Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Bats_Galore on April 20, 2017, 07:44:54 AM
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Reading another thread there is quite a lot of talk of bow or lack of it. It is something that has never bothered me, happy with or without it, frankly if the bat goes that's good enough for me. However with such strength of opinion on the matter, I wonder if I am missing something, so wondered if I could get thoughts from both sides of it, and from makers and players alike.
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ah yes you mean the B3 thread I started
clearly lots on the forum it does not matter. if you look at most, I say most not all, B3 and GM new ones-straight blades pretty much......
I do like a bow in my bats, I don't know why and there's no reason a bowed bat would be better than a straight blade....in fact ive read on here many times a bow weakens the bat, or potentially weakens a bat, so long term you may be better with a straight blade.
ive no idea whether this is accurate or just an opinion. I can see the logic a totally straight blade may last longer than a bowed bat- but is it like that in reality
I've no idea.....gut feeling is it really does not matter as far as a bat playing well or lasting well....
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Always felt that a bow towards the bottom of the bat helps give a lighter pickup than if the bat was unbowed particularly bats with a low middle.
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I find it helps pick up, and it also can help attacking players when going over the top.
All probably placebo.
And that's what matter isn't it? If something feels right to you then stick to it. No point changing to something that feels wrong because others prefer it.
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If you got a bowless bat and used it for long enough and played it in, it should naturally achieve its own bow.
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If you got a bowless bat and used it for long enough and played it in, it should naturally achieve its own bow.
does it Alvaro? really....
ive never seen a non bowed bat develop a bow over the years...
why would it do this out of interest?
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If it's from the ball hitting it consistently I'd only be bowing the edges :D
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does it Alvaro? really....
ive never seen a non bowed bat develop a bow over the years...
why would it do this out of interest?
@procricket has a bat from B3 that developed a bow with use
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love to see it :)
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When defending with an angled bat a bow helps keep the ball further behind the hands... i like that . I also like the assistance in hitting over the top you get from a bow ( call it placebo , but i swap to a straight bat , play the same shot , it feels worse ) . Lastly, pickup with a bow is better . This is subjective but not placebo . Is bow , is good !
Btw , never had any pressing problems on the toe from bowed bats or anything else bat makers say re the adverse effects of prominent bows that are cut into the blade .
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I prefer a subtly bowed bat, but purely for aesthetic reasons rather than any suggestion of performance enhancement. I just think that totally straight bats look a bit old school, bowed bats more modern, more sophisticated. Too much bow looks crap though, so I am a bit choosy about this.
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Not that I play much on the ground but I do find if there is a lot of bow and pitch has decent bounce its harder for my style to not hit the ball in air!! I am ok with bow or no bow, I know what shape and weight i like and haven't really had issues with pickup
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Here are my reasons:
- Pickup feels better
- Lofted shots are easier for a clubbie like myself. I tried playing same shots with flat bats and didn't get the distance I wanted. Once I used a bowed bat, I never looked back as my shots were going over the rope with a lot of ease. Basically, a bowed bat makes it easy for me to score runs.
- More control over defensive shots and keeping ball down.
- Pressing is fine. TK bows his bats. Stuart Kranzbuhler puts huge bows in his bats. Neither of these batmakers complain about pressing issues with bows - anyone who has used bats made by TK & Kranzbuhler would attest to an even press of their bats. They are master batmakers in the truest sense. Simple.
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A bow does nothing a bit of a forward set/ angled handle doesn't so it seems an it of a fashion thing to me but if you like it why not
But not all bat makers comply with your request or know how to do it correctly. My last bat from a bat maker, that remained performance free, couldn't set the "forward set" handle correctly not to mention no bow.
It is not a fashion things, bowed bats are around for a long time. English market has been reluctant to adapt to it as it prefers traditional style bats. They are wildly popular in rest of the cricket playing world.
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last few years a lot ok UK manufacturers have followed the Asian style if that's what you mean Internal, so bats have changed including the big manufacturers quite correct.
In the past large bowed bats were seen a lot in India and Pakistan...maybe because of pitches out there the bounce was less...so maybe a bowed bat helped hit 'over the top'
iv'e always wondered myself have a bow gets into a flat cleft myself. At some point there must be stress put on it. That's presuming( and I don't know this) all clefts start out flat in the first place...
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There seem to be many interesting aspects to this discussion. I don't have any axe to grind as I said I have been equally happy with bowed and unbowed bats, one thing that surprises me is the hitting over the top preference to a bowed bat. To me this doesn't seem to make a lot of sense as the main hitting zone of a bat is the sweet spot, and I have never seen a bat with a sweet spot in the toe, which seems to me to be the part of the bat which comes forward potentially aiding loft. Maybe I am missing something.
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Not really related to the question but more for clarity,
Uneven presses occur when bows are solely pressed into the cleft as more pressure is put on the face and not as much at the toe or handle leading to the uneven press
An even press can still exist when a bow is present if the bow is cut in for the press to follow this means you get a bow but an even press across the whole blade at the same time
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thanks Tom
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The bow doesn't come by cutting nor any makers do that by cutting. The bow is because of pressing. For me personally the bowed bats have done justice compared to old school flat faces - Very good pick up & good balance with inside out shots.
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The bow doesn't come by cutting nor any makers do that by cutting. The bow is because of pressing. For me personally the bowed bats have done justice compared to old school flat faces - Very good pick up & good balance with inside out shots.
There's bat making videos on YouTube by Black Widow cricket who have a jig set up specially for cutting a bow into the face for the press to follow
https://youtu.be/hGcreWUhq28
Approx 2 minutes 30 seconds in
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@tom line
do you have a preference yourself when it comes to bowed bats or flat faces or are you not bothered what you use......just out of interest..... :)
do you think it doesn't really matter and some of us put too much emphasis on the way a bat looks? so for example myself I quite like nice looking bats shape wise not necessarily number of grains
but if it's got a nice curve to me i'd be happier with that..
there's clearly a lot on here thou that think the opposite....or are not bothered either way
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@ppccopener to be honest to me it doesn't matter. I prefer a slight to medium bow if given the option but if it pings I couldn't care less. I am using a Gm and Kook this season both with no real bow but last year used a CA and H4L devil both with bows and I haven't noticed any real difference in them., unfortunately as I use 2,6-2,8 bats the pick up can't really be judged as feather light regardless.
I think bows do demonstrate a skill of the batmaker though and also look a little nicer than a flat bin bowed bat but that's purely aesthetic
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Always found bowed bats to have better pickup. Also personally prefer a bow lower down the bat rather than in middle of bat..
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Don't see a bow being cut in that video @tom line? I've heard of them being cut before but never seen evidence of it. Definitely seen examples of unevenly pressed bats though, I have a massively bowed Puma that when knocking in was so much softer on the toe it was unbelievable.
Prefer a bow myself as it gives a different balance to the bat which I prefer, not hugely though. As for does it pick up lighter/help you play aerial shots more easily - sorry but what a load of bobbins!
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Don't see a bow being cut in that video @tom line? I've heard of them being cut before but never seen evidence of it. Definitely seen examples of unevenly pressed bats though, I have a massively bowed Puma that when knocking in was so much softer on the toe it was unbelievable.
Prefer a bow myself as it gives a different balance to the bat which I prefer, not hugely though. As for does it pick up lighter/help you play aerial shots more easily - sorry but what a load of bobbins!
If you watch it through from about 2 minutes he talks about the jig that is holding the bat taking a scoop out the cleft for the bow which he then later explains is followed by the press, he also shows how the jig is shaped to take the bow out and the log itself has a curve in it that the planer then follows
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I visited Salix a few years ago and AK showed me the jig they use to cut in bows. Said he was the first to do it.
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If you watch it through from about 2 minutes he talks about the jig that is holding the bat taking a scoop out the cleft for the bow which he then later explains is followed by the press, he also shows how the jig is shaped to take the bow out and the log itself has a curve in it that the planer then follows
I'll have another look later, only watched from the 2:30 mark! Seemed a cracking video though, bloke explains well without any sales pitch nonsense.
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https://youtu.be/HHYRFRKjw_M
1 min mark
Completely unrelated but came across this new GM vid too.
https://youtu.be/qaz9IW_2a_o
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Yeah Tom, he 'scoops' it out with his little jig
Never really understood the whole bow thing
I've got bats with and bats without, can't say there's much difference playing wise
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I'm with you Mark not sure really but if batmakers go to an effort of doing it then I assume it must be for a reason.
Although on saying that it could just be like big edges where bat makers had to keep up with it to stay popular the same could have happened with bows
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Why would a bowed blade pick up better?
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Aerodamics the appliance of science
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Not really related to the question but more for clarity,
Uneven presses occur when bows are solely pressed into the cleft as more pressure is put on the face and not as much at the toe or handle leading to the uneven press
An even press can still exist when a bow is present if the bow is cut in for the press to follow this means you get a bow but an even press across the whole blade at the same time
Couldn't disagree more. Uneven pressing can occur when the bow is solely pressed in but it all depends on what the bat maker does or doesn't do to the cleft before hand and how he presses. I solely press the bow into my bats but they are evenly pressed. There are a couple of ways to do this without cutting the bow in. depends on the press you have, the pressing surface and any packing material you use, and at what stage in the manufacturing process you press.
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Couldn't disagree more. Uneven pressing can occur when the bow is solely pressed in but it all depends on what the bat maker does or doesn't do to the cleft before hand and how he presses. I solely press the bow into my bats but they are evenly pressed. There are a couple of ways to do this without cutting the bow in. depends on the press you have, the pressing surface and any packing material you use, and at what stage in the manufacturing process you press.
I have a bowed bat from you (@Red Ink Cricket) and it is evenly pressed.
I have bowed bats from TK and S. Kranzbuhler and they are evenly pressed.
Why do people make such a big fuss about bowed bats and pressing!
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I hope the aerodynamics comment was tongue in cheek :)
Pick your bat up as normal, then rotate the bat so the face is now facing up and see how it feels. That is a very extreme example of the principle which is really just about distribution of weight from the hands when the bat is rotated through a shot or picked up.
As I said earlier the same principle can be achieved with changing handle position in a flat blade or playing around with where the wood is left on the blade. So, a bowed or non bowed bat can feel identical when considering all factors affecting balance.
Saying a bow improves pickup is a bit like saying thick shoulders improve pickup- yes it would help get some weight near the hands but isn't the full story to balance in a bat and doesn't make sense to ignore everything else and just focus on shoulder thickness/ bow/ whatever and assume it is a magic thing required to get an awesome bat. One small bit of an overall picture.
I can see the argument for some manufacturers wanting to stick to flatter blades and getting the balance correct by other means but bows sell bats same as big edges and the myths live on.
Sorry im a sceptic.
I tried this experiment on three bats, two with round handles and one with a semi oval. Other than the semi oval bat feeling odd held the other way it made no difference at all. Two bowed, one flat. Other than changing the angle the bat deflects the ball at I don't see how there is anything a bow provides to pickup. Balance would be worse on shots where face twists off-centre not better. Personal preference until i feel a identical bat with and without a bow.
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Coming to cricket late, played as a kid and restarted a few years back at 38, I have to say as straight as possible, v. v. minimal bow. It is what you get used to and I have found I am too early on cutting with a bowed bat I was bought as a gift. My B3s have a very slight bow - my laver has none - a tennis racket has no bow!
Hand to eye coordination is everything.
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Coming to cricket late, played as a kid and restarted a few years back at 38, I have to say as straight as possible, v. v. minimal bow. It is what you get used to and I have found I am too early on cutting with a bowed bat I was bought as a gift. My B3s have a very slight bow - my laver has none - a tennis racket has no bow!
Hand to eye coordination is everything.
B3 with a slight bow :o Human error perhaps :D
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Modern cricket bats have varying degrees of bow in the blade. The main reason for a bow is to improve the pick-up of bat. A noticeable bow acts as a counter-balance, raising the center of gravity of the cricket bat, thereby assisting pick-up. In other words, a bat with considerable bow and a lower middle can feel the same as a straight blade with a higher middle. It helps with control of strokes, as the players hands are positioned more in front of the ball during contact. It acts like a scoop, to produce more lofted (higher) shots, which do however run the risk of being caught.
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Modern cricket bats have varying degrees of bow in the blade. The main reason for a bow is to improve the pick-up of bat. A noticeable bow acts as a counter-balance, raising the center of gravity of the cricket bat, thereby assisting pick-up. In other words, a bat with considerable bow and a lower middle can feel the same as a straight blade with a higher middle. It helps with control of strokes, as the players hands are positioned more in front of the ball during contact. It acts like a scoop, to produce more lofted (higher) shots, which do however run the risk of being caught.
Welcome to the forum @JonathanH. I hope you truly enjoy reading and participating in the topics discussed. Unfortunately on this topic, I differ in opinion. I cannot see how a bow can raise the centre of gravity if the point of pivot is your hands and the weight is identical to a non bowed bats at all points of the blade length. I know a big bow has never worked for me as far as control. The only thing i see is it is astetically pleasing and helps to loft balls with low bounce. Lots of wife's tales and urban myths surround many aspects of blade shaping. If it works for you and makes you confident than go for it, but not everyone will benefit and it some cases that extra angle can hinder shot control not necessarily improve it. Don't buy a bat based on bow.
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... a tennis racket has no bow!..
Yes, but what things you look for in a tennis racket are not the same as what you look for in a cricket bat..For one, with tennis racket, we needn't worry about pickup as in a cricket bat (unless the cricket bat is feather light), and with cricket bats, obviously the goal is to get as much weight as possible with a good pickup or at least a usable pickup... here bow does seem to be one solution..
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Welcome to the forum @JonathanH. I hope you truly enjoy reading and participating in the topics discussed. Unfortunately on this topic, I differ in opinion. I cannot see how a bow can raise the centre of gravity if the point of pivot is your hands and the weight is identical to a non bowed bats at all points of the blade length.
@sarg. Thank You! I have been playing cricket for a long time, but didn't pay much attention to profile of a cricket bat. Recently, I have started reading more about bats and my conclusion was drawn based on some articles I read about bats. I am still a novice in terms of thinking that goes behind making different bat profiles and hoping to learn from all of you in this blog.
My argument is based on the idea that the COG of a bat is near it's swell position. If a bat maker changes the swell position while increasing the bow, the COG of the bat shifts as well. As a result, the pick up of the bat will change. If you look at bat profiles like GM Paragon and GM Octane, the swell position is different and so is the face curvature. For GM Octane, bow is 2mm and swell position is low. For GM Paragon, bow is 4.5 mm and swell position is high. Again, I may be wrong in my thinking :). Thanks
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I think you are confusing bow and face profile on your GM example...
Oh. I thought face curvature and bow of the bat were same.
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Face curve can be cut or pressed in, that's the playing surface of the bat
Loads of vids on you tube showing this being done.
The bow of the bat is down the length of the blade, as opposed to across the face
Again this can be cut or pressed in
You will hear many many myths etc about what's better etc
Like a lot of things with cricket bats, there's no concrete proof
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Face curve can be cut or pressed in, that's the playing surface of the bat
Loads of vids on you tube showing this being done.
The bow of the bat is down the length of the blade, as opposed to across the face
Again this can be cut or pressed in
You will hear many many myths etc about what's better etc
Like a lot of things with cricket bats, there's no concrete proof
Oh. Thank you for the great information!
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Yes, but what things you look for in a tennis racket are not the same as what you look for in a cricket bat..For one, with tennis racket, we needn't worry about pickup as in a cricket bat (unless the cricket bat is feather light), and with cricket bats, obviously the goal is to get as much weight as possible with a good pickup or at least a usable pickup... here bow does seem to be one solution..
Untrue, the balance of your racquet is just as important, hence manufacturers selling head light, neutral or head heavy models depending on you style of game, the use of tungsten tape (as mentioned in another thread) to adjust the balance further and a lot of players are even fussier over the weights they use than most batsmen dealing to the gram rather than ounce, through in frame length, head shape and beam width and the options for obsessing over are almost endless.
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ive been fiddling around with 2 bats (count em!) this weekend
both 2lb 10 oz in weight
one is a bowed grade 1 uk made(salix)
one is a straight blade grade 2 flat faced bat (GM)
the bowed bat picks up much much better than the flat bladed bat, so much so you would think there were 3-4 oz's in weight difference
I put this down to 3 things myself
1. the grade 1 is a better quality willow
2. the grade 1 has a mid middle, the grade 2 has a mid to low sweet spot.
3. the grade 1 has a slightly thicker handle on it and has 2 grips fitted-the grade 2 thinner handle and one grip.
and lastly......I think the bow help pick up a little bit as well-how much...I don't know.
not scientific at all-just my opinion
:)
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And the grade 1 could be lighter density.
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Pick up can also be down to what end the handle is in, if the density of the cleft is higher towards the handle end it will pick up better than if it's denser at the toe
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And the grade 1 could be lighter density.
if the weights are the same, should the density make a difference in this case?
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Based on on two identical bat I had made one with a lower density if the weights are the same the and handles weigh the same the middle the same shape same etc the low denisty bat pick up is lighter
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Density is a pretty interesting factor in a bat. According to what I have read, high quality willow should have a density between 340-420 kg/m^3. The density relates to edge thickness and spine height of bats as length and width are of standard dimension. I always though more the density, better is the quality of the willow and for a particular mass of the bat, the edge should be just thick enough to ensure density is more. Pressing probably improves density, not sure about it though. But, I never thought it could also relate to bow of bat.
Curious to know, if two bats are of the same weight, same edge thickness, and same handle, will the density change. According to my understanding it should not. Thanks
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Jonathan a natural willow low density cleft wouldn't change but an unnatural over dried one will.
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Aha. That's very interesting. The drying process also plays a role in the density. I think in India clefts are air dried whereas in the UK they are Kiln dried. Do both these methods change the density of cleft in different ways?
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Aha. That's very interesting. The drying process also plays a role in the density. I think in India clefts are air dried whereas in the UK they are Kiln dried. Do both these methods change the density of cleft in different ways?
In the uk clefts are kept off the ground in the open under cover for around 3 months to get the moisture down follow by around 21 days kiln drying to get the cleft moisture down to around a workable Batmaking 10 percent.
As for affecting the cleft many say Asian made bats don't last as long due to drying methods ie extreme heat.