Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: manno on January 01, 2017, 11:29:57 PM
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Gday all! Ive been looking at getting a few part-mades to have a go at butchering over here in OZ. After reading all of the SAF bats ask a bat-maker threads i quickly realised that most of the meaty questions, asking to share genuine knowledge or bat making technique/process were either not answered or replied with a "send me a pm". The session with the team at Bradbury was much more helpful but i still have a couple more questions. For now at least...
In terms of shaping.
Can i make any shape i please? Am i free to shape up a bat that resembles another existing profile? Probably a stupid question as ive seen on here that bat-makers are happy to "copy" a profile or make a "replica" of a much loved bat. I dunno, i just feel odd about shaping up a bat to replicate another, but at the same time i realise that a lot of bats share a very similar profile, as is the nature of a good simple bat design. What are peoples thoughts on this?
Finishing..... What grade of sandpaper do most here start with and then finish with? And should i apply a wax (what type) and then buff with a loose leaf cotton polishing wheel?
Also, any idea where i could get a horses shin bone?
I hopefully look forward to any replies, not limited to these questions. Feel free to add any other tips or pointers that you think might be helpful!
Cheers
Manny
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Not a bat maker as such but,
Of course you can make any shape you want, if everyone avoided copying other shapes then the industry would never have progressed. If you start claiming it's completely original shape created by you it's different but no issues in copying another shape
Grit of sandpaper depends really how fine a cut your tools take out, I know some bat makers use finishing planes that almost negate the need for sanding at all as they take such a fine cut and then they start with P240 (White willow Cricket) and others (probably the most common) would be around the P80-120 grit mark as their first stage of sanding. Most bat makers will go from there starting grit 120 then 240 then 320 or 400 by hand to finish it off. Some like Salix will do a lot more some may skip anything above 240 all together. A lot use white chalk based polishing compounds such as HYFIN with a double stitched mop, others use beeswax like bat wax and buff by hand with a cloth or a loose leaf wheel. What I've found is if you have a good professional set up with a good mop that has a large surface area, a compound like HYFIN is best, but by the sounds of it for you just making a few a wax product and hand polishing or small mop will work best
As for a horses shin bone, a local butchers is your best bet and you'd have to boil it to clean all excess meat off and then soak it in linseed oil, alternatively any hard wood would work as a bone, Chris King at Gray Nics uses beech as a bone as willow is so soft.
Hope this helps
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Thanks tom! Certainly wont be any claims being made! Sounds like no hard and fast rules when it comes to finishing so i guess i could just finish as fine as i can manage. I do happen to have a decent bench grinder so i could try put on a mop. I'll google that HYFIN stuff, but hows it differ to the bees wax? Also, is it fine to use the bees wax with the mop? And I'll keep the timber "boning" option in mind if i cant find or make a suitable natural bone. Thanks again mate, sure does help!
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The HYFIN stuff is a dry chalk based polishing compound, it needs a mop that will melt it to work a bench grinder or lathe would work with a mop fitted where as beeswax is much easier to use with a basic set up, using a mop with beeswax nothing wrong with it, not essential but no need to have it anywhere near as high rev as you don't want to completely melt the wax instead of buffing it up you want some heat created but not lots.
And no, finishing is very much what is comfortable and works for you. What sander will you be using?
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Ok mate, got ya! Ive only got a small palm sander -
(http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad99/Manno31/AA522054-AF87-4648-A724-342EAB27A181.jpg)
The rest i suppose i do by hand?
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Some great advice there Tom.
Your palm sander should be ok manno just be careful to work your way through several grades of paper to get a smooth finish and not leave any lines in the timber. A random orbital sander is good at this but not essential, your palm sander should work fine just keep it moving over the wood evenly to avoid creating low spots.
Regarding the polishing compound, I use Vonax Beige myself with a couple of G quality mops together (5" total width) on a motor and it gives the bat a nice glossy finish with a slightly coloured finish. I've had a quick look at HYFIN tom and it's listed everywhere as a metal polishing compound? Are you sure it's the same stuff other batmakers use. Not trying to be awkward just genuinely want to know as I've sent H4L a couple of PMs about the stuff they use which I've read Matt mention on here is a white chalk based polish but haven't heard back.
Also, while you might be able to get a horse's shin bone, I believe that makers like Julian Millichamp, Laver and Wood etc that use them soak them in linseed oil for 6 months+ before use so might not be realistic for the amount of work you'll be doing manno.
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Hyfin is indeed correct.
I use it on refurbs
it is a stainless steel polish and is amazing stuff. I was told to use it by Laver& wood and Ulysses. I use it on a car buffer and it works perfect. I find best results if i put the hyfin in the sun about 15-20 mins before my refurb as it goes into the buffing pad a lot better
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It is as @Australian fast bowler said the stuff that Laver use. And I'm sure others use it as well, I've seen fantail cricket in New Zealand use it along with a few others.
If possible you'd be better off with a random orbit sander as it would be easier to avoid small 'pig tail' sanding swirls but it's not essential. Just worth doing a but of hand sanding at the end to make sure these aren't a problem
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Thanks for the tips guys ill keep an eye on those sanding marks. And i might have to amputate now to get that bone ready!!! :) Any idea what the linseed bath might do?
Does the Hyfin impart any colour onto the willow?
Keep the tips/tricks coming guys!!
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Here's my finishing tips Each higher grade grit you use will remove the marks left by the previous grit.
For a nice smooth Finish to Your bat use a specialist finishing paper such as
KLINGSPOR PL 31 P 320 Finishing paper.
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HYFIN won't give any real colour change at all neither will any other chalk based compound. Beeswax might give the bat a lightly coloured look slightly darker than raw white willow but not much
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Jobs a lot easier if you can get a random orbital sander
Shape and profile wise, I try to go off pick up and feel
I'm not a fan of big edges,concaving, or big spines
I'd much rather have the wood spread evenly over the profile, and constantly check pick up and feel.
Keep plenty of wood in the toe to avoid splitting.
The best Saf bats I've seen,(I live about a mile from Andys place) have all been a classic profile.
I know he was a fan of the offset edge too
And Toms bats are probably the best finished bats I've ever seen
Have fun shaping some bats up
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Another thing I'd say regarding the sander, although the palm sander should do fine it will take a fair amount of time, I'm aware it's a festool one so probably better than any orbital I've used at removing wood but still you will need to be very patient
A random orbit sander will remove willow quicker and more efficiently than a normal orbital sander and you will probably find that more grits are readily available for it especially finer grits than a palm sander. They are also normally far cheaper
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I am have purchased most of this gear and everything above is what I arrived at after trial and error.
Went through three types of palm Sanders before finally buying a random orbital sander and it definitely minimizes pigtails. White metal polish is terrific for finishing. I bought most of my gear cheap at bumming and just adapted it to suit as ots jist a hobby and i add as I can. A ozito belt sander/150 mm finder was adapted to fit two 150 mm polishing buff wheels. Works well and I finish the final buff by hand.
Buy bees wax from health food shops that sell honey or bee keepers that sell honey on the side of the road. Handy for tooth cavities until you can get into the dentist im told too.
Another tip I got that is cost effective is using a section of a swimming noodle for hand sanding concaved areas on bats.
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Tennis ball or rubber dog ball also works for concaving
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Great info, just the stuff i was after. Orbital and pool noodle on the list. I like the idea of bees wax because its natural (not sure if the Hyfin is or not?) but ill try both.
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I've just tweaked a bat profile today,(suns out in Oxfordshire and being a true northerner, had to get my shorts on and get out in it)so thought I'd try a bit with the finishing, as Tom criticised my poor finishing at the last Southern net.
Using the random orbital sander gradually going up the grades, means it's easy to get a pretty decent finish, using 240 last.
Then I finished off with 400 then 600 wet an dry,(I'm an engineer, so I have this handy).
Then finished off with a bit of wax
It's easy to get a bit ocd about finishing(Tom)😀but it is very satisfying to see a bat that you've shaped and finished yourself
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I'd like to say it was said in jest 😂 But look forward to seeing it soon mate, was this the one that you took the edge down on?
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Possibly Tom, I've got a couple, so I've just knocked em both down to 2.8 and had a play with the finishing.
I need to try a polishing mop on the random orbital sander, to see if that gets a nicer finish too.
They are my net bats, so I'll let you have a butchers end of Jan
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Possibly Tom, I've got a couple, so I've just knocked em both down to 2.8 and had a play with the finishing.
I need to try a polishing mop on the random orbital sander, to see if that gets a nicer finish too.
They are my net bats, so I'll let you have a butchers end of Jan
They aren't much cop those polishing bonnets for the Random orbit sander. Not from what I've seen of them anyway. They do an okay job, but nothing better than I find you can do by hand in the same time frame
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Everyone to there own methods but Find that wet and dry ( used it for years doing car body repairs ) on wood it creates work as the black grit gets ingrained in the willow
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I've only ever found that if you wet it, if it's used dry I've never had any problems with the black carbide going into the bat. If you are doing it by hand and quite a sweaty person (not saying you are @Seniorplayer just a point) it's probably not advisable
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Great info re finishing thnx. Been looking at different planes to use for any concaving. Not many rounded bottom planes pop up second hand and ive been told i could take a regular wooden smoothing plane and shape the base and blade to suit but i dunno about that. For those that know about these tools, is this the sort of plane that would work? The specs are -
"The radius plane is 130mm long x 55 mm wide x 38mm high. The longitudinal radius is 230mm (9") and across the plane the radius is 75mm (3").
Weighs 0.45 Kg and has a 1/8 " thick x 1 1/2" wide HSS blade hardened to Rc 62.
It has a 55 degrees blade angle and is specifically designed for shaping the seat of a windsor chair, or other tasks that the radius of the sole will suit."
(http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad99/Manno31/18D9F047-2434-4D89-8924-4A3DD284AC02.png)
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I'm not a bat maker but i would have thought that you would only want the radius to be across the blade. The body of the plane in the direction that you are planing should be flat. It looks like the plane that you've pictured is for hollowing out bowls
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Yep. That ones convex length ways as well. So you think maybe not. Will keep looking then. Might end up having a crack at shaping one myself then....
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I know I'm probably on my own here, but I hate concaving, so prefer to take weight off the spine and edges
I want as good a spread of wood right across the hitting area.
Unfortunately with the big edge obsession bat makers have to concave the bats to maintain the edge size
I couldn't give a monkeys about the edges, as long as they are 25mm ish, I can get a good spread of wood from the toe upwards
I also don't like duck bills, as I'm seeing more and more bats breaking in this area
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I don't think you are mate. Personally, i dislike it too. But id rather not limit what i can make by having all the tools i need to shape many different profiles.
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Most actual bat makers don't like big edges and only do them because the mass market 'wants' big edges to crow over.. just look on here when peoooe demand xMM edges.. as you say, screw th edges, give me more in the actual bat please, I don't plan on using the edges !
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Great info re finishing thnx. Been looking at different planes to use for any concaving. Not many rounded bottom planes pop up second hand and ive been told i could take a regular wooden smoothing plane and shape the base and blade to suit but i dunno about that.
([url]http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad99/Manno31/18D9F047-2434-4D89-8924-4A3DD284AC02.png[/url])
Shaping the base of a flat bottom plane is relatively easy to be honest. I got 2 old wooden planes in a local antique shop and did exactly this with one of them. You can simply sand the edges away to the shape you like. You do also need access to a grinder though, to shape the iron. This takes some care, but is definitely do-able.
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Chaps
Converted a bench grinder today, to polish up some bats,(can't actually believe I'm polishing a bat but hey ho)
What sort of mop do I need,as there seems to be loads of different types, and beeswax, or this chalk stuff?
Really don't want to buy loads of different things , would rather use people's favourite?
Any good suppliers who sell mops, products?
Cheers guys
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Chaps
Converted a bench grinder today, to polish up some bats,(can't actually believe I'm polishing a bat but hey ho)
What sort of mop do I need,as there seems to be loads of different types, and beeswax, or this chalk stuff?
Really don't want to buy loads of different things , would rather use people's favourite?
Any good suppliers who sell mops, products?
Cheers guys
Get mine from tool station also screwfix do a mop that fits a 3/8 drill chuck
Or you could buy a bat polishing kit for around £ 20.00 upwards Containing :
Aluminium oxside lapping mop
Firm mop
Buffing compound
Soft mop
Straight Arbor for a 3/8 drill chuck
Abrasive Strips
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Get mine from tool station also screwfix do a mop that fits a 3/8 drill chuck
Or you could buy a bat polishing kit for around £ 20.00 upwards Containing :
Aluminium oxside lapping mop
Firm mop
Buffing compound
Soft mop
Straight Arbor for a 3/8 drill chuck
Abrasive Strips
Where is this available?
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Best place to get your polishing stuff (Mops, arbors, polishing compound etc) is http://www.thepolishingshop.co.uk/ (http://www.thepolishingshop.co.uk/) - Give them a call and speak to them explaining what you need. The man I spoke to was very helpful, knew exactly what I would need as a few forum guys have already bought from them, and it arrived next day I think.
Prices were very reasonable and they seem good quality products.
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Where is this available?
Axminster Tools and Machinery
Tel: 0800 371822
Emaiil : cs@axminster.co.uk
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Thanks @Seniorplayer
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Cheers guys
I'd spotted the polishing shop, but it's a bit confusing as to which mop etc
I'll give em a ring as I'm sure they'll know the best items,
Cheers senior, I'll check them out too
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Cheers guys
I'd spotted the polishing shop, but it's a bit confusing as to which mop etc
I'll give em a ring as I'm sure they'll know the best items,
Cheers senior, I'll check them out too
Just to add as it can be confusing first lapping mop then firm mop finish with soft mop.
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Is anyone who has bought a 'kit' able to post what they ordered/received, save us all phoning the poor guy and asking the same questions.
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If anyone wants a cheap grinder to convert
I got mine from Aldi
35 quid
It was a combination grinder/belt sander
Takes two minutes to remove the grinding wheel, and is a 12mm shaft.