about 6 an over before any particular effort in acceleration.
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Oh and theres also another issue - yes we obviously dont have the players in the side at the moment to score 350, but today we were only chasing 270. Today was just incompetence.
Why is it, despite scoring so slowly, all the batsmen still seem to get out so easily?
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Buttler is being completely mis used at the moment. We are absolutely desperate for people who can svore quickly, and he is the olayer who finds this easiest, therefore we have to maximise what we get out of him
Yes he can score 30 off 15 better than anyone else, but because the rest are so useless thats not enough. He should bat at 4 or 5 where he has time to score 70 plus at a strikerate of over 100. Unlike all the oothers, his natural game will get about 6 an over before any particular effort in acceleration.
if you put him in too early he'll nick off or get bowled through teh gate regularly as he can't play the swinging/seaming ball. Did you see him play and miss at balls today that were just outside off, decent length and moving? He is good at what he does but lets' not think he's the saviour
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He's perfectly capable of coming in at say 30 overs in, and at least this way, when he does come off he'll have time to actually impact the game, instead of just putting the icing on a rotten cake.
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Think thats the general point though. Swing with the two new balls stops after 15 overs-ish in one day cricket. The ball is still hard and flies off the bat, give him a chance to go.
I'm pretty sure DeVilliers could hit 30 off 15 at the end of each innings. Just because he might be good at that doesn't mean thats all that he should be doing. We are talking about a young English player with a list A average of 45 with a SR of 120...
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Think thats the general point though. Swing with the two new balls stops after 15 overs-ish in one day cricket. The ball is still hard and flies off the bat, give him a chance to go.
I'm pretty sure DeVilliers could hit 30 off 15 at the end of each innings. Just because he might be good at that doesn't mean thats all that he should be doing. We are talking about a young English player with a list A average of 45 with a SR of 120...
you are comparing AB who is an accomplished test player to Buttler. AB opened the batting in test for christs sake. Ok, so you say the ball won't moved at over 30, umm, did you see him get beaten outside off stump post 30th over, roots dismissal etc?? it nipped away from them. I'm not saying he can't do it, I'm not saying keep him for a slog at teh end but it's too easy to say 'get himin early' then end up watching him fail regularly and then his confidence will be shot
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An apparently word for word quote from Moores "we thought 275 was chasable. But we'll have to check the data"
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An apparently word for word quote from Moores "we thought 275 was chasable. But we'll have to check the data"
if that doesn't get him fired then nothing will!
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Not sure if a complete overhaul is required. Bell, Anderson, etc are some seasoned international who will easily find a place in any team. There are some who need a relook like Balance (utter rubbish number 3). England needs time. It does not look like a clos group of players and this constant change is just going to do more damage. Look at dhawan, maxwell, guptill etc, they have failed consistently in past but the board have persisted with them and they are delivering. Find the talent and nurture them should be the plan going forward.
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Although today also provided yet more evidence of Bell being a serial loser in pressure situations: got a nice 50, just needed to bat normally, screwed it up.
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An apparently word for word quote from Moores "we thought 275 was chasable. But we'll have to check the data"
unbelievable. truly we are in worse trouble than we thought. we do not have a clue-sack every analyst in sight
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you are comparing AB who is an accomplished test player to Buttler. AB opened the batting in test for christs sake. Ok, so you say the ball won't moved at over 30, umm, did you see him get beaten outside off stump post 30th over, roots dismissal etc?? it nipped away from them. I'm not saying he can't do it, I'm not saying keep him for a slog at teh end but it's too easy to say 'get himin early' then end up watching him fail regularly and then his confidence will be shot
I get that, absolutely. I'm not saying about batting him 3 though, I'm saying 5. No point in wasting arguably the only player who would get into most sides down at number 7. He's a batsman, hes not a tailender who can't play a swinging ball. Besides which, there is no reason someone like Stokes/Billings couldn't do his current job in the side batting at 6/7?
Something needs to change.
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Obviously lose Moores and particularly Saker, like the suggestion of Nixon to bring a bit more attitude in. Need a mentor for bowlers rather than a coach I think. Left field suggestion of can we please get Jeremy Snape involved again? Excellent cricket thinker and proven cricket psychologist, which we could do with a bit of.
Team-wise:
1 Roy
2 Hales
3 Root
4 Taylor
5 Stokes
6 Buttler
7 Ali (or controversial alternative Samit Patel?)
8 Woakes
9 Jordan/Wood
10 Topley/Mills
11 Parry
Got to get a left arm seamer in there for limited overs stuff, Topley's stats much better or Mills and just tell him to bowl as quick as possible (worth a look for sure - he'd have been in or around their team for a couple of years already if he was an Aussie). Alternatively (braces for slating) give Dernbach a go again as a specialist death bowler. Not sure I rate Jordan but he has a bit about him so give him a run in the side and see. Broad kept around to be played only when fit and bowling fast.
Vince/Billings/Rashid and the non-first choice seamers to be given regular games when possible to build depth.
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There are some who need a relook like Balance (utter rubbish number 3).
Bit harsh - he would have done better had he played any cricket before the tournament started, which is further evidence of bad planning from Moores.
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Obviously lose Moores and particularly Saker, like the suggestion of Nixon to bring a bit more attitude in. Need a mentor for bowlers rather than a coach I think. Left field suggestion of can we please Got to get a left arm seamer in there for limited overs stuff, Topley's stats much better or Mills and just tell him to bowl as quick as possible (worth a look for sure - he'd have been in or around their team for a couple of years already if he was an Aussie). Alternatively (braces for slating) give Dernbach a go again as a specialist death bowler. Not sure I rate Jordan but he has a bit about him so give him a run in the side and see. Broad kept around to be played only when fit and bowling fast.
Agreed a left armer would be good, though for me Footitt or Willey would be the best bets. No way Dernbach should ever be allowed back into the set up though.
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They just aren't good enough in any department. Couldn't defend 300-odd, let Bangladesh score 50 runs too many for a jittery batting line up.
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Funny that everyone is suddenly a fan of James Taylor.
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I always have been. He holds a List A average of 51 at a SR of 83 with 12 hundreds in 115 innings. Since he came back into the side he is doing well and should have had a couple of hundreds already. He has shown something and is generally a big match player too. Lastly, I think he has some of the best match awareness in playing situations that I've seen in England.
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The root of England's issues this world cup has been down to the senior players not firing properly. Morgan is in awful nick, as is Broad, Anderson's probably bowled 10-15 good overs and Bell's played to his stereotype to an uncanny degree. The other players haven't exactly done well, but you would expect the 4 players mentioned above not only to be getting a lot of our runs and wickets, but also to be leading the team and guiding younger players in tricky situations. They've done none of these things.
Having said that, mindlessly culling them is completely pointless, and breeds a bad atmosphere with everyone feeling like their career could be stopped at any point if someone higher up gives the call. All 4 of these players are top class on their day, but performances have been steadily deteriorating over the last 2-3 years. I'd leave them out of the tour to the west indies in April and get them to join up with their counties for a while but certainly not just forget about them. We need to make it clear that they're not going to be frozen out, and are being left out simply because their form is poor. If they don't improve then we've blooded some youngsters for the future, if they do find some form then we've got a solid core once again.
English cricket is in a dire situation at the moment but snap decisions based on one unexpected loss and a few defeats to very good teams will not solve anything.
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As someone mentioned, the problem is with the way the English players approach the limited overs game. Their approach is outdated. This has come about beacuse of the board's negative attitude towards limited overs cricket. The board needs to embrace the change and try to find a balance. They need to learn from Australia and South Africa who have the same team performing well in Tests and in Limited overs cricket.
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All 4 of these players are top class on their day, but performances have been steadily deteriorating over the last 2-3 years.
exactly, and yet they draw MASSIVE wages or poorer and poorer performances. This is the failing of the Central Contracts, once they are on the gravy train they get greedy, lazy and do not seem to have that same 'fire' in them. Time to cut out the easy money and pay them by performances only. Play well, get money.. play badly or don't get picked.. no money.
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If you look at the packed schedule it lends itself perfectly to a seperate ODI squad and setup:-
April - Windies tour (test only)
May/June - NZ test followed by ODI/T20
July-Sept - Aus test followed by ODI/T20
Oct/Nov - Pakistan away test followed by ODI/T20
Dec-Feb - SA away test followed by ODI/T20
March/April - ICC T20
May onwards - Sri lanka / Pakistan etc
Nobody is going to be able to cope playing all tests and ODI in that period. Makes sense to run two separate teams and two sets of management. Leave Moores, Broad, Anderson, Bell and co to the test matches with a long rest between series and get a new setup in for the ODI squad. Might be contradicting my previous posts but this schedule does scream of two entirely different squads of players being required.
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Very surprised some players like Bell being defended on here. Yes he looks a class act, but 4 hundreds in 160 ODI's says not good enough. Our top players have not stood up and led the team. Also, saying well players from the 90's like Chris Adams failed at test level. Yes but he would have been a good ODI player. If Matthew Maynard was about today he'd be a star in any other country, but still wouldn't get in the England side as is technique wasn't correct enough! Moores said they though England might struggle against the Bangladesh spinners, yet Tredwell not selected! He just hasn't got a clue. He has to go, but we'll hold on and give him another chance. We will lose the Ashes this summer and he'll go then. So save us all heartace of watching the Aussies thrash us and act now and build a better team with a competent manager.
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Agree on Chris Adams - playing for an unfashionable county didn't help either.
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I always have been. He holds a List A average of 51 at a SR of 83 with 12 hundreds in 115 innings. Since he came back into the side he is doing well and should have had a couple of hundreds already. He has shown something and is generally a big match player too. Lastly, I think he has some of the best match awareness in playing situations that I've seen in England.
But aren't some of his new fans the very same people who wouldn't hear for one minute that King Twitter might possibly be a disruptive influence in the England camp?
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But aren't some of his new fans the very same people who wouldn't hear for one minute that King Twitter might possibly be a disruptive influence in the England camp?
Absolutely. I can't speak for others but I am a big fan. Dear old Piers just plays on whatever rhetoric beefs up his profile and gets him soundbites. Its amazing that any story about Arsenal or England cricket ends up with a Piers Morgan quote next to it for no apparent reason.
He has a real temperament and can properly pace an innings. Milks the ball very well (drops and runs well) and bats well with Root when they're both stealing singles.
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1.Hales
2.Roy
3. Taylor
4. Root (C)
5. Buttler (W)
6. Billings
7. Bopara
8. Stokes
9. Woakes
10.Finn/Wood
11. Tredwell
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I do find it interesting that one of the most capped player for England in recent years Bopara hasn't play in any matches yet, whats wrong with Moores selection..
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At the end of the day England have played 1 dimensional cricket regardless of the situation we play the same way, that is lead by management. Regardless of situation the batting line up stays the same and bowlers bowl the same length. There seems to be no allowance for players to change from plan A. I'm not sure there even is a plan B for any situation.
Now we have to change the thought process, for gods sake even club sides change the batting order if in a run chase so the lower order biffer but our international side just don't do it.
In terms of players we simply have to start getting the best out if our up and coming players, I believe NZ are a great example of this. A few years ago there bloodied young players and lost a lot but they lost when it didn't matter by that I mean not a international tournament. So players like Stokes, Billings, Roy, Topley etc need a good run. Morgan is a great one day player so he needs to stay but take captaincy away and let him bat, root looks like the calmest player and is talked up as a test captain so let him learn. And finally for gods sake get our only world class player KP back in the side. I know he has in the last been a muppet but it's clear he was the scape goat for the management when the wheels started to drop.
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Absolutely. I can't speak for others but I am a big fan. Dear old Piers just plays on whatever rhetoric beefs up his profile and gets him soundbites. Its amazing that any story about Arsenal or England cricket ends up with a Piers Morgan quote next to it for no apparent reason.
He has a real temperament and can properly pace an innings. Milks the ball very well (drops and runs well) and bats well with Root when they're both stealing singles.
King Twitter = KP, yes?
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I do find it interesting that one of the most capped player for England in recent years Bopara hasn't play in any matches yet, whats wrong with Moores selection..
I think Ravi is massively talented, but it can hardly be said that he hasn't been given a chance.
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Team KP!!
Also big believer in players who play in the top leagues in the world!
I will throw luke wright in, Similar to other opening 'hitters' who are currently making hay!
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Team KP!!
Also big believer in players who play in the top leagues in the world!
I will throw luke wright in, Similar to other opening 'hitters' who are currently making hay!
The top leagues?
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Namely IPL and big bash.....
Facing best bowlers.....
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Namely IPL and big bash.....
Facing best bowlers.....
Andrew Flintoff?
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Andrew Flintoff?
Yep the one and only bowler in this year's big bash.
He bowled 20 overs for all teams in both innings don't you know.
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Yep the one and only bowler in this year's big bash.
He bowled 20 overs for all teams in both innings don't you know.
That's quite a few more than he bowled for Lancashire.
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Even when we're crap at 50 over cricket, it's because we don't play enough T20. :o
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KP won't play for England again until Moores goes and for that reason alone Moores must be sacked. No coach is bigger than the team. Yes KP has a massive ego but a good coach would manage him and get the most out of the others. That's simply hasn't happened. I'm pretty sure if Giles or Colly was coach then KP would be in the setup.
Where does that leave Downton? On a very slippery slope. He's associated with Moores and the same Team Robot Laptop England that people don't like. His "I'm hugely sorry" video on facebook is going down a storm, most comments telling him to politely get out along with Moores.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152572790135194 (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152572790135194)
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KP won't play for England again until Moores goes and for that reason alone Moores must be sacked. No coach is bigger than the team. Yes KP has a massive ego but a good coach would manage him and get the most out of the others. That's simply hasn't happened. I'm pretty sure if Giles or Colly was coach then KP would be in the setup.
Where does that leave Downton? On a very slippery slope. He's associated with Moores and the same Team Robot Laptop England that people don't like. His "I'm hugely sorry" video on facebook is going down a storm, most comments telling him to politely get out along with Moores.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152572790135194 (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152572790135194)
KP is 35. His ODI average is only marginally better than that of Joe Root - who many here are saying should be dropped. He hasn't played any cricket other than T20 for 14 months.
That's before you taken into consideration the politics and personality issues.
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Funny that everyone is suddenly a fan of James Taylor.
not after that shot today!
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First up, you cannot ask Anderson, Broad etc. to retire. It's not their call whether they are in the England set-up. The selection committee should have the balls to say no, not good enough.
I think they do need to analyse to data from the games but be critical of themselves, their plans and their set up.
Whilst you say there should be three separate squads, there will be cross over between the teams in part.
Certainly should be different selection committees and either coaches or managers.
There should be a plan from now until the next World Cup with an aim to be up the rankings and challenging for the final.
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I listened to Moores interview after the match and he's just a total muppet! He said we had an inexperienced team. Well that's his fault, Hales has hardly played a game in the last 6 months when he should have played every one. He also hasn't picked 2 of his most experienced players all tournament in Bopara and Tredwell. He said that we had lost our regular no.3 in Trott, but this has been the case for sometime. So they needed to pick a replacement and stick with him, rather than kick him out in the first game. He then said we didn't have a left arm fast or spin bowler. Well why didn't he insist on one in his squad rather that 5 medium/fast bowlers. Also if he had a left arm spinner he wouldn't have picked him anyway as our plan was to win with pace. If he keeps his job I'll be cancelling my Sky subscription for this summers Ashes series.
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I guess Australia is the only test nation who went through transition period without any hiccups like this....India went through this, Srilanka would be after this world cup and Pakistan is still going through this. I guess England would be find for the next world cup.
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Start with the administration who've been more worried about profits than performances for too long.
I think Moores is similar to what I used to say about Wenger at arsenal. Either the coach needs to change or we need to change the coach (rather annoyingly neither happened at arsenal).
Then I think they need to start taking ODI cricket seriously. I heard Moores say after the game they'd lost some senior players (trott being mentioned) and that they had tried to blood some youngsters. I found the youngsters a bit odd as hales has been in the ODI team since the end of the summer and Taylor since the tour of Sri lanka properly. With all the build up and planning they had they didn't get players with the ability to play a different brand of cricket than we've always played into the side early enough to get some real experience into the side.
Going forward would like to see people picked on their ODI ability/potential and not by hat they in test cricket. Start taking ODI's seriously and not rest people who should be playing in the side unless absolutely necessary. Get some youngsters in the team and back them, not out them in the team move them around the batting order every game or so, destroy their confidence and then drop them.
The bowling worries me as we don't have a spinner to cause real problems and our pace attack looks to be struggling. Anderson should concentrate on test cricket (be amazed if this isn't announced in the comings few days)
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This made me chuckle
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/ahmedt01/2D858C94-8B27-4564-A456-B0EC72277391.jpg) (http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/ahmedt01/media/2D858C94-8B27-4564-A456-B0EC72277391.jpg.html)
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If he keeps his job I'll be cancelling my Sky subscription for this summers Ashes series.
Sky probably has a lot to answer for. Cancel it anyway?
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Start with the administration who've been more worried about profits than performances for too long.
I think Moores is similar to what I used to say about Wenger at arsenal. Either the coach needs to change or we need to change the coach (rather annoyingly neither happened at arsenal).
Then I think they need to start taking ODI cricket seriously. I heard Moores say after the game they'd lost some senior players (trott being mentioned) and that they had tried to blood some youngsters. I found the youngsters a bit odd as hales has been in the ODI team since the end of the summer and Taylor since the tour of Sri lanka properly. With all the build up and planning they had they didn't get players with the ability to play a different brand of cricket than we've always played into the side early enough to get some real experience into the side.
Going forward would like to see people picked on their ODI ability/potential and not by hat they in test cricket. Start taking ODI's seriously and not rest people who should be playing in the side unless absolutely necessary. Get some youngsters in the team and back them, not out them in the team move them around the batting order every game or so, destroy their confidence and then drop them.
The bowling worries me as we don't have a spinner to cause real problems and our pace attack looks to be struggling. Anderson should concentrate on test cricket (be amazed if this isn't announced in the comings few days)
An excellent post. Thank-you!
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It's been said before but Moores has no international experience to fall back on, that's why he has to rely on stats.
That's why KP didn't respect him. This is what happens when you pick a bargain basement coach from the old boys club. Ecb didn't want to pay for a foreign coach with international experience. Someone like moody would have been perfect.
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Not sure if a complete overhaul is required. Bell, Anderson, etc are some seasoned international who will easily find a place in any team.
If you believe that I fear for your sanity...
Bell wouldn't get into India(World Champs), Australia, New Zealand or South Africa's reserve ODI sides. He's incredibly overrated and one of the main reasons England are struggling.
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If you believe that I fear for your sanity...
Bell wouldn't get into India(World Champs), Australia, New Zealand or South Africa's reserve ODI sides. He's incredibly overrated and one of the main reasons England are struggling.
Bell not better than De Kock? [emoji1]
These are very good players but they are too one-dimensional. There is a lack of variety in the England team.
Take some of the big teams, such as SA.
De Villiers - big hitter, scores all round wicket
Amla - accumulator
Steyn - fast
Morkel - Tall
Each has their own difference.
Look at England.
Ali, Bell, Taylor, Root, Ballance are all similar. Will work the ball, have specific strong shots.
Woakes, Finn, Anderson, Broad - 80-odd mph.
Even the 'spin' option of Tredwell, Ali and Root are all RH offies.
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I'm failing to see what this continual obsession with Quinton de Kock is about...
The kid is going through a rough patch after getting a bad injury, does that mean he's never gonna score runs again?
And if you think Bell(33 years old) would replace de Kock(22 years old) you're sadly mistaken, as if van Wyk wasn't selected no one else is getting close.
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I'd love to see Quinny de Kock find some form in this tournament. Exciting talent. Seems to have trouble getting his feet moving so far.
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Play more draw cricket, that will increase the flare.
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Play more draw cricket, that will increase the flare.
play more slog fests.. that'll increase skill and ability to play test matches.
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Hales
Roy
Taylor (C)
Root
Buttler
Billings
Ali
Rashid
Willey
Woakes
Finn (after David Saker has been taken round the back of the Lords pavilion and shot)
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Hales
Roy
Taylor (C)
Root
Buttler
Billings
Ali
Rashid
Willey
Woakes
Finn (after David Saker has been taken round the back of the Lords pavilion and shot)
this highlights the major problem that England have. Our bowling resources are thin. We have loads of talented batsmen - some who haven't been picked, some who are underperforming and some who have had their talent coached out of them.
But the bowling.
arrgg - who is going to be scared of that attack?
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play more slog fests.. that'll increase skill and ability to play test matches.
Australia & SA have a high mix of test players in their ODI teams, they like to play attacking cricket be it test or one day, hardly sloggers.
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this highlights the major problem that England have. Our bowling resources are thin. We have loads of talented batsmen - some who haven't been picked, some who are underperforming and some who have had their talent coached out of them.
But the bowling.
arrgg - who is going to be scared of that attack?
Who cares? Play to your strengths. You just said we've go loads of talented batsmen. Pick 'em and score 350 every match and play to your strengths. What's the point in picking a thin bowling line up, them getting pumped every game then trying to chase down big targets with effectively six wickets?
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this highlights the major problem that England have. Our bowling resources are thin. We have loads of talented batsmen - some who haven't been picked, some who are underperforming and some who have had their talent coached out of them.
But the bowling.
arrgg - who is going to be scared of that attack?
Does that mean your batters aren't necessarily that talented if they are not facing top class bowlers?
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Does that mean your batters aren't necessarily that talented if they are not facing top class bowlers?
Last night my son asked me what infinity plus 1 was. I told him it was still infinity, but he should discuss it with a math professor.
your question, equally needs to be discussed with someone with more experience than me...
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As much as I'd love to troll Gerry. I de agree with him. De cock is a good talent. And it's only due to his injury plagued build up he's yet to score runs.
Maybe a reason why he shouldn't be picked and should be replaced with another currently(as with ballance)
As in the knock out stages. Losing a wicket cheaply could cost them.
As for bell, well he doesn't keep. A strong string quintet has in his bow.
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Got to be worth giving some of the pace talent a few games to get them involved in the setup - works well for Australia! Look how long Cummins/Hazlewood/Pattinson/Starc have been around their side, all under 25 and all made their international debut by 20. None of them have individually played that many games but look at the amount of bowlers they can call in with confidence and decent international experience. Sensible management, Aus test and limited overs bowling units have effectively been treated as separate for years now and they're reaping the rewards.
Can you see a promising young English pace bowler getting games like this? Only one I can think of is Meaker getting a couple of games a few years ago and then getting dropped because he wasn't that accurate. Newsflash - anyone who is in their early 20s and bowls gas tends not to be super consistent! Got to give them a chance to learn that, gee players up and back them to do what they do best and learn with experience. Sadly this seems to extend to a lot of the counties as well as the national team.
Off the top of my head:
Meaker, Mills, Topley, Overton, Jordan, Woakes, Wood, Dunn. All quick, all young. Managed well, got to be at least a few of them make it as good international bowlers.
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The continuing issue for me is the county structure. Our players aren't good enough because they are playing at a lower level than other countries domestic structures. 18 counties is too many for the talent we have, no matter how much we have. This talent needs to be pushed and weaknesses found out before they reach the England setup. "A" tours are a great help in this regard but they need to be challenged more often.
Those quickies mentioned - imagine having a Topley/Meaker as a pair in each team - do you think Ravi Bops weakness against pace would of been found out before he played several test matches? Or Bairstow and the short ball in his initial tests? Ali, was playing in Div 2 but ought to be able to play a bouncer but now he's getting peppered by Sri Lanka of all people!
My point is County Cricket isn't the finishing school people thought it was for test and more so ODI cricket. The reason why people want our players in the BB and IPL is because the standard is higher (though I'm not sure about some of IPL home grown players) and they will be tested. If this is the case, why not just create the right structure in the UK in the first place.
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Have to agree with the above. Far too many teams playing county cricket reducing the quality. Mind you the ECB will never change the county structure as it will upset the counties and of course the counties won't vote it in. All the ECB care about is profits and increasing ticket prices.
It's interesting that everyone is now saying english players should go to the Ipl, the same lot were saying the Ipl standard is rubbish etc. Now all of a sudden it's the solution. All well and good saying go play in the Ipl, but only buttler is good enough. The rest have no chance particularly given the patchy relationship between the English players and the Indians (apart from KP, bopara and morgan).
The solution is import more players from abroad, it's worked before ;).
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My point is County Cricket isn't the finishing school people thought it was for test and more so ODI cricket. The reason why people want our players in the BB and IPL is because the standard is higher (though I'm not sure about some of IPL home grown players) and they will be tested. If this is the case, why not just create the right structure in the UK in the first place.
County cricket CAN be of an exceptionally high standard - I'd back Yorkshire's First XI from last season against any first class side on the planet and both Durham and Nottinghamshire have had very strong sides in recent seasons - but there are too many teams of a lower standard, especially in division 2, and there is a bigger disconnect between the skill sets used to acheive success in county cricket and those that would work on the international stage than there are in (because they are places that I know enough about) Australia and South Africa.
What does that mean? Well, when it comes down to it, the success of dobbing medium pacers such as David Masters, Ed Giddens, John Lewis, Mike Smith etc who nibble the ball around in the low to mid 70s on fresh decks, rarely brake down but provide a steady supply of accurate fuss free overs. Because the pitches are harder and the number of players/teams proportionately fewer, you don't tend to find these types in other countries. Or in Test cricket...
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County cricket CAN be of an exceptionally high standard - I'd back Yorkshire's First XI from last season against any first class side on the planet and both Durham and Nottinghamshire have had very strong sides in recent seasons - but there are too many teams of a lower standard, especially in division 2, and there is a bigger disconnect between the skill sets used to acheive success in county cricket and those that would work on the international stage than there are in (because they are places that I know enough about) Australia and South Africa.
What does that mean? Well, when it comes down to it, the success of dobbing medium pacers such as David Masters, Ed Giddens, John Lewis, Mike Smith etc who nibble the ball around in the low to mid 70s on fresh decks, rarely brake down but provide a steady supply of accurate fuss free overs. Because the pitches are harder and the number of players/teams proportionately fewer, you don't tend to find these types in other countries. Or in Test cricket...
Totally agree, some of County Cricket is of a high standard. Especially in Div 1. This to me only highlights the issues that were swept under the carpet when we went to 2 Divisions, namely there wasn't enough quality cricket being played. That is still the case today and while I think you will always get clever dobbers on English decks, it is a symptom of the gentle nature of some FC cricket.
I think eventually the ECB/Graves will have to buy counties out or force them to go bankrupt to make changes. By "buying them out" I mean literally paying them not to play and combining them with another county. While the counties may argue they supply players to England and they deserve the handout they get. The ECB can argue they don't need 18 counties to do that thanks very much and we'll support 12. The FC structure drains Ł40m out of the game each year that could be spent on grass roots cricket. Any saving from a more efficient FC structure could do wonders for the game at lower levels as well as giving England better equipped players.
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Can you see a promising young English pace bowler getting games like this? Only one I can think of is Meaker getting a couple of games a few years ago and then getting dropped because he wasn't that accurate. Newsflash - anyone who is in their early 20s and bowls gas tends not to be super consistent! Got to give them a chance to learn that, gee players up and back them to do what they do best and learn with experience. Sadly this seems to extend to a lot of the counties as well as the national team.
Off the top of my head:
Meaker, Mills, Topley, Overton, Jordan, Woakes, Wood, Dunn. All quick, all young. Managed well, got to be at least a few of them make it as good international bowlers.
Someone made the claim elsewhere that England were just going through a personnel slump and that this never happened to Australia. Said person must not remember the problems that the Aussies had when McGrath, Gillespie, Lee, Warne etc were no longer available - yes, there have been some great players found in the last few years, and there is now considerable strength in depth, but that was not always the case...
After all, would anyone argue that Beau Casson, Dan Cullen, Clint McKay, Andrew MacDonald, Peter George, Trent Copeland, Michael Beer, John Hastings, James Hopes, Ashley Noffke, Brett Dorey, Mick Lewis, Ben Laughlin, Shane Harwood were anything other than the chaff sorted through to find gems like Starc, Pattinson, Hazlewood and Cummins?
So, do England have guys with the potential to get up to that level? There is - or rather has been - definitely a fallow period between Anderson/Broad/Bresnan and the youngsters that have not yet reached Test cricket. Australia, for they have become our comparator here, managed to polish Ryan Harris from a 30 year old jobbing quick with serious injury issues into a world class operator and to produce a much better verion of Mitchell Johnson.
So who do England have in the 25-30 age group? Finn has been wrecked, Plunkett is seen as a Test match option. Other than that you're left hoping that someone like Jack Brooks could step up or that common sense will see them give Mark Footitt a chance...or we skip a generation and take a look at the two Overtons, Matt Dunn, Mills, Topley or, just further down the line Matt Fisher, who will be absolute quality...
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I think eventually the ECB/Graves will have to buy counties out or force them to go bankrupt to make changes. By "buying them out" I mean literally paying them not to play and combining them with another county. While the counties may argue they supply players to England and they deserve the handout they get. The ECB can argue they don't need 18 counties to do that thanks very much and we'll support 12. The FC structure drains Ł40m out of the game each year that could be spent on grass roots cricket. Any saving from a more efficient FC structure could do wonders for the game at lower levels as well as giving England better equipped players.
There are a few things that could be considered to raise standards short of mass bankruptcies:
1. The ECB could generate a number of Central Contracts - say nine - financed by the Sky TV money and could be given the right to use them to, in effect, buy players from Second Division sides and move them to the top division. This would allow, for example, the likes of Rees Topley at Essex to be moved to a Division One county to see how he does at the higher level.
2. The ECB could allow D2 counties to hire additional players from Overseas to play first class cricket only - there would be a steady stream of decent South African and Australian state players interested, as well as a number of Test players from places like Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.
3. The first class structure could be redesigned to allow for a regional competition over 3 weeks in early summer to act as Test trials.
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County cricket CAN be of an exceptionally high standard - I'd back Yorkshire's First XI from last season against any first class side on the planet and both Durham and Nottinghamshire have had very strong sides in recent seasons - but there are too many teams of a lower standard, especially in division 2, and there is a bigger disconnect between the skill sets used to acheive success in county cricket and those that would work on the international stage than there are in (because they are places that I know enough about) Australia and South Africa.
What does that mean? Well, when it comes down to it, the success of dobbing medium pacers such as David Masters, Ed Giddens, John Lewis, Mike Smith etc who nibble the ball around in the low to mid 70s on fresh decks, rarely brake down but provide a steady supply of accurate fuss free overs. Because the pitches are harder and the number of players/teams proportionately fewer, you don't tend to find these types in other countries. Or in Test cricket...
I dislike it when these names are trotted out though. The success of Vernon Philander shows that bowlers of 80mph should not just be readily discarded.
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Bowlers like Philander need a certain type of wicket though.
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I dislike it when these names are trotted out though. The success of Vernon Philander shows that bowlers of 80mph should not just be readily discarded.
Philander is a bit quicker than 80 to be fair, and the ones I mentioned were all closer to 70.
In any event, I'm not suggesting that bowlers at or around 80 can't be effective - Shaun Pollock managed it - but that they have to be exceptionally skilled to do that at Test level, and that the issue is more foussed on lack of familiarity with quality fast bowling in division 2.
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121 wickets at 22 suggests not. I'd hardly call South Africa big swinging conditions.
Stuart Clark's 93 wickets at 23 wasn't too shabby either. He barely got above 80.
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I looked at the Derbyshire squad briefly and it had 28 players in 2014. Of which 2 were overseas, 3 over 30 and 9 where 22 or under. Assuming these 22 years olds were starting their careers out of Uni that leaves 14 between 23-30 and probably nearing the peaks of there careers and eligible for an England call up (lets assume England have little interest in very young players/30+ apart from the odd exception). That's just 50% of the squad might have a realistic chance of playing for England through a combination of factors. While it's great that Derbyshire are investing so much in home grown talent, it does highlight some of the issues we face. In one match taken at random, think it was Essex, they have 7 players over 30,overseas or 22 and under. That leaves 4 who might be viewed at England possibilities given good form. Multiply that across the counties and realistically you are looking at 70-80 players who might get picked in total. I'm painting a bleak picture and some counties will have more England prospects, Yorks/Durham to name two. You do need experience from guys in there 30's and overseas players but maybe the crack down on Kolpaks has just led to an increase in youth being thrown in. This leads to a decline in standards that was inevitable for Div 2 in particular as better players migrate to Div 1 (didn't Leics lose 3 players over the winter to Div 1 sides?). FC Cricket is perhaps more of a nursery, than a finishing school.
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Or are you saying that Division 2 is a nursery for division one cricket?
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Leicestershire are worth keeping just for the sheer amount of players they produce that play for England/div1. One simple change I'd make would be to allow 2 overseas players. Only one spot per team, but over the whole championship should make a significant difference.
One thing I think there definitely needs to be more of is Eng v Eng A warmup matches! The only time we've done it the selectors saw the light and in came Kieswetter and Lumb to help us win the t20. Imagine if they'd arranged it before the WC, how differently might things have gone if one or two of Stokes/Roy/Billings/Wood had taken England apart and been asked to step in and play the same in the WC.
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Possibly so - it always used to be the last Test trial before the serious stuff started. I prefer a three or four headed regional series myself - North, Midlands, South-East and South West.
Imagine a game between a North side consisting of Lyth, Lees, Ballance, Stoneman, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Rashid, Plunkett, Brooks and Anderson (Borthwick, Footitt, Wood, Gale and Kerrigan don't even make the side) against a Midlands XI of Hales, Ali, Trott, Bell, Taylor, Samit Patel, Eckersley, Willey, Broad, Wright, Rankin...
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Or are you saying that Division 2 is a nursery for division one cricket?
I guess so if you look at it that way!
Which I suppose highlights the problem. If Div 2, isn't a finishing school for international players then what is it's purpose. For that matter, what's the purpose of those counties. Are they simply a feeder league? There are some good sides that yo-yo between Divisions so it's not black and white. However, those teams at the bottom of Div 2 are now in a constant struggle for money and to compete with the top counties.
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Possibly so - it always used to be the last Test trial before the serious stuff started. I prefer a three or four headed regional series myself - North, Midlands, South-East and South West.
Imagine a game between a North side consisting of Lyth, Lees, Ballance, Stoneman, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Rashid, Plunkett, Brooks and Anderson (Borthwick, Footitt, Wood, Gale and Kerrigan don't even make the side) against a Midlands XI of Hales, Ali, Trott, Bell, Taylor, Samit Patel, Eckersley, Willey, Broad, Wright, Rankin...
That's a great example of the problem. We have plenty of talented cricketers, but not all playing together against a similar standard oppo. You could probably make 6 teams of players worth England looking at, but go much lower and guys ready for international cricket starts to thin out.
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Just a small example of whats wrong with England cricket management.
The Aussies have been talking up their new generation of fast bowlers for years. They broke down fell over got injured. But they were nursed thru it well managed encouraged and are now coming good. We have just as much talent around but what happens.Mills at Essex is constantly criticized for being erratic (id settle for erratic at 95mph) Finn has his confidence and technique torn apart because he bowled the occasional no ball at 93 mph (so what) Overton "o he's not ready yet. Stokes bit of a hot head. When England wanted to get a bowler to give them practice against Johnson they Brought Mills in to bowl at them in the nets. Ummm maybe they should have stuck him in the team if he's that quick Doh! Get these old farts in suits the hell out of the ECB and take away Moores with his clipboard video analysis and hours of colts practice drills. Just look at the ECB web site England practice looks like a chance to fly video. These guys (The Group sic.) are bloody adults you Morons.
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Just a small example of whats wrong with England cricket management.
The Aussies have been talking up their new generation of fast bowlers for years. They broke down fell over got injured. But they were nursed thru it well managed encouraged and are now coming good. We have just as much talent around but what happens.Mills at Essex is constantly criticized for being erratic (id settle for erratic at 95mph) Finn has his confidence and technique torn apart because he bowled the occasional no ball at 93 mph (so what) Overton "o he's not ready yet. Stokes bit of a hot head. When England wanted to get a bowler to give them practice against Johnson they Brought Mills in to bowl at them in the nets. Ummm maybe they should have stuck him in the team if he's that quick Doh! Get these old farts in suits the hell out of the ECB and take away Moores with his clipboard video analysis and hours of colts practice drills. Just look at the ECB web site England practice looks like a chance to fly video. These guys (The Group sic.) are bloody adults you Morons.
I agree, it's very simple to manage England, stick a round peg in a round hole. For the WC you need attacking opening bats pick of Roy, Wright, Hales, Lumb, you need a couple of quicks Mills, Overton etc etc. Let the oppo worry about what these players can do, not us worry about what they can't do. If at the end of the WC we haven't won it at least as a coach you can say I picked the right type of players for the right roles, we just weren't good enough, but we had a good crack at it. Not I've got to check the data, that's just suicide.
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Moores post defeat/elimination sky interview reffered again to 'going back to review the data'. England one day cricket is back where it was somewhere around the mid 1990's..Some of us have seen and heard the same things before, we have made no progress and that's the real sad thing. I would much rather us have a go and if it doesn't work at least some younger guys have got experience and will be better for it.
Downton's interview on the ECB website just shows how deep rooted the problem is.
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Great stats from Andy Bull in the guradian's Spin today...
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/10/the-spin-cricket-england-world-cup-peter-moores-ecb (http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/10/the-spin-cricket-england-world-cup-peter-moores-ecb)
Moores’ record first time around was played 73, won 29, lost 32, drawn 8. Add in his results in the last year (played 36, won 13, lost 21, drawn 2) and you find he now has the worst record of any of the four coaches the team have had, worse even than David Lloyd’s in the days before central contracts. Not only that, Moores’ record is, in fact, worse than those of every other current coach of a Test-playing nation. West Indies haven’t yet appointed a permanent replacement for Ottis Gibson, but the win/loss ratios of the eight remaining coaches range from 2.625 for Darren Lehmann down to 0.795 for Waqar Younis. Moores comes in just a lick below that at 0.792. Right now, “a look at the data”, to borrow the man’s own phrase, shows that judged by his win/loss ratio Moores is both the least successful coach in England’s history and the least successful coach on the international circuit.
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I'm sure they will be able to "take the positives" out of that data
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Great stats from Andy Bull in the guradian's Spin today...
[url]http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/10/the-spin-cricket-england-world-cup-peter-moores-ecb[/url] ([url]http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/10/the-spin-cricket-england-world-cup-peter-moores-ecb[/url])
Moores’ record first time around was played 73, won 29, lost 32, drawn 8. Add in his results in the last year (played 36, won 13, lost 21, drawn 2) and you find he now has the worst record of any of the four coaches the team have had, worse even than David Lloyd’s in the days before central contracts. Not only that, Moores’ record is, in fact, worse than those of every other current coach of a Test-playing nation. West Indies haven’t yet appointed a permanent replacement for Ottis Gibson, but the win/loss ratios of the eight remaining coaches range from 2.625 for Darren Lehmann down to 0.795 for Waqar Younis. Moores comes in just a lick below that at 0.792. Right now, “a look at the data”, to borrow the man’s own phrase, shows that judged by his win/loss ratio Moores is both the least successful coach in England’s history and the least successful coach on the international circuit.
I did wonder when Moores record would be looked at. Let's not forget his numbers have been boosted by playing NZ in transition back in 2008 and a rubbish India last year - at home. He has only played 1 series away from home, losing to Sri Lanka. He also lost in the UK to SA in 2008 and Sri Lanka last year. That's played 5, won 2 lost 3, of which 4 were at home. I don't buy the whole "in transition" thing either. I don't remember the 2008 team being particular weak and last years team was good enough to see off India. Yes we had some new players last year but Moores inflicted that on England as the price for KP being removed. His one day record at county level wasn't great but he was allowed full control of the team. Had a ODI coach been appointed separately I doubt he would even had a look in. The whole KP/Moores re-appointment smacked of panic and Downton should be taking his share of the blame.
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Chaps please, according to the ECB he is the "outstanding coach of his generation"
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It's been 24+ hours now.. Why has there been no sackings??
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It's been 24+ hours now.. Why has there been no sackings??
Downton already said yesterday Moores stays.
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Downton already said yesterday Moores stays.
Would someone like to burn some bails, put them in an urn and... Oh. Wait a minute....
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It's been 24+ hours now.. Why has there been no sackings??
Because we are still in the World Cup. Yes, we cannot qualify but there is still one game to go.
No point sacking anyone or doing any knee-jerk reactions until they are at least back in the UK.
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Because we are still in the World Cup. Yes, we cannot qualify but there is still one game to go.
No point sacking anyone or doing any knee-jerk reactions until they are at least back in the UK.
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I don't think it's knee jerk. Everyone has been calling for Whittiker, Downton and Moores's head for months. Let alone the rest of the coaches etc
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I don't think it's knee jerk. Everyone has been calling for Whittiker, Downton and Moores's head for months. Let alone the rest of the coaches etc
Everyone?
Or just a small number on here?
To sack someone now, would be a knee jerk reaction. We need to look at the data before making a decision like that :-)
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Everyone?
Or just a small number on here?
We need to look at the data before making a decision like that :-)
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most i know outside here are calling for their heads too
touche :)
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most i know outside here are calling for their heads too
touche :)
The ones that I know who are calling for their heads have only started saying that recently. Whilst several in here have said it for a while, most have not and new to the calling of heads.
The failure here and the potential Ashes humiliation might be enough to create change.
Should Moores go, probably. Should he go before the last game. No. No point ruining one last game especially when another defeat might build a stronger case against him. If his team loses to a minnow then he will look worse. His stock will not rise with a victory.
Should the others go? I dunno, I don't really know what they do.
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I think a lot of even moderately cricket people know about (and often dislike) downton for his handling of the KP issue, as regardless of whether you want him in the team, its been a monumental sock up.
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Before any decisions are made, we need to "review the data".
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If you see the stick England cricket are getting on Facebook after every post, you would soon realise that most of the cricketing public aren't very happy with Moore's, downton and co.
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Don't forget the biggest snob of them all Giles Clarke. The old boys club needs to go!
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I would say Mick Newell should replace Moores, as he has an outstanding record over several seasons.
But I'm not sure what kind of family he comes from. ???
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In 160 ODIs, Bell has as many hundreds as Sangakkara does in his last 4 games. Spmething to work on!
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I would say Mick Newell should replace Moores, as he has an outstanding record over several seasons.
But I'm not sure what kind of family he comes from. ???
Another coach without international experience but a good county record, sounds a bit like somebody we know!
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The irony is we have been focusing on ODI cricket since August, I don't think any other full ICC member had that luxury and we still didn't have the right team playing. Which just proves our game is run by bumbling idiots, sack the lot.
id give the new chairman a crack, but then get some quality ex England players in there (to run the England set up) who know what's needed to win at international level not some county run of the mill who have never played in a world cup or succeeded in the heat of a test series with Aus/SA etc. Botham, Hussain, Gower, Willis, Atherton, Flintoff, Swann, Stewart, Butcher Vaughan et al put down your mic's your country needs you!
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While it's a different sport, you think Jose Mourinho/Alex Ferguson/Guus Hiddink have trouble because they didn't have much of a playing career? Cricket would do well to take note, as the managerial style is moving closer to a football model (manager with a team of coaches rather than one coach), player management and motivation is far more important for a head coach than their personal skills. Whether than means Darren Lehmann ex-pro motivational style or Mourinho management style, players who've made it to international level don't need someone endlessly messing with their technique! Let the batting/bowling coaches do that if really necessary (and they should be the ones who must have serious playing experience), coach is there to manage the team in my view. Moores clearly doesn't do that well, which is his problem.
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The irony is we have been focusing on ODI cricket since August, I don't think any other full ICC member had that luxury and we still didn't have the right team playing. Which just proves our game is run by bumbling idiots, sack the lot.
id give the new chairman a crack, but then get some quality ex England players in there (to run the England set up) who know what's needed to win at international level not some county run of the mill who have never played in a world cup or succeeded in the heat of a test series with Aus/SA etc. Botham, Hussain, Gower, Willis, Atherton, Flintoff, Swann, Stewart, Butcher Vaughan et al put down your mic's your country needs you!
None of those have experience in being in good ODI sides, Vaughan can't criticise anyone, his ODI record is disgraceful. Someone like Tom Moody would be a good guy to get in the set up and stop playing rubbish draw cricket.
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Slightly off topic - who else is impressed with Mark Butcher as a TV pundit/analyst? Seems to talk alot of sense, as opposed to the ranting Bob Willis. Can't help thinking that him and the likes of Hughes would make better backroom staff than the present lot. At least they watch cricket and understand how it's played.
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worth listening to the pod cast from the 5Live cricket show last night, it had Butch, Harmi, Ashley Giles and Goochie - they were all excellent.
If it were up to me Nasser, Butch and Harmi would all be involved in the England set up.
I still can't believe that Harmi didn't even get a phone call after his application to be a selector.
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I like Carberry, he talks sense,as does Butch.Interesting contrast with Bob W the other night, Carbs had two earrings, lots of gold round his neck and a cheesecloth shirt open to the navel...
:)
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None of those have experience in being in good ODI sides, Vaughan can't criticise anyone, his ODI record is disgraceful. Someone like Tom Moody would be a good guy to get in the set up and stop playing rubbish draw cricket.
you seriously want an Aussie running the England team? That would complete the humiliation. You obviously dont recall Botham/stewart playing in the 92 WC final. Vaughan taking the Aussies on single handed in 2001\2, i was there for the tour, he was the only player the Aussies respected. I could carry on but my point is that these guys are forward looking, understand what it takes to win at international level. The current incumbents dont.
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Slightly off topic - who else is impressed with Mark Butcher as a TV pundit/analyst? Seems to talk alot of sense, as opposed to the ranting Bob Willis. Can't help thinking that him and the likes of Hughes would make better backroom staff than the present lot. At least they watch cricket and understand how it's played.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/31826306 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/31826306)
He speaks the truth!
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Does it matter what nationality a coach/manager is? In the modern world it's about quality/results. I don't care if England have a whole coaching team of Australians if they are the best coaches/managers. You could have Dizzy, Ponting, brett Lee all coming in and it'd be far better than Ramprakash, moores and co.
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What do you want from a coach?
Well, they have to understand the game. But that's pretty easy.
They have to understand people. That bit is harder - especially when you think that that involves dealing with experienced senior pros and young lads in different but complementary ways. They then have to be able to build a team. They need to be able to guide and develop their players without over-coaching.
And they need to be respected. That could mean that international experience is a pre-requisite (and drop the Mourinho example, the two jobs are completely different)
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Does it matter what nationality a coach/manager is? In the modern world it's about quality/results. I don't care if England have a whole coaching team of Australians if they are the best coaches/managers. You could have Dizzy, Ponting, brett Lee all coming in and it'd be far better than Ramprakash, moores and co.
Bit harsh on Ramps, he's only been the batting coach for 5mins.
Does it matter the nationality....yes an Aussie head coach of England, we may as well wave the white flag.
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For those that havent i'd recommend the 5 live podcast last night that had Giles, Gooch, Butcher and Harmison discussing what to do to fix English ODI cricket.
The discussion got around to having a foreign coach. There was a split between who thought it was a good idea/bad idea. Think it was Gooch and Giles who were saying that coaching England is an honour for any English coach and the pinnacle of their game. It was also discussed that since the IPL coaches can earn $1.5 Million for a few weeks work as a coach and that being England coach isnt the draw to foreign coaches anymore.
hadnt really thought of it like that and you;d think would be a barrier to getting someone highly coveted (believe Kirsten and Fleming have been touted around). Gillespie has said he is concentrating on Yorkshire but wouldnt expect him to say anything else about a job that isnt actually free! I cant really think of many other candidates, give it to Boycott just for the LULZ
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In 160 ODIs, Bell has as many hundreds as Sangakkara does in his last 4 games. Spmething to work on!
Yes a sad reflection of the depths we have sunk to. Bell has been frequently hyped to the heavens as an experienced batsman to build around, compared frequently to Amla, however 4 hundreds from 160 ODIs doesn't compare too favourably with 20 hundreds from 112 so the comparison is pretty laughable. And for those that think Trott's the answer, 4 hundreds from 68 isn't that great.
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I think Butch and Harmy both said that County Cricket isn't fit for purpose as a finishing school for England.
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on the coach I don't care if he is Australian/Pakistani/English/welsh or from China..English coaches(Giles) will say it needs to be an Englishman because there's self-interest. Look around the world game no other Countries bother what nationality is running the team. possibly bar India but even they had Kirsten and less of a success,Chappell.....Duncan Fletcher who is there now is more of a token position granted....
We may say would we really want an Australian coaching us but really....look where we are in this World Cup-so far behind the only team we can beat is Scotland? honestly a bit of pruning aint gong to work, we need the garden turned over.
For what it's worth seeing Collingwood coaching Scotland for me took the biscuit..England don't have a position available for him?? are we sure?
I would like to see Colly,ramprakash,thorpe and a new bowling coach working under the main coach going forward.
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Times reports that Downton has had discussions with Graves and he is safe... (no link cause of stupid paywall I'm afraid)
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Downton also said we shouldnt make any knee jerk decisions.
In other news, turkey votes against christmas.
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Times reports that Downton has had discussions with Graves and he is safe... (no link cause of stupid paywall I'm afraid)
IF Graves doesn't get rid of this mob then he's confirming he is as bad as the rest of them. He signed off on all the crap over the last 12 months anyway so is tainted but not firing Downton, Moores, Whittaker etc is just old boys club.
Graves needs to go if this is true.
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Graves gave Yorkshire the boot up the (No Swearing Please) it needed, hopefully he will do the same with England.
He didn't accept Yorkshire being an average Div 2 team and said he wanted Yorkshire to win the CC in the next 3 years, people laughed at him. He did it.
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Graves gave Yorkshire the boot up the (No Swearing Please) it needed, hopefully he will do the same with England.
He didn't accept Yorkshire being an average Div 2 team and said he wanted Yorkshire to win the CC in the next 3 years, people laughed at him. He did it.
if he keeps Downton, Moores, Whittaker etc then he's lost me before he's started.
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And me. But I'm willing to give him until the end of the world cup to sort things, nothing should happen until they get home.
Can't believe the PR s**t-storm that the ECB have put out in the public domain. From Moores' 'stats-gate' to Downton stating that nobody else could do a better job, looking all the way back to the KP affairs. Incompetent and idiotic.
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if he keeps Downton, Moores, Whittaker etc then he's lost me before he's started.
So unless he gets rid of everyone, no matter the cost or negative impact on the upcoming ashes series and cricket in general he "has lost you"?
Well, you may as well become an Aussie if you are going to hate English cricket so much.
I doubt your opinion, without knowing his long term plan, will make much difference.
Maybe you should give him more than 5 minutes to sort it out.
How about sacking everyone and closing the ECB down? Get rid of professional cricket in England and no longer have an international team?
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So unless he gets rid of everyone, no matter the cost or negative impact on the upcoming ashes series and cricket in general he "has lost you"?
Well, you may as well become an Aussie if you are going to hate English cricket so much.
I doubt your opinion, without knowing his long term plan, will make much difference.
Maybe you should give him more than 5 minutes to sort it out.
How about sacking everyone and closing the ECB down? Get rid of professional cricket in England and no longer have an international team?
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so you support the ECB then? You think those who have done what they have to the English game (pro and amateur) in the last year or two deserve to keep their jobs?? I don't hate english cricket, I want it to be as strong as it can be. I just don't see the point of flogging a dead horse. These guys have proven they aren't up to it so why keep them?
I doubt anyone on here's opinion matters to them in any way.
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I expect Graves will wait until after the ashes to make his move, its much more sensible.
If he appoints "his men" now and we're given a hiding, he'll be under pressure.
If he lets Moores lead us into thw ashes it's win win. Either Moores is crap, and can be sacked giving Graves a powerful position to drive through change blaming the loss of a system he inherited, or we do well, and everything becomes fine again.
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Just on a side note to all those mentioning Harmison, I may be wrong here but I seem to remember rumors going around that he was denied a coaching position at Durham due to a poor attitude towards the game at the end of his career.
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Yes a sad reflection of the depths we have sunk to. Bell has been frequently hyped to the heavens as an experienced batsman to build around, compared frequently to Amla, however 4 hundreds from 160 ODIs doesn't compare too favourably with 20 hundreds from 112 so the comparison is pretty laughable. And for those that think Trott's the answer, 4 hundreds from 68 isn't that great.
I don't get the sunk business, England have never embraced one day cricket.
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you seriously want an Aussie running the England team? That would complete the humiliation. You obviously dont recall Botham/stewart playing in the 92 WC final. Vaughan taking the Aussies on single handed in 2001\2, i was there for the tour, he was the only player the Aussies respected. I could carry on but my point is that these guys are forward looking, understand what it takes to win at international level. The current incumbents dont.
It really doesn't bother me, I am quit happy to see England flounder forever. Vaughan was the epitome of what's wrong with English one day cricket averaged in the 20's with a poor strike rate but thought his test status should see him stay in the side, Botham enjoy's being able to criticise in his commentary rolls too much to take on any coaching, ECB would be very wary of him too.
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I don't get the sunk business, England have never embraced one day cricket.
Agreed, maybe didn't express it very well... My point was that, I'm not usually convined that change for change's sake is a good thing, and not sure that the younger talent pool in the domestic game could do any better than the current lot. However it's now clearer than ever that the experienced core in the current team isn't delivering - Moores' beloved stats should tell him that much - hasn't for a long time and is unlikely to ever again. So we might at least learn something from trying some radical changes.
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Actually Bumble was on a breakfast radio show yesterday saying moores doesn't overly rely on stats which surprised me.
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Great article (in my opinion) here from Ricky Ponting...
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/847795.html (http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/847795.html)
Very interesting to read the second story re; Australia's batting order - great balance of specialist, not 'bits and pieces' players - and their flexibility.
I find being 172-0 against Scotland after 30 overs (the most at the time by any side in the WC) and then a) not sending Buttler in and b) only scoring just over 300 runs absolutely crazy. The fear to play and wherever that pressure is coming from, is scary.
Interesting that Ponting's heard noises from the England players re; the coaching. Exactly the same happened with Moores in 2009. Michael Vaughan's points re; him working with younger players and having a man manager-type coach at the top seems common sense. But there needs to be a comprehensive change top down and in outlook. Too much over-coaching across all sports in England. The skill in coaching should be knowing what to nurture and let develop and what to correct.
There also needs to be more focus on game situations. The FA are heading in this direction, with focus on players expressing themselves and reading game situations. The ECB should look at that. Lots of wickets fell in clusters, which points to cluttered minds and panic collectively. Use data, freedom/expression to play (or 'no fear' cricket), improving technique and game management as equally salient tools, but not with an over-reliance on any one factor...
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I'm currently reading an excellent book - 'soccernomics' that talks about shared knowledge. It essentially goes into why certain nations/clubs are superpowers. It makes some interesting notes about 'Networks' and why it is key to have shared knowledge, and that isolationism never leads to benefits. Just a thought that occurred to me when thinking about foreign coaches.
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one thing that's always bugged me about sport.. Why at int level is there a need to coach at all? surely that should be done by the counties?? Surely England really just want them to turn up and perform
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one thing that's always bugged me about sport.. Why at int level is there a need to coach at all? surely that should be done by the counties?? Surely England really just want them to turn up and perform
Harmison was on about this the other night - he thinks that each player should have their own coach with their county and then have a team manager to help with team tactics etc
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Harmison was on about this the other night - he thinks that each player should have their own coach with their county and then have a team manager to help with team tactics etc
yes. I get the need for analysts, physios etc, but actual coaching?? surely you pick a batsmen or bowler because they are good enough. If they are good enough then just let them perform in teh same mannor they do for their counties. if they need to change things, send them back to their county. Also, reduces the time needed for players to be with the England team, meaning more time with their counties.
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Presumably because players stull get coached even if theyre very good - always fine tuning and keeping bad habits at bay
Top golfers continually get coached, why shouldnt cricketers?
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Presumably because players stull get coached even if theyre very good - always fine tuning and keeping bad habits at bay
Top golfers continually get coached, why shouldnt cricketers?
read it again. didnt say they wouldnt get coaching.. just that they get it at their counties so shouldnt need an eng set up too.. they can turn up, and play rather than have 3-4 weeks pre tours
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Top golfers take their coaches to tournaments with them, are you going to have 14 personal player's coaches hanging around England nets?
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I don't think Harmy could be a coach whilst he's still got a hole in his 'arris.
I feel he struggled with consistancy, homesickness, mental issues, motivation and criticism.
International cricket coaching may not be the best environment for someone with these issues.
.....and whilst we are at it, what qualifies Goughie as coaching material? An advisor perhaps - but a bowling coach?