Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => World Cricket => England => Topic started by: FattusCattus on April 03, 2018, 08:06:07 AM
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So, what happens now? Are any lessons learnt, are any changes made? we leave the antipodes with more questions than answers and yet again must look to our overseas form and our adaptability.
Suggested issues to be addressed:
Bayliss - is he the real deal and should he be in charge of the test team?
Cook - is he dropped or allowed to finish on his own terms?
Batting - have we ruined our test batters with a glut of T20 and ODI's - and do we care any more?
Spin - Do we have a captain and coach who underestimate the importance of it?
Variety - Are we blinkered into thinking the 90's ideas of 4 right arm medium-quicks is ok? If we can't produce out and out quicks, should we be working on bounce and angle of delivery?
Leadership - Do we have a suitable captain in place and do we get the best out of him as a batter whilst he captains?
I can't put my finger on it, but we lack some input somewhere from a lateral-thinking, recent international player, be that Collingwood, Vaughan, Gillespie, Langer, Smith - someone who can tell it how it is from a playing viewpoint.
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Certainly not the only issues but for me Root lacks charisma as a captain.
Other issues are of course the batsmen don't score enough runs and the bowlers don't get enough wickets. Leach should have played more but I feel that all of the 'best' players have been given an opportunity but none of them have made a telling impact on a consistent basis.
The quality just isn't there at the moment.
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I cannot remember the last England captain who knew how to handle a spinner. Swann was great but I'm inclined to attribute that success to the fact that he was around 29 when he made his test debut so knew his game inside out, the fields that he wanted and he wasn't shy to tell the captain what he wanted.
Every other spinner that comes through is treated exactly the same way. Throw them the ball an over before lunch but the seamers get the ball back from both ends when play resumes. Get a couple of overs in the afternoon session but god forbid they get hit for a boundary because they'll get yanked out of the attack for more boring identikit medium-fast rubbish.
Fast forward to the 4th innings and the spinner is expected to pull miracles out of his backside while the captain panics and starts fiddling with the field or coming over to chat with the spinner twice an over.
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Certainly not the only issues but for me Root lacks charisma as a captain.
Other issues are of course the batsmen don't score enough runs and the bowlers don't get enough wickets. Leach should have played more but I feel that all of the 'best' players have been given an opportunity but none of them have made a telling impact on a consistent basis.
The quality just isn't there at the moment.
I think Root is a great player but unfortunately I don’t think he is a very good captain at all. He didn’t really start attacking and putting pressure on the batsmen till the last 10-15 overs and when he did that they took a wicket... Too late I’m afraid. I don’t think they would replace him as Captain but I certainly think they should... Just let him bat. If Stokes is going to be in the side then bowl him for God’s sake... He is a bloody all rounder... and one of the best...
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I think Root is a great player but unfortunately I don’t think he is a very good captain at all. He didn’t really start attacking and putting pressure on the batsmen till the last 10-15 overs and when he did that they took a wicket... Too late I’m afraid. I don’t think they would replace him as Captain but I certainly think they should... Just let him bat. If Stokes is going to be in the side then bowl him for God’s sake... He is a bloody all rounder... and one of the best...
Stokes didn't bowl much because he's got a dodgy back at the moment and is in the middle of remodelling his action.
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I think Root is a great player but unfortunately I don’t think he is a very good captain at all. He didn’t really start attacking and putting pressure on the batsmen till the last 10-15 overs and when he did that they took a wicket... Too late I’m afraid. I don’t think they would replace him as Captain but I certainly think they should... Just let him bat. If Stokes is going to be in the side then bowl him for God’s sake... He is a bloody all rounder... and one of the best...
Spot on. Root is not a captain he just needs to concentrate on being the best batsman he can be
Jack leach bowled well I thought I would have Anderson as skipper
From there...the rest of the side can be sorted
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Is this another thread where people pluck names from the sky?
Either way I'm delighted James Whitaker is no longer a selector and the others have to reapply for their roles
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I made a note on my phone to save the date (Last year) That Root isn't the man to lead England in tests.
Trouble is, England wont do that. It's almost as if Root needs to bat at 3 and England bring in a number 4 to specifically captain the side. However to be that radical they need to have the b4lls, this won't happen and a very similar test looking side will be announced for the first test of the summer
Why does Root need to bat at 3? Be warned that if you say any variant of "The best batsman bats at #3" I will have to try very hard to not off on a huge rant about how it's complete (No Swearing Please).
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Spot on. Root is not a captain he just needs to concentrate on being the best batsman he can be
Jack leach bowled well I thought I would have Anderson as skipper
From there...the rest of the side can be sorted
I think Anderson’s shot at Captain has passed him by... He is 35... not too many games left in him... Any other options who will be around for a long time to come?
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Why does Root need to bat at 3? Be warned that if you say any variant of "The best batsman bats at #3" I will have to try very hard to not off on a huge rant about how it's complete (No Swearing Please).
For me he isn't the best batsman in the test team, however, I feel he would offer more there than Vince and can't see any other genuine number 3s around. I'd sooner have somebody new in at 4/5
Note, in my opinion our best batsman is Bairstow
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What is a genuine no 3? Isn't it just another opener ready to go in an shore things up if you lose an early wicket? I think the top 5 should really be fairly interchangeable. People get a bit caught up in the fact that 'I've always batted no. 2' mentality. At the end of the day if your a good player you should be able to bat effectively anywhere in the top order.
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What is a genuine no 3? Isn't it just another opener ready to go in an shore things up if you lose an early wicket? I think the top 5 should really be fairly interchangeable. People get a bit caught up in the fact that 'I've always batted no. 2' mentality. At the end of the day if your a good player you should be able to bat effectively anywhere in the top order.
For me I look at people like Ponting, Trott, Sanga those people were genuine number 3's, in my opinion
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Throwing my 10p in, I'd personally put malan up at 3, not had a great NZ tour but who did from those that went home and returned. I like his grit and determination and was possibly the best batsman on show in OZ which I certainly didn't expect.
I also think Vince is worth another shot but swap him and malan around, maybe odd but hear me out. When I watch him I think of Bell, lovely, flamboyant player to watch bat when in full flow, protect him a bit more against a moving ball and he'll be a good batter capable of scoring heavily.
I agree with most, Root doesn't appear best fit for a captain to me, his persona appears to me that he's slightly friendly with everyone, that could mean that he may not want to upset people, he's a likeable character, let him be the batter everyone knows he's capable of and play his jokes in the changing room which may relax him more and allow him to forget the pressure of professional sport. I'm probably way off the mark with that analysis, as you don't see everything but its my perception from snippets you do see.
My captain? Bairstow, he speaks so well about the game in detail, comes across as a great thinker of the game, but is keeping, batting and being a skipper too much, probably and I wouldn't take the gloves off him thats for sure.
Another failing imo is England's naivety towards spin. They have a batting coach, fast bowling coach, fielding coach, head coach, any other coach/specialist on every tour, why not a spin bowling one? At the minute they have a consultant, what use is a person that they can only use x number of days per year, when most of which become used whenever an asian side tour. take Ali for eg, he may well not be good enough to be Englands no 1 spinner, but how can he develop/improve or just get out of a rut when there isn't a specialist there that he can talk to get ideas from?
But I think the biggest downfall is the neglect that England pay to test cricket away from home, they play barely any tour matches any more to help them prepare or go out in time to get used to conditions, instead they play more ODI's and T20 because of money, understandable it is a business, but doesn't help the players.
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Bring back Mike Brearley.
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The new selector should be allowed a blank sheet of paper. I also think Bayliss should be stepped down and Farbrace should be the test coach.
After that Strauss, the coach and the new selector need to agree who the right guy is to captain the side and then build up from there.
I am against throwing names of players around as there are many ways to skin that cat, but as far as I am concerned all the players, including Root should be told to go away and win your place back.
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He was a disaster of a head coach but Moores pretty much picked/spotted every player that's been picked and been any sort of a success in recent memory didn't he, surely that's enough of a case for him to be involved in selection somewhere.
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Don’t be ridiculous @Kulli You are speaking too much sense
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After oz sinking to its current depths and england unable to win all winter I believe it is time for Australia to reverse its federation status and properly rejoin the motherland in the best interests of anglo-antipodean cricket .
If you guys knock this back , then my next step is to propose Australia invite new zealands north and south islands to become 2 new states of Australia ( there's actually a provision for this in our Constitution ) ....long live New Strayaland !!!!! :D :D
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Can we just adopt NZ players like England do with SA?
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Can we just adopt NZ players like England do with SA?
Looking at the NZ team for the last test I was surprised how many of their players aren't from new Zealand.
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Can we just adopt NZ players like England do with SA?
We could do this underhandedly - we rope in nz into the Sheffield shield via $$$$ . Then get nz players into oz based teams . Finally we make the comp go for 6/8 months ...however long a person needs to stay in the country every year to qualify to play as a naturalized player, then sign them up to a big $ central contract .
Mwahaha .
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Plenty to play for at the start of the championship season, maybe even some actual places in the team up for grabs with new selectors!
We need a top 3, anybody's guess what that could look like come this time next year. Probably too much to hope for but if there is early change then hopefully someone in form gets picked and backed.
Bowling, we need a third seamer. Doesn't matter how quick they are or what hand they bowl with, but does matter that they need to be good with the old ball and when it's not moving. Swing bowlers coming out of our ears but what we really miss is a guy you can turn to to make something happen on a flat one after 60-70 overs. Shouldn't be too hard to find :D
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“ My captain? Bairstow, he speaks so well about the game in detail, comes across as a great thinker of the game, but is keeping, batting and being a skipper too much, probably and I wouldn't take the gloves off him thats for sure “
@mattdawson I agree with this.
Listening to a few of his post match interviews he comes across very well. I also feel that a lot of the other members of the squad look up to him and have a lot of respect for him.
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The new selector should be allowed a blank sheet of paper. I also think Bayliss should be stepped down and Farbrace should be the test coach.
After that Strauss, the coach and the new selector need to agree who the right guy is to captain the side and then build up from there.
I am against throwing names of players around as there are many ways to skin that cat, but as far as I am concerned all the players, including Root should be told to go away and win your place back.
Well see link below no sure about being told to win your place back but everyone who is not playing IPL is going back to county cricket to play at least 3 matches (out of the 5 before the 1st summer test) apart from Root and Bairstow (who are playing 2)
http://www.thecricketer.com/Topics/domestic_county_championship/england_players_made_available_for_county_championship_matches.html (http://www.thecricketer.com/Topics/domestic_county_championship/england_players_made_available_for_county_championship_matches.html)
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What is a genuine no 3? Isn't it just another opener ready to go in an shore things up if you lose an early wicket? I think the top 5 should really be fairly interchangeable. People get a bit caught up in the fact that 'I've always batted no. 2' mentality. At the end of the day if your a good player you should be able to bat effectively anywhere in the top order.
And yet you’re wrong. Opening and 3 in draw Cricket (tests) are specialist positions. Openers are able to deal with the moving ball, leave well, select the right shots consistently and able to bat for long periods consistently. A three is someone who can do this and push on a bit (aka, generally better than your openers as they can do that just as well AND play a more expansive game.
Root sadly as much as people here don’t like to admit it, is very very poor vs the moving ball (he’s consistently found out by it).yet, when the ball is older and you’re looking for ‘busy’ players to tick over at 4+ with little risk.. he’s your man.. making him actually a dam good 4/5
We can keep pretending Bairstow (another good 5/6) and root will solve the top order issues or we can be honest and admit that our systems and formats are simply not producing the types of players required.
Hameed was literally the only opener since cook to surface and the coaches ruined him with their demand for more shots and attacking play.. now he keeps getting out. Australia have done the same to renshaw.. he scores runs in shield because it’s crap but against decent bowling.. will get found out.
That’s your issue. Our game isn’t very good so players like hales, Roy, Lyth and others can bat top 3 and will score. Yet, if you put them vs good bowlers not on a road they’ll be toast. They will also lack consistency and the ability to adapt to different pitches and situations as they generally play one way (shock horror, like England generally do now).
Personally I think it’s gone too far to fix and so test cricket will simply adapt to being a slightly longer ODI (4 days, regularly over in 3 if it’s not a road). Simply because, our system (don’t care about other nations) won’t produce the technical and mental abilities required.
If you’re a regular 15 yr old, show me where you will learn to bat long consistency at about 45-55 SR ? (Say 100-250 balls) . Show me where a player or tail will learn the skills needed to survive for 3 sessions ...
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i personally wouldn't drop everyone but would reduce to skeleton selections:
at the minute my confirmed picks would be:
1)
2)
3)
4) Root
5)
6)
7) Bairstow
8)
9)Leach
10)
11) Anderson
Leach is only a sure for me as hes had one game did ok and looks the bets spinner we have tried, would be totally unfair to drop him now
then Malan, stokes, woakes are close to being selected barring a rubbish start to the season so that covers 5/6/8
id like to see a young quick picked to bat at 10, then its anyone from
livingstone, westley, vince, cook, stoneman, hammeed, gubbins, northeast, hain, jennings, Alex Davies to force their way into the 11
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The best news is that Pakistan is coming in only a few weeks. So our new look team will be up against another high quality seam attack.
We could well loose again.
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The best news is that Pakistan is coming in only a few weeks. So our new look team will be up against another high quality seam attack.
We could well loose again.
Aside from Azhar Ali, Pakistan's batting is more brittle than ours
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The best news is that Pakistan is coming in only a few weeks. So our new look team will be up against another high quality seam attack.
We could well loose again.
I see us winning against Pakistan as they're coming early and they'll struggle with the seaming and swinging ball.
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1.Stoneman
2.Cook/Hameed.
3.Malan
4.Root.
5.Bairstow
6.Stokes
7.Foakes
8.S Curran
9.Leach/Bess
10.Broad/Another quick
11.Anderson
S Curran needs a bit more this season but i think there a geniune all-rounder in there.
The geniune quick I'm not sure who.
Bairstow for me needs to grow as a out and out batsman. Yes i know he only averages 29 as a batter only.
I also like Sam Hain and Livingstone.
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Isn't Sam Currant a bit too bits and pieces and lacking pace at the moment? perhaps he has grown over the winter..
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But I think the biggest downfall is the neglect that England pay to test cricket away from home, they play barely any tour matches any more to help them prepare or go out in time to get used to conditions, instead they play more ODI's and T20 because of money, understandable it is a business, but doesn't help the players.
Not many tours get decent warm-up games nowadays, if you're lucky you'll get a game or two against some Prime Minister's XI made up of half-decent club players which is a waste of time. Better off just playing against each other in a practice match in training.
It means a 2 test series is a waste of time too. Pakistan will come over in the summer, probably get utterly trounced before they can properly get into the swing of things and England will learn nothing of value from the experience.
With regards to the number 3 spot, what about Cook? Can't be any worse than Vince. I imagine he'd fight against such a move though, as he'd see as the first step towards booting him out of the England team for good.
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I see us winning against Pakistan as they're coming early and they'll struggle with the seaming and swinging ball.
I see Pakistan winning because we will struggle with the seaming and swinging ball...
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I see Pakistan winning because we will struggle with the seaming and swinging ball...
I actually think , and I hate to say this, over a five match series against India, a draw would be a good result. I can see a very motivated Indian side coming here in the second half of the summer and winning.
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I actually think , and I hate to say this, over a five match series against India, a draw would be a good result. I can see a very motivated Indian side coming here in the second half of the summer and winning.
I think both Pakistan and India are going to cause us serious problems this summer.
Pakistan have a very potent seam attack and if the weather carries on there should be plenty in the wicket.
India's batting has improved alot Pujura will have spent 2 season's with Yorkshire. And Kohli is a completely different player than who toured here before. There seam attack is now not to shabby going by the S.A. series.
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We could do this underhandedly - we rope in nz into the Sheffield shield via $$$$ . Then get nz players into oz based teams . Finally we make the comp go for 6/8 months ...however long a person needs to stay in the country every year to qualify to play as a naturalized player, then sign them up to a big $ central contract .
Mwahaha .
I like your way of thinking master 🥋
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Much depends on whether Chef will retire/score early season runs.
1. Alastair Cook
2. H. Hameed
3. James Vince
4. Joe Root
5. D. Malan
6. Ben Stokes
7. Jonny Bairstow
8. Stuart Broad
9. Jack Leech
10. L.A. Quick/Gleeson
11. Jimmy Anderson
They may well go horses for courses with Woakes or Roland-Jones, thinking- crikey, we need a win here! I would say sod it, let's blood a quick.
I have to say I like Leech who looks decent! Could do with another left armer to help build rough patches for Leechey boy to bowl into fromt'other end...
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Surprised anyone is putting Stuart Broad any higher than 10 on the batting line up. It's great that's he seems to have rediscovered some form with the ball but his batting really has gone downhill. He looks like a proper rabbit sometimes now, a far cry from his days as a Gary Sobers-like dasher.
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Surprised anyone is putting Stuart Broad any higher than 10 on the batting line up. It's great that's he seems to have rediscovered some form with the ball but his batting really has gone downhill. He looks like a proper rabbit sometimes now, a far cry from his days as a Gary Sobers-like dasher.
Leach looks a far far better bat and too be honest Broad never really looked like being anywhere near his dad batting wise who was a very good player
He did score a memorable ton against Pakistan but it was just once, apart from that it's been a thrash and getting out of line
There's very few over the years who can do both well at test level, it's why stokes is such a diamond.
I quite like Golders team, I would still have Woakes in my side and Stoneman ahead of Vince all day long
The problem with both Stoneman and Vince is they have not really done enough, of the two Stoneman looks like he is tougher, pretty 20's don't work against good test sides
I have a feeling thou....Stoneman will not make the first test of the summer-just a gut feeling
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Having read Cooky lad's (yes he is a close friend of mine!;)) Column on the sky sports app-looks like he has the hunger and drive to carry on-i bet he scores a load of early season runs and keeps his place.
Also interesting how highly he spoke of both Leech-and particularly Vince-nada about Stoneman!
I am sure his thoughts still hold some sway.
So therefore I am sticking to my original selection of ruthlessly jettisoning Stoneman and keeping Vince at 3!
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I am still hungry and have the drive to do well.
Sadly that isn't enough to be an international sportsman (or woman).
Also of course he will say nice things about his teammates, he isn't KP. He is also a nice bloke. That also isn't enough.
If we keep doing the same things we will keep having the same results.
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I am still hungry and have the drive to do well.
Sadly that isn't enough to be an international sportsman (or woman).
Also of course he will say nice things about his teammates, he isn't KP. He is also a nice bloke. That also isn't enough.
If we keep doing the same things we will keep having the same results.
Yes but you don't have his record...
Anyway,I'm not sure why we actually bother discussing and speculating-Buzz you seem to be in on the selection meetings and in with the powers that be...which is great for us on the forum...cheers!
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Hameed batting at 3 for Lancs today..... Any bets on England telling him to bat there?