Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Willow and Willow Trees.... => Topic started by: batmatt on March 19, 2018, 07:44:47 AM
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Have many used bats out of Serbian willow lately?
If so what is your opinion?
Will it be a viable option for bat making in the future?
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Have many used bats out of Serbian willow lately?
If so what is your opinion?
Will it be a viable option for bat making in the future?
With demand for willow outstripping supply, I think that all new options will need to be evaluated for the future. But, for players buying bats, how would they know if their chosen one was made from Serbian Willow? I imagine that it won't look much different to English grown, and I doubt that manufacturers will advertise the heritage of the wood. Truth is, many batmakers probably won't even know if their clefts come from Serbia. Personally, I'd be interested to get hold of a couple of Serbian clefts, and experiment. Anyone know where I can source it?
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@JK Lewis - Justin, speak to Hunts mate. They've got a steady supply so should be able to sort you out.
With regards to Serbian willow, I have one in my possession that I've used for a few nets and so far there's literally no difference between it and my English willow bats. The response is just as impressive and no noticeable damage/defects etc.
I haven't sold any through Neon yet, but am considering offering it as a slightly cheaper option for 2019 should the interest be there (I should stress slightly cheaper, as there really isn't much difference in price between Serbian and English).
On that note, if anyone would be interested in a Serbian willow bat then feel free to get in touch and I'll look at the prices etc.
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I've had two Serbian clefts through Hunts and I wouldn't have been able to tell if I didn't know, response on both is excellent. One's very pretty and is on its' way to becoming a lovely bat, the other is less pretty but a monster - it's the one on the right and is currently 2lb11. There's no difference to the usual English to be honest, not that I can tell anyway!
(https://s9.postimg.org/g6mqy2q8f/IMG_20180319_154259.jpg)
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I've had two Serbian clefts through Hunts and I wouldn't have been able to tell if I didn't know, response on both is excellent. One's very pretty and is on its' way to becoming a lovely bat, the other is less pretty but a monster - it's the one on the right and is currently 2lb11. There's no difference to the usual English to be honest, not that I can tell anyway!
(https://s9.postimg.org/g6mqy2q8f/IMG_20180319_154259.jpg)
Nice work Ed! 2.11 and still that much left to carve off. That's going to be a great bat. I'm just finishing a couple myself, gets me motivated for the new season.
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Nice work Ed! 2.11 and still that much left to carve off. That's going to be a great bat. I'm just finishing a couple myself, gets me motivated for the new season.
It was destined for someone else but I'm getting tempted to keep it for myself - it'll be about my weight if I just shape the shoulders and give it a sand! Too right, nothing like getting a bat ready to make you want to get out in the middle is there.
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2.11, very nice profile
I’d be very interested in shaping a Serbian willow cleft too
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I have done quite a few now so far no complaints I do stamp S W on the shoulders of every one I do I think it's certainly a option that some manufacturers may go down if they do I think the customer should be told if it's English Willow or Serbian
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I have done quite a few now so far no complaints I do stamp S W on the shoulders of every one I do I think it's certainly a option that some manufacturers may go down if they do I think the customer should be told if it's English Willow or Serbian
Nice idea GDP1964, very fair. From what I've seen it will be impossible to tell the difference, so I guess each batmaker will make his own mind up. Although, I do wonder if willow suppliers will always be so free with such information, especially as supply of English grown gets tighter...
Which brand are you mate? Always interested to know who's who out there.
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Is there much of a price difference between clefts?
Also love the look of the two bats @JK Lewis
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Is there much of a price difference between clefts?
Also love the look of the two bats @JK Lewis
@Neon Cricket says not, or not much anyway, and he's much closer to it than I. There's little reason it should be much less expensive, I imagine that once it's performance is accepted it will even up with English. Its growing in European conditions, so should be more similar to our willow than, say, Kashmiri.
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@batmatt - as I understand the clefts themselves are slightly cheaper, but once you've factored in all of the import costs of getting the willow to the UK it doesn't leave much of a difference.
As Justin says, now it's starting to be accepted that this source of willow is just as effective as English grown willow I imagine the prices will eventually level out. The growing conditions are indeed very similar hence the performance/durability being so similar. With the growing shortage any new source of willow is good for the industry!
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Is there much of a price difference between clefts?
Also love the look of the two bats @JK Lewis
@batmatt also credit where it's due, those lovely bats are Edge's - far superior to my clunky efforts!
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Nice idea GDP1964, very fair. From what I've seen it will be impossible to tell the difference, so I guess each batmaker will make his own mind up. Although, I do wonder if willow suppliers will always be so free with such information, especially as supply of English grown gets tighter...
Which brand are you mate? Always interested to know who's who out there. B&S
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@batmatt also credit where it's due, those lovely bats are Edge's - far superior to my clunky efforts!
Yes It was meant to refer to edges bats :D
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Are the clefts not roughly half the price of likewise English Willow clefts as stated by hunts at dummer the other week.
I used a Canadian Willow one last year it had size but lacked punch put did tap one of these ups seemed OK.
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The Hunts bat at dummer had everything, grains, massive edges for the weight, great pickup and performance, and grains!
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Are the clefts not roughly half the price of likewise English Willow clefts as stated by hunts at dummer the other week.
I used a Canadian Willow one last year it had size but lacked punch put did tap one of these ups seemed OK.
The raw clefts maybe, but that's not including getting them from Serbia to the UK.
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The raw clefts maybe, but that's not including getting them from Serbia to the UK.
Yes, and it's likely a pricing/volume situation as well.
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The price the rep was chatting about was still roughly half that of English Willow top grade yes they was a chat about volume prices maybe I was mistaken
How much are hunts selling the Kracken I think it was called.
Unless I was misunderstood hunts are the sole distributor for the said willow in the Uk
May have to see my man to test one I did not rate the Canadian stuff but like somebody has already said the bat hunts had was decent
Anybody got one to try
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Hunts make my Serbian Willow Bats out of the Clefts I supply them you can't just buy Grade 1 Clefts you have to buy a percentage through out the grades and as far as I know there are no official Distributors in the UK although Hunts were going to see them they could very well have set up an agreement which if they have very Clever
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Hunts make my Serbian Willow Bats out of the Clefts I supply them you can't just buy Grade 1 Clefts you have to buy a percentage through out the grades and as far as I know there are no official Distributors in the UK although Hunts were going to see them they could very well have set up an agreement which if they have very Clever
i understand how willow is bought mate, yes this was a week or so ago so maybe new news?.
Need to pop back to Hunts at some stage always rated the place and the people shame Tony has gone but i think the new maker is just as good. (long apprentaship mind!!!)
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i understand how willow is bought mate,
I am sure you do did you know that they sell there Grade 1 Willow at the same Price as their Grade 5 ? . Strange but that's how they do it
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Do we know a cleft price from Serbia without freight?
As there is always a cheaper freight option I believe
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appreciate this is a old topic
but need some help
is there any way to determine if a bat has been made using Serbian Willow? or is it impossible to do so?
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appreciate this is a old topic
but need some help
is there any way to determine if a bat has been made using Serbian Willow? or is it impossible to do so?
Yes, post a photo of the grains.
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Some clefts it's obvious, some you'd never tell it apart from English.
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Ask the manufacturer/maker. I'm sure none would pass it off as English Willow knowing it's Serbian! 😆
In fairness I've seen some which looks great in terms of grain structure etc. So not always easy.
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https://instagram.com/cricketbatwillow?igshid=u9zc51f4s8w8 (https://instagram.com/cricketbatwillow?igshid=u9zc51f4s8w8)
I'd say its getting pretty tough to distinguish
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Wow...is all that serbian willow from that instagram account?
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Wow...is all that serbian willow from that instagram account?
Yes it is
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damn!
its impossible to distinguish then judging by that insta page!
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damn!
its impossible to distinguish then judging by that insta page!
Quite easy to distinguish. Buy your bats from a reputable bat maker direct, or a reputable retailer who will guarantee that if you want a bat made from UK grown English Willow, then that is what you'll get 😁
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Quite easy to distinguish. Buy your bats from a reputable bat maker direct, or a reputable retailer who will guarantee that if you want a bat made from UK grown English Willow, then that is what you'll get 😁
Where could we find one of these "reputable bat makers" @jonny77 ;)
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yes but it seems like anyone using is not owning up to using it
and the average joe, wont be able to tell the difference
:(
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Salix Alba grown in Serbia (or somewhere along central Europe) would be different in what manner to grown in England?
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Salix Alba grown in Serbia (or somewhere along central Europe) would be different in what manner to grown in England?
Same deal as with Kashmir Willow - it's the same species of tree, but the growing environment changes things.
I'd happy buy a Serbian Willow bat (my match bat is in fact Serbian), but possibly only at a discount compared to EW. The performance of the two Serbian clefts I've used has been top notch, but they are pretty fragile.
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yes but it seems like anyone using is not owning up to using it
and the average joe, wont be able to tell the difference
:(
Any examples? I'd think any reputable bat maker would be clear if they were knowingly using anything other than UK grown willow
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When you cross reference the address from the place in serbia and see their export history to pakistan some shocking discoveries can be made. A free account on the website pak.eximtradeinfo.com reveals the 5 most recent exports with names such as Aamir sports, Ihsan, MA sports. If you wanna dig deeper into the rabbit hole and get a paid account you can see more earlier results and then names like CA, HS, CX and AS pop up...
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thats good investigative work
and have you checked export history to UK, India? surely not only the Pakistani brands have dabbled in purchasing? :D
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Well the website i came across is only for Pakistan imports. You could dig deeper and try to find their ties with companies frkm other parts of the world.
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@Tom had one for India I think, that’s where all the M&H rumourSS began.
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Quite easy to distinguish. Buy your bats from a reputable bat maker direct, or a reputable retailer who will guarantee that if you want a bat made from UK grown English Willow, then that is what you'll get 😁
Generally speaking I'd agree, although Kookaburra and GN both had junior (and a handful of senior) bats made from what they called 'alternative willow' and 'European willow' a few years ago. The definition in the catalogues was pretty ambiguous and not as clear cut as the difference between English and Kashmir willow for example. For a retailer who perhaps offers multiple sports and doesn't really check (but is still more than reputable) it would have been an easy mistake to have sold these bats as English willow and a customer would be none the wiser.
I think Kook and GN (and anyone else who was at it) have tightened up on this and made things clearer now.
The issues will lie with brands who get bats made (especially if made overseas) by a third party. I am purely using them as an example and not making any accusations or suggestions at all, but lets say SG decide they are going to buy in a load of Serbian willow and replace the lower end of the English willow range without telling anyone, Kookaburra will end up with a load of Serbian bats that they don't know are Serbian.
Knowing how certain parts of the industry work, this isn't beyond the realms of possibility at all. So yes, you could walk into a reputable retailer, ask for a bat from a reputable brand, the retailer and the catalogue both say it is English willow, the brand has sold it at an English willow price to the retailer, and purchased it themselves at an English willow price from the manufacturer. Only the manufacturer knows what it is.
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Generally speaking I'd agree, although Kookaburra and GN both had junior (and a handful of senior) bats made from what they called 'alternative willow' and 'European willow' a few years ago. The definition in the catalogues was pretty ambiguous and not as clear cut as the difference between English and Kashmir willow for example. For a retailer who perhaps offers multiple sports and doesn't really check (but is still more than reputable) it would have been an easy mistake to have sold these bats as English willow and a customer would be none the wiser.
I think Kook and GN (and anyone else who was at it) have tightened up on this and made things clearer now.
The issues will lie with brands who get bats made (especially if made overseas) by a third party. I am purely using them as an example and not making any accusations or suggestions at all, but lets say SG decide they are going to buy in a load of Serbian willow and replace the lower end of the English willow range without telling anyone, Kookaburra will end up with a load of Serbian bats that they don't know are Serbian.
Knowing how certain parts of the industry work, this isn't beyond the realms of possibility at all. So yes, you could walk into a reputable retailer, ask for a bat from a reputable brand, the retailer and the catalogue both say it is English willow, the brand has sold it at an English willow price to the retailer, and purchased it themselves at an English willow price from the manufacturer. Only the manufacturer knows what it is.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Why its so important to support your local batmakers and smaller companies that are transparent
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so in conclusion, anyone could be using it. some knowingly some perhaps unknowingly :( :o
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so in conclusion, anyone could be using it. some knowingly some perhaps unknowingly :( :o
Potentially yes.
At the beginning it seemed to me like Serbian willow would be no different to Canadian willow or the other attempts we've seen over the years. The ones I saw early on were all quite big and light, with erratic grain structure (i.e. two bats at the same price, one could be perfect in terms of grains, the other could be a right mess) and a tendency to not last very long.
BUT, going by the ones I've seen more recently, and the clefts on show on that Instagram page, there seems to be a lot more consistency. Time will tell on whether they last as well as English willow.
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Do any UK makers actively offer Serbian willow bats as an option now?
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Generally speaking I'd agree, although Kookaburra and GN both had junior (and a handful of senior) bats made from what they called 'alternative willow' and 'European willow' a few years ago. The definition in the catalogues was pretty ambiguous and not as clear cut as the difference between English and Kashmir willow for example. For a retailer who perhaps offers multiple sports and doesn't really check (but is still more than reputable) it would have been an easy mistake to have sold these bats as English willow and a customer would be none the wiser.
I think Kook and GN (and anyone else who was at it) have tightened up on this and made things clearer now.
The issues will lie with brands who get bats made (especially if made overseas) by a third party. I am purely using them as an example and not making any accusations or suggestions at all, but lets say SG decide they are going to buy in a load of Serbian willow and replace the lower end of the English willow range without telling anyone, Kookaburra will end up with a load of Serbian bats that they don't know are Serbian.
Knowing how certain parts of the industry work, this isn't beyond the realms of possibility at all. So yes, you could walk into a reputable retailer, ask for a bat from a reputable brand, the retailer and the catalogue both say it is English willow, the brand has sold it at an English willow price to the retailer, and purchased it themselves at an English willow price from the manufacturer. Only the manufacturer knows what it is.
Appreciate that and your knowledge I'd the industry is far greater than mine @KettonJake, but you would hope that anyone making bats for a major brand wouldn't try to pull this off would they? Maybe I'm just being naive, as I expect anyone to treat people with respect and honesty.
Kook and GNs junior bats were still not advertised as English Willow though, which is fair enough imo. Appreciate this can cause confusion, but they're not passing this off as English Willow
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Salix Alba grown in Serbia (or somewhere along central Europe) would be different in what manner to grown in England?
Same as any plant, its health and characteristics will be determined by its habitat and climate.
Cricket bat willow is native to UK so millions of years of evolution (or God if you are religious) have strengthened it genetically to succeed here. I dont know if it is native to Serbia but if the growing conditions can be replicated theres no reason why the end product wont be as good.
Of course this is hard to do with trees.
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When you cross reference the address from the place in serbia and see their export history to pakistan some shocking discoveries can be made. A free account on the website pak.eximtradeinfo.com reveals the 5 most recent exports with names such as Aamir sports, Ihsan, MA sports. If you wanna dig deeper into the rabbit hole and get a paid account you can see more earlier results and then names like CA, HS, CX and AS pop up...
One more reason not to buy from these brands!
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Appreciate that and your knowledge I'd the industry is far greater than mine @KettonJake, but you would hope that anyone making bats for a major brand wouldn't try to pull this off would they? Maybe I'm just being naive, as I expect anyone to treat people with respect and honesty.
Kook and GNs junior bats were still not advertised as English Willow though, which is fair enough imo. Appreciate this can cause confusion, but they're not passing this off as English Willow
My thoughts on how it was marketed during the time I am familiar with (2016ish) is that the Serbian bats were listed in the English willow section in the catalogue, and noted down as just another grade in a particular range. The Kashmir bats had separate sections/models within the catalogue
The trade price list made a slight differentiation, probably just enough to cover them legally, but certainly only just enough to be easily overlooked by a retailer when buying. At trade shows the models weren’t even mentioned, reinforcing the idea that they could be overlooked. To be far to Kookaburra their junior ones were all coated in fake grain sheets initially, but did expose the wood later on.
I’ve not been directly in that part of the industry for a while now, and back then was the very beginnings of Serbian or European willow, so perhaps the brands just didn’t know how to categorise it. Benefit of the doubt given as they have been a lot clearer recently I believe.
But, unfortunately the sub continental manufacturers could easily do what I’ve suggested, and I’d say some of them probably already are.
I must stress that when it comes to manufacturers in India and Pakistan, the guys who are likely to try this sort of thing are in the minority. But ultimately if the difference between Serbian and English proves to be almost undetectable then some of them are going to chance their arm.
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I have seen couple of spartan brand bats made in india with serbian willow. Had narrow grains and once oiled they got darker than regular english willow (not sure if it was just the oil :o )
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Just picked out 3 bats which I believe are Serbian Willow. One thing in common - MASSIVE for their weight. The Malik has 2 grips, 52mm edges and 71mm spine, the Condor with no scuff has 41mm edges and 68mm spine, and the other has 43mm edges and a 65mm spine. Not insanely narrow either, all around the 105-107mm mark. Absolute cannons when tapping the ball up, but feel they'll definitely give the user a good time, but not a long time...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Lsr3s7YQ/20201214-224910.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TyJD7tcn)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zG2ks3Jr/20201214-224926.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0zmmmkMW)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSSX3yYc/20201214-225029.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JGSZGDnH)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pd9BRxTn/20201214-225040.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QB37J2cX)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2Qbvpx6/20201214-225051.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WtbMKcCz)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vv9RpRNG/20201214-225059.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jn5PJyPP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Rhxdg8vJ/20201214-225110.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/njTqz3jn)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NZwtr8r/20201214-225118.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HjZQ1P12)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTR5Pthq/20201214-225130.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8j7LpB1V)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwVn6vxS/20201214-225150.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ppSYzc0T)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXF1pn6J/20201214-225205.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3dNFyQFV)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5DTGKjG/20201214-225359.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5HdBkYWW)
(https://i.postimg.cc/856wBDgV/20201214-225412.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9jph2M6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/13vWyJrb/20201214-225422.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RWn1R18T)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLG26yfL/20201214-225459.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2bx7WzJR)
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8LxYQ6P/20201214-225739.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MfKbbC2c)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGXPR8Qr/20201214-225757.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Yjp3HWGp)
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Sorry if this is the wrong place to post. But, I’ve been interested in buying a Serbian Willow cleft to shape for myself for awhile. Mainly just for personal use and to form my own opinion on as online you see many differing opinions. More so on companies using it without specifying.
If it’s not to much to ask, would anyone know where I could get a part made to have a crack at?
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Inject the 50mm into my veins 🥴🥴
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Sorry if this is the wrong place to post. But, I’ve been interested in buying a cleft to shape for myself for awhile. Mainly just for personal use and to form my own opinion on as online you see many differing opinions. More so on companies using it without specifying.
If it’s not to much to ask, would anyone know where I could get a part made to have a crack at?
H4L
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H4L
Unless I’ve read it wrong, Was he not asking for a Serbian willow part made? Not sure Matt has access to Serbian willow, doubt he has the need for it lol
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Yes, a Serbian Willow cleft. Sorry I didn’t put it in my original post. After re-reading I left my post very vague. My apologies.
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Inject the 50mm into my veins 🥴🥴
Each to their own but I'd rather have a bat without that level of concaving, with smaller edges all day long. Plus the likelihood that it's not been baked to death either so will last longer than a few minutes 😆
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Here's my Serbians, first is my favourite bat which is 2lb10 and won't get even vaguely through a gauge, I pretty much sanded a cleft down:
(https://s15.postimg.cc/5n5t52s5n/IMG_20180531_143059.jpg)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/d352qzaqz/IMG_20180531_143254_01.jpg)
and a more normal size one, 2lb11 short blade with more traditional edges and a convex back:
(https://s7.postimg.cc/4o8l4twgr/IMG_20180423_165906.jpg)
(https://s7.postimg.cc/63a5t6ffv/IMG_20180423_165806.jpg)
Both perform exceptionally well, both need constant repairing! The density is wildly different between the two, both are pretty dry. Would be interesting to know if the Serbs process the clefts differently - what I was told by the supplier I got these clefts off was that there seemed to be no particular correlation between moisture levels and cleft weights with the Serbian clefts they'd had, whereas with the English stuff they generally got lighter the drier they were.
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Your bats look great @edge
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Your bats look great @edge
Thanks mate, always nice to get compliments from fellow forumites!
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Here's my Serbians, first is my favourite bat which is 2lb10 and won't get even vaguely through a gauge, I pretty much sanded a cleft down:
(https://s15.postimg.cc/5n5t52s5n/IMG_20180531_143059.jpg)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/d352qzaqz/IMG_20180531_143254_01.jpg)
and a more normal size one, 2lb11 short blade with more traditional edges and a convex back:
(https://s7.postimg.cc/4o8l4twgr/IMG_20180423_165906.jpg)
(https://s7.postimg.cc/63a5t6ffv/IMG_20180423_165806.jpg)
Both perform exceptionally well, both need constant repairing! The density is wildly different between the two, both are pretty dry. Would be interesting to know if the Serbs process the clefts differently - what I was told by the supplier I got these clefts off was that there seemed to be no particular correlation between moisture levels and cleft weights with the Serbian clefts they'd had, whereas with the English stuff they generally got lighter the drier they were.
Woosh, that first one is an absolute monster for 2lb10!!
Perhaps there is something in the growing that makes these clefts more brittle. I know that willow in UK has a pretty high water requirement, have even read somewhere that winter flooding of the plantation is a good thing. Maybe the Serbian grown stuff isnt exposed to these high water levels and the finished cleft isnt as robust as a result.