Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Cricket Training, Fitness and Injuries => Topic started by: Nothing2SeeHere on February 15, 2017, 11:54:55 AM
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I'm trying to learn leg spin.
As a bloke who didn't pick up a cricket ball until my mid-late 30s (and being older now) I don't have the formative years of knowledge to draw on so I have been trying to figure it out as I went along. I'm a kinesthetic learner so I try to work on doing simple movements first every time I practice and use that feeling to self diagnose.
I started practice and managed to get some moderate turn. All good. So I thought I would work on a bit of accuracy. Unfortunately I have managed to modify my action so that the seam is now pointing directly at the wicket every ball (but accuracy is alright). Were I learning off spin, I could use a resource like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A32iTdLGfM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A32iTdLGfM)
and work on getting the release position stored in my muscle memory but I haven't been able to work out a simple exercise that gives good feedback. I have tried a straight arm standing lob but I notice even then that the best I can manage is a 45 degree seam angle (from the wickets) so I assume I need a simpler exercise. Has anyone come across a simple set of drills to build the muscle memory to learn the release?
Ta
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mate, I bowl leg spin and have done for years. Best thing i did for my bowling was read this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Wrist-Spin-Bowling/dp/1861260636 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Wrist-Spin-Bowling/dp/1861260636)
Brilliant book that breaks down each part of the movement and gives you drills to practice them. It's a relatively short book with lots of pictures so it suited me well!
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Quite simply from hand to hand is the best place to start with this and not in a full bowling action at all. Just get your grip right then flick it from one hand to the other getting that seam rotating correctly. In time the rhythm and the strength will come as your wrist gets more educated. Forget variations too and concentrate on that leggie. I recommend going out and buying Peter Philpotts The Art Of Wrist Spin. It covers a lot of the basics extremely well. Learning leg spin is a very very long road. I started when I was 23 and now ten years later I'm still trying to crack it. It's a bit like golf, just when you think you've nailed it something goes wrong. You never stop learning. But it is a hell of a lot of fun, just expect some horror days! You'll have to have a thick skin and really love doing it. Have you consulted all the usual YouTube masterclasses?? Benaud, warne, Jenner etc...?
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@imran75 @GoldenArm - for the mysterious art of left arm wrist spin, do you reckon you could learn from the Philpott book by doing everything in reverse?
ie are the diagrams of grips etc simple enough to follow and mirror?
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@imran75 @GoldenArm - for the mysterious art of left arm wrist spin, do you reckon you could learn from the Philpott book by doing everything in reverse?
ie are the diagrams of grips etc simple enough to follow and mirror?
Absolutely it's exactly the same in every way. Oh and @Nothing2SeeHere forget about accuracy for the next 12 months and just concentrate on spinning the ball, rip it as far as you possibly can. Accuracy comes later. You won't be match ready for ages so just have fun ripping it in the nets. Oh and be yourself, do what comes naturally then you can make changes later. You don't want to groove bad habits but it's all too easy to try and model yourself on someone you watch and it won't work for you. If you feel comfortable whirling in like qadir or mushie then do that. Don't feel you have to amble in like warne. But just for now a slow approach and concentrating on your arm position and wrist position is probably a good place to begin, perhaps even the Jenner prescribed standing start drills with zero run up. You'll eventually become your own bowler with your own style, it's very much trial and error.
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when you see the likes of rashid and other top quality leggies bowling filth you realise it will never be perfect and is bloddy difficult
practice, practice and more practice is the only way
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nW1fRPqsa-A
I ripped this Benaud MCC masterclass off an old VHS ages ago and uploaded them for anyone interested, its good stuff. Although I don't agree with him that the thumb on or off the ball makes no difference, I added my thumb onto the ball in my grip a couple of seasons ago and it improved my control greatly at no sacrifice to spin. If you have massive hands you can probably have the thumb off but I've got little sausage fingers so I need it on!
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@GoldenArm strange, as the reverse is true for me. Took my thumb off the ball and control improved hugely (i don't have massive hands). As you said earlier, it's all about learning the basics and then working out what works best for you.
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@GoldenArm strange, as the reverse is true for me. Took my thumb off the ball and control improved hugely (i don't have massive hands). As you said earlier, it's all about learning the basics and then working out what works best for you.
It still holds true though that one way or the other it was important! Benaud sort of dismisses it as if it doesn't matter when what I think he really means is do whichever you like but one will suit you more than the other.
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Have ordered the Philpott book. Will have a good read.
Thank you for the recommendation.
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Quick update. The book is good! Have made huge leaps of progress. Can recommend though that nobody try learning to leg spin. Its pretty addictive. Every now and then I deliver a fantastic ball that drifts, turns miles on pitching, bouncing into the bushes at the side and a little part of me inside is smoking a cigarette and thinking Feck Yeah! Its a great feeling and I want more and more of it.
I haven't reached the demoralising stage of bowling that peach of a delivery to see it sail back over my head yet as I'm still bowling about 1/20 really great balls and about 2/5 good enough for a match but thats still progress.
On the thumb thing. I find gripping with my thumb helps get the ball more square on which gives more spin and allows me to lift my arm a bit higher (less round arm) which helps with my accuracy immensely. With more experience I may find otherwise.
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Another update. Maybe my experiences will help others also going through the same pain of learning.
Massive changes to my action of late. Was plodding on getting reasonable results when I watched a Shane tutorial. I have watched plenty of people doing the toss the ball from one hand to the other on youtube before but never from the over the shoulder angle. From that it was apparent I was spinning out of the palm of the hand ( I guess like a reverse off spinner?). So last week I spent the evenings modifying my technique. Plenty of changes. I no longer bring the thumb into play. My fore and middle fingers are now splayed further apart (small hands have necessitated I adopt the techniques taught to children) and I also grip less tightly (this took a while to figure out how lightly I could hold the ball).
I have only had one practice session with this new grip but I'm excited by the results. Length is as poor as ever but I can now bowl with a much higher arm which is making a huge difference to overall accuracy and still get good turn (although not consistently getting big turn). Even better, by releasing from the back of the hand I can finally understand how to bowl the wrong'un. So I gave it a go! First ball turned 4-5 inches. Second ball turned well too. Third, fourth and fifth deliveries kind of went straight on but even so I was delighted to bowl deliveries that wouldn't have been classed as wide on my first attempts - and some of them turned.
Still plenty of work to do but I'm still revelling in being at the beginning of the learning curve where every little adjustment brings big rewards.
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Great work mate, ive been known to throw up the odd leggy if needed in a game. As you can tell thr wrong un is relatively easy to turn but even harder to control
Id you keep you arm high you should get the natural drift and dip on the ball, if you need help with accuracy I've used felt on a wicket to help concentration on accuracy
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Thanks for the encouragement. For accuracy I have a couple of sticks marking out a length range and I'm trying to land everything within that range. I need to check out what a good length is for a spinner as I'm currently using a similar length to a slow medium dobber (about 4-5 metres from the stumps).
I acknowledge I'm cheating slightly as to prevent damage to the grounds at the office I'm using windballs which probably grip significantly more but I'm a big believer in positive reinforcement - better to have obvious feedback when making small adjustments (for those learning swing bowling they also turn like a banana when new making learning to swing both ways easy at much lower speeds = less fatigue = more practice time)
I'm probably a good way off a smaller target. I never had better accuracy than about a front car mat sized target in my medium paced dobbers. I'll settle for no wides in an over and work up from there. I have noticed that the change in technique has affected my dobber accuracy. I bowl medium pace chest on but need to follow the side on action for spin to get a better release point
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The second best ever explains it best in my opinion...
https://youtu.be/VRalbzmKIEM
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I've been trying to bowl a wrong un, for over 30yrs, very rare I'm brave enough to bowl it in a game
But it's hugely satisfying to bowl it and take a wicket with it
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The second best ever explains it best in my opinion...
https://youtu.be/VRalbzmKIEM
I remember having a lot of trouble with my line when I started playing cricket a year ago, no matter what I did most of my balls landed outside off stump which is bloody useless when you're turning it away.
I watched that MacGill video you linked to and the bit about the back foot being parallel to the crease made all the difference, it was literally the only change I made to my bowling and suddenly everything was landing on middle, middle and off and forcing the batsman to play. It's crazy how the tiniest changes can make such a massive difference.
I've been trying to bowl a wrong un, for over 30yrs, very rare I'm brave enough to bowl it in a game
But it's hugely satisfying to bowl it and take a wicket with it
I still can't bowl a googly reliably over 22 yards, I tried a couple the last time I played a few weeks back and they just came out as leggies with added top spin. My stock ball has a lot of side spin and not much top-spin so I think I'm better off trying to work out how to bowl a slider.
I've messed about with some left-arm wrist spin into the side netting from ten yards away and I actually find it easier to bowl left-handed than I do with my right hand so who knows, maybe that'll be the way to go :D
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Thats a good video. So much information in there. I'm going to need to watch it several times to get the most out of it.
I have had good mileage from this video of Richie Benaud. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYiA2OJiCpw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYiA2OJiCpw)
Because he's coaching rather than explaining from scratch, I find the tweaks and adjustments to be simpler to follow. E.g. the tip about looking over the front shoulder behind the front arm. MacGill says the same point but he uses the feet to get the body perpindicular. For me, looking over the shoulder is an easier self check ( you can't look over your shoulder unless your back foot is along the line of the crease). Same stuff. Different way of explaining it.
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I've been trying to bowl a wrong un, for over 30yrs, very rare I'm brave enough to bowl it in a game
But it's hugely satisfying to bowl it and take a wicket with it
Better to have a big spinning leggie than bowling a wrong un - take it from me ... I can ONLY bowl googlies. Haha. Grass is always greener...
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I actually find the googly pretty easy, the explain it is hard in words, and ever harder to take a video of it properly without direct feedback but here ot goes.
Take a tennis ball, with you finger pointing up spin the ball from right to left (this is your leg spinner). Take the ball again with your fingers pointing down take the ball from left roll your wrist down and from right to left flick the ball out the side. You should then if you're quick enough see the ball spin the other way.
You can do this sitting down!
Watch this video where he's standing there flicking the ball to him self is similar to what im trying to explain
https://youtu.be/_6ToQ5tfYn8
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It seems like another month, another change to my action.
The grass grew long at my practice spot and was finally mown. With the short grass I have been struggling with the vagaries of getting a decent repeatable delivery. Neither the line, length nor amount of spin I can generate is consistent.
Looking to get something on track I made an impulsive change to my action. I have always been a very front-on bowler and the change to side on accommodate the spin has been a struggle. In experimenting with a front on spin action I have also made a change to my cocked hand position. The many tutorials I have seen have suggested a cocked wrist with the thumb uppermost (sort of like holding a bottle of beer). In order to get a decent action I have made the change to my wrist to rotate it so my thumb is pointing out (palm facing up). This is consistent with my seam bowling position as well.
So far the results are encouraging. I get less massive turn but more consistent movement off the ground. The big addition is also that in piggy backing onto an existing action I pretty much get some control of line and length for free.
I'm not practicing on a flat pitch so its difficult to say how much the massive turners were a symptom of bumps in the grass and how much was the previous technique. I'm tempted to say the the very wide arm turn did help to get the seam perpendicular to the line of direction which would give the most amount of sidewards movement but I'm happy to sacrifice some of this as I believe having an angled forward seam is likely to give better results (can control the amount of dip and amount of movement theoretically.).
What I'm less happy about is that at present it feels like I might not be generating as many revs on the ball. I have no way of really quantifying this though. The Malinga style sling of side on bowling feels like you generate more revs.
I'm going to persevere for another month or so and see what happens.
Pros - immediate accuracy improvement, can bowl a slow seamer as variation ball without massively different initial action, top spinner can be very accurate
Cons - Wrong-un doesn't feel as natural a position but is less obvious, possible reduction in spin levels
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Id love to physically see this. Where are you based?
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I'm near Southampton. I'll chuck a go pro down near me one practice session. I kind of wanted to give it a couple of weeks for things to bed down. It seems at the moment I'm making changes on a monthly basis to try and do things that both seem to work and also feel normal to me.
I'm worried I'm making things sound better than they are a bit here. I'm low down on the skill level and with no cricket experience prior to my mid thirties I'm trying to make the most of things as best as my joints allow. Happily much of my opposition is also happy to help out bowlers with rash shots so it doesn't take a lot of movement to look threatening.
I play at that level of cricket where extras is regularly one of the top scores on the score sheet (I'm fairly certain the bat and pad leg kick/glance is a sneaky innovation by some of the more wily players - I actually saw dead ball correctly called against a player who forgot to pretend to play a stroke to one - boy was he disappointed to have bust a gut to run two from it)
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Haha when we next have a net at eversley youll have to come!
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It seems I only ever post here when I have a good session of progress and that is certainly the case today.
With the wind and rain I haven't had as many practice sessions as I possibly need to improve well but in this I have possibly become a little more results focused. The amount of turn I was generating was inconsistent and I wasn't sure what had changed.
So today with the same old problems I decided to try bowling a few googlies. To my surprise, one of them spun like a leg break. I did a bit of research (spinning the ball at the same point from a drop) and I believe I have figured out my most recent problem.
To get a good level of turn, the seam needs to be spinning perpendicular to the ground. At my current bowling arm speed, the seam is rotating so it is parallel to the ground where the spin is having no effect. I tried a few slower balls and the balls started shooting off sideways. Bowling faster (more arm speed) and again the balls just carried straight on. For giggles I tried a loopy faster delivery to see if I could make one turn the wrong way and whilst I did get something that sort of moved the wrong way I couldn't be sure it wasn't a bump in the ground that I hit on that one particular ball. Would be hilarious if it worked though.
So a great day for me. I'm happy I'm spinning the ball fairly well and now I understand another piece in the puzzle of getting good turn. Even better, I now have an easy variation delivery that would be tricky to spot (bowling a fraction faster). Better yet, I can still carry on with my accurate arm action so I'm one stage closer to being able to try it out in a match.
Plenty of stuff still to improve but I'm finally starting to feel I'll be good to try some out in a match next season.
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It seems I only ever post here when I have a good session of progress and that is certainly the case today.
With the wind and rain I haven't had as many practice sessions as I possibly need to improve well but in this I have possibly become a little more results focused. The amount of turn I was generating was inconsistent and I wasn't sure what had changed.
So today with the same old problems I decided to try bowling a few googlies. To my surprise, one of them spun like a leg break. I did a bit of research (spinning the ball at the same point from a drop) and I believe I have figured out my most recent problem.
To get a good level of turn, the seam needs to be spinning perpendicular to the ground. At my current bowling arm speed, the seam is rotating so it is parallel to the ground where the spin is having no effect. I tried a few slower balls and the balls started shooting off sideways. Bowling faster (more arm speed) and again the balls just carried straight on. For giggles I tried a loopy faster delivery to see if I could make one turn the wrong way and whilst I did get something that sort of moved the wrong way I couldn't be sure it wasn't a bump in the ground that I hit on that one particular ball. Would be hilarious if it worked though.
So a great day for me. I'm happy I'm spinning the ball fairly well and now I understand another piece in the puzzle of getting good turn. Even better, I now have an easy variation delivery that would be tricky to spot (bowling a fraction faster). Better yet, I can still carry on with my accurate arm action so I'm one stage closer to being able to try it out in a match.
Plenty of stuff still to improve but I'm finally starting to feel I'll be good to try some out in a match next season.
Good stuff mate.... But, its actually not your arm speed that is creating the different angles of the seam.. it is the amount of time you are spending on your front foot.. Generally, when one tries to bowl fast, he/she spends less time on the front foot, and the tendency is to rush through the action a bit.. this leads to the shoulders rotating a bit more horizontally, instead of going "up and over". This leads to the seam going a bit like a flying saucer (in off spin, this would be called "undercutting" the ball)..
Seems like when you are "bowling slow", you are pivoting more, and spending more time on your front foot... leading to more vertical shoulder rotation, and that is leading to the correct seam position. If you so desire, I bet you could start bowling FAST leggies, if you focus on getting the extra speed through faster SHOULDER rotation (instead of whipping your arm through quicker).
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Now that is interesting. I'll have to set up a go pro to see if I can see a difference.
I'm not sure I can totally visualise the faster shoulder rotation (in my head I'm imagining an axis through the spine of a bowler and its getting the shoulders turning faster around that axis that is going to give me extra pace. Is that correct?
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@Nothing2SeeHere who do you play for mate?
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So a month later and its all going wrong. Bah!
I have been occupied for a couple of weeks and haven't trained and it seems I have lost everything. Very frustrating. At the beginning of the month I was chatting to the off spinner from another team. He suggested with my action I might try off spin. So I did. And it spun nicely. So, I thought to myself - 'Great. No need to learn the googly. I something that I can work on even if its possible to pick. It should still keep the batsman honest.'
But it seems I have lost all my form and I can't get any turn out of my legspin. I believe I am still spinning as hard as before but everything just goes straight on. I was initially hoping it was down to the conditions (the grass is longer and wetter than before) but my off spin is moving pretty well so I am forced to concede its the technique.
I'm going to keep working on both but it may not be ready for next season after all. :-(
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So a month later and its all going wrong. Bah!
I have been occupied for a couple of weeks and haven't trained and it seems I have lost everything. Very frustrating. At the beginning of the month I was chatting to the off spinner from another team. He suggested with my action I might try off spin. So I did. And it spun nicely. So, I thought to myself - 'Great. No need to learn the googly. I something that I can work on even if its possible to pick. It should still keep the batsman honest.'
But it seems I have lost all my form and I can't get any turn out of my legspin. I believe I am still spinning as hard as before but everything just goes straight on. I was initially hoping it was down to the conditions (the grass is longer and wetter than before) but my off spin is moving pretty well so I am forced to concede its the technique.
I'm going to keep working on both but it may not be ready for next season after all. :-(
Happens to the best - all the best leg spin coaches warn about "losing the leg spinner" if you focus too long on variations. You may be accidentally bowling the slider (seam rotating at 90 degrees instead of 45).. if all else fails, get a 2 colored ball and try recording yourself to see how the ball is coming out.
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So a month later and its all going wrong. Bah!
I have been occupied for a couple of weeks and haven't trained and it seems I have lost everything. Very frustrating. At the beginning of the month I was chatting to the off spinner from another team. He suggested with my action I might try off spin. So I did. And it spun nicely. So, I thought to myself - 'Great. No need to learn the googly. I something that I can work on even if its possible to pick. It should still keep the batsman honest.'
But it seems I have lost all my form and I can't get any turn out of my legspin. I believe I am still spinning as hard as before but everything just goes straight on. I was initially hoping it was down to the conditions (the grass is longer and wetter than before) but my off spin is moving pretty well so I am forced to concede its the technique.
I'm going to keep working on both but it may not be ready for next season after all. :-(
Keep at it mate. I talked myself out of it when my skipper asked me to bowl seam up 2 weeks ago and I bowled that pretty well (normally im a seamer). This week he asked me to revert back... Luckily I was working on it and changed my run up after always firing it down leg and not spinning it even on the driest tracks. And bowled pretty well
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Yep, stick at it. Put the hours in, put as much revs on as you can and you'll be rewarded. Using a red/white ball will help.
Nothing beats drawing people in, then drifting one past leg only for it to nip past their guard and remove their off stump.
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So a month later and its all going wrong. Bah!
I have been occupied for a couple of weeks and haven't trained and it seems I have lost everything. Very frustrating. At the beginning of the month I was chatting to the off spinner from another team. He suggested with my action I might try off spin. So I did. And it spun nicely. So, I thought to myself - 'Great. No need to learn the googly. I something that I can work on even if its possible to pick. It should still keep the batsman honest.'
But it seems I have lost all my form and I can't get any turn out of my legspin. I believe I am still spinning as hard as before but everything just goes straight on. I was initially hoping it was down to the conditions (the grass is longer and wetter than before) but my off spin is moving pretty well so I am forced to concede its the technique.
I'm going to keep working on both but it may not be ready for next season after all. :-(
I'm a fairly decent leg break bowler with 10+ years of experience- the best training aid you can possibly use when you are learning is a ball with red on one side and white on the other. Being able to see the angle of the seam easily helps so much, as you can diagnose so many problems just from seeing how the ball is spinning.
Also you previously mentioned something about the ball coming out the back of your hand- thats one of the biggest misconceptions about leg break bowling and really damages the release. Imagine the ball coming out the side of your hand, not the back- if the ball comes out the back of the hand it is impossible to keep a straight upright seam with the correct grip, whereas with the correct grip, releasing the ball out the side of the hand will present the seam beautifully. If you pm me I'd be happy to watch a couple of vids and give you some pointers.
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<Deep breath>
My name is Simon and I'm <pause for breath> an off spinner. Its been 11 days now since my last big leg break and I have been making do with off breaks to keep my spin fix primed. I really wanted to stay free from the off spin but the easy natural turn has caught my eye.
<and breath out>
So I have been working hard (still) on the leg spin. I need to get me a pot of paint to sort my practice balls out. I desperately want the big turn of the leg spinner but the easy access to off spin is turning my head (so much so I had a go at a doosra - yeah that's pretty much impossible without years of practice). I'll keep practicing through the winter but it does feel like I'm not much closer after a year of practice now. I know I am in reality (I can really rip the ball out of the hand now) but I haven't had that light bulb click of getting the arm and wrist position right often when practicing.
I'd love to get some videos up but at present I feel almost like every delivery is totally different whilst I search for anything that turns. Its a proper retrograde step back at the moment whilst I try and start from scratch again. I think the paint on the practice balls need to be my next step ( I tried permanent marker but it washed off too quickly) as if I can get a consistent release I'll have something to start tweaking.
I still really want to get bowling leg spin so I'm still going to keep working at it - even if I keep up a little off spin practice on the side.
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So I'm back in the game. My problem had a combination of causes but the ultimate symptom was poor wrist position. Essentially - too often my wrist was cocked downwards (towards my forearm) so that when delivered the seam was straight on to my imaginary stumps position.
So what were my causes?
The easiest one to identify was not standing straight during the delivery.
I also initially worked at making my delivery stride more side on so that my arm came around more. This definitely helps but its not something I feel comfortable with at present as the twisting forces through my torso and shoulder feel unbalanced.
Finally - and counter-intuitively - I stopped attempting to 'try and spin the ball'. This requires some explanation and its worth pointing out I'm fully expecting to revisit this as I get the rest of my kinetic chain in alignment. When I bowl off-spin, I get decent turn without actively trying to spin things. Simply by getting the grip correct and the right follow through, the ball seems to just 'flick' off my index finger. If I try harder, I get the sensation of giving it a good rip and it turns more. In other words, I just did what 'felt' like it worked (yes I'm a kinesthetic learner). But when attempting to leg spin, I actively try and perform the wrist action to make the ball spin. My change here was to allow the ball to spin naturally out of the hand. With the right motion, the ball just seems to grip and flick off the ring finger and spin anyway. By stopping trying to spin the ball, I could isolate the wrist into a better position for when the ball was released so the seam was at a better angle.
Now this isn't the end but its a good start as I can see some success here. It is apparent that I'm not getting my maximum spin and I know I'll need this extra spin to get a bit of drift or I'll get smashed around by good batters charging down but thats something I'm going to work up to. For now working on consistent spin with reasonable accuracy (avoiding wides or long hops) is my aim - and it finally feels achievable once again.