Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: InternalTraining on June 25, 2018, 07:33:12 PM
-
Tim Keeley or Andrew Kimber?
Have you used both?
I hear Keeley's bats are better pressed them Kimber's.
Edit: I know there are other bat makers in the world but I am specifically looking for a comparison between TK and AK since their bats are so similar. Also, I have never used an AK but several Keelies.
-
Getting a bit sick of these threads. I have/have had a number of bats from a number of different makers including these two. In my experience a great bat is a great bat and it’s not possible to say 1 maker is better than another. Of all the brands I currently own I cannot say that my h4l is better than my Aldred. Or my Keeley better than my Red Ink....... All the bats I currently own are fantastic and the only difference between them is the knob at the end, and I’m not talking about the counter balance.
Brands I currently own
Red ink
Salic raw
H4l nv and warbird monster
Aldred supreme
Keeley made b&s stickered
B&s LE
Jedi zaramax
Affinity carbine
And 2 others that I can’t think of at the minute
-
How do you undo an accidental like? (The top one.)
-
Tim Keeley or Andrew Kimber?
Have you used both?
I hear Keeley's bats are better pressed them Kimber's.
Edit: I know there are other bat makers in the world but I am specifically looking for a comparison between TK and AK since their bats are so similar. Also, I have never used an AK but several Keelies.
Personally, I think TKs are a smidge ahead in terms of performance and pick up. For me, every salix I have seen has been a beauty but tends to have slightly less coverage up the blade compared to a TK, could just be due to the shapes Kember makes, but generally that's the trend I find. I also personally find salix bats actually tend to feel a bit heavy compared to TK bats, again could just be due to the shape.
-
@Gurujames
I think you might have a Hunts County?
-
Might have. The point is reputable makers and retailers sell good gear. The quality and consistency of the batmakers I have tried has been excellent and I cannot find any significant difference between them. I may prefer the handle shape of a particular bat or use a particular bat based on the bounce of the wicket/speed of the bowling but
-
Personally I don’t think there is anything in it and I know that Kember is very respectful of the bats TK produce, they are totally different though in that Kember is 100% hand made from scratch and TK has long been a fan of the CNC machine with final prep. I honestly believe though that the key is that Kember has stayed true to the same values for over 25yrs with Salix, TK has been with Newbery, now Keeley and plenty of others in between backed by large companies or finance hedge funds were as Kember has relied on his repeat custom to build, grow and produce a much sought after company. Most know my loyalty is to Kember as he gave me his time and allowed me to learn and work alongside him for a few years.
The honest answer is the are both amazing in there chosen profession
-
No.1 most important thing in choosing a bat should be how it feels in your hands.
And the no.1 determinant of how a bat performs is your own skill.
I wish I could stop coming on this forum.
-
The honest answer is the are both amazing in there chosen profession
But not as amazing as Gunn and Moore. ;)
-
No.1 most important thing in choosing a bat should be how it feels in your hands.
And the no.1 determinant of how a bat performs is your own skill.
I can find exceptions to both of those statements. I wish it was that simple.
-
Personally, I think TKs are a smidge ahead in terms of performance and pick up. For me, every salix I have seen has been a beauty but tends to have slightly less coverage up the blade compared to a TK, could just be due to the shapes Kember makes, but generally that's the trend I find. I also personally find salix bats actually tend to feel a bit heavy compared to TK bats, again could just be due to the shape.
That is a good comparison!
-
But not as amazing as Gunn and Moore. ;)
Recently tapped a GM Icon, it is a very nice product albeit CNC made. :)
-
Recently tapped a GM Icon, it is a very nice product albeit CNC made. :)
Gunn and Moore make decent cricket bats? Well I never...
Goodnight.
-
Who was better, Goya or Velazquez? Mozart or Beethoven?
Freddie Mercury or Michael Jackson? Ronaldo or Messi? Pele or Maradona?
These are the questions that only fools try to answer. Just appreciate two craftsmen at the very pinnacle of their art.
-
I see your point but I wouldn't go so far as comparing fine art, music, and literature to "pod-shaving".
You sure jest, bruh. :D
-
Who was better, Goya or Velazquez? Mozart or Beethoven?
Freddie Mercury or Michael Jackson? Ronaldo or Messi? Pele or Maradona?
These are the questions that only fools try to answer. Just appreciate two craftsmen at the very pinnacle of their art.
Maybe trying to answer such questions objectively is difficult (arguably foolish) due to the quality of the comparisons ( because , yes, they are all excellent ). ....and the subjective nature required for judging their qualities.
But . We can certainly assert our personal preferences as they can be purely subjective . And. These personal preferences amount to who is 'better' in the subjective view of the individual.
Hence i have no problem with this thread , or the o.p . Maybe such threads have been done before and might feel repetitive. Maybe it feels like a futile exercise. Ok , cool , whatevs , but for me , i won't get tired of hearing subjective personal opinions of which bats are 'better' , because not all bats are made equal . Handles differ , pressing differs, shapes differ , finishing differs , shaping methods differ , willow selections (and sometimes even the quality /source / grading ) differ, prices differ , etc etc .
Basically , I feel that if people aren't encouraged to give their opinions on what is better , then forums like these lose value .
-
Recently tapped a GM Icon, it is a very nice product albeit CNC made. :)
You are aware that Tim Keeley uses a CNC machine aren't you?
-
Only differences ive ever noticed is that AJK seems to be a little bit more focused on durability than TK. They always seem to use denser wood and harder press as ive never seen any Salix with over 40mm edge and most seem to have a light concave whereas I've seen a lot of massive TK bats. Both are amazing bat makers and you really cant compare them.
-
They both trained under John Newbery, so both learned from the best. It's like anything we buy, we all have a brand preference - in my experience, I felt I had a better experience and found Tim Keeley more welcoming the times I used to go see him when Newbery was still in Robertsbridge compared to the one time I went to Salix, whereby I felt I was an inconvenience being there. However I don't think it matters who has made it as long as 1) it pings and 2) pick up is good for you
-
You are aware that Tim Keeley uses a CNC machine aren't you?
He'd probably struggle to supply 23 different brands if he didn't?
-
He'd probably struggle to supply 23 different brands if he didn't?
Tried explaining this at my club as they were very confused how he did it.
-
But not as amazing as Gunn and Moore. ;)
Just prefer using my GM's at the moment thanks pal, I may swap later in the year but when your in a purple patch dont change things
-
Only differences ive ever noticed is that AJK seems to be a little bit more focused on durability than TK. They always seem to use denser wood and harder press as ive never seen any Salix with over 40mm edge and most seem to have a light concave whereas I've seen a lot of massive TK bats.
Good information!
-
I had a Salix torque that had possibly the best middle of any bat I’ve ever owned. I couldn’t get on with the balance of it which rendered this middle absolutely useless to me!! Sold it and the new owner loved it, scored a ton first innings
-
No.1 most important thing in choosing a bat should be how it feels in your hands.
And the no.1 determinant of how a bat performs is your own skill.
I wish I could stop coming on this forum.
My previous post more or less echoes this
-
Just prefer using my GM's at the moment thanks pal, I may swap later in the year but when your in a purple patch dont change things
No worries, pal.
-
I find it surprising that with all the technology and analysis in the game, there hasn't been objective testing of the rebound in different bats. Qualities like pick up and feel are subjective and will differ from person to person but the rebound energy produced by a bat should be capable of objective testing
-
I find it surprising that with all the technology and analysis in the game, there hasn't been objective testing of the rebound in different bats. Qualities like pick up and feel are subjective and will differ from person to person but the rebound energy produced by a bat should be capable of objective testing
Because we all know how reliable these tests can be... You just have to look at Volkswagen’s emissions tests to see how easily they can be doctored.
Also, doesn’t take into account knocking in/oiling that would alter this result as well as batsman’s style & shot selection...
-
I find it surprising that with all the technology and analysis in the game, there hasn't been objective testing of the rebound in different bats. Qualities like pick up and feel are subjective and will differ from person to person but the rebound energy produced by a bat should be capable of objective testing
There's a video on You Tube, featuring Brad Haddin, about a University doing research and trying to identify the exact characteristics of a very responsive willow.
I'll post the link later, if no-one manages to find it first.
-
Because we all know how reliable these tests can be... You just have to look at Volkswagen’s emissions tests to see how easily they can be doctored.
Also, doesn’t take into account knocking in/oiling that would alter this result as well as batsman’s style & shot selection...
These sorts of variables are exactly the sort of thing that could be tested in order to identify the best process for preparing a bat for use.
A sport like Forumla 1 where every component of a car is riguroisly tested for performance isn't a fair comparisons due to the money involved in motor racing but cycling is probably a better comparison to where cricket is
-
You underestimate how much effort goes into aero testing in cycling! @Calzebhoy VW found a way to cheat the test, there wasn't anything wrong with the results.
Testing bats for performance is pretty easy and has been quite widely done. Trouble is, it provides very little useful information to the customer, and in any case almost noone cares anyway!
-
There's a video on You Tube, featuring Brad Haddin, about a University doing research and trying to identify the exact characteristics of a very responsive willow.
I'll post the link later, if no-one manages to find it first.
They didn’t post any results. I wrote to the university and got no where. Just another bit of research that benefits no one.
Who makes the better bat.....hmmm
In terms of attention to detail, Salix workmanship seems peerless.
In terms of actually ending up in players hands, TK was all geared up for larger production.
Press of both seem similar.
Inspirations of both bat makers is totally different.
I’m pretty certain TK has made for more international players and taken feedback and developed designs based on it. His shapes over the years have taken risks and introduced innovations and a few gimmicks. This is very much in the Newbery tradition.
AJK seems to Chase perfection and prides himself on the finish of the product. His inspirations are well set out on his website and I think he is less concerned with tweaking shapes and his bats balance and feel lovely in the hands.
I won’t judge them as they are different in terms of approach and both have loyal customers. I cannot see a player will go wrong if either was given the same cleft, but the bats would be different.
-
Personally prefer TKs - the profiles seem to suit me more. My brother liked Salix more when he played.
I've found that both press very well, and from what I've seen, the TK bats are that little bit more responsive, but Ive had far more TK bats than Salix...
In terms of pure beauty of the finished product, I think Salix are on a level of their own, with probably Laver being the next in the pecking order.
-
In terms of pure beauty of the finished product, I think Salix are on a level of their own, with probably Laver being the next in the pecking order.
Interesting point, I thought of Laver too!
-
You underestimate how much effort goes into aero testing!
I mustn't have made the point clearly as I was saying the opposite, that cycling puts a huge amount of resource into testing equipment when considering the resources that the sport has available
-
I mustn't have made the point clearly as I was saying the opposite, that cycling puts a huge amount of resource into testing equipment when considering the resources that the sport has available
Makes more sense now 👍 Huge testing in cycling on relatively small resources yep, reason being that money spent on testing = seconds lost on course. Money spent on bat testing does not necessarily lead to improvements in runs scored though, so teams spend their resources elsewhere.
-
Tim makes better bats
-
In my opinion mid range I would go for GM UK range
For high quality finished and performance I would go salix
performance and generally very good I would.go TK .
-
Makes more sense now 👍 Huge testing in cycling on relatively small resources yep, reason being that money spent on testing = seconds lost on course. Money spent on bat testing does not necessarily lead to improvements in runs scored though, so teams spend their resources elsewhere.
Personally i just think that cricket is at least a generation behind other sports when it comes to maximising performance. Taking fitness seriously and employing teams of analysts came late to cricket compared to other sports.
I would be inclined to say that better performing bats may amount to a marginal gain rather than something that would have a transformative effect on the game but that is exactly what other sports spend significant resources to achieve.
-
Personally i just think that cricket is at least a generation behind other sports when it comes to maximising performance. Taking fitness seriously and employing teams of analysts came late to cricket compared to other sports.
I would be inclined to say that better performing bats may amount to a marginal gain rather than something that would have a transformative effect on the game but that is exactly what other sports spend significant resources to achieve.
I don't think it's even that - marginal gain territory would be the difference between a bat with 50mm and 40mm edges, for example, but that hasn't made the blindest bit of difference, has it? Personal preference also is arguably more important than small improvements in performance - for example I own several bats that I'd say 'perform' better than my chosen match bat, but my match bat is still definitely my preferred bat. Balance and profile are much more important for many players.
-
I don't think it's even that - marginal gain territory would be the difference between a bat with 50mm and 40mm edges, for example, but that hasn't made the blindest bit of difference, has it? Personal preference also is arguably more important than small improvements in performance - for example I own several bats that I'd say 'perform' better than my chosen match bat, but my match bat is still definitely my preferred bat. Balance and profile are much more important for many players.
I would say that big edged bats have made a difference in that you no longer need to middle the ball to clear the ropes as the sweet spot has effectively been significantly enlarged. however, the bat of itself had not changed the game - it is part of a combination of factors which has resulted in greater scoring rates. take the bats away and you would still see higher scoring rates than a generation ago, but I am fairly confident that they are even higher with today's bats.
-
You just have to realise how many pros bats are made by tim to understand he makes better bats
They depend on consistently incredible bats and a good percentage of the good and great of the game have used his bats
-
Would he supply more than SS to pro's?
-
Would he supply more than SS to pro's?
Definitely not, but I would be interested to know the percentage of makers total output that make it into the hands of pros.
-
The real question is which pros pay for bats from whom.
I have no idea who pays for Andrew Kember's bats but I know that Tim doesn't run a pro bat charity...
-
The real question is which pros pay for bats from whom.
I have no idea who pays for Andrew Kember's bats but I know that Tim doesn't run a pro bat charity...
Neither does Stu at GN, there was an Indian player quite taken back when he got hit with a bill from GN a few years ago.
-
These sort of threads are total garbage in my book to be honest. There's plenty of bat makers out there that make stunning bats for amateurs and pros alike - do we really need to keep comparing one another (especially when the two you're comparing go about things completely differently!!)
In reality the most experienced bat maker in the world, and probably the best, is more than likely to be found in the sub-continent.
-
In reality the most experienced bat maker in the world, and probably the best, is more than likely to be found in the sub-continent.
That's a really interesting shout. I've often wondered who gets top billing over there. Are you talking about one batmaker in particular? Genuinely interested.
-
The real question is which pros pay for bats from whom.
I have no idea who pays for Andrew Kember's bats but I know that Tim doesn't run a pro bat charity...
Do these players sponsors foot the bill, or do the players actually buy the bats out of their own pockets?
-
That's a really interesting shout. I've often wondered who gets top billing over there. Are you talking about one batmaker in particular? Genuinely interested.
No specific knowledge I'm afraid - I'm as equally intrigued as you! There must be some true masters working overseas though, easily 40/50+ years experience I would've thought.
As far as my personal experiences go I've only had first hand experience with Robinsons from when I've met up with Surinder, but the bats he's brought with him have always been exceptional pieces of work. As good as any I've come across elsewhere.
-
Having played cricket with someone that used to work at Salix, I don't think Andy Kember is a fan of making blank bats to be stickered up by pro's. You either want to use Salix as a brand or you don't. Sam Northeast used Salix for ages - I'm guessing once he went to Slazenger, Salix stopped making bats for him. Newbery have been making blank bats for pro's for years - they almost went bust in the late 80's and most of the bats they made went to the likes of Kookaburra and Zenith, so Tim's always made bats for pro's - which they are obviously happy to pay for.
-
It's not hard to take stickers off.
-
Do these players sponsors foot the bill, or do the players actually buy the bats out of their own pockets?
It depends on the arrangements made with Tim as I understand.
Hypothetically let's say Nike want Tim to make bats for a bunch of their pros, then I am sure they could have an arrangement, but if you were with GM or Ton the situation would not be the same.
-
It's not hard to take stickers off.
Or just ask for a blank bat lol Wonder if Salix do blanks?
-
@Yorkershire look at the post directly above the one you quoted ;)
-
@Yorkershire look at the post directly above the one you quoted ;)
I really need to read more carefully rather than pic up on soundbites!
-
I do not know who makes the best bats or even that's a correct question in the first place.
But I do not get it when a piece (which in fact every bat is) of wood costs more than latest iphone/samsungs.
I believe there should be a balance in pricing or else people will not be able to rate a bat properly.
Some people under the influence of money tag will always pick the costliest ones as the best ones and some will look for best value for money.
And to me the Bat pricing and quality (in today's market) are same as buying the high end analog wrist watch or having iranian beluga caviar.
Both will never justify their price for their usage.
-
I do not know who makes the best bats or even that's a correct question in the first place.
But I do not get it when a piece (which in fact every bat is) of wood costs more than latest iphone/samsungs.
I believe there should be a balance in pricing or else people will not be able to rate a bat properly.
Some people under the influence of money tag will always pick the costliest ones as the best ones and some will look for best value for money.
And to me the Bat pricing and quality (in today's market) are same as buying the high end analog wrist watch or having iranian beluga caviar.
Both will never justify their price for their usage.
You make some very good points.
Going to a reputable bat maker/brand and paying high price eliminates some risks and increases the probability of getting a good bat. That's all. For those of us, who don't live in cricket gear rich countries, that guarantee could mean enjoying an entire season instead of anguishing over half (or more) of a season where lower priced (value) bat didn't open up or ping or play well. I'd happily buy no-brand, no-label, ugly betty, high pinging bats at low costs if they were available. From experience, such bats are hard to find.
Now, we can get into that but it is a separate discussion.
All I know is that TK is one of the bat brands that doesn't disappoint and mine just sounds exquisite. :D And, secondly, I stocked up when prices were lower than the 500/600 GBP mark. :D I haven't bought a bat in a year (sacrilege, I know :D ) but I am pretty stocked up on good ones and prices are pretty high on those bats right now.
-
Only differences ive ever noticed is that AJK seems to be a little bit more focused on durability than TK. They always seem to use denser wood and harder press as ive never seen any Salix with over 40mm edge and most seem to have a light concave whereas I've seen a lot of massive TK bats. Both are amazing bat makers and you really cant compare them.
I am late on here but I disagree on the size generalization, I had a Salix Torque that was massive and had 0 concaving, weighed only 2-10/11. Pressing was harder than TK for sure but not anywhere closed to what I would call are hard or soft pressed, I would say pressed correctly for that cleft.
-
These sort of threads are total garbage in my book to be honest. There's plenty of bat makers out there that make stunning bats for amateurs and pros alike - do we really need to keep comparing one another (especially when the two you're comparing go about things completely differently!!)
In reality the most experienced bat maker in the world, and probably the best, is more than likely to be found in the sub-continent.
Personally, the fact that both go about the process in a different way is part of what makes this an interesting question.