Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: SAF Bats on January 21, 2010, 10:50:58 AM
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As we know there are no national standards for willow grades from the manufactuers
What would be your standard for a Grade 1, Grade 2 and why?
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Are we presuming that we have to buy from a merchant who pre-grades the clefts? Or is it the case that we get to go through a massive pile of clefts and choose them and grade them without any external influence???
Difficult question Andy, your toughest so far i would say - Personally i think it is impossible not to grade partly on cosmetics, this has histroically played an important role on the price of said clefts - in all honesty, the more i think about it the more i tend to agree with wrights grading system as it allows a lot of leeway between what can pass as grade 1 and 2 with regards to cosmetics.
Personally i would suggest a two or three stage grading process - wherein there is room for grade 1's to be downgraded to grade 2's and grade 2's upgraded to grade 1's depending on how the clefts have dried and their responsiveness to the mallet, this is done after the clefts have been graded through cosmetic appearances.
You could give the bat a rating with regard to it's moisture content, responsiveness and cosmetic grading .........and you know what, the more i talk the less sense grading willow makes......like i said, it's a difficult question!!!
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Bythe way - other people please make comments, i'm sure Norb is sick to death of reading my posts - come on guys, make a cider-drinking, finger chopping podshaver happy :)
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I don't feel I'm qualified to grade willow. I want a bat that will score me runs, end of. I guess the cosmetics of it play to my vanity, so I would lean to plentiful clean, straight grains, but I am aware that doesn't necessarily guarantee performance. When I ordered a bat last year I specified how many grains etc. This year, I have ordered a couple of new bats from the same batmaker, and because I trust his judgement, have just told him to make me two great bats, regardless of cosmetics.
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Are we presuming that we have to buy from a merchant who pre-grades the clefts? Or is it the case that we get to go through a massive pile of clefts and choose them and grade them without any external influence???
It is the grading from the Bat Maker not the willow merchant. As we know they all differ slightly but the aim for everyone is 2 fold, provide a great a product [I hope most do try and do this!!!!] and get the most we can from the willow stocks.
Someone's [the customer] grade 1 maybe another guys grade 2, as there are no standard, this applies to the manaufactuers as well, for example a grade 1 from SS may not be a grade 1 from Malik.
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Gosh, think it would be really hard to have an overall grading system, as it would depend on two things I guess, the way the bat looks and feels firstly, i.e. grains, pick up, balance, and secondly the way the bat plays (I think people have sometimes referred to this as the ping!). The problem of course if that what would be a G1 bat in terms of look, feel and playability for me would be very different to someone else due to many factors.
Therefore, I think to be consistent you can only grade on looks as without going into massive amounts of technical details everything else would be quite subjective. Just think it is up to the manufacturer to be clear why he is grading in a certain way, and up to the consumer (us) to question it!
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I think when you first see a bat and it looks perfect you automatically thing its gonna be a gun! So i guess we could compare a bat to a woman . . . bare with me on this.
When you first see a woman you judge her purely on looks right? Sometimes this beautiful woman turns out also to have a great personality so i guess we could classify her as a G1, there are other times when this beautiful woman turns out to be a bit of a d***! So this could be g2/g3 etc. Lastly they are those women who at first you dont think are that good looking and would mark these as a g2/g3 but turn out to be a hell of a laugh and become a g1!
I hope this gives a different way of looking at clefts/bats and also women! haha
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Absolute genius!!!
reminds me of the old saying... doesn't matter how gorgeous she is, some guy somewhere is fed up with her. ;-)
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can you do a kashmir willow to woman conversion for me dan? must must avoid these at all costs....
without a tried and tested method of measuring bat ping then grading via performance will continue to be a grey area, to subjective to create a national standard this way. moisture content can be measured but to do this for each bat is unrealistic. therefore to me it seems the wrights grading system is the best its going to get at the moment and this should be followed.
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Slogger, yeah been through many a kashmir willow cleft! haha! Mainly during my student days at closing time!! haha
Guess im just saying you never know what your gonna get til you have tried it out, and first impressions can be deceptive, but as with anything you get wiser with age/experience but there is always one that can still surprise you
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And other time the woman turns out to look ok - not beautiful but not a hound either -
But no matter how much care you take and how much you nurture her, and how well you treat her, she just never seems to lose that fragile status. And she never seems to perform well either!!!
Then she breask down suddenly not long after you have met her.
So that would be Kashmir Willow! ;D
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Sounds like a bad experience to me pete . . .haha
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Boohoo! Sussed! ;)
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Stick to your bats mate they will never let you down, even though we will blame them for a failure or a rash shot! its the first thing that gets it from me!!
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Plus if you feel the bat lets you down, then you can give the bat a slap without any comeback!!!
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haha true enough pete
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Morning....
Ok lets say hypothectically speaking I grade via a simple test would that be acceptable?
It would be self regulating with spot checks similar to the new Law 6 stuff....
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In my personal experience of the business world people are more interested in results than grades/qualifications. By this I mean if you took two consultants, one who is "qualified" and has all the professional merits (for example, equal to a grade 1 bat as a comparison) and a second person who gets results but no professional qualifications (i.e. a grade 2/3 bat that you see score a big hundred) people would follow/use the 2nd person as they would think it's more effective.
I guess my point is, bats are so subjective and that the difference a grade 1 would make to the avergae player over a grade 2 would be minimal, therefore having specific guidelines are not necessary. If a bat carries a (self regulated) grade 1 label I just don't see it making much actual difference to performance, except in your head.
Therefore sticking with grading on the look of a cleft is the only option that is realistic I think? Although I ntoice on Julian Millichamps site he has a grading system on performance, but again I suspect this is subjective and his opinion (not that I'm doubting him!).
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Which method do you think would provide more 'grade 1' bats- grading cosmetically or by performance?
There are at least certain guidelines for grading cosmetically, but grading by performance is more subjective. Does the batmaker not have an incentive to 'over grade' his bats. (A 'grade 1' bat can command a higher price tag...) My point is, it may be easier to get away with over-grading if you grade by performance.
Savvy bloke, Mr Millichamp...
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The thing about Julians' opinion is that he's going to be pretty much bang on the money when he grades the bat. He'll hit the bat and based on the sound and rebound he gets from his tapping up mallet he grades the bat.
We all do similar rebound tests be that with a mallet or bouncing a ball on the bat. We form our opinion which would generally be the same for a good bat and bad for a bad bat.
Now back to Julian but for everyone and take it one stage further to the manufacturering level. We drop a [predefined] ball from one metre and measure the rebound off of the bat. The height of that rebound determines the Grade of the bat.
Now that said and maybe you think it is a good idea but it isn't, there is an element of trust and consistency involved here. You may bounce the ball at the right spot on the bat, even on a stain and "ping" she bounces high G1++. You may have a bat that will come to life when you knock it in for bit G2 / G3 but you know it will be great.
The thing about this question is that it, as SillyShilly said, almost impossible to answer with a valid scenario as there are counter arguments for all types of grading, other then Julians that is :-)
edit: My opinion is that, if you can, grade on performance but do it honestly, cosmetically it won't be to far out either.
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Would you pay a Merc price if it looked like a Lada or would one take a chance on a Lada ?
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Agree that there are too many variables to establish an industry accepted standard, let alone try to implement, ensure compliance, and regulate. It's a less than perfect system as it stands, but as long as you find a bat maker you can trust, always ask the right questions, tolerate the margins of error, and have a good returns policy if you're not happy with it, then that isn't a bad compromise. The further you move away from bespoke locally supplied custom bats the less control you have on the look and performance of your bat. Those that buy from mass-produced and online have to accept that - you could say it's one of the reasons for the price differential.
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Agree that there are too many variables to establish an industry accepted standard, let alone try to implement, ensure compliance, and regulate. It's a less than perfect system as it stands, but as long as you find a bat maker you can trust, always ask the right questions, tolerate the margins of error, and have a good returns policy if you're not happy with it, then that isn't a bad compromise. The further you move away from bespoke locally supplied custom bats the less control you have on the look and performance of your bat. Those that buy from mass-produced and online have to accept that - you could say it's one of the reasons for the price differential.
Would the same rules apply if someone was to order say 20/30 custom made bats for a retail outlet ?
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Would the same rules apply if someone was to order say 20/30 custom made bats for a retail outlet ?
You tell the retailer, I can grade on performance or I can grade cosmetically it is up to them if they are putting there stickers on your blank bats. If not this is how I grade bats that is how I would like you to sell them
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It would be nice if they graded on PERFORMANCE alone, that makes the most sense for me
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Yes, that way you'd pay for quality ping and performance, rather than pure aesthetics!
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it just isnt going to happen though. tests to determine rebound qualities would take time and therefore money. this test would also have to bought in across the board to ensure all bats undergo the same test, again more money for businesses and someone will have to organise it all! i would fear mysterious upgrading would still occur unless a cricketbatpingometer regulator (like ofcom) was bought in.
individual companies such as screaming cat maybe able to do this but this is through julians expert knowledge and his honesty, nothing scientific.
aesthetics is the only way to do it im afraid....