Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: alexhilly1492 on July 06, 2018, 03:57:39 PM
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Ahead of the first test on August 1st a lions squad has been announced for a tour game vs India A starting 16th July at worcester
Cook, Burns, gubbins, Malan, Pope, Woakes, Curran, Bess, Fisher, Leach, Porter
six test players in the squad (in bold)
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You could argue barring cook and woakes the rest arent really test players yet.. just the odd cap
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they've played a test match, they're test players unfortuntely that makes darren pattinson a test player but still....
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Pope getting the gloves ahead of Foakes?
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Pope getting the gloves ahead of Foakes?
I was thinking the same thing!
I know Pope is averaging some very decent 1st Class run stats, but I still think Foakes deserves a break.
Saying that and looking at it from a different point of view, I guess the selectors realise that Foakes has some quality to offer. But maybe they are testing Pope to see how he performs at a slightly better level?
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I was thinking the same thing!
I know Pope is averaging some very decent 1st Class run stats, but I still think Foakes deserves a break.
Saying that and looking at it from a different point of view, I guess the selectors realise that Foakes has some quality to offer. But maybe they are testing Pope to see how he performs at a slightly better level?
They know what Foakes can do so I don't think it's anything really against him. By giving Pope the gloves it also allows them to have a look at another bowler ie. Both Bess and Leach against each other.
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Pope getting the gloves ahead of Foakes?
Must be a deal with Surrey as Foakes will probably captain Surrey.
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Must be a deal with Surrey as Foakes will probably captain Surrey.
Do other counties get these deals? Surely if Foakes is the best pick he should be picked?
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Though I suppose Surrey would argue they've already contributed three to the squad with Burns and Curran.
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I suspect Alec Stewart is an adept politician with the selectors, Foakes hasn't played much for Surrey and we are providing a load of players for international duty
However as are Yorkshire, so I suspect they need to get better at doing a Stewie!
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I suspect Alec Stewart is an adept politician with the selectors, Foakes hasn't played much for Surrey and we are providing a load of players for international duty
However as are Yorkshire, so I suspect they need to get better at doing a Stewie!
I think those bridges were burned circa the Lords game two years ago. The fact that Matt Fisher is in the squad, despite not playing a single first class game this year, and only one last year, is particularly galling given how crucial he is to our white ball team (yes, I agree incidentally that he is a future test player...but not yet!)
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Do other counties get these deals? Surely if Foakes is the best pick he should be picked?
If that was the way the Lions was picked the above squad would look very different!
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England starting well in the A match today, we still need Cook's runs this summer there's surely no doubt about that.
Gubbins again thou getting runs, this guy has been a bit unlucky not to feature yet.
Vijay,Pant,yadav and Rahane all in India's side, they have some strength in depth now.
cant wait for the test series!
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Rory Burns might regret missing out today.
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Must be a deal with Surrey as Foakes will probably captain Surrey.
Turns out Surrey are playing the Windies A team and using the Kent Wicket keeper Rouse as foakes is being rested.
Staggering that Surrey are playing without about 3 keepers.
But Burns and Pope are with the Lions, Foakes rested and Smith is with Eng U19s...
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Unusual solution!
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I see the Leach-Bess bowl off has been enlightening - 5 overs for Leach, 9 for Bess! Selectors will be delighted with that I'm sure.
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Personally would like to see Ali play. Be interesting to see how much time they give Malan if doesnt score many runs
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Going to be interesting to see who plays - Cook, Jennings, Root, Malan, Stokes, Bairstow, Buttler nailed on now for the top seven, so it'll be one spinner, Broad Anderson and a seamer.
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Going to be interesting to see who plays - Cook, Jennings, Root, Malan, Stokes, Bairstow, Buttler nailed on now for the top seven, so it'll be one spinner, Broad Anderson and a seamer.
Yep definitely those guys plus a spinner out of Leach, Bess or Ali.
Then a seamer out of Wood, Woakes or Sam Curran.
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No chance is Ali going to play and Woakes won't be fully fit in time, it'll be Leach/Bess and Wood.
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No chance is Ali going to play and Woakes won't be fully fit in time, it'll be Leach/Bess and Wood.
I know Ali wont play but dont rate leach or Bess personally think India will make them both look very ordinary. Still dont understand why wood gets picked does really do much
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If players are fit England tend to stick with them if they played the last test match, Wood was unlucky to be left out after being told to bang it in against Pakistan which was brainless.Leach has not long come back from injury.
So they probably will stick with Bess and Wood not Woakes. woakes gets valuable runs as well as his bowling but with Stokes back there is cover to play Wood.Woakes is only just back playing I think.
To me Curran looks far too slow to worry India, he does swing it but swing depends on atmospherics (I think but don't really know), :)
Batting wise no change I can see....
Could be close over 5 games but I fear if India are up for it we won't get enough of their wickets to win
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No chance is Ali going to play and Woakes won't be fully fit in time, it'll be Leach/Bess and Wood.
Woakes has played a 2nd XI game, the lions game and will have a CC game vs Middlesex starting on Sunday under his belt. So it will be interesting to see if he is considered for selection.
I wouldn't rule out Curran he has just got a michelle against a strong India A line up.
Bess vs Leach is the most interesting pick for me. Bess was only playing because Leach was injured and did he offer that much with the ball? The other thing to consider is India only have 1 left hander in their batting line up (Dhawan). So personally I would rather had the ball going away from the bat.
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Agreed. Bess performed admirably, and looks a good prospect, but I think Leach deserves a run first, and it;s always great to have someone taking it away from the right-hander.
Personally, I'd play both of them in these conditions, and find a fit and willing workhorse to replace Broad, Curran or Woakes or someone to bowl tight.
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Think they will go with Bess as he can bat a bat more than leach. I heard broad had an ankle problem so the first test should be interesting, but England should beat India whenever the ball has swung or seamed they have struggled, whether that be against Sri Lanka last year or South Africa.
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Agreed. Bess performed admirably, and looks a good prospect, but I think Leach deserves a run first, and it;s always great to have someone taking it away from the right-hander.
Personally, I'd play both of them in these conditions, and find a fit and willing workhorse to replace Broad, Curran or Woakes or someone to bowl tight.
India play spin for fun no point having two average spinners, would only understand if one of them was Ali
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It is not going to seam or swing round corners, we haven;t got any express or bouncy bowlers in form, our usual medium-pacers could be fodder if the pitchers are flat.
However, if they are dry and might turn a bit, I'd rather have an average spinner who might get a bit of help than a plodder.
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Woakes has only bowled 18 overs since returning from injury so if England are half sensible he'll be targetting second test. Then again Stokes is normally rushed back in as quickly as possible, which always goes well...
Curran looked pretty unthreatening in the last test so I can't see him playing as a specialist bowler. Maybe an outside chance of an Overton?
Leach and Bess didn't get any overs again today I see, shame. Presumably Leach comes back to take his place come the tests.
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Interview with Baylis earlier suggested Rashid May back track on his white ball only plan after seeing Buttlers success in Odis.
Apparently now Rashid has released a statement too saying red ball cricket may be back on the cards.
Rashid for this test squad??
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Heard that too tonight on the t20
If he's come out with that then surely they've had a word with him and he's in with a chance of playing. The bowl off between the spinners in the lions game was pointless by looks of it, not many overs for either of them
If they do pick Rashid, I don't agree with it if he hasn't been playing red ball for Yorkshire, can't pick him on the back of ODI wickets, as much as I'd like to see him play
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Interview with Baylis earlier suggested Rashid May back track on his white ball only plan after seeing Buttlers success in Odis.
Apparently now Rashid has released a statement too saying red ball cricket may be back on the cards.
Rashid for this test squad??
Here it is..... it was an interview with Sky for his England Diary when he talked about it.
Personally I don't think you should be able to hold your country to ransom like that and be saying you'll consider it if they want me to play! You either play or you don't end of.
'Rashid: I'd consider Test recall'
http://www.skysports.com/share/11442327 (http://www.skysports.com/share/11442327)
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Don't forget, Stokes can't play the 1st test due to court dates, which might influence the balance of the team.
Maybe bump Butter up to 6 and pick a bowling all rounder at 7. Curran or Woakes? Or do we start looking at Bess as an all-rounder too?
Kind of agree with the folks who have Leach ahead of Bess, but without Stokes does Bess' batting count for more?
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Good point forgot about the court date. Bess looked good to me and showed some character.
I think thou that makes Woakes more likely to play. Six and out pointed out a left arm spinner with all their right henders might be more dangerous .
I'm yet to see an Indian batsman troubled by spin either way thou.....Mo Ali did well last time they were here which was a bit of a surprise to me anyway
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Update! Just read Bayliss says Stokes plays first test, misses the Lords test due to trial.
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Update! Just read Bayliss says Stokes plays first test, misses the Lords test due to trial.
Stokes Trial is on August 6th (day after 1st Test could finish) and is expected to last between 5-7days. 2nd test starts August 9th.
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Interview with Baylis earlier suggested Rashid May back track on his white ball only plan after seeing Buttlers success in Odis.
Apparently now Rashid has released a statement too saying red ball cricket may be back on the cards.
Rashid for this test squad??
So, Andrew Gale asked Rahid to play the Roses match and was basically told to p155 off. According to two papers today, Ed Smith has asked Rashid to reconsider and all of a sudden its back on.
Ho hum.
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Rashid and hales should never of given up red ball cricket in the first place, it was daft, Butler has more brains and had the right idea, he was planning to play for lancs this season long before he got a surprise call up.
I don't see any problem at all, Gale is not an England selector so there is no issue.
The problem with some of these Counties is they think they are bigger than the England team, most of them are being propped up financially and don't pay the wages of those contracted to England.
If I was Andrew Gale I'd pick up the phone and say thanks to Ed Smith. Rashid is more likely to play for England if he plays some 4 day cricket for Yorkshirw.
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England have struggled in recent times to win tests because they don't have the ability to take 20 wickets in the game, particularly away from home. They need to start picking bowlers on the basis that they are likely to take wickets rather that because they can bat a bit
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Isnt he a bit less likely to get people caught on the fence at cow trying to smash his long hops for 6 in tests?
One great delivery does not make him a world class spinner all of a sudden. Its not like there arent other good ODI spinners who are poop in tests.
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What is the difference now that they reckon Rashid can be our main spinner (in a 1 spinner attack), when they wouldn't pick him and sacked him off a year and a half ago??
It is still the same coach. Just different captain and selector, I suppose that makes the difference.
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Maybe Rashids a better bowler now than he was in 2017.
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Maybe Rashids a better bowler now than he was in 2017.
Might be, hasnt played much red ball cricket in that time though.
Would also be worried it would get to the deciding 5th test in the ashes and hed drop out too tired. ;)
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Maybe Rashids a better bowler now than he was in 2017.
How can we possibly know that he's played no red ball cricket. Bowling leg spin in white ball is completely different, you have to attack etc... in red ball you just sit and wait for the bad one, which Rashid is still bowling at the moment.
Question... do you think that ball in the last ODI gets Kohli out in Tests? Because for me he plays a forward defensive and at best nicks to slip rather than trying to force it through the off side.
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If not Rashid then who? Mason Crane showed the most potential our of the 3 lads to have recently made their debuts but he is out injured for the season. The cupboard is very bare when it comes to spin bowling options right now
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If not Rashid then who? Mason Crane showed the most potential our of the 3 lads to have recently made their debuts but he is out injured for the season. The cupboard is very bare when it comes to spin bowling options right now
exactly right SD, Smith wants options for England he is just doing his job
we are in Sri Lanka this winter,we will need 2 quality spinners, or at least the very best we can get available
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If not Rashid then who? Mason Crane showed the most potential our of the 3 lads to have recently made their debuts but he is out injured for the season. The cupboard is very bare when it comes to spin bowling options right now
A thought Leach did very well in NZ considering he was on a track that offered absolutely nothing to him, Bess is very young but certainly has something about him.
The cupboard isn't bare it is just not necessarily holding any world beaters at the moment, but the potential is there definitely. We were spoilt for years having Swann and Panesar, we just have to realise that at the moment due to a lot of circumstances there will be a wait before we see another one of them come along etc...
Look i am not adverse to Rashid playing i just think it is a backward step and really sends out the wrong message to other spinners that you can just change your mind on a whim, after playing no red ball cricket and then get a test spot etc...
We are going to need 2 spinners in Sri Lanka anyway.
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The cupboard is bare when Moeen Ali can play 50 tests as the team's frontline spinner whilst averaging 40. We were very lucky to have Swann and Monty playing at the same time and it may be some time before we have another spinner of that quality to call on. The financial importance to the domestic game of playing T20 fixtures in the middle of summer is clear but it isn't going to produce the best system to develop international standard slow bowlers
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The cupboard is bare when Moeen Ali can play 50 tests as the team's frontline spinner whilst averaging 40. We were very lucky to have Swann and Monty playing at the same time and it may be some time before we have another spinner of that quality to call on. The financial importance to the domestic game of playing T20 fixtures in the middle of summer is clear but it isn't going to produce the best system to develop international standard slow bowlers
Completely agree about the no CC in middle of summer scheduling being a detriment to spinner development etc...
However, the reason Mo played 50 tests was the brand of cricket England were playing and the structure of the team Cook (and then Root) wanted, we wanted a spinner/batsman at 8, Mo was there to cover our top order failings and got in because of our love of allrounders. Saying he was our front line spinner was all a load of bs that the team spewed for confidence etc..., he was never that, if we really wanted to play a proper spinner at the detriment of our batting line up, we could have quite easily backed a youngster and at least tried them out.
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we are in Sri Lanka this winter,we will need 2 quality spinners, or at least the very best we can get available
So why waste time with Rashid? ;)
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Completely agree about the no CC in middle of summer scheduling being a detriment to spinner development etc...
However, the reason Mo played 50 tests was the brand of cricket England were playing and the structure of the team Cook (and then Root) wanted, we wanted a spinner/batsman at 8, Mo was there to cover our top order failings and got in because of our love of allrounders. Saying he was our front line spinner was all a load of bs that the team spewed for confidence etc..., he was never that, if we really wanted to play a proper spinner at the detriment of our batting line up, we could have quite easily backed a youngster and at least tried them out.
My personal view is that those games should have gone to Rashid who has the attributes to be a wicket taking spinner at test level (as well as ticking the box as an all rounder) but I can't think of anyone else from county cricket who was over looked as a wicket taking option during this period. It just seems to me that this has been a very fallow period for England when it comes to spin options
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Do think though Rashid should make up his own mind on playing and not allow himself to be persuaded by selectors etc
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On the back of good one day form the Guardian is tipping Ali for a test recall. Have to say much as I like him he doesn't fit into what we need going forward, we are not good enough to have a part time spinner England think is our front line spinner, it just don't work.Ali is a batsman who bowls (well)
It's a bit of a shame if you think about it Ali was just under the level to bat top 5....we tried loads in the middle order in the last 3 years, he could of had a spot instead of westley,ballance,Vince etc etc
Of all of the recent ones Leach looks the best bet to me, a genuine spinner who will get wickets.Bess looks to have the character and is young enough to improve a lot.
Then there is Rashid and Ali.
With Butler recalled you would think he plays the whole summer....so we have room for the best wicket taking specialist spinner
As others have said, we are miles from Swann....if you can forget the inane commentary, he's up there with the very best we have had.
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Thing is, right now we're committed to Stokes being the fifth bowler rather than sixth, so unless we are happy for Jennings to make up some overs, we can only play one spinner.
Rashid is a perfect second spinner. So is Moeen. For that matter, Crane and arguably Bess fill that role.
The only one who might be a first spinner is Leach. He'll tie up an end, give little away...but he won't run through quality sides. So, ironically, he needs a second spinner...
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Have you seen the SL vs SA 2nd test. Marharaj took 9 for and then 1st 3 SA wickets have gone to spin 19-3. It's only lunch on the 2nd day!!
We could need 3 spinners in Sri Lanka not 2!
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Have you seen the SL vs SA 2nd test. Marharaj took 9 for and then 1st 3 SA wickets have gone to spin 19-3. It's only lunch on the 2nd day!!
We could need 3 spinners in Sri Lanka not 2!
I think we may need 17 batsman forget how many spinners :(
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I'm on the phone to that Al jazzera reporter about the pitch in Sri Lanka.
This sort of thing must be reported, and he told me the next test will be all 4 innings in one day so I'm off down the bookies.
If you can't best em join em.
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I'm on the phone to that Al jazzera reporter about the pitch in Sri Lanka.
This sort of thing must be reported, and he told me the next test will be all 4 innings in one day so I'm off down the bookies.
If you can't best em join em.
Lol..... it's an interesting one whether the pitch will be reported.
SA all out 124 with all 10 wickets falling to spin.
Total figures for spinners in the test are 19-287 off 87.4 overs. And it's Tea on the 2nd day.
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Lol..... it's an interesting one whether the pitch will be reported.
SA all out 124 with all 10 wickets falling to spin.
Total figures for spinners in the test are 19-287 off 87.4 overs. And it's Tea on the 2nd day.
That's an amazing statistic!! You expect spinning wicket in Sri Lanka and India but that's off the scale
Out of interest wickets have been reported for being sub standard....Jamaica abandoned game for those that remember that....has a wicket ever been reported for spinning too much?? Not in my memory wonder if has actually happened?
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That's an amazing statistic!! You expect spinning wicket in Sri Lanka and India but that's off the scale
Out of interest wickets have been reported for being sub standard....Jamaica abandoned game for those that remember that....has a wicket ever been reported for spinning too much?? Not in my memory wonder if has actually happened?
Interesting I don't think so... the pitches in the last Bangladesh tour were spinning from ball 1 and never got reported and I think there was an pitch in the recent SL vs Aus series that was crazy that Smith wanted reporting that didn't happen.
EDIT - it was India vs Aus at Pune and Chris Broad rated the pitch as poor as Aus won in 3 days by 333 runs
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Hmmmm..... unconfirmed by Essex but being reported in all India's papers...... it's been kicking off at the County Ground which is why the warm-up game is now only 3 days
https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/virat-kohli-co-s-warm-up-match-against-essex-reduced-to-three-day-affair-reports/story-j2NMICp0iiVcc5mmL7NmsJ.html (https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/virat-kohli-co-s-warm-up-match-against-essex-reduced-to-three-day-affair-reports/story-j2NMICp0iiVcc5mmL7NmsJ.html)
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A bunch of grown men crying wolf
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India are complaining about a dry outfield... India?!
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india are lucky they can tell a green strip from a brown outfield
in London everything is like a wild west movie there's dust everywhere
we have no idea where to put the stumps!
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Normal childish petulance from India. Do they honestly not understand that the ground staff would water the square to keep the grass green but leave the outfield to go brown in the sun. Essex should have prepared the practice pitch as a dust bowl then both sides turn up in Birmingham to find a green seamer that has been sweating under covers for a week
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india are lucky they can tell a green strip from a brown outfield
Is that a Pink Floyd reference? If it is, I applaud you, sir.
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Mark Wood unable to bowl yesterday with a sore heel, and Woakes has had a pretty poor time of it in his first proper game back... Squad to be announced tomorrow, watch this space by the looks of things! I'm calling a surprise first call up for Joverton.
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wood has persistent problems m afraid
do you mean the other Overton? Jamie played a couple of matches then nothing, is he injured?
we are far too reliant on Jimmy I reckon, they must be keeping him in cotton wool apart from the Roses match think I saw him bash the stumps after Root got him out yesterday
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do you mean the other Overton? Jamie played a couple of matches then nothing, is he injured?
It was Craig who played in the Ashes/some ODIs, Jamie's not played any internationals yet. He's the quicker one, although he picks up injuries much more easily.
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Need to worry about Matt Coles, never mind Anderson
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It was Craig who played in the Ashes/some ODIs, Jamie's not played any internationals yet. He's the quicker one, although he picks up injuries much more easily.
you mean this Overton - the 3rd one is making a mess of Mo Ali's stumps!
https://twitter.com/WorcsCCC/status/1022063740374708224
https://twitter.com/WorcsCCC/status/1022063081755693057
https://twitter.com/WorcsCCC/status/1021804275930984454
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you mean this Overton - the 3rd one is making a mess of Mo Ali's stumps!
https://twitter.com/WorcsCCC/status/1022063740374708224
https://twitter.com/WorcsCCC/status/1022063081755693057
https://twitter.com/WorcsCCC/status/1021804275930984454
Yep that's the one, 7 in the match and counting could be good timing! Also, that is an unbelievably poor shot from Travis Head.
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Yep that's the one, 7 in the match and counting could be good timing! Also, that is an unbelievably poor shot from Travis Head.
Yep, awful shot from your overseas pro! But what a delivery to remove Mo!
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Mark Wood unable to bowl yesterday with a sore heel, and Woakes has had a pretty poor time of it in his first proper game back... Squad to be announced tomorrow, watch this space by the looks of things! I'm calling a surprise first call up for Joverton.
Woakes has been a shadow of the player he was over the last few years since he came back from the torn muscle he suffered last summer. Hopefully he can regain his previous form but 12 months on, it does raise the threat that it was a career changing injury
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Didn't look fit at all in the Ashes did he. Was excellent in the ODIs that followed to be fair, but then got injured again.
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Woakes has been a shadow of the player he was over the last few years since he came back from the torn muscle he suffered last summer. Hopefully he can regain his previous form but 12 months on, it does raise the threat that it was a career changing injury
Woakes done nothing in an England test shirt home or abroad for two years before last summers injury.
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So the Guardian are reporting that Mo is going to be getting a recall as part of a 13 man squad with 2 spinners in it to give Root options pitch dependent etc...
The batting stays the same and then the extra seamer spot will probably be between Woakes and Sam Curran but there might be a call up for Jamie Overton if they want pace as Wood is injured.
Squad - Cook, Jennings, Root, Malan, Bairstow, Stokes, Butler, Broad, Anderson, Mo, Leach, Woakes, Curran or Jamie Overton
Article link below -
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jul/25/moeen-ali-recall-england-test-squad-india?__twitter_impression=true
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Bringing mo back seems a backward step, especially to bat no higher than 8. Would rather Bess got another go
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Yes the guardian seems to get most right they had an article last week about a recall for Moeen. You can see why they want a confident and fit Mo in the team but I can't help thinking myself it just muddies the water long term.
The thing I don't get with England is Bess played the last game to replace Leach....Leach is now fit so he may come back...that's logical....but why would you pick Ali over Bess who played the last test match?
Whenever I see an England side these days I can't help scratching my head. I don't think Woakes is fit and Wood is never going to be long term
We will need 3 spinners in the winter, that's for sure, and that might be leach,Bess,Ali....but we don't need three spinners now
Bess will essentially be dropped if Ali is recalled, which seems wrong
Have England chucked the long term planning out the window? Or did we never have any? Or is it right in the first place?
Lots of questions here but no riddles
Where's that bloomin crocodile in Cambridge got to....
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Yes the guardian seems to get most right they had an article last week about a recall for Moeen. You can see why they want a confident and fit Mo in the team but I can't help thinking myself it just muddies the water long term.
The thing I don't get with England is Bess played the last game to replace Leach....Leach is now fit so he may come back...that's logical....but why would you pick Ali over Bess who played the last test match?
Whenever I see an England side these days I can't help scratching my head. I don't think Woakes is fit and Wood is never going to be long term
We will need 3 spinners in the winter, that's for sure, and that might be leach,Bess,Ali....but we don't need three spinners now
Bess will essentially be dropped if Ali is recalled, which seems wrong
Have England chucked the long term planning out the window? Or did we never have any? Or is it right in the first place?
Lots of questions here but no riddles
Where's that bloomin crocodile in Cambridge got to....
I can see why Mo has been recalled but as long as it as the 2nd spinner, because when you think about it that is all he ever was a batter that bowls good spin etc... So he makes the ideal 2nd spinner because to play a 2nd spinner we will probably drop a batsman, and Mo then gets picked ahead of Bess as the better batsman.
If you play Leach and Bess is our batting simply to weak? Whereas Leach and Mo is a little different?
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This really depends whether we are talking about a second spinner as part of a five or six man attack. If its five, then we should pick the best spinner. If six, then Mo is in with a chance as a number seven bat who bowls. Thing is, I can't see who they would drop to get to a six man attack. More likely he is in the squad so it looks okay when he plays the second game in lieu of Wor Sturkes...
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I can see why Mo has been recalled but as long as it as the 2nd spinner, because when you think about it that is all he ever was a batter that bowls good spin etc... So he makes the ideal 2nd spinner because to play a 2nd spinner we will probably drop a batsman, and Mo then gets picked ahead of Bess as the better batsman.
If you play Leach and Bess is our batting simply to weak? Whereas Leach and Mo is a little different?
Hmmmm, I see what you mean but to get 2 spinners in we might drop a specialist batsman to play 2 sub standard batsman? Or at least 2 non specialist batsman...put it that way. Mo is def a batsman but whether he is test class above number 7 is debateable(he inst in my book).
Butler is in the team as a specialist batsman, he would be the only batsman that could be left out.
I'm not sure that makes any sense....
The pet hate
thread has scrambled my brain, what cells I have have gone, if we play two spinners would we not drop a seamer?
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Off to day 1 with 22 of my club members... fancy dress as village people due to the fact we are Bristol YMCA CC.
Looking forward to what will hopefully be a cracking day, thats if I survive he mini bus up there!
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Off to day 1 with 22 of my club members... fancy dress as village people due to the fact we are Bristol YMCA CC.
Looking forward to what will hopefully be a cracking day, thats if I survive he mini bus up there!
Excellent! I shall keep a look out for you all on the telebox. I needed to use up some holiday at work so I booked next week off so I could sit at home on the sofa and watch the cricket :)
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This really depends whether we are talking about a second spinner as part of a five or six man attack. If its five, then we should pick the best spinner. If six, then Mo is in with a chance as a number seven bat who bowls. Thing is, I can't see who they would drop to get to a six man attack. More likely he is in the squad so it looks okay when he plays the second game in lieu of Wor Sturkes...
Malan is the batter quoted as the one who would be dropped to get Mo in to give you a 6 man attack with 2 spinners.
Essentially you would have -
Cook, Jennings, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Butler, Mo, Woakes/Curran/Overton, Leach, Broad, Anderson.
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Off to day 1 with 22 of my club members... fancy dress as village people due to the fact we are Bristol YMCA CC.
Looking forward to what will hopefully be a cracking day, thats if I survive he mini bus up there!
Spill the beans Tom...Which one are you going as?
I reckon the the Red Indian headress is too much for this weather, the leather biker bloke is too hot and sticky! I suspect you will be either construction guy or Cowboy....touting the mandatory tache!! :D
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Malan is the batter quoted as the one who would be dropped to get Mo in to give you a 6 man attack with 2 spinners.
Essentially you would have -
Cook, Jennings, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Butler, Mo, Woakes/Curran/Overton, Leach, Broad, Anderson.
Just dont rate Overton and I hope knowone mentioned ball. Hopefully worked plays hes basically an allrounder
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Just dont rate Overton and I hope knowone mentioned ball. Hopefully worked plays hes basically an allrounder
Ball not been mentioned. It is uncapped Jamie Overton they are talking about not Craig that played in the ashes, if that makes any difference.
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Ball not been mentioned. It is uncapped Jamie Overton they are talking about not Craig that played in the ashes, if that makes any difference.
Sorry my bad, whats the status on TRJ last time I read about him he was out for the season. That still the case?
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Woakes done nothing in an England test shirt home or abroad for two years before last summers injury.
At the start of his test career he bowled barely above medium pace and his swing could be picked up straight away from his arm but he developed in 2016 into an international class bowler. Since his injury he seems to reverted to the standard he bowled at at the start of his international career.
At the moment, the only reason to select his is because he is a decent bat but it is no wonder we struggle to take 20 wickets in a test match when we pick bowlers based on their ability as batsmen
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Sorry my bad, whats the status on TRJ last time I read about him he was out for the season. That still the case?
Yep he suffered a recurrence of a stress fracture in his back in April and is out for the season.
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Yep he suffered a recurrence of a stress fracture in his back in April and is out for the season.
Such a shame he bowled so well against South Africa.
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Spill the beans Tom...Which one are you going as?
I reckon the the Red Indian headress is too much for this weather, the leather biker bloke is too hot and sticky! I suspect you will be either construction guy or Cowboy....touting the mandatory tache!! :D
You sir are correct, I got dumped into the construction worker group and thankfully avoided the biker outfit as faux leather isnt going to be enjoyable in this heat as u say.
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Bringing mo back seems a backward step, especially to bat no higher than 8. Would rather Bess got another go
Even Sangakkara said Ali was a better genuine spinner than Bess (in the build up to the roses T20 game the other night).
Bess/Leach's (add any other spinner here) stock rises when Ali gets a bit of tap on the test scene but ultimately Ali has been the best proven spinner in an England shirt bar Swann in the past decade. We all know he can bat, but for England he's predominantly a spinner and he does a good job. I mean, he's just had a stand off against Leach in the Worcs vs Somerset game and Ali has taken 8 wickets compared to Leach's 2.
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Malan is the batter quoted as the one who would be dropped to get Mo in to give you a 6 man attack with 2 spinners.
Essentially you would have -
Cook, Jennings, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Butler, Mo, Woakes/Curran/Overton, Leach, Broad, Anderson.
Harsh on Malam, and counterproductive as we need to know if he is Test class or not. Also, YJB keeping at four is too.much, as is Butter at six.. to make the personnel work, either Ali bats four, or bats six and Butter keeps
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Even Sangakkara said Ali was a better genuine spinner than Bess (in the build up to the roses T20 game the other night).
Bess/Leach's (add any other spinner here) stock rises when Ali gets a bit of tap on the test scene but ultimately Ali has been the best proven spinner in an England shirt bar Swann in the past decade.
(http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/no-lies-detected-gif-9.gif)
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http://www.bcci.tv/news/2018/news/17504/we-play-on-any-kind-of-pitch-that-is-given-to-us-ravi-shastri (http://www.bcci.tv/news/2018/news/17504/we-play-on-any-kind-of-pitch-that-is-given-to-us-ravi-shastri)
Like this attitude.
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Really looking forward to the Hollies Stand this Friday!
Hopefully the weather stays like this and its a stunning days Cricket!
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Rashid and Ali in Bess and leach out
Joke
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So call ups for Mo as predicted but also for Porter and Rashid.
Sam Curran also keeps his place.
No Woakes, Leach or Bess apparently all due to fitness and lack of red ball cricket form etc...
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jul/26/adil-rashid-recalled-england-test-squad-india-cricket?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true
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more confused now. either im not getting it or the selectors don't know what they are doing
I just don't get how Bess was the best available last match because Leach was injured, now neither can get in as first choice....
don't make any sense to me
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Delighted Porter has got the nod, Rashid is maybe the right call, but leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
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more confused now. either im not getting it or the selectors don't know what they are doing
I just don't get how Bess was the best available last match because Leach was injured, now neither can get in as first choice....
don't make any sense to me
Although I don't agree with it, I can completely see how it's happened.
Since the Pakistan series finished Bess has only played 4 games including the lions game and has bowled limited overs and taken no wickets. Leach is even fewer.
This isn't their fault entirely Leach was injured and neither play white ball for Somerset. They also cancel each other out if Somerset only play 1 spinner.
All the while this is going on with England's Summer extravaganza of white ball cricket Rashid and Mo are bowling lots and doing great in a winning team etc...
So I can see how it's happened.
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I like Rashid and felt that post-Swann he was the man England should have backed over Moeen but it does send a bit of an odd message picking him now.
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Although I don't agree with it, I can completely see how it's happened.
Since the Pakistan series finished Bess has only played 4 games including the lions game and has bowled limited overs and taken no wickets. Leach is even fewer.
This isn't their fault entirely Leach was injured and neither play white ball for Somerset. They also cancel each other out if Somerset only play 1 spinner.
All the while this is going on with England's Summer extravaganza of white ball cricket Rashid and Mo are bowling lots and doing great in a winning team etc...
So I can see how it's happened.
yes, I get that, no one has played much red ball cricket thou. How many innings has Cook had? a couple.
in which case alex hales and Jason roy could be picked on the back of good one day performances,essentially the selectors are saying there's no difference and past performances in tests(the last test) count for not much.
I understand it, and I think it's massively unfair. personally I don't think the selectors know their bum from their elbow.
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Vaughan has piled in now
it's kicking off in Yorkshire.
t always does thou, are they historically the most combustable County? :)
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Jack Leach has had an exceptional run of bad luck which now leaves him short of bowling at the start of the series against India. Having broken his thumb before the first Test against Pakistan, Jack then suffered concussion on his return to county cricket. As a result, Jack has bowled only 37 overs in county or Lions cricket since first being injured. The selection panel felt it was too early for Jack to play in a Test match.
Dom made an outstanding all-round contribution in his debut series against Pakistan and impressed everyone with his character and competitiveness. For different reasons, unfortunately Dom has also found opportunities scarce in championship cricket.
But Rashid gets a game. I don't get it.
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Surely the scheduling of the County Championship fixtures plays a part here. If the ECB want players coming into a test series to have red ball form, then red ball county fixtures need to be happening right the way through the summer
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Clearly Rashid and Ali troubled the Indian batsmen in the ODI's probably more than anyone anticipated they would, and the selectors thought, why change something that seems to be working.
FWIW, India have a lot of right-handers, so selecting two off-spinners would be a brainless decision. So it was either going to be Leach or Rashid (or some other SLA or leggie), and I guess their gut instincts told them that Rashid might be the better bet. Whether they're right, who knows.
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Clearly the England selectors want Rashid in preference to Leach or Bess lets hope he has a good match because failure could mean he won't bother with red ball cricket contract and picking him was waste of time.
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Bess cant get in Somersets 4 day side and has been playing in the seconds.
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t always does thou, are they historically the most combustable County? :)
Somerset circa 1985 rivalled us, but otherwise, nah, we've got this one.
Its an odd squad, isn't it? Rashid might or might not be the right man for the job - his proclamations at the start of the season that he couldn't get up for long form cricket and refusal to do the necessary by playing the Roses match means that his selection has become a really dangerous and divisive one for the British game. In truth, the person it reflects worst on is Rashid himself - you can understand the selectors wanting all their options available, and you can understand Yorkshire's disillusionment with the situation. What is hard to fathom is why Rashid wouldn't go to the inconvenience of playing a single game to avoid this...
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Rashid could have turned the call down... if he was that disillusioned with red ball cricket he would have done, he just doesnt want the #countygrind
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Rashid could have turned the call down... if he was that disillusioned with red ball cricket he would have done, he just doesnt want the #countygrind
Yeah the problem seems to be between Rashid and Yorkshire rather than Rashid and red ball cricket.
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I think its a brave call and could turn out to be a great pick-anyone who whines about it would never back a leg spinner in their own side and should keep it shut!
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I can't see that Bess or Leach can have any complaints. Leach has been terribly unlucky to pick up two injuries having made his test debut over the winter but has played little competitive since and the international arena is not the place to regain form after injury. Bess was very fortunate to have played test cricket at this stage given his lack of experience and that he isn't a regular for his county. I am not sure that anyone could argue for his inclusion given that he is playing 2nd XI cricket
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Bess and Rashid do raised the question though as to whether someone should move sides time enhance their international prospects. In Bess' case, he isn't the first choice spinner for his county and it would be difficult to push for international inclusion if he isn't an automatic selection at first class level. In Rashid's case he played half his games at a ground where Shane Warne averaged 59 with the ball and where medium pace seamers on green pitches will bowl you to titles.
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I think its a brave call and could turn out to be a great pick-anyone who whines about it would never back a leg spinner in their own side and should keep it shut!
Nah that's rubbish, it's not about his ability. His performances in the ODIs arguably deserve the call up and I don't despite that.
It's the fact he categorically came out and said how he wasn't interested in playing 4 day/test cricket. Makes a total mockery of the whole county system.
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on the plus side whatever the rights and wrongs Rashid has given Vaughan a right hammering in the press which is good for a lot of us who are getting fed up with MV and his views
personally I think Smith is entitled to get availability for anyone qualified to play.
I don't however think Rashid will tour this winter and this whole thing will be short lived
looks like from his comments he is on his way out of Yorkshire too, which may suit both parties by the sounds of it, quite how valuable his is to another County if he doesn't play championship cricket is a mute point. :)
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If that ball he bowled at Kohli had just missed off stump, he wouldn't have been picked.
Ridiculous.
He can get away with the lack of consistency in ODI's because the field is spread. Long Hop? There's a fielder there. Full Toss? There's a fielder there. I reckon he'll bowl about 20 overs in the first test and get 2-100.
On an unrelated note, I'm going to give Gareth Southgate a call, see if I can get a game. I haven't played football for a few years, but I did score 70 not out at the weekend, and that's the same, right?
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I've always been of the belief that you can be as talented as you like and have every skill in the book, but if you don't have the right character or attitude for test match cricket then you wont last long. Well done to Rashid, but I suspect he and the England selectors will be left with egg on their faces.
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Does county cricket matter??
Hi Kevin, to get back in the test squad youll have to go back to the county game and score some runs
Kevin hold my beer
326 runs later in one innings
Sorry Kevin we didnt think youd actually do it, heres your p45..............
Also Yorkshire yes well give you a white ball contract Rashid, dont worry about the red ball stuff
What do you mean you wont play his red ball for us, disgraceful.......
Yorkshire could have sent him on his way and not offered him the white ball Contract. I dont see why people are getting so butthurt that he stuck to that contract when it came to the roses game??
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County. Championship. As in championship of counties. Which bit don't you understand?
If I was simply a pathway to getting in the England team, it might perhaps be called 'England Pathway'.
If the County Championship doesn't matter, imagine how totally insignificant your own cricket is. Perhaps you ought to talk about it a bit less?
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"I don't want to play red-ball cricket this year" is definitely a very different statement than "I don't want to play red-ball cricket this year, unless it's for England".
I very much doubt Rashid would have got a contract from Yorkshire if he'd said the latter.
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One of things that i think is the biggest part of this all is the fact that the last time Rashid played Tests he actually wasn't that great, and the difference between red and white ball spin bowling is huge. I realise the debate regarding the counties and him turning his back on red ball cricket but i think that actual argument is getting a little lost etc...
Some stats for you all - current main spin bowlers in the ODI ICC Rankings - ODI vs Test averages
Adil Rashid - ODI 30.8, Tests 42.7
Rashid Khan - ODI 14.4, Tests 77.0 (realise only played 1 test - but he still went miles in it!)
Kuldeep Yadav - ODI 19.3, Tests 20.7
Imran Tahir - ODI 24.8, Tests 40.2
Mitch Santner - ODI 33.9, Tests 37.0
Shadab Khan - ODI 25.6, Tests 48.2
Shakib Al Hasan - ODI 29.5, Tests 31.8
Graeme Cremer - ODI 30.2, Tests 45.6
Interesting the 2 below are the only ones with better Test averages
Ravi Ashwin - ODI 32.9, Tests 25.3
Mo Ali - ODI 45.0, Tests 40.6
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Doesn't that show that the difference between his ODI and test averages is mirrored by other spinners around the world? They may have a better bowling average in limited overs (which isn't surprising given that batting averages are also lower in limited overs games) but if they are the best option available to their country then they are likeky to be selected
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Doesn't that show that the difference between his ODI and test averages is mirrored by other spinners around the world? They may have a better bowling average in limited overs (which isn't surprising given that batting averages are also lower in limited overs games) but if they are the best option available to their country then they are likeky to be selected
Exactly....... the point is that moving from white to red ball for a spin bowler is completely different and difficult....... doesn't matter who, where, when.
It is a different pace, flight, field setting, patience, amount of overs, mentality etc... which is why many have and are currently failing.
Amazing spin bowlers like Tahir, Narine etc... simply not up to it in test cricket.
Also the same can be said the other way round, look at Ashwin (and Jadeja to a certain extent), he has been discarded by India in white ball cricket - to the point he was bowling leg spin in the IPL, but he will possibly/probably play in the tests.
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If Rashid has said to Yorkshire he would like to be considered for red ball cricket and then (the ECB said you must play) played last week this situation wouldn't be here.
I don't think he is that great, but Bess is in the twos and Leach hasn't played. Rashid has had international success.
It is what it is.
Worth noting that Root didn't want him in the squad.
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hmm interesting Buzz
rumours about his attitude previously
Root must know his character but with the lack of success in recent times you suspect Smith has a lot of clout and is not afraid to use it?
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Nah that's rubbish, it's not about his ability. His performances in the ODIs arguably deserve the call up and I don't despite that.
It's the fact he categorically came out and said how he wasn't interested in playing 4 day/test cricket. Makes a total mockery of the whole county system.
Nah now you are talking absolute cuck!
What do you know about spin bowlers and their mindset?
Bring up the quote where Rashid said he doesnt want to play test cricket..go on.. and you will still be talking rubbish.
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If he deserves the call up, he deserves the call up.
Simples.
Maybe this says it all about how we treat leg spinners in this country and why we have never had a decent one?
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Nah now you are talking absolute cuck!
What do you know about spin bowlers and their mindset?
Bring up the quote where Rashid said he doesnt want to play test cricket..go on.. and you will still be talking rubbish.
He said he didnt want to play 4 day cricket as his heart wasnt in it, for me thats saying the same about tests.
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This is a really interesting article from Jason Gillespie who obviously knows Rashid well. He says he thinks the problems really lie with the Rashid/Yorkshire relationship more than anything rather than Rashid and red ball cricket in general. And it all stems from the end of season game in 2016 that Rashid didn't play.
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/jul/27/adil-rashid-yorkshire-england-red-ball-cricket?__twitter_impression=true
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If he deserves the call up, he deserves the call up.
Simples.
Biggest missed point of all of this - Rashid was bobbins in tests last time he played, and that's why he hasn't played any more! He's improved a bit you suspect, but he's still going to get carted. Then you've got Porter or Curran, who with the best will in the world aren't going to really trouble test batsmen too much. So we've got Jimmy, Broad and Stokes with all the pressure on them, plus Root having to bowl. Good job none of them are injury prone or anything like that...
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Biggest missed point of all of this - Rashid was bobbins in tests last time he played, and that's why he hasn't played any more! He's improved a bit you suspect, but he's still going to get carted. Then you've got Porter or Curran, who with the best will in the world aren't going to really trouble test batsmen too much. So we've got Jimmy, Broad and Stokes with all the pressure on them, plus Root having to bowl. Good job none of them are injury prone or anything like that...
totally agree and the difference between test cricket and ODI are getting wider and wider. But at the end of the day its up to Rashid to prove everyone wrong. His comments about Vaughan were uncalled for and one of the reasons i like him as a pundit is it says it how it is. Poor Boycott must be fuming would love to here his opinion
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I don't know if this has been covered already, but what would the reaction had been if Rashid was approached and refused a call-up to the England Test team?
I am also not familiar with the county ins and outs, but if Yorkshire were so unhappy with him not wanting to play red ball cricket, why still keep him as part of there system?
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His comments about Vaughan were uncalled for and one of the reasons i like him as a pundit is it says it how it is.
Nah.
I think Rashid has shown nothing to suggest he won't be rubbish at test level but he's spot on about Vaughan. Vaughan is a poor quality Twitter troll who only gets people nodding along with his nonsense because he's famous and we should all applaud whenever someone points out that fact.
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I am also not familiar with the county ins and outs, but if Yorkshire were so unhappy with him not wanting to play red ball cricket, why still keep him as part of there system?
Exactly. Yorkshire offered him a white ball contract after Rashid said he didn't want to play first class games for them, they can't get annoyed now because Rashid isn't playing a first class game for them.
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Nah.
I think Rashid has shown nothing to suggest he won't be rubbish at test level but he's spot on about Vaughan. Vaughan is a poor quality Twitter troll who only gets people nodding along with his nonsense because he's famous and we should all applaud whenever someone points out that fact.
don't get me wrong some of what he says is nonsense, but what he said about Rashid is something we were all thinking. I don't have problem with Rashid accepting the test call up he would be a fool to say no. My problem is with selecting him in the first place
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Exactly. Yorkshire offered him a white ball contract after Rashid said he didn't want to play first class games for them, they can't get annoyed now because Rashid isn't playing a first class game for them.
Really?
Rashid made his approach in mid March. There was no time to get a replacement, so what option was there really, save telling him he was legally required to play all formats? Best of a bad situation.
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His comments about Vaughan were uncalled for and one of the reasons i like him as a pundit is it says it how it is.
Personally I thought that Rashid 's response to the abuse he has received from those connected to Yorkshire was fairly measured. Vaughan spends too much of his time these days with Robbie Savage as he has turned himself into football's version of Savage - a pointless bore desperately seeking to remain relevant by picking arguments.
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Personally I thought that Rashid 's response to the abuse he has received from those connected to Yorkshire was fairly measured. Vaughan spends too much of his time these days with Robbie Savage as he has turned himself into football's version of Savage - a pointless bore desperately seeking to remain relevant by picking arguments.
this is the view of most every Yorkshireman as well. Vaughan the player was one of us. Vaughan the media personality iS a Lancastrian Piers Morgan wannabe
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If he deserves the call up, he deserves the call up.
Simples.
Maybe this says it all about how we treat leg spinners in this country and why we have never had a decent one?
How does he deserve a call up ?? He hasnt played red ball Cricket and white ball is massively different. He isnt consistent and even the kohli dismissal was mainly becusee he was looking to be aggressive. Tests he will Just milk him and smash the crap that he does bowl..
He might do ok but this is yet another nail in the county championship. Now payers have seen buttler and Rashid get a gig without playing red ball (or doing well).. how many more will follow ..
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Rashid is in the England team because at the moment there's no one better in red ball white ball pink ball or tennis ball.
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Rashid is in the England team because at the moment there's no one better in red ball white ball pink ball or tennis ball.
Agreed. I can appreciate the point of principle, that it sends a poor message as to the value of the county championship. However, I don't see the pragmatic argument as to his ability. I can't see any alternative spinner who turns the ball away from the right hander who has shown better form on any format. I am sure that but for injury, Jack Leach would be in this squad instead of Rashid, but I haven't seen any credible alternative given that Leach has missed the majority of the season
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Rashid is in the England team because at the moment there's no one better in red ball white ball pink ball or tennis ball.
Good shout
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Do we now think Rashid is going to play though? After all it is Ed Smith that has picked the squad but it is Root that picks the team.
Is Mo or Rashid or are both going to play?
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I felt that Buttler was more of a punt than Rashid. Look how that has paid off! Rashid has his faults but is just about the best spinner we have. All wrist spinners bowl bad balls, unless you're Warne! Unfortunately they are all compared to him and obviously found wanting.
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I felt that Buttler was more of a punt than Rashid. Look how that has paid off! Rashid has his faults but is just about the best spinner we have. All wrist spinners bowl bad balls, unless you're Warne! Unfortunately they are all compared to him and obviously found wanting.
On some levels, correct. In a five man attack he probably is (he doesn't bowl enough first innings overs for a four man attack)
But...
...there is a principle here. Butler had a reasonable argument that he wanted to.play first class cricket but was drawn away on.other high profile commitments. Rashid actively avoided the first class game.
This isn't me speaking as a Yorkshire fan. He has missed at most two games. One was a bore draw with Kolpaks, the other we annihilated the Vile Weed. But as someone who cares about our county game, it is awful to think that the selectors have effectively sidelined it.
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Do we now think Rashid is going to play though? After all it is Ed Smith that has picked the squad but it is Root that picks the team.
Is Mo or Rashid or are both going to play?
They have gone with a squad to cover all bases depending on what they find when they arrive at Birmingham but, if the current weather holds, you would expect the pitch to start breaking up by day 5 even if it is green at the start of the game so I would be picking both spinners. Given the ability of Stokes, Ali and Rashid with the bat, the can afford to pick a 4 seamer, 2 spinner attack
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Looks very much like two spinners to me also.
If it's only one then dragged Rashid around as drinks carrier in the middle of the 2020 I dread to think what might kick off.
:)
I hope sir Geoff has recovered strongly, we don't want him with more heart problems.
You can imagine this would never of happened in his day
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Yep I feel Ed Smith really has put Root in an impossible position here. If they turn up at Edgbaston and it's got some grass on it or even if Root doesn't want to play 2 spinners, surely he is forced into playing Rashid whether he wants to or not. If Rashid doesn't play then I think the cricket world world would actually combust!
Personally if we go with 2 spinners I don't think we can afford it to be a 6 man attack with Curran/Porter playing as it means we will lose a batsman when our top order isn't that great anyways! It would need to be the 2 spinners with Broad, Anderson and Stokes.
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Yep I feel Ed Smith really has put Root in an impossible position here. If they turn up at Edgbaston and it's got some grass on it or even if Root doesn't want to play 2 spinners, surely he is forced into playing Rashid whether he wants to or not. If Rashid doesn't play then I think the cricket world world would actually combust!
Personally if we go with 2 spinners I don't think we can afford it to be a 6 man attack with Curran/Porter playing as it means we will lose a batsman when our top order isn't that great anyways! It would need to be the 2 spinners with Broad, Anderson and Stokes.
Yes a six man attack is too lop sided even if it is dry and you would think the wicket itself will be green at the start even if the outfield is not, this is England after all not Sharjah.if 5 bowlers can't do the job then 6 won't .
But forget the fact Rashid will play if we play two spinners, Rashid is playing if we only play one-surely that will happen you just can't imagine anything else.
Which leaves Root in reality with one choice so yes, whether he wants it or not. I don't think he wants Rashid in myself, no evidence just a feeling as mentioned by Buzz.
I would t be surprised if we only play one spinner and pick Porter because Root might be worried the Indians go after the spinners and he loses control in the field.
I think Cook was always reluctant to play Rashid for that exact reason.
Could be wrong thou :)
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I think after all what's been said and written all that matters now if Rashid does play he does well.
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Everyone talking about the England team because of Rashid but India have a few decisions to make as well and it will be interesting to see what side they put out.
No Bumrah or Kumar mean they have Yadav, Ishant and Shami really as their seam options (plus Pandya) and Shami went wicketless against Essex in the warm up.
The 3 spinners only bowled 11 overs between them and also went wicketless in the warm up game.
Then there's Darwan who got a pair and Pujara who only mustered 24 across both innings.
Not for 1 second saying they have problems but just not a straight forward selection.
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Everyone talking about the England team because of Rashid but India have a few decisions to make as well and it will be interesting to see what side they put out.
No Bumrah or Kumar mean they have Yadav, Ishant and Shami really as their seam options (plus Pandya) and Shami went wicketless against Essex in the warm up.
The 3 spinners only bowled 11 overs between them and also went wicketless in the warm up game.
Then there's Darwan who got a pair and Pujara who only mustered 24 across both innings.
Not for 1 second saying they have problems but just not a straight forward selection.
Pujara has hardly made a first class run since arriving here in April!
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1st view of the Edgbaston pitch.... not sure about 2 spinners..
https://twitter.com/GeorgeDobell1/status/1023965031053045760?s=19
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1st view of the Edgbaston pitch.... not sure about 2 spinners..
https://twitter.com/GeorgeDobell1/status/1023965031053045760?s=19
Surprised england havent left a lot of grass on, I presume they want the ball to nibble about
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Is Porters chances of playing getting a bit better?
Outfield looks like it might keep the ball in decent condition too....
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Porter and Ali miss out
Rashid players
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So England are playing 1 spinner and surprise surprise it's Rashid. Curran gets the nod over Porter.
England XI for first Test: Joe Root (capt), James Anderson, Jonny Bairstow (wk), Stuart Broad, Jos Buttler, Alastair Cook, Sam Curran, Keaton Jennings, Dawid Malan, Adil Rashid, Ben Stokes.
England v India: Adil Rashid named as hosts' only spinner for first Test - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/45017582 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/45017582)
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pretty much as expected. personally I would of like to have seen Porter as a new player.
I cannot see what Curran adds to the team other than a left armer so a different angle. Clearly the lad has talent but maybe more of a one day player to me.
the Indians are undercooked thou are might be vulnerable early test matches. I say might be because if they graft they have the talent to beat us at home.
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Nice of England to let Curran create some lovely footholes for Ashwin to bowl into against our bevy of left handers.
EDIT: Yes, I'm talking nonsense here. Going to leave this up as a reminder to myself that I'm an idiot.
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pretty much as expected. personally I would of like to have seen Porter as a new player.
I cannot see what Curran adds to the team other than a left armer so a different angle. Clearly the lad has talent but maybe more of a one day player to me.
the Indians are undercooked thou are might be vulnerable early test matches. I say might be because if they graft they have the talent to beat us at home.
Never agreed with this angle rubbish. Even an U12 knows that if you adjust your stance, you can make the "angle" of a left-arm over the same as any other bowler. Yes it has a minor effect on lbw's. But its minor at best and probably plays to the batsman's advantage. People who think you're more likely to nick off when the ball is "angled across you" just don't understand basic geometry.
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Nice of England to let Curran create some lovely footholes for Ashwin to bowl into against our bevy of left handers.
Does Ashwin turn it enough to make him a threat bowling wide of leg stump?
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Buttler vc according to the beeb!
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Nice of England to let Curran create some lovely footholes for Ashwin to bowl into against our bevy of left handers.
Will he be attempting to bowl them out from wide behind their legs?
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Pitiful decision to select Rashid. Too good for county cricket yet a fluke delivery to Kohli in an ODI sees him leapfrog Leach, Bess and Moeen.
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Does Ashwin turn it enough to make him a threat bowling wide of leg stump?
[/quoted]
Ashwin now also bowls pretty decent leg spin as well
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So England are playing 1 spinner and surprise surprise it's Rashid. Curran gets the nod over Porter.
England XI for first Test: Joe Root (capt), James Anderson, Jonny Bairstow (wk), Stuart Broad, Jos Buttler, Alastair Cook, Sam Curran, Keaton Jennings, Dawid Malan, Adil Rashid, Ben Stokes.
England v India: Adil Rashid named as hosts' only spinner for first Test - [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/45017582[/url] ([url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/45017582[/url])
England don't normally anounce their team until the morning of the match.
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They have done this time, on paper it's five proper bowlers and we bat deep with Curran and Rashid in.
Whether Rashid should be in or, has been pointed out by others, will do well based on past performances, we will find out.
One place maybe you could argue but we have the best players picked and that's all they can do.
England have won only one of the last nine, that's not good enough and we will be up against it here.
If Root bowls some overs as well, and India bat last we probably have our best chance-while the Indian batsmen are a bit undercooked.
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Jennings also dobbles a bit of needed.
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Erm Sam Currant Bun-why?! His military medos will be like a gentle bowling machine for Kohli and co! We desperately need Jofra Archer to qualify- any other genuine quicke out there?
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Erm Sam Currant Bun-why?! His military medos will be like a gentle bowling machine for Kohli and co! We desperately need Jofra Archer to qualify- any other genuine quicke out there?
Jamie porter is supposed to be sharp, if only he was in the squad
Jamie Overton is quick but injury troubled
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Porter isn't sharp, he's a good old fashioned English seamer.
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Jamie porter is supposed to be sharp, if only he was in the squad
Jamie Overton is quick but injury troubled
Porter bowls similar pace to Curran, low 80's generally
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I stand corrected, I thought Id read somewhere on a list of the quickest on the county scene!
Heyho!
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Erm Sam Currant Bun-why?! His military medos will be like a gentle bowling machine for Kohli and co! We desperately need Jofra Archer to qualify- any other genuine quicke out there?
This was written in January. It lists, Mark Wood, George Garton, Saqib Mahmood, Olly Stone, Tom Barber, Jamie Overton and Liam Plunkett
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/01/11/englands-fastest-bowlers-express-pacemen-could-help-joe-roots/amp/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/01/11/englands-fastest-bowlers-express-pacemen-could-help-joe-roots/amp/)
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I dunno how plunkett has not played more last couple of years, he's pretty quick
but roland jones probably was the one they wanted long term but a real bad injury scuppered that.
Porter whether he is quick enough or not could of been given a chance this game, by all reports he has been the best bowler over a couple of years
pace not always the answer at test level unless you are brett lee or ahktar where you can blast people out
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TRJ isn't very quick either, I always imagine Porter to be a similar bowler to him.
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I see Porter almost being groomed as the Jimmy replacement, not overly quick but moves it both ways. Wouldn't be surprised if he ends up opening for years to come.
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I see Porter almost being groomed as the Jimmy replacement, not overly quick but moves it both ways. Wouldn't be surprised if he ends up opening for years to come.
Yep definitely agree with this. At some point this series Jimmy will be rested and Porter will be his replacement.
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We're having a bat lads.
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might be sooner actually England talking about rotation of the bowlers for this series.5 tests in weeks is tough.
you would think Anderson,Broad might miss one test each
if it gets tight I wonder if we will actually do that thou. sri lanka in the winter might be tour for one or other of them to miss
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India play just Ashwin and drop Pujara. Rahul to bat 3.
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Rashid will of wanted to bowl last you would think
we need runs on the board thousand that has been our weakness recently
as in...big runs on good pitches
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I dunno how plunkett has not played more last couple of years, he's pretty quick
Me neither. I was particularly flummoxed as to why he wasn't part of the test squad in Australia over the winter when the conditions needed pace and bounce but instead we took a load of low 80s seam bowlers who were gun barrel straight in those conditions
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India have lost the plot, spin after 6 overs with the pitch doing a bit
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What do I know, masterstroke
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Cook gone bowled ashwin
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Jesus that in the 8th over.... this could get interesting later on.
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Root comes out wearing a CREAM jumper. NB finally sorting that out!
Even if we lose this match, at least we can take the positives from this.
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Root comes out wearing a CREAM jumper. NB finally sorting that out!
Even if we lose this match, at least we can take the positives from this.
Yep that was literally the 1st thing I noticed too!! Nice proper short sleeved cable knit!! Lovely.
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The wicket for those that haven't got access to the game
https://twitter.com/WisdenCricket/status/1024608215772880896?s=19
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Both sides maybe wishing that they had picked a second spinner now
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India will miss Kuldeep here, bad decision not to play him.
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Shami is bowling well. "Unlucky" Ishant also bowled well but he is not going to grow a brain now, is he? Other than Yadav other 3 have bowled well.
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bAHHH! Cricinfo playing up on my machine!
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What a Beauty from Ashwin to a left hander pitched turned past Cooks forward defensive bat and hits off stump
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Predictions now for most runs and wickets in the series?
I'm going:
Wickets: Jimmy
Runs: Root
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Does anyone have a safe link for watching online? Not at home at the moment
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83 for 1 Good morning for England
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Joe Root scores his 6000 th test match run in just 68 innings quickest to get there in terms of time 5 years and 231 days
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Is that the end of Malan?
Interestingly Joe Clarke can be seen with the England team in the dressing room and is obviously with them for the test match, but wasn't announced in the squad.
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he has got to have more time. we cant keep chopping and changing players
I think he is good enough and has shown enough to get longer. Clarke is a very good propect thou along with a couple of others
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He looks like a poor man's Gary Ballance to me. At least Ballance made some runs at test level before oppos worked him out. Not sure how Malan survived ahead of Tom Westley and James Vince in the middle order.
At the risk of sounding like Geoff Boycott, it is a concern that players come from county cricket to the international game with obvious technique faults
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Ed Smith has shown he isn't afraid of pulling the plug after 1 test as he did with Stoneman. If I was Malan I would be very concerned if he doesn't make 2nd innings runs.
There's also the fact that he will be the one to go if we play 2 spinners.
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He looks like a poor man's Gary Ballance to me. At least Ballance made some runs at test level before oppos worked him out. Not sure how Malan survived ahead of Tom Westley and James Vince in the middle order.
At the risk of sounding like Geoff Boycott, it is a concern that players come from county cricket to the international game with obvious technique faults
Its not a concern really because the likes of malan have techniques and mentalities for multi format Cricket. Its rare to find players capable of being technically good enough whilst also play limited overs cricket. Just look through people and youll find the flaws. Baring in mind white ball stuff now is different from white ball 5 years ago so players got away with more historically.
It is what it is, we either invest in producing players primarily for red ball or we accept limited overs produces brilliant ball striking but does limit your technical and mental ability generally (always exceptions)
Joe Clarke has flaws just like malan. He may come good.. he may just be abother that is found out.. Jennings again nicked off for not many but got lucky for example.. same flaw as before
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Its not a concern really because the likes of malan have techniques and mentalities for multi format Cricket. Its rare to find players capable of being technically good enough whilst also play limited overs cricket. Just look through people and youll find the flaws. Baring in mind white ball stuff now is different from white ball 5 years ago so players got away with more historically.
It is what it is, we either invest in producing players primarily for red ball or we accept limited overs produces brilliant ball striking but does limit your technical and mental ability generally (always exceptions)
Joe Clarke has flaws just like malan. He may come good.. he may just be abother that is found out.. Jennings again nicked off for not many but got lucky for example.. same flaw as before
Sorry don't agree about Jennings (I agree in general though). Jennings has changed his technique dramatically as shown on Sky. The ball he nicked was an absolute nut swinging across him and nothing to do with his previous problems. He left it excellently today outside off stump.
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Sorry don't agree about Jennings (I agree in general though). Jennings has changed his technique dramatically as shown on Sky. The ball he nicked was an absolute nut swinging across him and nothing to do with his previous problems. He left it excellently today outside off stump.
So his bat doesnt come down across the line of the ball still ? Leaving well is a change but his basic technical flaws vs the moving ball is still there. County Cricket doesnt expose it so he gets away with it, hell, he got 40+ today (after being dropped) so this Indian attack didnt expose it overly either
Youd expect philander, McGrath, steyn (a few years ago), Anderson, boult etc might do for him
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So his bat doesnt come down across the line of the ball still ? Leaving well is a change but his basic technical flaws vs the moving ball is still there. County Cricket doesnt expose it so he gets away with it, hell, he got 40+ today (after being dropped) so this Indian attack didnt expose it overly either
Youd expect philander, McGrath, steyn (a few years ago), Anderson, boult etc might do for him
Those bowlers you quote will pretty much do for anyone let alone Jennings.
I fear your problem is more to do with CC/red ball cricket vs white ball cricket (like it normally is) than it is with specifically with Jennings.
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So his bat doesnt come down across the line of the ball still ? Leaving well is a change but his basic technical flaws vs the moving ball is still there. County Cricket doesnt expose it so he gets away with it, hell, he got 40+ today (after being dropped) so this Indian attack didnt expose it overly either
Youd expect philander, McGrath, steyn (a few years ago), Anderson, boult etc might do for him
you'd expect they might do for prety much everyone tbh.
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Is that the end of Malan?
Interestingly Joe Clarke can be seen with the England team in the dressing room and is obviously with them for the test match, but wasn't announced in the squad.
Didn't understand the Malan selection should have gone with Ali wouldn't have lost much with the bat also more chance of taking 20 wickets
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Chuff sake root.
You really dont like converting in tests.
Malans in the side as he was our best batsman in aus, there hoping hell come out of his current lul.
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Great partnership...... shocking running..... awful celebration from Kohli, he really can be a tool sometimes
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Root should have said Nooooo
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Kohli, what a bellend...
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Great partnership...... shocking running..... awful celebration from Kohli, he really can be a tool sometimes
the cricket gods have noted that from Kholi
and so has Jimmy Anderson :)
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Great partnership...... shocking running..... awful celebration from Kohli, he really can be a tool sometimes
Was varat blowing Joe a kiss...
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Those bowlers you quote will pretty much do for anyone let alone Jennings.
I fear your problem is more to do with CC/red ball cricket vs white ball cricket (like it normally is) than it is with specifically with Jennings.
Yes, Jennings is technically perfect. Listen to holding, he picks it up numerous times vs shami
Jesus., sure I like red ball but sometimes you guys dont half have blinkers on.
Root - what a waste and what a stupid piece of running and calling. Maybe a mistake.. maybe a symptom of the aggressive running ingrained in modern limited overs players... should have said no but he trusted Bairstow I suppose and mistakes happen.
Kohli is a ..... but then so are a lot of players including Englands .
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Oh dear, India's day now after having lost the toss.
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Bairstow gone now
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Shame to lose 2 crucial wickets in such a short space of time when we were going along nicely
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Make that 3 :( :(
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Fearsome middle order that.......
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All Bairstow's fault, this
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Buttler misses a straight one. Ali would be useful right now
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1 brings 3. Oh dear
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Gunshot wound to your plates 'o meat
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Its not a concern really because the likes of malan have techniques and mentalities for multi format Cricket. Its rare to find players capable of being technically good enough whilst also play limited overs cricket. Just look through people and youll find the flaws. Baring in mind white ball stuff now is different from white ball 5 years ago so players got away with more historically.
It is what it is, we either invest in producing players primarily for red ball or we accept limited overs produces brilliant ball striking but does limit your technical and mental ability generally (always exceptions)
Joe Clarke has flaws just like malan. He may come good.. he may just be abother that is found out.. Jennings again nicked off for not many but got lucky for example.. same flaw as before
I would agree that there are exceptional ball strikers like Alex Hales, Jason Roy and Eoin Morgan who excel at limited overs format but are can be exposed in red ball cricket. Then there are guys like Ballance and Malan who could be called multi format cricketers only on the sense that they don't particular stand out in any format of the international game. In Malan's case, I can't see anything about his technical issues against the red ball which would be a strength in the limited overs game.
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All Bairstow's fault, this
A little harsh. Its still not a disaster for englsnd as buttler is a pure luxury player anyway. A lot rests on the tail just hanging in with stokes and stokes playing a long test class innings rather than just biffing
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Didn't understand the Malan selection should have gone with Ali wouldn't have lost much with the bat also more chance of taking 20 wickets
Me neither. Ali compares favourably with Malan with the bat, let alone the option he brings as a second spinner
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A little harsh. Its still not a disaster for englsnd as buttler is a pure luxury player anyway. A lot rests on the tail just hanging in with stokes and stokes playing a long test class innings rather than just biffing
He made that call. There should be no such thing as a luxury player in test cricket either.
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What would you take as a 1st innings score now?
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He made that call. There should be no such thing as a luxury player in test cricket either.
Well hes hardly there for his test match batting .. and he doesnt keep.. doesnt bowl.. hes there to provide explosive hitting if englsnd can get a good platform. Which englsnd today could have done but have had a middle order brain fart.
Believe it or not, having buttler at 7 is awesome .. IF we had six genuine test quality bats ahead of him to provide that consistent platform to launch from. The flaky ness and inconsistency of our top six batters is why buttler is currently a luxury
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What would you take as a 1st innings score now?
400is still on. Just needs sensible test match Cricket
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Tame from stokes, all hopes gone this innings. New ball due too, cant see them making 280
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Umm.. stokes...
Yeah..
Thats bloody poor for someone who seems to be touted as a test top six batter. Too aggressive . Just stop it .. why does it have to always go for a run a ball ffs .. its not bloody white ball
Of course, he question is should kohli face a disciplinary as he gave a send off ?
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Disciplinary action for blowing kisses or mike drop? People get away with much worse.
It just adds little spice to the game.
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Englands cricket is the type of cricket that loses test matches Jennings plays on Bairstow chops on Root run out
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With the Stokes dismissal... surely Sam Curran needs to be stronger and stand his ground and give Ashwin the shoulder there doesn't he? I am in no way excusing the shot by the way.
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With the Stokes dismissal... surely Sam Curran needs to be stronger and stand his ground and give Ashwin the shoulder there doesn't he? I am in no way excusing the shot by the way.
Hed be given out obstructing the field. Sure dont move out th way but if you obstruct the fielder youre gone
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I'm afraid this is very poor from us, We are making the same mistakes over and over and are a bang average team.
We seem to be a naive team, top class batsman in other teams nail it after a decent start !
Too much PR stuff from Root and the management, we need some straight talking Nasser type lose the plot rant! :-)
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Hed be given out obstructing the field. Sure dont move out th way but if you obstruct the fielder youre gone
Yes obviously don't obstruct him so much that you would be given out. But if Curran just stands were he is and is strong enough then Ashwin doesn't catch that.
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I'm afraid this is very poor from us, We are making the same mistakes over and over and are a bang average team.
We seem to be a naive team, top class batsman in other teams nail it after a decent start !
Too much PR stuff from Root and the management, we need some straight talking Nasser type lose the plot rant! :-)
I can't help but think that the behind the scenes people have a lot to answer for. I know that it falls on the players first and foremost but the sooner we are shot of Baylis, Ramprakash etc... the better
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I'm afraid this is very poor from us, We are making the same mistakes over and over and are a bang average team.
We seem to be a naive team, top class batsman in other teams nail it after a decent start !
Too much PR stuff from Root and the management, we need some straight talking Nasser type lose the plot rant! :-)
And yet most on here would call many of our players top class.. world class.. we cant have it both ways.. we either have half a team of top class or world class test players are we are over rating them and people need to be more honest. Maybe we are to blame ? Maybe we believe the media hype (remember they are paid to hype players up) and then expect too much from players who arent quite as good as we are led to believe .. or maybe they are that good and they just cba ?
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Yes obviously don't obstruct him so much that you would be given out. But if Curran just stands were he is and is strong enough then Ashwin doesn't catch that.
Intentionally getting in the way regardless is obstruction. Everyone would know what hes done so hed be given. Its not football just yet, although its getting there
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Wait till the other side bats on the same pitch.
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Wait till the other side bats on the same pitch.
Im not expecting this Indian batting to do much better. When is the last time India played swing well after all..
Root and Bairstow showed that if you apply yourself you can bat long so thats what the top six need to learn and become more consistent
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We will be all out in the morning for 303, Currant to end on 40*
Jimmy to have a field day and Broad to be poo (again).
Rashid picks up 3 cheap wickets from the tail
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And yet most on here would call many of our players top class.. world class.. we cant have it both ways.. we either have half a team of top class or world class test players are we are over rating them and people need to be more honest. Maybe we are to blame ? Maybe we believe the media hype (remember they are paid to hype players up) and then expect too much from players who arent quite as good as we are led to believe .. or maybe they are that good and they just cba ?
Actually disagree slightly despite the forum being coated off recently for too much kit @WalkingWicket37 , all living in Surrey(see other thread) and driving Porsches (!) most of us don't believe the hype constantly sprouted in the media. I think the majority of us think we are pretty average.
I don't mean to rant but I see us making the same errors over and over again, we do not score enough runs, and havnt for ages...
As far as the players go.....I don't think there are many better players available, we pretty much have the best playing- it's the mindset and yes the coaches, we have to get tougher.
We are already relying on our bowlers to help us out...300 ain't enough regardless of how many India get.
I'm going to sit on my balcony overlooking the Thames and calm down...no not in Surrey. :)
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I can't help but think that the behind the scenes people have a lot to answer for. I know that it falls on the players first and foremost but the sooner we are shot of Baylis, Ramprakash etc... the better
It seems clear to me that Bayliss' priority is one day cricket, in particular next year's world cup. We have stagnated in test cricket but made huge progress in the white ball game. Given that Bayliss has already announced that he is stepping down next year, there is certainly an argument for Bayliss to be replaced as the head coach of the test team and allowed to concentrate on the limited overs side
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All Bairstow's fault, this
The run out was a poor judgment call but those things happen. However, having ran out Root, to get out in the way he did was dreadful from a senior player
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We will be all out in the morning for 303, Currant to end on 40*
Jimmy to have a field day and Broad to be poo (again).
Rashid picks up 3 cheap wickets from the tail
Im going to ask you for investment advice tomorrow if this all comes true . Love the specificity!
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There was a stat read out on Sky yesterday during the cricket about England's average first innings score over the past 10 test matches or so. I want to say the average England 1st innings over that period was 288. I doubt we will dominate many test matches with that 1st innings average. We haven't been great in test matches for quite some time now, especially with the bat. Forgetting the players that we actually have in the team there aren't that many players in County cricket knocking down the door saying 'Pick Me!, Pick Me'. Even when we were a very poor test side we had players averaging 50+ in county cricket and bowlers averaging under 25. We are an exceptional one day side but a bang average test side. Chances are we are in for a hard winter in Sri Lanka and also in West Indies. I don't know what the specific answer is, maybe there is so much focus on white ball cricket to the detriment of the first class game. The point I'm trying to make (in a very long winded way) is this is not a sudden decline in how we are batting in test matches. I do think some of our selections have been strange with players with bang average first class records getting picked (I know there are exceptions like Vaughan and Tres) to play in test matches. Let's just hope that the new selection process gets busy very quickly. But players are just one factor, the current structure of domestic cricket needs a serious review (again).
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The way we play first class cricket has gone to pot. A batsman can get 15 games including tour matches, but plays all but three before May 20th and after August bank holiday, with the others scattered amongst the hit and giggle. It's not conducive to technique when you are getting on with it before the one with your name on it comes along...
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Playing county cricket at the beginning and end of the cricket season does not produce test players.
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The simple fact is that for a number of reasons (lots mentioned by everyone on here) we must accept that we are not a good TEST team.
We are 5th in the rankings and quite possibly going lower as Sri Lanka are 6th and we are definitely going to struggle over there in the winter.
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Bairstow (all praise him and make up offerings unto his mightyness) is a superb player, but does seem prone to a succession of brain-farts at crucial moments, often nicking off going hard at one just after another wicket has fallen.
There is a flip side to all this hyper-aggression I suppose.
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Bairstow (all praise him and make up offerings unto his mightyness) is a superb player, but does seem prone to a succession of brain-farts at crucial moments, often nicking off going hard at one just after another wicket has fallen.
There is a flip side to all this hyper-aggression I suppose.
Which is why he's best suited to batting at 7
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The way we play first class cricket has gone to pot. A batsman can get 15 games including tour matches, but plays all but three before May 20th and after August bank holiday, with the others scattered amongst the hit and giggle. It's not conducive to technique when you are getting on with it before the one with your name on it comes along...
The whole system is knackered. We need to think very carefully about whether we should be producing format-specific specialists or all-round cricketers, and how we go about doing this - the pathway players move onto starts early, in the late teens, so do we need to be categorising players at that age into red-ball or white-ball specialists and coaching them accordingly.
As a specific example, for whatever reason England seem to have plenty of young talented white ball batsmen - Buttler, Roy, and Hales being the 3 most obvious - but scarcely anyone with the defensive technique to bat out a session in a test match more often than not. Presumably B, R, H were all being taught white-ball skills as teenagers, and that's why they're so good at it now... but 20 years ago they would have been focusing on red ball skills instead.
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Which is why he's best suited to batting at 7
He might be if we could find a decent top five without him.
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Bairstow is wasted at 7, 5/6 is where he should be.
They were saying yesterday that in his career he's been involved in 20 runouts, 4 of them being him.
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Bairstow is wasted at 7, 5/6 is where he should be.
Averages 29 in the top 5 with 0 tons, 42 at 7 with 3 tons... where's he wasted again? ;)
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And yet most on here would call many of our players top class.. world class.. we cant have it both ways.. we either have half a team of top class or world class test players are we are over rating them and people need to be more honest. Maybe we are to blame ? Maybe we believe the media hype (remember they are paid to hype players up) and then expect too much from players who arent quite as good as we are led to believe .. or maybe they are that good and they just cba ?
Who exactly is world class in our team? Root is a decent bat and would get into most England lineups but he isn't good enough to carry the load by himself. Bairstow is a decent counter-attacking keeper-batsman in the Prior/Stewart mold but is batting a place too high. Who else? Cook was past it about 5 years ago and now scores less than 20 more often than not. All the other batsmen are county standard at best who wouldn't have got a sniff of the England team 20 years ago. Most of our promising young batsmen are being coached into T20 hitters. There are no more Strauss's or Trotts coming through because no-one bats like that anymore, with solid defences and only a handful of attacking shots.
Anderson (especially) and Broad (to a lesser extent) are in the tail-end of long and distinguished careers but as a pair don't actually have stats much better than say, Gough and Caddick. Stokes is massively over-rated and is a complete psycho so can't be much fun to share a dressing room with. The other seamers are all either slow, inaccurate or injury-prone. For a variety of reasons, mainly down to the way we penalise county pitches that turn with fines and points deductions, England produce a decent spinner roughly once every 30 years.
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Yes obviously don't obstruct him so much that you would be given out. But if Curran just stands were he is and is strong enough then Ashwin doesn't catch that.
That's a fine line. Given that Roy (? I think it was Roy) was given out in fair more tenuous circumstances for running at a funny angle across the pitch, I don't think the umpires would have much time for Curran "accidentally" dipping his shoulder and blocking Ashwin's way.
"The striker is out Obstructing the field should wilful obstruction or distraction by either batsman prevent a catch being completed"
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There was a stat read out on Sky yesterday during the cricket about England's average first innings score over the past 10 test matches or so. I want to say the average England 1st innings over that period was 288. I doubt we will dominate many test matches with that 1st innings average. We haven't been great in test matches for quite some time now, especially with the bat. Forgetting the players that we actually have in the team there aren't that many players in County cricket knocking down the door saying 'Pick Me!, Pick Me'. Even when we were a very poor test side we had players averaging 50+ in county cricket and bowlers averaging under 25. We are an exceptional one day side but a bang average test side. Chances are we are in for a hard winter in Sri Lanka and also in West Indies. I don't know what the specific answer is, maybe there is so much focus on white ball cricket to the detriment of the first class game. The point I'm trying to make (in a very long winded way) is this is not a sudden decline in how we are batting in test matches. I do think some of our selections have been strange with players with bang average first class records getting picked (I know there are exceptions like Vaughan and Tres) to play in test matches. Let's just hope that the new selection process gets busy very quickly. But players are just one factor, the current structure of domestic cricket needs a serious review (again).
Its a systematic thing. The drop-off in quality is down to a number of causes
1) Up until about 2014, the Lions used to be a conveyor belt of good young cricketers into test cricket. Now they are poorly managed, poorly coached and have stopped producing any decent cricketers whatsoever.
2) From the mid 2000s, young players started dedicating time to learning white ball specific skills. This was time they were no longer focusing on the traditional red ball skills. We're now seeing the result of that now.
3) The domestic schedule is a joke, the CC being played almost entirely in April and September makes it completely unfit for purpose, and as a result the standard has dropped off. We need to do something about this, and fast.
4) There are simply less people playing cricket and have been for a decade. Less young players playing means less talented young players coming through. Eventually, that is going to filter through to the national team. We're now seeing the impact of removing cricket from FTA tv.
The England team were good but inconsistent from the late 90s to the late 2000s, were genuinely consistently excellent for a few years from ~2009 to 2013, but there was a culture of bullying and micromanagement in the dressing room that eventually exploded in acrimony in 2013/14. Since then, and despite having some generally weak oppositions to play, we've been absolutely dog (No Swearing Please).
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Averages 29 in the top 5 with 0 tons, 42 at 7 with 3 tons... where's he wasted again? ;)
And how many times has he played at 5?
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And how many times has he played at 5?
That was his 22nd innings at 5 I believe
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And how many times has he played at 5?
Averages 42 at 6 as well tbf all the numbers point against him batting at 5
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Forgotten about the short ball? Not seen a single one
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Averages 42 at 6 as well tbf all the numbers point against him batting at 5
Bloke's really bloody good at 7, and scores tons there. Not very easy to find those! Batsmen who can average in the 20s at 5, on the other hand, we have plenty of those.
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Anyone watching it - did Broad bowl poocakes?
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Sammy you beauty!
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Bloke's really bloody good at 7, and scores tons there. Not very easy to find those! Batsmen who can average in the 20s at 5, on the other hand, we have plenty of those.
are you saying Dr Edge we play one keeper batsman at 7-bairstow and Butler plays as a specialist higher up(are you sure?) or not at all and they pick someone else.
Butler is playing as a specialist batsman(top 5) if that's where you coming from.......
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Curran steaming through these.
Thought he was fodder.......
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Sam 'average' Curran, you beauty!
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SAM CURRAN
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Who exactly is world class in our team? Root is a decent bat and would get into most England lineups but he isn't good enough to carry the load by himself. Bairstow is a decent counter-attacking keeper-batsman in the Prior/Stewart mold but is batting a place too high. Who else? Cook was past it about 5 years ago and now scores less than 20 more often than not. All the other batsmen are county standard at best who wouldn't have got a sniff of the England team 20 years ago. Most of our promising young batsmen are being coached into T20 hitters. There are no more Strauss's or Trotts coming through because no-one bats like that anymore, with solid defences and only a handful of attacking shots.
Anderson (especially) and Broad (to a lesser extent) are in the tail-end of long and distinguished careers but as a pair don't actually have stats much better than say, Gough and Caddick. Stokes is massively over-rated and is a complete psycho so can't be much fun to share a dressing room with. The other seamers are all either slow, inaccurate or injury-prone. For a variety of reasons, mainly down to the way we penalise county pitches that turn with fines and points deductions, England produce a decent spinner roughly once every 30 years.
Yet again SLA watching a completely different game to the rest of us
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Anyone watching it - did Broad bowl poocakes?
Also need to know
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Typical India...always struggle against the newbies. Wonder if it is because they don't do much research into them..
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Typical India...always struggle against the newbies. Wonder if it is because they don't do much research into them..
Can't be a shortage of video footage of SCurran bowling, he's been about a while now.
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Decent first over from Rashid...
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Yet again SLA watching a completely different game to the rest of us
Meh. Whatever. If you don't see the many and profound weaknesses in this England team, then you're either in a state of patriotic denial or you simply don't know much about cricket, full stop.
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Can't be a shortage of video footage of SCurran bowling, he's been about a while now.
Not like its a particularly different action either.....
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are you saying Dr Edge we play one keeper batsman at 7-bairstow and Butler plays as a specialist higher up(are you sure?) or not at all and they pick someone else.
Butler is playing as a specialist batsman(top 5) if that's where you coming from.......
Yep, either Buttler is worth his place as a batsman and should therefore be in the top 5 or he isn't and you pick someone else.
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TMS suggesting Broad was bowling in the high 80s. Unexpected, but a good sign perhaps.
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TMS suggesting Broad was bowling in the high 80s. Unexpected, but a good sign perhaps.
He was clocked at 89 been a while since hes done that for England
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Yep, either Buttler is worth his place as a batsman and should therefore be in the top 5 or he isn't and you pick someone else.
forum curse he's off with a damaged finger! personally I would pick him but can totally see your point of view there
you mean a 'luxury player' I think. totally see that.
I would have Butler keeping and Bairstow as a specialist bat but can see straight away that thinking reduces our options of playing an extra batsman/extra bowler....
so you can understand why we want Bairstow doing both in this team
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He was clocked at 89 been a while since hes done that for England
Apparently Curran was bowling 85/86? Not watching but thats fast for him
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Fascinating watch this Anderson vs Kohli battle. You can literally see Kohli intently trying as hard as possible to rein it in and leave it outside off whilst Anderson bowls 5th stump etc...
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Apparently Curran was bowling 85/86? Not watching but thats fast for him
I saw from 12-1 he was at 82/83
Quicker than jimmy and swinging it more
I read some where 55% more
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Rahane gone.... getting proper interesting now
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Stokesy!!
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Will kohli survivecthis from Jimmy?
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Stokes takes his 100 th test wicket
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Absolute examination of Kohli here by Anderson, you've got to feel that almost any other batsman in the world would have been long gone by now.
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2 drops!! Kohli by Malan the big one.
The Anderson vs Kohli battle is why I love test cricket. 2 of the best cricketers in the world in a massive battle.
No limit on overs, so no seeing him off, but no runs to worry about.
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2 drops!! Kohli by Malan the big one.
The Anderson vs Kohli battle is why I love test cricket. 2 of the best cricketers in the world in a massive battle.
No limit on overs, so no seeing him off, but no runs to worry about.
Nooooo...
For those watching, is it great bowling or s**t batting?
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Jimmy shows why he's the worlds number 1 at what he does only to see Malan drop Kholi
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Now Cook drops one
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Nooooo...
For those watching, is it great bowling or s**t batting?
Currently the ball is swinging, Indians struggling.
england putting it where they need to for once.
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Nooooo...
For those watching, is it great bowling or s**t batting?
Really High class bowling for the most part. Really holding to their plans and frustrating the batsman. If only we could flipping catch!!!!
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Jimmy shows why he's the worlds number 1 at what he does only to see Malan drop Kholi
unquestionably the best...we ...have...had....
agreed Alan? :-)
be nice if we started catching thou
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Broad looks absolutely innocuous! Anderson and Stokes moving it all over the place and Broad completely gun barrel straight!
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Yeah we was bowling well till they bought broad back on.....
Curran not yet bowled since lunch!
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If only Chris Woakes was playing, he'd be having a field day with the ball doing bits...
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One of the best spells Ive seen in a long time - what a spell from stokes
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Put Broad to the sword.
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Curran back on an hour and 20mins after dinner..... wicket!!
Five for on for the young un!
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Waqar esque. Why even review that?
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For all the talent that KL Rahul possesses, he seems to lack consistency. I know its early days, but cant remember him ever being consistent in his performances. Not sure if dropping Pujara was such a good idea in the first test. In conditions like these, you need a Pujara who is happy to leave stuff all day and make the bowlers bowl to him.
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Kohli dropped again....
Harder chance for malan........ probably held with less gap between the slips there
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Kohli is surely the most dropped batsman in the world?! I have seen a few matches where he is dropped a few times before getting a big score.
Perhaps is abit of psychology where he fielders are nervous taking the catch
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Psychologically the 1st Kohli drop off Anderson could be huge, because if he walks back to the changing rooms with not many after nicking off to Anderson again that means so much in the context of the series.
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Curran surprised a lot of people! Seems to have put on a years from the Pakistan series!!
Either than or the speed gun has been cranked up an MPH or two! Broad at 88???
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Deserved that, has Jimmy
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Jimmy deserved that good length hit the top of off stump
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Is Joe Root the worst current captain for reviews?
He seems to get more wrong than not, is there a stat for this anywhere?
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Is Joe Root the worst current captain for reviews?
He seems to get more wrong than not, is there a stat for this anywhere?
Angelo Mathews during his SL tenure
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Psychologically the 1st Kohli drop off Anderson could be huge, because if he walks back to the changing rooms with not many after nicking off to Anderson again that means so much in the context of the series.
It does we can say Anderson has won the morale victory but it counts for nothing if Kholi gets a big one
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Is Joe Root the worst current captain for reviews?
He seems to get more wrong than not, is there a stat for this anywhere?
Bairstow definitely doesn't help. If you watch him he is like an excited school kid behind the stumps when they think about a review, so Root has no chance because Bairstow has the best view. Both times today you could see that Jimmy didn't actually want to review it!
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It does we can say Anderson has won the morale victory but it counts for nothing if Kholi gets a big one
Unlikely to get a big one when the other 10 blokes can't hold a bat
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Watching Kohli bat with the tail it gives me more and more concern that Root hasn't got a clue what he's doing.
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true, but a bit of a tit or not
Kholi is a class act with bat in hand.
he is fighting us on his own
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Watching Kohli bat with the tail it gives me more and more concern that Root hasn't got a clue what he's doing.
he doesn't. England time and again think they can give the captaincy to the best players and it just don't work.
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Kohli 100.... Malan owes a few here!!
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absolute class from Kholi
a ton and nearly half his teams runs
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Classy knock from Kohli in testing conditions. Disappointed he didnt do the mic drop celebration for his 100.
Him and smith are a miles apart from the rest
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Unlikely to get a big one when the other 10 blokes can't hold a bat
That drop by Malan when He was on 21 as not only allowed varat to dominate and score big in this match but as probably set him up for the series.
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England clueless on how to stop Kholi getting a single and keeping strike.
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Root bowling stokes into the ground. Poor captaincy
Extraordinary effort from Kohli to reduce the lead
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Root is not captain material. He is also a bit immature - bat drop, the high hip dab with woods. His counterparts are serious and intense people.
Benji should be the captain.
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One down. That is what happens when you do not have enough first innings runs
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One down. That is what happens when you do not have enough first innings runs
Also a decent ball, pitch leg hit off same ball as first innings!
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Root is not captain material. He is also a bit immature - bat drop, the high hip dab with woods. His counterparts are serious and intense people.
Benji should be the captain.
Most of that in the one dayers where he isnt captain
Dont mind him relaxing and having a laugh when he isnt captain
Should have brought Curran back for stokes though
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Well then we really did balls that up. True masterclass from Kohli yes but also 92 runs for the last 2 wkts! Sharma & Yadav contributing just 6. Surely we have to bowl better at those 2!!
Malan in the hole to the tune of 128 runs... who's backing him to make those up? Just shows you what proper batsman do they make you pay if you give them a life etc...
And after that ball from Ashwin I bet all our left handers are dying to get in!!
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Yes they get in and make match winning innings. This game has swung quite a bit, they have the momentum
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Also a decent ball, pitch leg hit off same ball as first innings!
Yes very true.cook has got 2 cracking deliveries
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Rashid will need to justify his selection in the fourth innings with ball turning. Could silence the critics if he takes a few key wickets
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Classy knock from Kohli in testing conditions. Disappointed he didnt do the mic drop celebration for his 100.
Him and smith are a miles apart from the rest
Williamson?
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Have to put Williamson in that conversation hes a class act
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England clueless on how to stop Kholi getting a single and keeping strike.
This. We let Kohli score an extra 50 runs by poor game management.
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Kohli, granted he gave a couple of chances and if you don't take them it tough sh..., displays that relentless pursuit of scoring runs. Once it essentially became a one day situation its game over as he's the greatest limited overs player of all time.
Kohli and Smith a clear margin ahead of Williamson, whom as great as he is will never take the game away from you like the other two. Root is another level below Williamson.
Rashid was pretty average, lucky to get a tail ender Ishant. Kohli had him covered easily and rather fortunate that Kohli put a long hop into Broad's hands. There's no fear factor when Rashid bowls.
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Kohli and Smith a clear margin ahead of Williamson, whom as great as he is will never take the game away from you like the other two. Root is another level below Williamson.
Spot on with that. Big fan of Williamson and would back him on a green top but the other 2 are a class apart.
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Rashid will be judged on the forth innings....if we have enough runs that is
Totally agreed on the big four. Root is in the group but last. I like Williamson because he is technically superb
But kholi and smith are ahead for sure.
It's a shame I think Root needs everything cleared out of his way to be as good as he can. I genuinely think he could be the best we have had for a while, up there with KP and Gooch.
Today showed up why we have won one of the last nine matches. We are too soft and too green in five day cricket
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Kohli is not using a Keeley bat.
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Kohli is not using a Keeley bat.
Using a SS - left the sticker on the top of the handle
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Poor showing from the openers.
Should have slowed down the game, change of gloves, bats etc to ensure the minimum number of overs where bowled. Instead India rattled through a couple of overs and then got the wicket at the end.
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Obviously Kohli and Smith are superb, but I honestly think Williamson is just about their equal. Have to remember he's not got the supporting cast the others have and has done it everywhere he's played. Genuine class act.
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Please note I didn't say Williamson wasn't absolutely world class, I said I rate Smith/Kohli higher as they gave the ability to take the game away from the opposition. This is something I rate importantly whereas others may not.
If I was picking a world XI Williamson Kohli and Smith would all make the cut.
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This test is perfectly poised though. Love watching Ashwin bowl, we've got to put something together, great chance for Jennings, Malan et Al to really prove themselves.
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I think Malan owes us a few ! :)
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That drop by Malan when He was on 21 as not only allowed varat to dominate and score big in this match but as probably set him up for the series.
It seems a curse of England in recent times that those batsman in the side contributing nothing in terms of runs are also the ones letting the side down time and again when we are in the field. Malan will be be lucky to see out this series but he has certainly done his utmost to ensure that the pressure Kohli was under both in terms of his record in England and his record against Anderson has been released for the tests that foĺlow this
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Obviously Kohli and Smith are superb, but I honestly think Williamson is just about their equal. Have to remember he's not got the supporting cast the others have and has done it everywhere he's played. Genuine class act.
I agree same class of player and he's not dick head like the other pair, Kohli especially.
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Saw an absolutely crazy stat from Kohli's innings -
Anderson bowled 74 balls to Kohli, who made only 18 runs off them. The other 131 he scored came in the 151 deliveries Kohli faced from everyone else.
I know he got dropped but that is a ridiculous amount of mental strength to go through when facing Anderson and then be able to capitalise and go up the gears against everyone else.
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Saw an absolutely crazy stat from Kohli's innings -
Anderson bowled 74 balls to Kohli, who made only 18 runs off them. The other 131 he scored came in the 151 deliveries Kohli faced from everyone else.
I know he got dropped but that is a ridiculous amount of mental strength to go through when facing Anderson and then be able to capitalise and go up the gears against everyone else.
Mental strength against Anderson ? Or just hoping to survive against him with the assistance of Malan etc.
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Mental strength against Anderson ? Or just hoping to survive against him with the assistance of Malan etc.
As I said I know he was dropped but the mental strength to battle through and not just give it away with some flirty cover drive attempt (after the drop) when you are that under the pump, complete examination of your new technique you are trying after being shocking last time out etc.. losing wickets at the other end. That is the sign of great batting.
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What are everyone's predictions how today will go?
The realist in me can see us not lasting the day and getting 175ish to set around 200. I just think after that ball from Ashwin with all our left handers it really could be trouble.
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Same here England need heads down and grind out the runs India should not have got to within 60 runs of England's total last night root looked idea less On getting a wicket when Varat was batting with Indias number 10 and 11.
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You've still got Root and Bairstow who could get after Ashwin and disrupt his rhythm. Great bowler to watch though, it's almost a win win for me, love watching a class offie, but if it doesn't come off for him, we'll have set a decent target. Like I said great opportunity for Jennings and Malan. Just need to get their feet moving.
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As I said I know he was dropped but the mental strength to battle through and not just give it away with some flirty cover drive attempt (after the drop) when you are that under the pump, complete examination of your new technique you are trying after being shocking last time out etc.. losing wickets at the other end. That is the sign of great batting.
all the chat from kholi re I've nothing to prove in England etc wasnt true until yersterdays innings what that innings as done its taken the pressure off him for the series.
The magnitude of the drop by malan is massive it could cost England not just this match but the series.
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All falling apart
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Like I said great opportunity for Jennings
Sorry guys. Great bowling.
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Jennings out in similar style to Cook Ashwin bowling line length and loop.
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All falling apart
Was expecting to turn it on and see us 3-4 down after reading that.
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all the chat from kholi re I've nothing to prove in England etc wasnt true until yersterdays innings what that innings as done its taken the pressure off him for the series.
The magnitude of the drop by malan is massive it could cost England not just this match but the series.
Yep completely agree the Malan drop I think will be the most crucial moment in the series.
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Root goes - ashwin all over england. Turned square
Got a punt on buttler to be top scorer this innings
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The Jennings one was awful for a leftie to play. Had to engage in a shot as it was just about hitting off stump, maybe just missing, on a great length drawing him forward with drift but not close enough to negate the turn. Brilliant delivery.
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Root goes - ashwin all over england. Turned square
Got a punt on buttler to be top scorer this innings
I know it's instinct but I really don't get playing the tickle round the corner when there's a wide leg slip, you are just asking for trouble.
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Don't want to keep posting the same thing but we should of got 400 not 300 and so we are under pressure second innings. we know the pitch will only take more spin as I goes on
feeling we could see some fallout if we lose this
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The Jennings one was awful for a leftie to play. Had to engage in a shot as it was just about hitting off stump, maybe just missing, on a great length drawing him forward with drift but not close enough to negate the turn. Brilliant delivery.
All our left handers really our going to have to work out a better method against Ashwin because the pitches are only going to turn more as the series goes on.
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All our left handers really our going to have to work out a better method against Ashwin because the pitches are only going to turn more as the series goes on.
Forget the left handers, I think our right handers need a basic lesson in playing off-spin. Ashwin is hardly ragging it is he? Root's dismissal was as village as the sticker on his bat. Root's had a shocker this Test as skipper with first his run out, then his field placing yesterday evening and now this dismissal.
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Malan's career RIP
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Malan's career RIP
The ironic thing is he was looking ok against Ashwin!
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Ed Smith will either recall Vince, or do his beatnik hipster trump card and pick Roy
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trying to bea bit more positive here
is it time for stokes bairstow butler...
to get the long handle out one day style
we can push and prod or give it some humpty
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trying to bea bit more positive here
is it time for stokes bairstow butler...
to get the long handle out one day style
we can push and prod or give it some humpty
Pushing and prodding isn't working so if we can just get to lunch I actually wouldn't be adverse to s definite counter attack straight after lunch.
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I think we are going to have to do that
100 lead now, its hard to do when we have not won for ages but we have to be positive
we need 250 lead I reckon. 150 more
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This team is an absolute shambles
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What is Bairstow doing there? As Atherton said why is he trying to play it through the off side and staying so leg side ofcthe ball that's just school boy cricket.
Stokes got a good ball that straightened quite a bit.
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Buttler needs to do a Kohli and Shepard the tail - time to play some shots after lunch
200 might be a good score with the ball still doing a bit
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Ed Smith will either recall Vince, or do his beatnik hipster trump card and pick Roy
Will be interesting, with no Stokes, I think Mo will come in definitely. Then just a question of any other genuine people getting dropped.
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hugely disappointing.
changing players wont work anymore, we've tried lots of them
heads will roll if we lose, we have been poor for a while
we need a Nasser moment and some honesty. only then can we move forward
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With the hot , dry english summer , my guess is that most of the wickets for the series will be quite india friendly. Eng might find it impossible to get back into the series if they lose this match. Rashid needs to be a match winner here/earn his recall or there's not much hope.
Roy in for malan ?
Ali for 2nd test ?
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Also , i reckon broad needs big wickets or he should be dropped.....i think he needs the wake up call that he cant just bowl pedestrian mids 90% of the time and maintain his place with a big spell once a blue moon. Now that i think about it.....broad should be dropped regardless.
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I expect one day cricket will be blamed again for our lack of application
I really really do not buy it. its just an excuse
if your good enough you should be able to adapt between the two formats. overseas players do.
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We're crap, and there's not a lot that can be done about it. For 5 years we've relied on doctored pitches and home advantage - we're so poor we can't even do that anymore. This is a true reflection as to how poor our players are, and there are no better players waiting in the wings. Two of our better bowlers are on the verge of retirement, so things are only going to get worse, and seeing as domestic and recreational cricket has been systematically destroyed by the ECB, meaning no new test-quality cricketers are being developed, this may be it - things may never get better.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this has been obvious for several years now.
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Vince????? Roy????? Can;t see a call up for either of them (especially Vince).
Joe Clarke was training with the team prior to the test I believe.
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Vince????? Roy????? Can;t see a call up for either of them (especially Vince).
Joe Clarke was training with the team prior to the test I believe.
Yep reckon Clarke is the next cab off the rankings.
What I must say is India's catching this innings has been excellent, and we all know what wins matches...
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Ive said it before and Ill probably have to say it again....
What does bayliss actually do? Time for him to go!!!
No point blaming the players anymore (I personally dont think theyre that bad) its poor leadership and being afraid to b*****k them when theyre crap! When have you seen bayliss even remotely angry? Flower, fletcher and Moores used to be!
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I expect one day cricket will be blamed again for our lack of application
I really really do not buy it. its just an excuse
if your good enough you should be able to adapt between the two formats. overseas players do.
Not sure its that simple.
Were picking guys on the basis of ODI form, and theres been no domestic Red back cricket recently. They might not be the full reasons but sure they dont help.
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Absolutely pathetic
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Ive said it before and Ill probably have to say it again....
What does bayliss actually do? Time for him to go!!!
No point blaming the players anymore (I personally dont think theyre that bad) its poor leadership and being afraid to b*****k them when theyre crap! When have you seen bayliss even remotely angry? Flower, fletcher and Moores used to be!
Bayliss doesnt drop catches, doesnt run their partner out or play bad shots. Only so much a coach can do, these are meant to be international cricketers. Change coach and what do they do to fix it?
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Remind me of why Buttler was selected again?
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Bayliss doesnt drop catches, doesnt run their partner out or play bad shots. Only so much a coach can do, these are meant to be international cricketers. Change coach and what do they do to fix it?
Everything else has changed and these problems keep appearing what else is there to do
Bayliss has overseen the test decline
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Everything else has changed and these problems keep appearing what else is there to do
Bayliss has overseen the test decline
What would a new coach do? There is far more to it than just shouting at people. If these players cant go back in and know what they've done wrong they shouldnt be playing test cricket.
I agree with you there has been a test decline since Bayliss took over, its clear the ECB have focused on one day cricket. Are we good enough to be good at both? I'm not so sure. I still dont see how a new coach comes in and makes these players stop making silly mistakes. England have thrown this game away since the moment Root was run out on day 1. If they held their catches even with this second innings debacle they'd currently be over 200 runs infront
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Everything else has changed and these problems keep appearing what else is there to do
Bayliss has overseen the test decline
agree skipper and coach are responsible.
reading @SLA post is massively depressing....but there's a lot of truth in it.
I cant come to accept a permanent decline myself thou, perhaps im deluded
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agree skipper and coach are responsible.
reading @SLA post is massively depressing....but there's a lot of truth in it.
I cant come to accept a permanent decline myself thou, perhaps im deluded
I really don't think it's all doom and gloom as SLA describes it. Yes it is very bad but we have been here before and it just goes in cycles.
I almost hope that we get beaten that badly that it shows up the things that need changing. Like the CC schedule etc...
You must remember Strauss brought Baylis in on a remit to make our white ball cricket better at a time when it was absolutely dire.... so really he has done his job, the ECB have focused all their efforts on that etc... so sooner or later they will hopefully get a wake-up call and realise that they actually have to focus on red ball cricket now.
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I expect one day cricket will be blamed again for our lack of application
I really really do not buy it. its just an excuse
if your good enough you should be able to adapt between the two formats. overseas players do.
Overseas players dont adapt !! Its not just an England thing, its a world wide issue. This side saldy has a lot of white ball players in who we yet again keep pretending are upto test standard. They are if you want white ball mentality tests but not if you want adaptability, consistency of Cricket.
Either way, all the talk again of heads to rool Honesty.. why?? Theyve never done it before so why does anyone expect different.. plus, name a RED ball cricketer who can replace any of these .... ROY.. LOL .. HALES.. LOL .. hameed was the closest and they told him to go away and expand his game and its broke him
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Everything else has changed and these problems keep appearing what else is there to do
Bayliss has overseen the test decline
Its not Baylis ffs.. its the whole system both the ECB and the world game is producing. From kids upwards players mainly play limited overs.. menaing to get noticed you have to be a limited overs player.. only very rarely can these then transfer to red ball. Historically more people played more cricket paralleled to red ball.. so, you produced more red ball capable players as they grew up with it and developed styles and mentalities (dont under estimate the mental side) to cope.
In addition, If you are 30or less in the pro world there is little merit in not playing primarily white bal.. money talks so all coaching, age group stuff and pro stuff is geared towards white ball.. coaching is geared that way..
So why does anyone expect sudddenly to produce players in any number who care capable of sudd Ely changing technical issues, mentality.
All nations are the same, this Indian side cant bloody bat either unless its a pudding and they are not great vs spin either
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India are leaking runs now! They need to get the last 3 wickets quick..the lesser we have to chase, the better.
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For a young lad Curran has got some cajones!
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England do not deserve Surrey players
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England do not deserve Surrey players
You could argue Surrey don't deserve to be without the England players either
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Get Roy into this test team! Thats what this England team needs!
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Ive said it before and Ill probably have to say it again....
What does bayliss actually do? Time for him to go!!!
No point blaming the players anymore (I personally dont think theyre that bad) its poor leadership and being afraid to b*****k them when theyre crap! When have you seen bayliss even remotely angry? Flower, fletcher and Moores used to be!
Those three coaches had some genuine test players to rely on.. this team doesnt have that.. this team has more pre Madonnas and players who are naturally ball strikers. Go back 8 years and the test side ps middle order wasnt jus the packed with ball strikers. In fact, it only had KP.. the rest were more technical than everything other than root.. root is a better bell but is more like bell than any other
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Get Roy into this test team! Thats what this England team needs!
another ODI dasher with a muddled mind and a dubious F.C. record?
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So you can play a Day/Night Test under the floodlights, but at 2.30 on Friday afternoon you go off for bad light with the floodlights in operation...
Test cricket, ladies and gentlemen!
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(https://i.imgur.com/OBwXSO6.png)
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england wont mind bowling in these conditions, needed 180-200
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Looking at Rashid's bat....he always seems to play with a bat which had a handle replaced (looking at the sticker)..wonder if it is a superstitious thing..surely Slazenger could replace the stickers on a repaired bat..looks quite village that..
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I love Sam
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(https://i.imgur.com/OBwXSO6.png)
haha thats quality
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Sam Curran, what a lad!
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When I grow up I want to be just like Sam Curran.
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we got a glimmer.
if Broad could bat like his dad for an hour that would be handy
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we got a glimmer.
if Broad could bat like his dad for an hour that would be handy
Good jinx that!
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Good jinx that!
Inevitable
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What are everyone's predictions how today will go?
The realist in me can see us not lasting the day and getting 175ish to set around 200. I just think after that ball from Ashwin with all our left handers it really could be trouble.
Well I wasn't far off.
We have a chance.... thanks to Curran..... need some early wickets.
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I know they won't but do it but I'd be so tempted to throw the new ball to Curran on the back of that knock while he's fired up.
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Excellent knock from Sam.
Preferred him booming it than the guide with all them slips in!
And yes give him the new ball!! Anyone but broad to be fair.....
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new ball's wasted on broad
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Malan's career RIP
Ed Smith will either recall Vince, or do his beatnik hipster trump card and pick Roy
Dawid Malan - 27.85
James Vince - 24.90
Moeen Ali - 32.40 ;)
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Another drop. Should have been taken.
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Get Malan out of this effing team
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Get him out of that (No Swearing Please) cordon!!
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I cant believe we and he has shelled another one
I just cant believe it......
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Hoorah
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Malan a very lucky boy!!
I just don't understand why he is in the slips when you have Stokes and Root who are both very good slip fielders.
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Maybe it's time for England to do to Malan what he keeps doing to the ball...
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new ball's wasted on broad
What do I know
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It'sHappening.gif
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Game on
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IT'S HAPPENING
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Anyone thinking India battin dont have the same issues as England just look at Vijay, dhawan and rahoul. Kohli is going to need to do this alone, the others will be bowled out
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What do I know
Haha.....
If Broad can get on a hot streak and get Kohli it will get very interesting indeed
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I know they won't but do it but I'd be so tempted to throw the new ball to Curran on the back of that knock while he's fired up.
Proof that I should never be listened too. Ever.
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BROAD !!!!
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Time for Rahul to make a name for himself. Stand up and be counted when it matters.
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What do I know
Is this his one for the summer??
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Good swing for Curran again
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Squeaky bum time for India
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I won't accept we have a sniff of this until Kohli is gone
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Lovely shape from Curran
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I won't accept we have a sniff of this until Kohli is gone
Agreed
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I won't accept we have a sniff of this until Kohli is gone
Yep if England are going to win they have to get Kholi
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How on Earth is he surviving these absolute peaches
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Hoorah!
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Proper test match this!!
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Game over, 2-3 more before close. India have no chance even if Kohli is there. Far too many runs
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Not sure of the thinking by sending in Ashwin in front of Karkik and Panyda unless it was o try and smash a few.
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Game over, 2-3 more before close. India have no chance even if Kohli is there. Far too many runs
India favourites now.
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Not sure of the thinking by sending in Ashwin in front of Karkik and Panyda unless it was o try and smash a few.
Hang around around a bit and see if the newish ball was my thinking.
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Get Kohli out and win the game. Simple. India are only a good chasing side because of him. If you get him out for cheap, India pretty much lose every time.
That's what great players do.
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I think it is Eng's game. 84 runs needed from here is not easy at all for Ind.
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I think as Kholi is still there India are slight favourites.
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If kholi is still there we will lose. He already showed how to farm the strike that is world class batting.
There's not enough runs for Rashid to be fair to him so root did not bowl him much Root won't want easy runs given away
To be fair thou whatever you think on selection this is more a seamers wicket. Ishant has bowled well.Shami too and how Anderson did not get a hatful 1st innings I do not know.
As far a changes go does Malan did another go? stokes missing next match we don't like too many changes at once usually
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If kholi is still there we will lose. He already showed how to farm the strike that is world class batting.
There's not enough runs for Rashid to be fair to him so root did not bowl him much Root won't want easy runs given away
To be fair thou whatever you think on selection this is more a seamers wicket. Ishant has bowled well.Shami too and how Anderson did not get a hatful 1st innings I do not know.
As far a changes go does Malan did another go? stokes missing next match we don't like too many changes at once usually
Get Kohli out win the game.... simples.... hahaha
As for changes... Mo for Stokes because of the court case. Then Malan has to go surely, remember he got nothing against Pakistan as well. This test would also be pretty much done and dusted if he could catch a cold!! I would bring in a right hander so either Clarke or Pope.
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If kholi is still there we will lose. He already showed how to farm the strike that is world class batting.
There's not enough runs for Rashid to be fair to him so root did not bowl him much Root won't want easy runs given away
To be fair thou whatever you think on selection this is more a seamers wicket. Ishant has bowled well.Shami too and how Anderson did not get a hatful 1st innings I do not know.
As far a changes go does Malan did another go? stokes missing next match we don't like too many changes at once usually
Id personally go with Ali so replace stokes and pope to replace malan.
Ali as he fits into that all-rounder role and pope is there for the future, also one less left hander.
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Can't keep Malan after this run of form and his piss poor catching in the slips which could possibly lose us the game in hindsight
Like they talked valut today on comms he's been out 11 out of last 12 times defending and every one is a mirror image of the last. Footwork is none existant, I don't care if he plays for middlesex like Strauss and Smith, he's not good enough
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Can't keep Malan after this run of form and his piss poor catching in the slips which could possibly lose us the game in hindsight
Like they talked valut today on comms he's been out 11 out of last 12 times defending and every one is a mirror image of the last. Footwork is none existant, I don't care if he plays for middlesex like Strauss and Smith, he's not good enough
But its ok for moeen, Bairstow, stokes and co to keep getting out in the same ways ??
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It really annoys me when they keep saying these are the best we have and standards in county cricket are poor. Sam Curran has shown exactly what you get if you give young talent a chance! He' not the finish article but temperament is outstanding. Joe Clarke for me next test. Pope and Lawrence also great talents who should be looked at. Young talent needs to be given the opportunity if we are to find the next generation of test players.
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Heard somebody saying at Edgbaston that Curran is the Ben Stokes you could take home to meet your mum.
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Can't keep Malan after this run of form and his piss poor catching in the slips which could possibly lose us the game in hindsight
Like they talked valut today on comms he's been out 11 out of last 12 times defending and every one is a mirror image of the last. Footwork is none existant, I don't care if he plays for middlesex like Strauss and Smith, he's not good enough
The other stat that got pulled out was that since his debut, no one has had a higher percentage of dismissals whilst playing defensive shots than Malan. His form is wretched and his fielding could cost England this game, but looking at the bigger picture, his technique isn't up to playing at this level and, a month away from turning 31, he isn't one to persevere with for the future.
England are at the point where they need to identify young players with the potential to be able to play to this level in the future, not picking experienced county pros who aren't and never will be up to the task
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Can't keep Malan after this run of form and his piss poor catching in the slips which could possibly lose us the game in hindsight
Like they talked valut today on comms he's been out 11 out of last 12 times defending and every one is a mirror image of the last. Footwork is none existant, I don't care if he plays for middlesex like Strauss and Smith, he's not good enough
Malan dropping kholi allowed kholi to score runs which could cost England not just this match And even if England win today that drop could still lose them the series.
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Wouldn't be surprised to see Malan get one more game.. is Lords the next test?
He was one of the better batsman in Australia, but having a wretched time now and the slip fielding shows he's head obviously not in the right place for test cricket at the moment.
Does feel like a bit of a scapegoat at the moment. The entire top 7 is misfiring. A new no.4 won't magically fix the team. The more established players need to be scoring more runs.
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JIMMY WE ARE NOT WORTHY
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I wonder how much slip catching practice Malan did this morning!!
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First half hour England controlling the game.
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We need stokes magic delivery very very soon.
Clear daylight between the best and the very best as pointed out by a fellow forumite.
Kholi is playing this superb
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STOKESY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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STOKESY YOU ABSOLUTE BEAUTY
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Holy cricket god is that the moment
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Oh my God
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#FREEBENSTOKES
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#FREEBENSTOKES
Give him an automatic pardon just for removing Kohli
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Get in!!
Just out of interest. As a forum do we still want to sack the coaches and replace half the line up??
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Great finish that !
All my indian mates reckon ishant edged the ball. I told them there was no bat involved. They said they thought i was biased (but I'm a neutral aussie ;)).
I told them they are blind.
Win win.
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Who's our MOTM?
Gotta be Sam Curran hasn't it? Bizarrely I didn't really think he was test ready, but he has a lot of heart and a lot of energy.
Surely set to keep Woakes out of the team for the forseeable
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BAYLISS OUT 😂
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Get in!!
Just out of interest. As a forum do we still want to sack the coaches and replace half the line up??
Does random sporadic performances justify continued selections ? Answer yes then keep them all .. answer no.. then you have to be able to separate random innings or balls from what they produce consistently
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Team England needs better, more temperamentally stable fans and supporters instead of a new set players.
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Can't see any changes apart from Stokes although there's an outside chance he will play maybe Woakes ( step backwards ) but after picking him in the squad it should be Porter Lords does spin so maybe Moeen will play.
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Does random sporadic performances justify continued selections ? Answer yes then keep them all .. answer no.. then you have to be able to separate random innings or balls from what they produce consistently
My post was more aimed at forum mentality than actual selection. But we can go there.
Is there anyone banging down the door to play? Masses of runs county and lions ready to dive in? Then yes change the side.
If there isnt and we are just going to go back to another player who struggled(Vince, Westley, stoneman etc) then I dont see the point.
Let malan have a few more games or the series and if he fails completely then move on.
As for stokes replacement, everyone keeps banging on about Moeen.... sky Jd mentioned it a few times tonight.
Does he really replace stokes instantly? Do we need two spinners fornhe next year?
Or are we suggesting Ali replaces stokes and becomes th email spinner and say porter replaces Rashid to maintain 4 pace bowlers??
Me personally believe Woakes will get the call up, and the other ten will stay the same.
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personally hope woakes plays can bat as well as bowl, if not him then moeen but asking a lot of curran anderson and broad
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Yea I think Woakes will be in as cover, it could be Moeen thou also as an allrounder, if Rashid plays which he should, we could go in with two spinners, Lords should take spin I think.
As for Malan, shocking catching nearly cost us the game.....but he has shown some ability in previous games.
If he is going to be replaced its got to be with someone better, or potentially better.
The cupboard is not exactly full to replace him. Joe Clarke I think could have the class long term, not sure he will get in now thou
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Also also
Does random sporadic performances justify continued selections ?
It seems to happen for broad..........
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Yea I think Woakes will be in as cover, it could be Moeen thou also as an allrounder, if Rashid plays which he should, we could go in with two spinners, Lords should take spin I think.
As for Malan, shocking catching nearly cost us the game.....but he has shown some ability in previous games.
If he is going to be replaced its got to be with someone better, or potentially better.
The cupboard is not exactly full to replace him. Joe Clarke I think could have the class long term, not sure he will get in now thou
thats the problem, who you replacing for Malan this isn't much option there. Cook is another one hasn't got many scores to his name. But there struggling to find a partner for him let alone replace him
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Can't see any changes apart from Stokes although there's an outside chance he will play maybe Woakes ( step backwards ) but after picking him in the squad it should be Porter Lords does spin so maybe Moeen will play.
Other han injury how is woakes a step backwards in English conditions
Seriously man!
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Right handers who can bat #4 and catch a ball every once in a while: Hildreth, Clarke, Pope, me.
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Right handers who can bat #4 and catch a ball every once in a while: Hildreth, Clarke, Pope, me.
Id personally go pope
We need to give youngsters a chance and he is mightily impressive!
Clarke would be my second best
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I should add that Pope has typically been at 5/6, but I see no reason why he couldn't play there.
I guess we'll see Woakes back into the side and everyone probably moves up a spot.
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Also also
It seems to happen for broad..........
Lol
Agreed
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Harry Brook.
Right handed. Bats top four. Top quality.
Won't happen but...
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Ali will surely replace Stokes, remember the Lords test about this time last summer anyone?
Mo - 10/112
Dawson - even got 4 wickets! We played 2 spinners.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/10718/scorecard/1031437/england-vs-south-africa-1st-test-sa-tour-of-england-2017/ (http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/10718/scorecard/1031437/england-vs-south-africa-1st-test-sa-tour-of-england-2017/)
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Other han injury how is woakes a step backwards in English conditions
Seriously man!
he's done nothing in an England test shirt for two years but regardless
England need to look to the future and not keep selecting nearly men having selected Porter in the squad now theres an opportunity possibly no Stokes and England Are one nil up at home England should play him
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he's done nothing in an England test shirt for two years but regardless
England need to look to the future and not keep selecting nearly men having selected Porter in the squad now theres an opportunity possibly no Stokes and England Are one nil up at home England should play him
But you need to think about the batting part of it as well considering how crap our top order are at the moment.
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But you need to think about the batting part of it as well considering how crap our top order are at the moment.
Not really.. you should pick your best bowlers and then the top six (test cricket remember)should be good enough to post 400 consistently without relying on lower order hits. Unless of course youre going to admit out top six arent out it ??
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Chris woakes called up to the squadas replacement for stokes. And..........
Ollie pope has replaced malan.
They went and dropped him!! Personally hope pope gets a go, good to see the young ones given a shot
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Yes Popey lad!
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Woakes back in the team and odds on the team was as expected. Very surprised Malan has not been given another chance.
Don't know anything about Pope but I do agree if you can get a young promising player in then do it. The lad is highly rated and has got his runs in div 1
Smith comment ' Malan maybe best suited to overseas matches' has ended his test career straight away. He is mostly a back foot player hence doing well in Oz
But you cannot pick a player for one tour every couple of years. He won't play again.
seem a lot of comments about replacing Cook on the message boards on the BBC !!
I'd like one name to take a punt on to replace him, the fact is we still need his runs. He still has what it takes I reckon to get hundreds
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Not really.. you should pick your best bowlers and then the top six (test cricket remember)should be good enough to post 400 consistently without relying on lower order hits. Unless of course youre going to admit out top six arent out it ??
But Stokes bats at 6.
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What are Popes 4 day figures this season?
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600 odd runs with 3 centuries at an average of 80 odd
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Side Id like to see
Cook
Jennings
Root
Pope
Bairstow
Buttler
Woakes/Ali
Curran
Rashid
Broad
Anderson
I reckon they may go
Cook
Jennings
Root
Ali
Bairstow
Buttler
Woakes
Curran
Rashid/Porter
Broad
Anderson
As despite our batting issues, we often look to get as many bowlers in as we can.
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Side Id like to see
Cook
Jennings
Root
Pope
Bairstow
Buttler
Woakes/Ali
Curran
Rashid
Broad
Anderson
I reckon they may go
Cook
Jennings
Root
Ali
Bairstow
Buttler
Woakes
Curran
Rashid/Porter
Broad
Anderson
As despite our batting issues, we often look to get as many bowlers in as we can.
I reckon it will be the 1st side you have put down. Then pitch dependent Woakes or Ali will play. Why drop Malan for Pope if he isn't going to play.
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I seriously doubt they would not select Pope and not play him.
Also I'm sure India will be delighted to see another 20 year old from Surrey. Strong Surrey = Strong England
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Watched Kholis post match interview where he gave England credit for winning and no excuses for losing he said India had had all the preparation time they needed but his batters need to work out how to play in The UK.
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As @six and out mentioned above lords spun last time expect India to go in with 2 spinners maybe 3
I think Ali has a chance of playing but if that means Woakes misses out we could be left exposed. India play spin better than anyone
Tricky team selection I think coming up....
Jadeja must play surely it does not weaken their batting if he comes in.
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I seriously doubt they would not select Pope and not play him.
Also I'm sure India will be delighted to see another 20 year old from Surrey. Strong Surrey = Strong England
You spelt Yorkshire wrong
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Smith comment ' Malan maybe best suited to overseas matches' has ended his test career straight away. He is mostly a back foot player hence doing well in Oz
It was a fairly damming assessment of Malan that his technique isn't up to scratch when it comes to playing in the conditions in the country that he has played his professional career in. I am pleased to see that they have gone with a talented young lad playing with confidence rather than a 30 year old who isn't good enough and never will be.
It will be interesting to see whether Pope is given a debut. If the pitch turns like it did last year at Lord's I can see England putting Ali into the middle order as a second spinner
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Indeed it was pretty damning. Smith is proving unafraid of changing normal selection.
As Clarke trained with the squad you would think he was next in line for the second test but Pope has come thru the lions and is in form and has div 1 runs....so it's not a huge surprise.
I think he will play and then England will deceide out of Woakes or Ali.
Malan is dropped so there has to be a direct replacement you would think.
Pope plays for me and prob 2 spinners. Without championship cricket now Leach in not able to get match practice.
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It is an interesting state of affairs that someone can be considered as a no.4 bat for England before they've ever batted that high for their county.
But I'm reluctant to say it's not the right call though because I said it was too soon for Sam and was gloriously proved wrong.
Gunn and Moore's decision to make Malan their poster boy always did look a bit premature.
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Indeed it was pretty damning. Smith is proving unafraid of changing normal selection.
As Clarke trained with the squad you would think he was next in line for the second test but Pope has come thru the lions and is in form and has div 1 runs....so it's not a huge surprise.
I think he will play and then England will deceide out of Woakes or Ali.
Malan is dropped so there has to be a direct replacement you would think.
Pope plays for me and prob 2 spinners. Without championship cricket now Leach in not able to get match practice.
I expect the same Pope straight swop for Malan - otherwise why would you bring him into the squad. Then a shoot out depending on the pitch between Woakes and Ali to replace Stokes.
The only thing I would add is that the management may be worried about only playing 3 seamers in a 5 test condensed series, will/could mean a lot of overs in Jimmy and Broads legs.
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If Malan has been jettisoned for his, I would suggest young Mr Jennings should consider himself fortunate- he seems to have escaped any criticism for his form.
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If Malan has been jettisoned for his, I would suggest young Mr Jennings should consider himself fortunate- he seems to have escaped any criticism for his form.
Poor Malan feel for the fella just when you thought It couldnt get worse
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Tough call as the next match is his home ground. We havnt had many test matches this summer so far to make a real judgement thou? He played pretty well in Australia in the winter.
We could be moving back to a more ruthless selection system with players no longer having 'one too many rather than one to few' as Bayliss puts it
As referenced yes in mind games...back in the 90's loads got dropped recalled and dropped again .
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I personally would have given him one more test seems a bit harsh. Espically when there isnt a proven replacement there to take his place.
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I think the fact that Ed Smith referenced Malan's technique speaks volumes. He obviously didn't think that his style of less foot movement, hanging back etc... was ever going to work and score runs, however harsh that is.
Don't forget that Malan only averaged 15 over 3 knocks against Pakistan earlier this summer as well.
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The fact that two other 20 year-olds have stepped up so well must have been a consideration.
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I think the fact that Ed Smith referenced Malan's technique speaks volumes. He obviously didn't think that his style of less foot movement, hanging back etc... was ever going to work and score runs, however harsh that is.
Don't forget that Malan only averaged 15 over 3 knocks against Pakistan earlier this summer as well.
Dont forget he was the best batsman in Australia. But I do agree he was close to getting dropped just think everyone has a bad run of form
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If Malan has been jettisoned for his, I would suggest young Mr Jennings should consider himself fortunate- he seems to have escaped any criticism for his form.
He's an opener they always get a longer run
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Dont forget he was the best batsman in Australia. But I do agree he was close to getting dropped just think everyone has a bad run of form
He was the best of a really bad bunch though, It wasn't like he averaged 80.
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He was the best of a really bad bunch though, It wasn't like he averaged 80.
Fair point his average in test cricket is putrid as well
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Indeed, I'm all for people being given a run but he has played 15 tests straight, they should be enough to give a decent indication.
The single biggest issue for me is only averaging 20 in Tests in England after 8 games. You can't have en England test batsman who can't buy a run at home.
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I'll probably get slaughtered for saying this, but I think James Vince is a much better batsman than Dawid Malan.
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I'll probably get slaughtered for saying this, but I think James Vince is a much better batsman than Dawid Malan.
By a distance. He'll probably get one more shot IMO, the question is if he can adjust his game to stop snicking off all the time.
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I'll probably get slaughtered for saying this, but I think James Vince is a much better batsman than Dawid Malan.
nope.....hugely frustrating batsman, and got a double ton just before he was dropped.
did he need more time? it's a tough call for the selectors sometimes, we are criticise but so many batsmen and not quite there it makes it difficult.
Vince has got plenty of talent, did he have the grit and brains needed for tests?
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It's a temperament thing isn't it?
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Absolutely - Vince is a lovely batsman, but a walking wicket to any clever test bowler because he seems unable to adapt and learn.
Malan had a fair run and it just seems he wasn't up to snuff.
I'm excited about all these young lads being pushed through though - maybe in years to come, we will look back at smith as some kind of clairvoyant genius.
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You have to think if something ever happened to Root, Vince would be the like for like player in the one day side to come in and maybe in the test side if he can transfer some of his white ball ability.
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I'll probably get slaughtered for saying this, but I think James Vince is a much better batsman than Dawid Malan.
He will probably get one more chance but if he keeps getting out the same way got to give up on him
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He will probably get one more chance but if he keeps getting out the same way got to give up on him
I'm a big fan of giving players an early look at test cricket, if they take to it, great, but if not it gives them the change to go away, make changes and come back a player hopefully better equipped to succeed at that level.
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I tend to the opinion that they have been unduly harsh on Malan. He's not made much so far this Summer, but had a really good winter and certainly demonstrated the temprament of a test player. One more test, given it was at Lords, was the least he deserved. Especially when Buttler got 0 and 5 and looked all at sea.
As to Pope. The kid looks decent, I agree, and should certainly have expected a test career. Whether now is too soon, and whether calling up a lad who has batted mostly at six for his county to bat four is really the right move, will have to be seen.
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I'm a big fan of giving players an early look at test cricket, if they take to it, great, but if not it gives them the change to go away, make changes and come back a player hopefully better equipped to succeed at that level.
If I remember correctly root was dropped couple of years ago in Australia, now hes the captain and averaging over 50
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I'll probably get slaughtered for saying this, but I think James Vince is a much better batsman than Dawid Malan.
Natural talent, certainly. Gumption, less so.
But Vince was a tad unlucky that he was the one dropped at the start of the summer, rather than Stoneman, likewise that he was never given the chance to bat a bit lower in tests where he would have been less susceptible to the moving ball. I still think he will get another chance at some point.
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I think if you combined Vince's batting talent and Malan's temperament and grit, you might be halfway to making a decent test batsman.
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If we're into the realms of genetically splicing cricketers, I vote we combine 2005 vintage Steve Harmison with 2005 vintage Marcus Trescothick
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If we're into the realms of genetically splicing cricketers, I vote we combine 2005 vintage Steve Harmison with 2005 vintage Marcus Trescothick
Open the batting and the bowling under 15's style?
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Remember the first time I saw GBH bowl, the keeper was nearer the boundary than the wicket, and he was so far away when he started his run up the camber of the Earth meant the batsman couldn't see him.
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Remember the first time I saw GBH bowl, the keeper was nearer the boundary than the wicket, and he was so far away when he started his run up the camber of the Earth meant the batsman couldn't see him.
You blaspheme......the earth is flat i tell ya ! :D
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I'll probably get slaughtered for saying this, but I think James Vince is a much better batsman than Dawid Malan.
I don't think many would argue that Vince is the better of the two. I thought Vince was unlucky to lose his place whilst Malan kept his.
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I don't think many would argue that Vince is the better of the two. I thought Vince was unlucky to lose his place whilst Malan kept his.
Well, that's daft given how Malan batted over the winter.
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Pope for me is a decent call, but I always thought he would replace Buttler if Buttler lost form?
The most logical in my eyes would have been to see Vince given another chance at 3 in home conditions and in decent nick. So Root could move to 4 as he likes to!!
But still include Pope in the squad so that he gets an intro into what it's like to be a part of the team!
Plus Pop is settled in if Buttler continues to perform below par.
Don't get me wrong.....this could be a genius move to put Pope in at 4. But time will tell!
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I hope they consider resting Buttler - or even batting him at 4? - to allow both Woakes and Ali to play in Stokes' absence.
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Ian Weston did a great article about James Vince if anyone hasnt read they should. Great insight
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Pope for me is a decent call, but I always thought he would replace Buttler if Buttler lost form?
The most logical in my eyes would have been to see Vince given another chance at 3 in home conditions and in decent nick. So Root could move to 4 as he likes to!!
But still include Pope in the squad so that he gets an intro into what it's like to be a part of the team!
Plus Pop is settled in if Buttler continues to perform below par.
Don't get me wrong.....this could be a genius move to put Pope in at 4. But time will tell!
I'm not knocking Pope, but surely, even if only for one match, they have to rejig the batting order and change who takes the gloves?
If Bairstow bats four (or opens, with Jennings at four) and Pope comes in five, maybe even six if Ali gets the nod over Woakes, then the youngster has a much fairer chance of making his mark.
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I'm not knocking Pope, but surely, even if only for one match, they have to rejig the batting order and change who takes the gloves?
If Bairstow bats four (or opens, with Jennings at four) and Pope comes in five, maybe even six if Ali gets the nod over Woakes, then the youngster has a much fairer chance of making his mark.
Pope doesn't bat top 3 for Surrey so yes you would think ideally he could slot in and others move around him, as used to happen with a young player.
But bairstow might be reluctant to move up further, so Pope slots in directly for Malan.
England I reckon want two spinners in for Lords, I think India could pick 2 maybe 3 as it spun last time.
The only oter way I think to do this and play Pope is leave out Butler.i don't think they will do that but it gets two spinners in.
As mentioned by @edge when push comes to shove and places are so tight is a specialist batter at number 7 or 8 a luxury?
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Butler/YJB at 4/5 for me, not too bothered which way round but probably Bairstow higher. Don't think he'll mind that, definitely the type to grab as high a spot as he can! Then Pope slots in at 6 and choose between Moeen and Woakes based on the pitch. Maybe a gamble playing Butter at 5 but if he can't bat top 5 he shouldn't be selected as a specialist, and he definitely has the ability!
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Butler/YJB at 4/5 for me, not too bothered which way round but probably Bairstow higher. Don't think he'll mind that, definitely the type to grab as high a spot as he can! Then Pope slots in at 6 and choose between Moeen and Woakes based on the pitch. Maybe a gamble playing Butter at 5 but if he can't bat top 5 he shouldn't be selected as a specialist, and he definitely has the ability!
This.
Pope should start at 6.
Buttler is now the Vice Captain so should take some man up. Either he is a good enough batter or he is not.
Personally I think he is.
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I like Ali and would like to see him selected but does anyone think there may be an issue if he's up the order ? I'm just thinking there's achance Ashwin could do a job on him similar to Lyon in the ashes .
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Ian Weston did a great article about James Vince if anyone hasnt read they should. Great insight
Hey do you have a link to this article?
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Talk of Pope batting at 6? Surely you'd take Ali in that position and have the extra spin option?
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Talk of Pope batting at 6? Surely you'd take Ali in that position and have the extra spin option?
If we want the extra spin option then select Ali at 7? That gives you two spinners in a 5 man attack.
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Butler/YJB at 4/5 for me, not too bothered which way round but probably Bairstow higher. Don't think he'll mind that, definitely the type to grab as high a spot as he can! Then Pope slots in at 6 and choose between Moeen and Woakes based on the pitch. Maybe a gamble playing Butter at 5 but if he can't bat top 5 he shouldn't be selected as a specialist, and he definitely has the ability!
I'm not 100% convinced Buttler can bat 5 at tests but I think we're going to have to find out the hard way as I agree that if he can't bat top 5 then he can't be picked as a specialist bat.
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Left field suggestion, why not move Buttler to 2 and use it as an aggressive option to go at India. Tell him to bat how he would normally in a Warner-esque mould. Give India something to think about early and try and get off to a quick start.
Cook
Buttler
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Pope
Ali/Woakes
Curran
Rash
Broad
Anderson
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If we're going left field, I'll throw another in:
Cook
Jennings
Root
Woakes
Bairstow
Pope
Buttler
Curran
Rashid
Broad
Anderson
Or even Ali for Broad?
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If we want the extra spin option then select Ali at 7? That gives you two spinners in a 5 man attack.
In Stokes absence, I was suggesting 4 seamers and 2 spinners.
1. Cook 2. Jennings 3. Root 4. Buttler 5. Bairstow 6. Ali 7. Woakes 8. Curran 9. Rashid 10. Broad 11. Anderson.
I suspect Pope will play, though. As someone said, they wouldn't have called him otherwise.
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In Stokes absence, I was suggesting 4 seamers and 2 spinners.
1. Cook 2. Jennings 3. Root 4. Buttler 5. Bairstow 6. Ali 7. Woakes 8. Curran 9. Rashid 10. Broad 11. Anderson.
I suspect Pope will play, though. As someone said, they wouldn't have called him otherwise.
Wouldnt have butter at 4 probably Bairstow, but with him keeping would be difficult
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it would you would think
Pope I reckon will play, and unless they leave a out Butler, which I cant see, that means Ali for Woakes to get two spinners in
does that leave enough seamers with Curran as your third?
I don't like the look of that....
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*broken record alert* We don't need six bowlers! And one day Trevor Bayliss may even wake up to that...
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it's Edge !!
ton up son
(well batted)
seriously if Root bowled a bit more, it could give us the option we need.....
cant wait for Thursday the last game was why tests are the best form of the game :)
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Pope and Ali for Malan and Stokes. I would prefer to see Bairstow step up and bat at 4 rather than asking Pope to step up at this stage in his career.
Overall it seems to me that Ed Smith has made a positive start with his selections. Pleased to see Butler and Rashid back in test cricket- at times our one day side has looked better require to win test matches than our test side has - and happy that he has shown backing for young players with the character to succeed at this level
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Left field suggestion, why not move Buttler to 2 and use it as an aggressive option to go at India. Tell him to bat how he would normally in a Warner-esque mould. Give India something to think about early and try and get off to a quick start.
Cook
Buttler
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Pope
Ali/Woakes
Curran
Rash
Broad
Anderson
Thsi would be my favourite as Buttler can bat watchfully and then give himself plenty of time to get settled in.
Plus it means that Root is at 4 which he prefers, Bairstow doesn'[t have to move from 5 and Pope gets to bat his normal 6.
Alas, I feel it's unlikely to happen! :(
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Hopefully woakes can come in for stokes can bat and a decent bowler at home. Pope probably your best bet to replace Malan but muddles up the order as he bats 6 usually
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Thsi would be my favourite as Buttler can bat watchfully and then give himself plenty of time to get settled in.
Plus it means that Root is at 4 which he prefers, Bairstow doesn'[t have to move from 5 and Pope gets to bat his normal 6.
Alas, I feel it's unlikely to happen! :(
His technique wouldnt hold up I think with the ball moving round. Say he gets a low score they will probably change it no consistency with selection
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Thsi would be my favourite as Buttler can bat watchfully and then give himself plenty of time to get settled in.
Plus it means that Root is at 4 which he prefers, Bairstow doesn'[t have to move from 5 and Pope gets to bat his normal 6.
Alas, I feel it's unlikely to happen! :(
Is Buttler not about the least likely candidate in the 11 to thrown in against the swinging new red ball?
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Pete has pulled up a road sign and thrown it in thru the selection room smack in the middle of picking the test side
that's what we love about this forum and cricket. has there ever been a sport to generate differing views?
it's fantastic :)
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Doesn't sit right with me to chuck in a 20 year old rookie to bat out of position at 4 whilst the vice captain hides as a specialist batter at 7.
Buttler and Bairstow to sort out 4/5 between them with Pope at 6 I think is the best bet, unless we get in to the realms of Buttler keeping, in which case YJB definitely does 4, Pope 5 and Buttler keeps Benji's no.6 slot warm until he come back. AN Other all-rounder at 7 for now
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What do we think indias Changes will be. Pujara for me has to come in I know hes out of form but when you average 50 in test cricket has to be in the side
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Pujara has scored no runs since he has been over here and that's the reason they left him out according to India
absolute dead cert for me to get him in, India need one who can bat for a day, and his test record is superb.
jadeja also in the side as an allrounder and they look much stronger
wouldn't be surprised to see ashwin, jadeja and the wrist spinner all in. we havnt played spin well and Lords did turn last time. Some rain forecast thou for London end of this week....
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I think we also need to consider the continuity issue here, for everyone saying about Pope batting 6, whats that for 1 test? because Stokes won't move from 6 when he comes back in, he has shown that on numerous occasions he doesn't want to bat anywhere else.
For that reason i bat Pope at 5, i agree 4 could be too high, so Bairstow goes up to 4 (if everyone does their job he should be fine keeping and doing 4), Pope 5, Butler 6, Ali/Woakes 7, Curran 8 etc.... then when Stokes is back he slots back into 6 and Butler drops back to 7.
Butler is in the side to bat in a certain way at number 6/7 so what is the point in moving him.
As for India, surely Pujura comes in. For who i am not sure though, as you could pick 3 or 4 of them. Hardik Panya hardly bowled in the 1st Test so they actually could completely change the balance of their side and play the extra batsman. Especially if Ashwin is going to bowl all day from one end.
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Pujara has scored no runs since he has been over here and that's the reason they left him out according to India
absolute dead cert for me to get him in, India need one who can bat for a day, and his test record is superb.
jadeja also in the side as an allrounder and they look much stronger
wouldn't be surprised to see ashwin, jadeja and the wrist spinner all in. we havnt played spin well and Lords did turn last time. Some rain forecast thou for London end of this week....
I know but there Batting doesnt look good without him in the side I think he comes in for Rahul and jadeja in for pandya
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maybe mis informed here but what exactly has Dharwan done to retain his place? never seems to score any runs against he moving ball to me.
he would be the one left out and pujara in his place
pandya.....some talent that kid has, decent pace and destructive down the order.
india have difficult selection just like we have....
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I dont understand the real difference between Pope batting 4 or 5 for England. He may face the ball when its a bit newer but with England hes going to be in early wherever he bats ;) Should slot in at 4 for me and hopefully stay there for a long time.
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maybe mis informed here but what exactly has Dharwan done to retain his place? never seems to score any runs against he moving ball to me.
he would be the one left out and pujara in his place
pandya.....some talent that kid has, decent pace and destructive down the order.
india have difficult selection just like we have....
He scored runs in Sri Lanka couple of months back. But he doesnt play the moving ball well but hard to give him one test and out. They would have to move Rahul up to open and he looked just as bad. Even when they played in South Africa he was poor
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maybe mis informed here but what exactly has Dharwan done to retain his place? never seems to score any runs against he moving ball to me.
he would be the one left out and pujara in his place
pandya.....some talent that kid has, decent pace and destructive down the order.
india have difficult selection just like we have....
Pandya does not deserve a place in this XI. you cannot rely on him with bat or ball...not sure if Bhuvi is in the squad, but he would be a much better choice. Bhuvi proved in SA that he is quite capable with the bat too.
Openers are a problem area for sure. Neither of them have performed but we dont have too many choices. So sadly we are stuck with them. Think Karthik will be dropped and Rahul will be asked to keep to get Pujara in. I would have loved to see Pant get a chance but thats a long shot.
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when he comes back in
lol
Wormwood Scrubs 1st XI maybe
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Pandya does not deserve a place in this XI. you cannot rely on him with bat or ball...not sure if Bhuvi is in the squad, but he would be a much better choice. Bhuvi proved in SA that he is quite capable with the bat too.
Openers are a problem area for sure. Neither of them have performed but we dont have too many choices. So sadly we are stuck with them. Think Karthik will be dropped and Rahul will be asked to keep to get Pujara in. I would have loved to see Pant get a chance but thats a long shot.
Going to be difficult for Rahul to bat 3 or open and take the gloves
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Given the current mix of players my team for 3rd test when stokes is back :
Cook
Root
Bairstow
Pope
Stokes
Ali
Buttler (wk)
Woakes
Curran
Rashid
Anderson
I don't understand how a specialist bat /v.c can be at 7. Either he is good enough to be in the top order as a specialist (which I'm not sure about) or he has to do more at 7 (ie keep) and get someone capable into the top order , like bairstow (and relieve him of his keeping duties).
Any way you want to tweak this , this is not ideal and results in a no7 who doesn't keep , or a top order bat who keeps , or too many bits and pieces allrounders , or guys batting out of position while others bat in their preferred position even though they should really bat somewhere else , or bringing back players who have been tried and failed before etc etc .
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Given the current mix of players my team for 3rd test when stokes is back :
Cook
Root
Bairstow
Pope
Stokes
Ali
Buttler (wk)
Woakes
Curran
Rashid
Anderson
I don't understand how a specialist bat /v.c can be at 7. Either he is good enough to be in the top order as a specialist (which I'm not sure about) or he has to do more at 7 (ie keep) and get someone capable into the top order , like bairstow (and relieve him of his keeping duties).
Any way you want to tweak this , this is not ideal and results in a no7 who doesn't keep , or a top order bat who keeps , or too many bits and pieces allrounders , or guys batting out of position while others bat in their preferred position even though they should really bat somewhere else , or bringing back players who have been tried and failed before etc etc .
Root opening it was a struggle to get him to bat 3. If that happens mate Id put lottery on
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So how many of us have actually seen Ollie Pope bat?
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So how many of us have actually seen Ollie Pope bat?
Seen him once this season and he got a daddy ton, did look class plus he use GM must be good lol
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Didnt Kumar Sangakarra spend a lot of his career keeping and batting 3? I think at this moment with the batters we have, he should bat 4.
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So how many of us have actually seen Ollie Pope bat?
haven't seen him at all, but heard he's decent ;)
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So how many of us have actually seen Ollie Pope bat?
I have, albeit two years ago. I haven't seen anyone hit the ball cleaner than him. He just seems to be able to hit the ball wherever he wants. Am I allowed to compare him to Jos Buttler? 360 player who can also hit the ball a long way and keep. Definitely an exciting prospect. He might be vulnerable trying to cover drive everything a la James Vince, I can see him nicking off in the same way Vince did.
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Seen plenty of him this season to know he's good enough. Very much an attacking player, but for a kid his age has an incredible attitude/temperament
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Pope confirmed to bat at 4 https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/798606/england-name-squad-for-second-india-test?utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=englandcricket&utm_content=100000306051622+&utm_campaign=England%20v%20India%202018 (https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/798606/england-name-squad-for-second-india-test?utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=englandcricket&utm_content=100000306051622+&utm_campaign=England%20v%20India%202018)
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Confirmed that he'll play
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Pope confirmed to bat at 4 https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/798606/england-name-squad-for-second-india-test?utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=englandcricket&utm_content=100000306051622+&utm_campaign=England%20v%20India%202018 (https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/798606/england-name-squad-for-second-india-test?utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=englandcricket&utm_content=100000306051622+&utm_campaign=England%20v%20India%202018)
give the young inexperience batsman who bats 6 for his county a chance to bat at 4. why the experienced players hide behind him
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he was going o play once named, wish the lad the best in an England shirt.
I just hope....we stick by him, if they think he is the best of the young batsman give him a good chance to do well
two spinners or 1 for Lords? that's the crux decision I think
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give the young inexperience batsman who bats 6 for his county a chance to bat at 4. why the experienced players hide behind him
agree to a certain extend, especially with regard to Butler
other side of the coin is of course, 'we think you are good enough to bat top 4 and we are backing you'
depends on your viewpoint I suppose
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agree to a certain extend, especially with regard to Butler
other side of the coin is of course, 'we think you are good enough to bat top 4 and we are backing you'
depends on your viewpoint I suppose
don't get me wrong i haven't seen much of him at all so could get proven wrong. How someone can bat 6 for there county, but 4 for england
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don't get me wrong i haven't seen much of him at all so could get proven wrong. How someone can bat 6 for there county, but 4 for england
I know...back in he day we used to do the opposite..get new guys in the middle to get used to test cricket.
it's a tough ask for a 20 year old. the thing is wherever he bats he will need time to get used to better bowlers, that's obvious
there are very very few England players who are born natural test batsmen, Gower probably, pieterson yes, gooch no, Jennings no, vince no, stoneman no,westly no...the list is endless.
hameed has not worked out so far but hopefully he can come back
Pope needs the whole series to play....if he has the potential we have to start backing them 100 per cent.
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I know...back in he day we used to do the opposite..get new guys in the middle to get used to test cricket.
it's a tough ask for a 20 year old. the thing is wherever he bats he will need time to get used to better bowlers, that's obvious
there are very very few England players who are born natural test batsmen, Gower probably, pieterson yes, gooch no, Jennings no, vince no, stoneman no,westly no...the list is endless.
hameed has not worked out so far but hopefully he can come back
Pope needs the whole series to play....if he has the potential we have to start backing them 100 per cent.
totally agree stick with them for a while otherwise your going to be chopping and changing. The amount of batsman england have gone through in the past few years is ridiculous.
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give the young inexperience batsman who bats 6 for his county a chance to bat at 4. why the experienced players hide behind him
Pre Jonathan Trott, it seemed to be the case that each new batsman to the side was bumped up to bat at 3 whilst the lads settled in the side waited to come in down the order.
It is difficult to be critical of Butler without knowing what his views are on batting higher up. For all we know he may have wanted to come in higher up the order - I can't see a batsman wanting to come in as low as 7 - but the decision was to go with Pope at 4 instead
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Pre Jonathan Trott, it seemed to be the case that each new batsman to the side was bumped up to bat at 3 whilst the lads settled in the side waited to come in down the order.
It is difficult to be critical of Butler without knowing what his views are on batting higher up. For all we know he may have wanted to come in higher up the order - I can't see a batsman wanting to come in as low as 7 - but the decision was to go with Pope at 4 instead
rather see bairstow bat at 4 hes established in the team plenty of experience, why Butler is just starting his test career again
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Second test first day start delayed raining
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Second test first day start delayed raining
Sucks.....was looking forward to watching the 1st session.
I thought you guys were in the midst of a heatwave or drought or something. What's with this rain business ?
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Waiting in a bar in Greece for covers to come off and deep in debate about the first class county that has had the longest time since they last had an England test cricketer...
Google cant help but we are down to a shortlist of three. Any help out there?
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all our grounds have huge craters in them like Perth circa 1975
most of us are standing out in the rain getting soaked
its lovely
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Waiting in a bar in Greece for covers to come off and deep in debate about the first class county that has had the longest time since they last had an England test cricketer...
Google cant help but we are down to a shortlist of three. Any help out there?
Derby I think. Haven't had anyone sine Cork?
Gloucester have had Jon Lewis, and I think Broad still played for Leicester when he made his debut....
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Derby I think. Haven't had anyone sine Cork?
Gloucester have had Jon Lewis, and I think Broad still played for Leicester when he made his debut....
Thats where Id got to as well... along with Kent & Glamorgan (both saved by 2005 ashes I think)
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Tredwell debuted for England in 2010 and last played in 2015, so possibly not Kent?
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Derbyshire.
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Derbyshire.
Seriously not one player since Cork?
Should be a new rule, 10 years without a test cap for a player you 'produced' and you're a minor county.
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Tredwell debuted for England in 2010 and last played in 2015, so possibly not Kent?
Id forgotten Tredwell. Great shout.
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Seriously not one player since Cork?
Should be a new rule, 10 years without a test cap for a player you 'produced' and you're a minor county.
Can't think of one. Leicestershire had Broad, albeit briefly, and Glamorgan had Jones. So, must be Derbyshire.
Worrying thing is, where Leicestershire could argue they at least produced players - James Taylor, Broad - I can't even think fo a former Derbyshire player to play Test cricket (unless you count Ballance playing a couple of games for them)
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the closest derby have had as far as i can recall would be matt critchely playing for the lions,
i seriously doubt theres been one since cork
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Qadri looks like he could put that right shortly mind.
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Me, watching Ravi Shastri eat lunch
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkKHh_jX0AA_3cE.jpg)
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Me, watching Ravi Shastri eat lunch
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkKHh_jX0AA_3cE.jpg)
While youre in the dressing room .....review a few bats for us ! :D
Or more realistically. ....review of lunch from the ground ?
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Winning the toss and bowling. Bet Jimmy is delighted.
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wrist spinner in for India very interesred to see how we play him
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Woakes in for Stokes.
A decision I'm sure @Seniorplayer will we ecstatic about! :D
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ABSOLUTE JAFFA
-
Keep that out!
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Jimmmmmmmmmmyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
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if there has ever been anyone better id like to of seen it. with due respect to Trueman of course :)
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We don't deserve Jimmy
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Oh Jimmy Jimmy
-
is there a better opening pair than jimmy and broad in English conditions? genuinely think they are one of the greatest pairings ever. I also don't think there has been anyone with as much control and skill with a swinging ball than Jimmy.
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Now just time to get the one man army out so we can unleash jimmy on the rabbits
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So thats test cricket done for the day.
Isnt test cricket amazing when you just have to give up half an hour of your day and then you can crack with the rest of your day......
Grrr I literately just had cricket planned
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Woakes in for Stokes.
A decision I'm sure @Seniorplayer will we ecstatic about! :D
Step backwards
Don't understand it England one nil up at home should have given one of the young seamers a match
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Step backwards
Don't understand it England one nil up at home should have given one of the young seamers a match
Yeah you're right. His average in home tests of 42 with the bat and 24 with the ball is absolute rubbish, why they would select him for a home test in overcast conditions is beyond me.
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Yeah you're right. His average in home tests of 42 with the bat and 24 with the ball is absolute rubbish, why they would select him for a home test in overcast conditions is beyond me.
Actually the sun was out when the match started....
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Remember when he took 10 wickets at Lords? I don't....oh
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if there has ever been anyone better id like to of seen it. with due respect to Trueman of course :)
Truman bowled at the same pace as Anderson Fred looked quicker due to his smooth run up Anderson can swings the ball both ways late Fred couldn't.
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Remember when he took 10 wickets at Lords? I don't....oh
Against a poor Pakistan team who said so - not me the Pakistan Captain
Anyway remind me how long ago that was.
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Against a poor Pakistan team who said so - not me the Pakistan Captain
Anyway remind me how long ago that was.
A poor Pakistan team that went on to win? It was in 2016, so not too long ago
#WoakesIn
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I would quite like to see someone like Porter to be fair, but with change of bat at 4 (Malan out and Pope in) plus Stokes unable to play, I reckon it would be too risky to play a second debutant in the same Test!
My opinion is play Woakes in this Test as he is like for like all-rounder.
But unsure whether everyone else would get the gig once Stokes is back in! Curren has played well with bat and ball so they aren't going to drop him even for Woakes, unless Woakes takes loads of wickets and hits loads of runs!
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Oh my God that run out, jahashahidkl;hasd;jkflhweghw;ofhio;weh
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Oh my God that run out, jahashahidkl;hasd;jkflhweghw;ofhio;weh
Quite a calm head from pope, seen many throw in that position especially when eager to impress.
Kohli propernput sprint on to make sure pujara had no chance to beat thim though. Lol
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Seems like Kohli just switched off entirely and subsequently sold him down the river. They will now complain about being out there in the first place.
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Kohli got half way down and realised he'd have to face Jimmy under the clouds right before the rain took them off again and bailed :D
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Theres one to the new kid!!!!
Ollie Pope: AAAAAAVVVVVVVV IIIIITTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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if Kohli just trusts the call does he make the run? who's running to the danger end there?
i know Kohli's got every right to but he properly gave Pujura the dummy
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another example of Kohli thinking he's bigger than the team
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Play restarted at ten past five on day two with Jimmy bang on the money
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And England dropping of catches continues
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These Anderson/Kohli spells are so good to watch
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Who said woakes was a step backwards 😂😂😂😂
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Woakes gets kohli
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#DROPWOAKES
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All hell to break loose now, woakes
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#WoakesOut
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Who said woakes was a step backwards 😂😂😂😂
Kohli is useless. @Seniorplayer couldnt see his Christopher take wickets without doubting the batsmans integrity.
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Above the home dressing room
Drop catches not woakes
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And hardik
Anything to add @Seniorplayer
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Drop Woakes, he's rubbish
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Butter keeps dropping off Woakes than making up for it next ball. Dont think Ive seen that twice in a row before ha
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Decent delivery by Curran too! Very good toss to win it looks so far.
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if we could catch Woakes would of had 15 wickets by now
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Whats rashid doing there!?!!
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No Alex didn't see the wickets I was in the toilet when Woakes was bowling
Why? Were you returning your Woakes scouting reports?
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Kohli is useless. @Seniorplayer couldnt see his Christopher take wickets without doubting the batsmans integrity.
Don't doubt Varats integrity not all having seen the replay Kholi made a mistake trying to play that delivery to leg.
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Don't doubt Varats integrity not all having seen the replay Kholi made a mistake trying to play that delivery to leg.
So not woakes doing him with the length and shape? Like any medium trundle , have a look then whip it to leg!!
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That spell from woakes was one hell of a spell.
Kohli is best batsman in the world, but it looked like when woakes would get him, not if woakes would get him.
And he did! Two balls in a row! Shame butlers having a mare, ish, in the slips.
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So not woakes doing him with the length and shape? Like any medium trundle , have a look then whip it to leg!!
?
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Who said woakes was a step backwards 😂😂😂😂
In those conditions most English Seamers would have got wickets also with England 1- 0 up an opportunity as been missed Porter or another young seamer should have been selected
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In those conditions most English Seamers would have got wickets an opportunity as been missed England should have given porter or another young seamer a go.
Not true, broad and Curran only got 1 each... and broad is one of Englands best.
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Not true, broad and Curran only got 1 each... and broad is one of Englands best.
If that's the case
Even more reason to see what Englands next generation of seamers can do at test level
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Shame about the rain but a good test of the batsmen so far. Anderson as good as usual when its swinging and a great spell by woakes. Indian batsmen exposed again sadly.. lets prey that India bowl badly or Englands batsmen somehow cope better as history shows they arent much better. Still. Its a good test of them and thats what we want from a test match.
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(https://i.imgur.com/9cD4gad.jpg)
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Anderson getting the plaudits and right so but Woakes showed today how good he can be when fit. He has a bit of extra pace an an outswinger just like Jimmy
If you were being over critical you could say he only takes the ball away from the right handers. But....not many England bowlers can move it both ways in my memory anyway(and were any good)
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If you were being over critical you could say he only takes the ball away from the right handers. But....not many England bowlers can move it both ways in my memory anyway(and were any good)
Eh, Woakes gets loads of wickets with the one that comes back in! Shame he wasn't fit over the winter, we all know he's class in England but will be interesting to see if he can make the step up with a Kookaburra ball.
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It was an outstanding bowling performance all round. Lets see how the Indians bowl. Slip catching still found wanting. Jos Butler with 2 second chances.
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Couple of the usual suspects that could find a negative in any performance.
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Eh, Woakes gets loads of wickets with the one that comes back in! Shame he wasn't fit over the winter, we all know he's class in England but will be interesting to see if he can make the step up with a Kookaburra ball.
reality of yesterday 2 wickets in perfect English swing bowling conditions as shown in the first test against a poor indian batting side.
As for overseas sky stat showed each wicket ave over 50
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reality of yesterday 2 wickets in perfect English swing bowling conditions as shown in the first test against a poor indian batting side.
As for overseas sky stat showed each wicket ave over 50
Instead of changing test matches to 4 days, or playing them at night, or getting in some dancing girls, they should use the duke ball all round the world, or get kookuburra to make a ball with a bigger seam, that would get the balance in favour of the bowlers and make it more attractive to the public.
Even Pointing has tried (not sure if he achieved it) getting the duke ball in shield cricket.
I think bat dominating ball has made tests a bit boring for the average punter.
If you look at Ashwin, he still bowled brilliantly in the first test with a dukes so quality spinners I don't think would be affected by a different ball than a kook or sg....
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.. and broad is one of Englands best.
I disagree, I think Broad is on a one way moped-ride to pootown.
I dont think he will be in the side by the end of the year.
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Instead of changing test matches to 4 days, or playing them at night, or getting in some dancing girls, they should use the duke ball all round the world, or get kookuburra to make a ball with a bigger seam, that would get the balance in favour of the bowlers and make it more attractive to the public.
Even Pointing has tried (not sure if he achieved it) getting the duke ball in shield cricket.
I think bat dominating ball has made tests a bit boring for the average punter.
If you look at Ashwin, he still bowled brilliantly in the first test with a dukes so quality spinners I don't think would be affected by a different ball than a kook or sg....
I agree .....kook balls should be ditched for dukes in all tests , everywhere.
Oz have been using dukes for 2nd half of the shield season for the last 2 years (i think) , and i haven't heard any news of them ditching it , so i guess it will happen again this season (it would be stupid to stop doing this now , considering an ashes tour coming up next year).
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With England 1-0 up hope that doesn't influence there thinking and they bat to long timewise ideally score 300 and get India batting their second innings before lunch tomorrow.
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Perfect batting day - rack them up. One of those win the toss win the match
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Early indications show the Indian bowers arent getting anywhere near the same action on the ball as England did. Not great lines either.
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Jennings gone. Unconvincing so far if truth be told....everyone needs time but we don't convince with the bat much these days
It's a poor shot more than anything right across the line on a seaming and swinging wicket
Did Fattus call it right a couple of weeks back?
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Flat track bully cook goes too
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India a seam bowler short here.
Touch not easy to bat on, once sharma and shami fount here minces it was difficult.
Root thought but never looked in.
Pope looked good on not an easy track.
But now we are passed the hard bit, woakes and bairstow settling in and taking us to a good lead!
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Whos this Woakes clown, looking out of his depth again.
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Only seen popes knock today but he looked good
Seemed to have a technique to succeed hope he gets a run in the side at 4 and scores!
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Half century up for Woakes
#WoakesOut #DropWoakes
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Half century up for Woakes
#WoakesOut #DropWoakes
Not normally one for controversy but Woakes really is an excellent cricketer and walks into EVERY other test team on the planet
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Not normally one for controversy but Woakes really is an excellent cricketer and walks into EVERY other test team on the planet
Unless he has a kook ball in his hands.
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Unless he has a kook ball in his hands.
So who would you pick as an all rounder ahead of him - even with a kook ball?
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20 with the bat away from Eng and 60 with the ball.
In England 19 with the ball and 45 with the bat...
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20 with the bat away from Eng and 60 with the ball.
In England 19 with the ball and 45 with the bat...
So perhaps just pick him to tour England ;-)
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20 with the bat away from Eng and 60 with the ball.
In England 19 with the ball and 45 with the bat...
I hear what you're saying , but i remember jimmy's first tour to oz .....looked worse than woakes away from home. What im saying is that woakes has enough talent to figure out his o.s test game , with bat and ball. Too talented . Pick him and stick with him. And drop broad to fit him in when stokes gets back.
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#DropWoakes
What a step backwards
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Oh look, Woakesy has tonned up, but he's still pony
#DropWoakes
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CHRIS WOAKES!!!
GET IN LAD!
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Woakes > Stokes
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I might be being hyper critical but bairstow really needs to start covnerting
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Why haven't we declared yet?
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We probably should declare. Plenty on board, have a few overs at them tonight.
We are far to defensive though.
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Too many overs left today still, will want 10-15 at the tonight so they get two goes with the new cherry.
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I hear what you're saying , but i remember jimmy's first tour to oz .....looked worse than woakes away from home. What im saying is that woakes has enough talent to figure out his o.s test game , with bat and ball. Too talented . Pick him and stick with him. And drop broad Jennings to fit him in when stokes gets back.
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Also, bloody delighted for Woakes. What a player.
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I might be being hyper critical but bairstow really needs to start covnerting
Whats covnerting? Is it a bit like twerking?
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20 with the bat away from Eng and 60 with the ball.
In England 19 with the ball and 45 with the bat...
[/
Yep the best of the best have an ave that stands out not just in helpful conditions at home but on different surfaces all around the world.
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Here we go......
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So who gets dropped for Stokes?
Is buttler's place at risk?
Or else Broad or Curran I guess
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England is one of the hardest places in the world to bat. Saying woakes average here doesnt matter is just deluded
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So who gets dropped for Stokes?
Is buttler's place at risk?
Or else Broad or Curran I guess
I personally am not sure stokes will make it into the current side. Not good enough as an out and out batsman and you cant drop any of our bowlers who have just bowled the no.1 test side out 3 times for under 200 or the all rounder who came in and got Kohli and a ton
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I personally am not sure stokes will make it into the current side. Not good enough as an out and out batsman and you cant drop any of our bowlers who have just bowled the no.1 test side out 3 times for under 200 or the all rounder who came in and got Kohli and a ton
You do realise stokes was the main man in one of those scores under 200?
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The obvious answer to that would be Woakes.
Delighted he got runs today as well as wicket, he really is a good player.
Impossible to leave out now , personally will lose or draw this match I would keep the same side
Stokes would have to wait
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You do realise stokes was the main man in one of those scores under 200?
No I know, I didnt really phrase that right, all Im saying is that you cant drop any of the other bowlers, and you cant drop woakes after his performance in this game
I personally would drop butler, but he is now VC so doubt it will happen hence why I doubt he will make the side
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Is Buttler not the most at risk, Stokes can do the same as he does with the bat, and Bowl (and catch!)
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Drop broad
He turns up sporadically and does really need to take his bat or with him.
Plus its mean woakes gets the new ball now and can learn with Anderson, rather than his the given t when Anderson and braid retire.
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Just for Senior
At the close of day 3 Chris Woakes leads India by 13 runs :D
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Genuine question
List batting avg for stokes, woakes, ali
Then list bowling
I suspect we will get out answer on who to pick
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England is one of the hardest places in the world to bat. Saying woakes average here doesnt matter is just deluded
Not if you are brought up on English wickets what is deluded is the thought that one good match at home in favourable batting and bowling conditions makes a test match player...
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Boring deluded old man
Give the bloke some credit when its due
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Just for Senior
At the close of day 3 Chris Woakes leads India by 13 runs :D
Just for Cam
There's no doubting Woakes grasped his opportunity.
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Jimmy <3
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Kohli running away from the new ball?
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Kohli running away from the new ball?
He didnt field this morning, back spasm or something similar
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Kohli looks done for - cant imagine him playing the next couple of test matches.
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Great ball from Broad to get Rahane out
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Has anyone heard any ticket info about tomorrow? If it goes that far...
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Drop Broad...
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Drop Broad...
Broad is showing after Anderson why he is the best seam bowler for England
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Not a great bowler but a bowler of great spells
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And probably the worst exponent of DRS since Shane Watson
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Not a great bowler but a bowler of great spells
Yes great match winning spells
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And now Broad has Kholi
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Broad is showing after Anderson why he is the best seam bowler for England
Yet when woakes does the same youd say
Doesnt really show much, bad India under the pump with an injured Kohli in perfect bowling conditions. Shouldnt be playing
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And to prove it Broad has karkhik
What a spell 11 overs 4 wickets 16 runs
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Broad looks to be really running in today which is good to see.
India def had the worst of the conditions to bat in this match but as sangakara has said you have to get used to it. When we go abroad this winter it's our Achilles heel of spin which will be exposed and down to our batters to improve against it.
pretty sure pre Sri Lanka tour Sanga found a county to play for to acclimatise properly, certainly is the last part of his career
Huge emphasis on preparation and practice listening to him talk surely a lesson for us all in there.
Practice ...and practice :)
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Yes great match winning spells
Does that mens woakes hundred is a test winning innings too?
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Please keep up Alex. :)
Woakes strolls off with the MOM award.
2-0 !
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He shouldnt be in the team
Scoring hundreds taking wickets and what with everyone saying hes the nicest guy youd hope to meet
Drop him now
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Anyway. Moving on from the senile/woakes saga.
Not much go between now and the grid test. Will kohlis back have recovered enough? Hows ashwins hand??
Youd presume at little jadeja and dhwahan come in for those two and that should mean England win easily.
Do we think any bigger changes?
Id like to see pant given a go. India should follow England and blood some youngsters.
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Jadeja should of been in the last match he has to come in, the problem India have is despite being number 1 in the world their top order has no experience of English conditions. Kholi is by far the best bat on show on either side and can cope thru sheer skill
I read a stat India have changed their team 25 consecutive matches or something, so more changes now won't really matter.
wrong team as well with leaving the seamer out
Far as I know with day 1 washed out they could still of named the extra seamer at start of day 2-correct me if I'm wrong.
They have nothing to lose by giving Pant a game now and hope it's sunny at Trent bridge when they bat.
On a wider scale, the away team being awarded the toss argument becomes more relevant when an Asian team comes here.
They have to even it up for away sides I think. Same when we tour Sri Lanka in the winter.
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Talking about who to drop to get Stokes back in. Closing arguments from the various lawyers are on Monday, so are we that sure he is going to be available?
If he is - no one has mentioned dropping Rashid.... he didn't bowl a ball in this test and if the conditions are the same at Trent Bridge then do we really need a spinner?
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GOAT
(https://i.redditmedia.com/trE4Gnco-ECPs1lspvEajJoe9b-f-BU5upcHSM4Mq3s.jpg?w=768&s=266fe498cd21236721957eaa1cbe382e)
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GOAT
(https://i.redditmedia.com/trE4Gnco-ECPs1lspvEajJoe9b-f-BU5upcHSM4Mq3s.jpg?w=768&s=266fe498cd21236721957eaa1cbe382e)
+ 1 catch opportunity he never even saw ! :D
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So is it true that Broad was back bowling at just under 90mph??
Also i like Rashid as a spinner! He will go for a few runs but leggirs always take wickets.
Who to drop? Curren and Woakes have both taken their opportunity! If conditions are the same as Lords then drop Rashid. Id we need a front line spinner then either SC or CW! Glad i'm not a selector!!!
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Yeah when he changed ends and started taking wickets he was up at 88mph
He always seems to find a spell when it looks like hes favourite to be dropped!
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Wouldn't be surprised if Selectors leave out Pope but If they do that who bats 4
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I don't think Stokes will be named in the squad for the 3rd test
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He shouldnt be in the team
Scoring hundreds taking wickets and what with everyone saying hes the nicest guy youd hope to meet
Drop him now
Actually it's one hundred in 26 tests in an England test shirt
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Yet when woakes does the same youd say
Doesnt really show much, bad India under the pump with an injured Kohli in perfect bowling conditions. Shouldnt be playing
Had a read through my posts Chris no mention of any of the above apart from perfect bowling conditions
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If Stokes is available then Curran misses out for me. Done nothing wrong by Stokes is the better player at this stage od their respective careers. To be a top side you need to have the luxury of having enough options that you find yourself leaving out good players in good form. Makes a change from recent times where it seems that we struggle to name an 11 so limited have been our options
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Actually it's one hundred in 26 tests in an England test shirt
23 of which he has batted at either 8 or 9 where we all know it's easy to score big runs.
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1 catch opportunity he never even saw ! :D
I believe Adil told you all, he doesn't PLAY red ball cricket! :)
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If Stokes is available then Curran misses out for me. Done nothing wrong by Stokes is the better player at this stage od their respective careers. To be a top side you need to have the luxury of having enough options that you find yourself leaving out good players in good form. Makes a change from recent times where it seems that we struggle to name an 11 so limited have been our options
If Stokes is available....lets not bank on it, but if he is, I think this is where rotation comes into play. Rest one of the older guys for this game, the other for the fourth. Curran is doing nicely enough, and should as far as possible be given the series to develop into international cricket - having originally worried that he might not be sharp enough for international cricket, his ability to move the ball both ways has proved sufficient, along with his left arm angle, and the three games left this year, and six over the winter, are great times for him to bed into the squad.
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Or maybe England pick a few more youngsters in the XI and then beat India..just to rub it in!
Not sure if India has anyone in their squad who can help reverse the tide. You know it is really really bad when Ashwin wins a poll to open the batting for India in the next test.
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Thing is they've had Agarwal, Iyer, Shaw, Pant and Nair all here in the A side, and all scoring runs against County and Lions opposition.
Certainly had more exposure to the moving ball than some of the test players. Thought Pujara looked comfortable, well effective until out in the second, and was unfortunately run out in the first.
No idea what Vijay was thinking trying to turn that ball to leg in the first innings, and got a ripper in the second. Rahane looks good in flashes. KL Rahul is batting too high in the order for Test cricket - they need to decide what they're doing sharpish with the batting, else it'll be over quickly this week as well.
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Whats happened to Vijai, I remembered him looking excellent here last time around, though not sure if the stats back that up.
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Dont think India have any immediate answers to their batting woes..the trouble with all the young names listed above is that all of them are stroke makers. You need someone who is ready to be patient and concentrate over long periods. One name which is being discussed is Hanuma Vihari. He has been getting a lot of runs and is someone who like to take his time. But not sure if he will get a call ahead of all the star names.
Of course one could argue if anyone would be able to perform well against this England line up when assisted by the weather. Jimmy & Co. bowled brilliantly but that was more to do with the weather conditions. Would they be able to do the same anywhere else in the world? I highly doubt it. Sometimes you just have to accept the fact that it might be a challenge facing attacks in favorable home conditions.
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23 of which he has batted at either 8 or 9 where we all know it's easy to score big runs.
But easy to boost your ave with not outs
Anyway it's quite possible the ECB will review the stokes situation before selecting him
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But easy to boost your ave with not outs
Anyway it's quite possible the ECB will review the stokes situation before selecting him
Bloody Woakes, hitting a match winning unbeaten hundred to boost his average!
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Bloody Woakes, hitting a match winning unbeaten hundred to boost his average!
Telling me, the cheek of it! How very dare he!
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Dont think India have any immediate answers to their batting woes..the trouble with all the young names listed above is that all of them are stroke makers. You need someone who is ready to be patient and concentrate over long periods. One name which is being discussed is Hanuma Vihari. He has been getting a lot of runs and is someone who like to take his time. But not sure if he will get a call ahead of all the star names.
Of course one could argue if anyone would be able to perform well against this England line up when assisted by the weather. Jimmy & Co. bowled brilliantly but that was more to do with the weather conditions. Would they be able to do the same anywhere else in the world? I highly doubt it. Sometimes you just have to accept the fact that it might be a challenge facing attacks in favorable home conditions.
Quite agree, that said Ashwin showed that if you are dogged, and avoid playing the ball away from your body, and attempt to hit the ball 'in the V' then you can survive and ultimately prosper. The swing bowling has been top class, but they aren't helping themselves playing with angled bats and chasing after the ball.
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Bloody Woakes, hitting a match winning unbeaten hundred to boost his average!
Bowlers win test matches Wasn't it's Anderson and Broads bowling that won the match
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Bowlers win test matches Wasn't it's Anderson and Broads bowling that won the match
Didn't Woakes remove Kohli in the first innings and take the final (match winning) wicket in India's second innings?
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i now really don't think Stokes is going to be available for the 3rd Test one way or another.
they have just announced that Stokes and Hales are going to face a CDC (Cricket Disciplinary Committee) hearing straight after the Trial has finished - even if he is found not guilty. See link below -
http://www.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/11471609/ben-stokes-and-alex-hales-to-face-cricket-disciplinary-committee-cdc-hearing (http://www.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/11471609/ben-stokes-and-alex-hales-to-face-cricket-disciplinary-committee-cdc-hearing)
Surely they will just name the same squad.
As for India - god knows! they change their team for every match so?
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Bowlers win test matches Wasn't it's Anderson and Broads bowling that won the match
You're right, which is why a quality all-rounder like Woakes is perfect!
Anderson can take all the wickets he likes, if we're 100 ao it makes no difference.
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i now really don't think Stokes is going to be available for the 3rd Test one way or another.
they have just announced that Stokes and Hales are going to face a CDC (Cricket Disciplinary Committee) hearing straight after the Trial has finished - even if he is found not guilty. See link below -
[url]http://www.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/11471609/ben-stokes-and-alex-hales-to-face-cricket-disciplinary-committee-cdc-hearing[/url] ([url]http://www.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/11471609/ben-stokes-and-alex-hales-to-face-cricket-disciplinary-committee-cdc-hearing[/url])
Surely they will just name the same squad.
As for India - god knows! they change their team for every match so?
I think they will name the same squad too, trent bridge should seam and with Rashid if it spins at all if the game goes 4 or 5 days
India have changed 25 consecutive matches or something, you would think for them at least the seamer comes in the kuldeep
I would find a way to get jadeja in the team myself, he is a quality player
this tour...so far....slightly surprisingly is taking the same pattern as when they were here 4 years ago. they have better bowlers now plus Kholi, but the rest is the same.
which maybe shows the gulf between winning matches at home and playing away
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Jadeja and a seamer for Pandya and Yadav?
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Jadeja and a seamer for Pandya and Yadav?
they have got more problems than we have I think. I would shift a top order batsman to get jadeja in myself. but quite how I don't know.
it begs the question if you drop one of the top 3 to get an allrounder in......who opens the batting.
jadeja in for kuldeep(the chinaman bowler) would make sense......
Pandya im not sure about, I think he could be a big player for India but no one really rates him ive spoken to... tricky
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Problem is in English conditions you cannot turn a fourth seamer (Pandya) into a third seamer. He's got talent, but he doesn't have a role in the team unless they are prepared to play four seamers, which is probably not what they should do.
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Pandya I quite like too, but ultimately he's only got one first-class century (for India mind). He looks like he's on the cusp of delivering in every game though - and they need the bowling options without depleting their batting any farther.
They could easily play Pandya, Jadeja and Ashwin if their top 4 and keeper were delivering consistent runs.
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On the one hand,maybe - Jadeja started out as a batsman who bowled a few overs. On the other, you've seen their batting so far, right?
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they have got more problems than we have I think. I would shift a top order batsman to get jadeja in myself. but quite how I don't know.
it begs the question if you drop one of the top 3 to get an allrounder in......who opens the batting.
jadeja in for kuldeep(the chinaman bowler) would make sense......
Pandya im not sure about, I think he could be a big player for India but no one really rates him ive spoken to... tricky
Runs are India's biggest problem so for me i think Kuldeep goes and either bring Dhawan back or pick the youngster Pant. So you have 6 batters allowing Pandya, Kartik and Ashwin to drop down a spot. Then go in with Shami, Ishant, Pandya and Ashwin and hope it turns or at least Ashwin holds a bit of an end up.
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You're right, which is why a quality all-rounder like Woakes is perfect!
Anderson can take all the wickets he likes, if we're 100 ao it makes no difference.
Exactly that's why Indias 107 first innings was never enough the way they were batting and with there second innings still to come if needed in the context of the match England had a big enough lead before Woakes came to the crease although woakes batting took the game beyond India couldn't call it match winning
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Exactly that's why Indias 107 first innings was never enough the way they were batting and with there second innings still to come if needed in the context of the match England had a big enough lead before Woakes came to the crease although woakes batting took the game beyond India couldn't call it match winning
Bet if it was Buttler or Curran who finished 137* you would have thought differently
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Pandya is neither a proper batsman nor a proper bowler...cricketers like him are perfect in limited overs where you need someone to bowl a few overs and get a few runs...but in Test Cricket, you need to be strong and reliable in one of the disciplines. India cannot afford to have someone like him when the batting is failing and the bowling is lacking resources.
Looking at the conditions, Jadeja really wont be of much use either...India need to get Bumrah in. He was class in South Africa. I would go with Shami, Bumrah, Yadav and Ashwin as the bowlers.
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England name unchanged squad.
Stokes availability to be discussed after the trial has ended.
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Pandya is neither a proper batsman nor a proper bowler...cricketers like him are perfect in limited overs where you need someone to bowl a few overs and get a few runs...but in Test Cricket, you need to be strong and reliable in one of the disciplines. India cannot afford to have someone like him when the batting is failing and the bowling is lacking resources.
Looking at the conditions, Jadeja really wont be of much use either...India need to get Bumrah in. He was class in South Africa. I would go with Shami, Bumrah, Yadav and Ashwin as the bowlers.
We've had a dry summer, guess it depends on the local conditions. Turning the ball away from a right hander may be useful now we have more of them in the side.
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Pandya is neither a proper batsman nor a proper bowler...cricketers like him are perfect in limited overs where you need someone to bowl a few overs and get a few runs...but in Test Cricket, you need to be strong and reliable in one of the disciplines. India cannot afford to have someone like him when the batting is failing and the bowling is lacking resources.
Looking at the conditions, Jadeja really wont be of much use either...India need to get Bumrah in. He was class in South Africa. I would go with Shami, Bumrah, Yadav and Ashwin as the bowlers.
Bumrah would be great and would obviously get picked but is he going to be fit?
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stokes left out of third test
that has to be the right call
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stokes left out of third test
that has to be the right call
Agreed. Give him time to get his head straight. And to be honest the team is going pretty well without him at the moment!
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Damn Woakes, making match winning contributions against the world's number 1 ranked side to artificially boost his place in the ICC rankings!
England's Chris Woakes has broken into the top ten of the ICC's all-rounder rankings following his man of the match performance at Lord's.
The 29-year old has risen to seventh after scoring an unbeaten 137 and taking four wickets as England beat India by an innings and 159 runs.
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India are trash simple as. They have a few outstanding players such as Kohli, Ashwin and Shami.
Vijay, pujara, Karthik look no more than flat track bullies.
Kuldeep looks like a new version of Ajantha Mendis, decent enough in limited overs but lacks skills for red ball cricket.
India's biggest concern will be how rubbish Rahul and Rahane have become.
5-0 easy money. We would win by playing with only 9 players
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Chris Woakes isn't a 'quality all rounder' that's Ben Stokes. Woakes gets away with it in home conditions yet when he plays overseas he continually lets the side down
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India are trash simple as. They have a few outstanding players such as Kohli, Ashwin and Shami.
Vijay, pujara, Karthik look no more than flat track bullies.
Kuldeep looks like a new version of Ajantha Mendis, decent enough in limited overs but lacks skills for red ball cricket.
India's biggest concern will be how rubbish Rahul and Rahane have become.
5-0 easy money. We would win by playing with only 9 players
I knew India is going to lose all the 5 tests before it even began. The team selection isn't right from the word go.
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I knew India is going to lose all the 5 tests before it even began. The team selection isn't right from the word go.
7/2 still available, get the mortgage on.
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Bumrah would be great and would obviously get picked but is he going to be fit?
I saw him bowling in the nets at Lord's and he looked to be for to bowl. Whether he is fit enough to play a 5 day test match is another matter. A few years ago there would be tour matches interspersed with the tests so that players coming back from injury or needing time in the middle could get ready for the tests bit playing a 5 match series in 6 weeks allows no time at all for that
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Isn't Bumrah's issue that he's got a broken bone in his non bowling hand? So fitness shouldn't be an issue. It's just he can't field or bat.
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To be honest, you can't go wrong with Woakes technique, so why not let him have a go at opening the batting? He certainly can't do any worse than any other of the openers that have been given a go, and he still has his bowling even if he fails!
1. Cook
2. Woakes
3. Root
4. Pope
5. Bairstow
6. Stokes
7. Buttler
8. S Curran
9. Rashid
10. Broad
11. Anderson
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To be honest, you can't go wrong with Woakes technique, so why not let him have a go at opening the batting? He certainly can't do any worse than any other of the openers that have been given a go, and he still has his bowling even if he fails!
1. Cook
2. Woakes
3. Root
4. Pope
5. Bairstow
6. Stokes
7. Buttler
8. S Curran
9. Rashid
10. Broad
11. Anderson
In before @edge berates you for having 6 bowlers ;)
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In before @edge berates you for having 6 bowlers ;)
Only don't have 6 bowlers if you can't get 6 bowlers into the side is my opinion!
Woakes is batting as good as anyone else in the team so why not let him play as one?
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Hard to argue given the way he batted last time out - but there's a reason none of the big scorers in the series (bar Kohli) are middle order players. None made against the new ball as yet.
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Chris Woakes isn't a 'quality all rounder' that's Ben Stokes. Woakes gets away with it in home conditions yet when he plays overseas he continually lets the side down
Been saying it for a while now
But he's a forum favourite whose performances cannot be questioned
Even when Some one on here published his stats
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I am not comparing or glorifying but I am surprised to see India be such considering I thought they were a better team compared to Pakistan who were 2-2 in 2016 and 1-1 in 2018.
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One of Broad, Curran or Woakes has to go if Stokes is coming back in. Enjoy that chat Ed Smith!
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Id prefer Buttler opening over Woakes.
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Please can we have a middle order of Bairstow/Stokes/Pope , gingers across the country will be delighted.
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One of Broad, Curran or Woakes has to go if Stokes is coming back in. Enjoy that chat Ed Smith!
it shouldnt be but itll be curran
stokes should miss out id also wager hes in worse form than both curran and woakes
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Would be a shame to see Curran out, the lads done exactly what was asked of him.
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If all remain fit.id like to see.
Rest broad for the third test
Rest anderson for the fourth(be interesting if we win without)
Rest Curran for the fifth
Five prong seam attack evenly rested .
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They have already hinted at "rotation" so maybe that's the way forward
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If all remain fit.id like to see.
Rest broad for the third test
Rest anderson for the fourth(be interesting if we win without)
Rest Curran for the fifth
Five prong seam attack evenly rested .
I'd like to see something along these lines, Woakes to take the new ball when either Jimmy or Broad is missing.
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Would be a shame to see Curran out, the lads done exactly what was asked of him.
Yes. It's mean to say he's everything his brother is not but in international terms...
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If all remain fit.id like to see.
Rest broad for the third test
Rest anderson for the fourth(be interesting if we win without)
Rest Curran for the fifth
Five prong seam attack evenly rested .
I really hope they dont leave Curran out espically if he continues in the same vain as the first two tests, give him the whole series for experience and continue to blood the youngsters,
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No one suggesting dropping Buttler?
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No one suggesting dropping Buttler?
They made him vice captain. Plus we dont need six bowlers?
Only used four in the two day game at lords......
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They made him vice captain. Plus we dont need six bowlers?
Only used four in the two day game at lords......
And so far the fuss over Rashid has proved unfounded because he has hardly done anything in two games :)
Only a fool would predict an outcome on what might happen in a cricket match at any level
I'm sure I'll be making some more predictions before bedtime!
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Curran to make way for Stokes. Stokes is a better batsman, bowler and fielder. It maybe that Broad and Anderson will be rotated in the remaining tests so that Woakes, Stokes and Curran all play together but it is hard to see the need to rotate at Trent bridge given the workloads the bowling unit had at Lord's
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Curran to make way for Stokes. Stokes is a better batsman, bowler and fielder. It maybe that Broad and Anderson will be rotated in the remaining tests so that Woakes, Stokes and Curran all play together but it is hard to see the need to rotate at Trent bridge given the workloads the bowling unit had at Lord's
Yes indeed....but even better in my day Bob Willis said the other night Voce,statham,Truman,Botham,Willis....the best pairing ever for us is broad and Anderson
So does resting them for a game prolong their careers? They are miles ahead of any other bowlers we have
Maybe they won't rest them this series, no more tests till Sri Lanka so would it be better to miss that tour?
We will surely play two spinners in the tests there you would think
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We will surely play two spinners in the tests there you would think
At least 2. The problem will be finding some good enough. The pitches will turn from day 1 if their recent home games are anything to go by
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Well why not have a 4-pronged spin attack for Sri Lanka, and rest them both (and Stokes possibly)!!
Woakes
Ali
Curran
Bess
Rashid
Leach
What a tail that is!!! Then just pick your 5 best batters against spin and posiibly swap out one of the spinners for Stokes.
I mean Sri Lanka is simply ridiculous for spin, so this might not be as mad as it sounds!!
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Well why not have a 4-pronged spin attack for Sri Lanka, and rest them both (and Stokes possibly)!!
Woakes
Ali
Curran
Bess
Rashid
Leach
What a tail that is!!! Then just pick your 5 best batters against spin and posiibly swap out one of the spinners for Stokes.
I mean Sri Lanka is simply ridiculous for spin, so this might not be as mad as it sounds!!
this is mad as a box of frogs
4 spinners!!
LOVE IT
heavy rumours the wicket at Colombo spun the roller off before the last test match
poor groundsman ended up on his backside.
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I doubt you'd play four in a test, but three is believable, together with three seamers - especially as Ali, for all his many faults, is one of our best players of spin/in conditions where the ball won't rise above his knees.
Wondering aloud what that might look like, I'm thinking perhaps:
Cook
Jennings
Root
Ali
Bairstow
Pope
Stokes
Curran/Woakes
Rashid
Jamie Overton (someone seriously quick for short bursts, take the pitch out of it)
Leach
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Leach has to go on that tour I would think. Hopefully gets some overs between now and the end of the season to make sure.
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I doubt you'd play four in a test, but three is believable, together with three seamers - especially as Ali, for all his many faults, is one of our best players of spin/in conditions where the ball won't rise above his knees.
Wondering aloud what that might look like, I'm thinking perhaps:
Cook
Jennings
Root
Ali
Bairstow
Pope
Stokes
Curran/Woakes
Rashid
Jamie Overton (someone seriously quick for short bursts, take the pitch out of it)
Leach
If Stokes plays he'll bat at 6, no exceptions. They've shown in the past couple of years that the test side is basically built around him batting at 6, it's where he likes to bat and it's where the management like him to bat.
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Yes indeed....but even better in my day Bob Willis said the other night Voce,statham,Truman,Botham,Willis....the best pairing ever for us is broad and Anderson
So does resting them for a game prolong their careers? They are miles ahead of any other bowlers we have
Maybe they won't rest them this series, no more tests till Sri Lanka so would it be better to miss that tour?
We will surely play two spinners in the tests there you would think
Not sure whether it is just me but both Broad and Anderson only play Test cricket so do they really needed to be rested for Sri Lanka and West Indies?
India series finishes September 11th (5th day) then Sri Lanka is a 3 Test series in November then no cricket at all until the West Indies tour which is February-March.
Even after that the World Cup is on so we don't have Test cricket till the Ireland Test in July - i realise they will be playing CC cricket but they will pick and choose their games there.
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Wonder how effective Broad would be on Sri Lankan pitches?
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Wonder how effective Broad would be on Sri Lankan pitches?
if he is not that effective I dread to think what the forum might think Woakes would do. stick of rhubarb job.
Tin hat on im off for a pint
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An Indian on another forum posted this message today
On the occasion of Independence day let us all remember those who struggled for us against the British and are still Struggling....Specially Murali Vijay, Shikar Dhavan, K. L. Rahul, Dinesh Karthik, Hardik Pandya and the entire INDIAN Team........GOD Bless
Made me chuckle
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We won't need any seamers in Sri Lanka, the pitches have been sandpits against Australia and South Africa. We will need 3 spinners minimum and then probably Stokes and Woakes as seaming options
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Sarfaraz was recently asked why Pak has been able to perform better than other asian teams in Eng. As an Indian fan, as much as it pains me to agree with the Pak skipper, the point he made did make a lot of sense.
He put it down to Pak always arriving early (25 days) to England and playing 2-3 practice games before the first test. This would give them sufficient time to acclimatize to the conditions. Sadly with India and their packed schedule, there is no time to acclimatize. Its just one series after another. OF course there are other factors, but I definitely think this is one the biggest ones.
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Stokes in for Curran
Rest the same
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Very poor decision. Curran effectively won the first test for us, genuinely shocked.
Bayliss ooooooot
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Remind me why Buttler is in this team again?
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Sarfaraz was recently asked why Pak has been able to perform better than other asian teams in Eng. As an Indian fan, as much as it pains me to agree with the Pak skipper, the point he made did make a lot of sense.
He put it down to Pak always arriving early (25 days) to England and playing 2-3 practice games before the first test. This would give them sufficient time to acclimatize to the conditions. Sadly with India and their packed schedule, there is no time to acclimatize. Its just one series after another. OF course there are other factors, but I definitely think this is one the biggest ones.
The main factor is that they have good swing bowlers. India, to be blunt, don't.
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Very poor decision. Curran effectively won the first test for us, genuinely shocked.
Bayliss ooooooot
Not sure I agree with that decision.
And although had a n other been dropped, the batting line up would have been stronger, we cant moan its weaker with said decision.
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Although it must have been a very tough decision regarding who to drop - i really think they have made the wrong one.
Surely it had to be Rashid or Buttler - dependent on whether Root really thinks he is going to need a spinner etc....
I know they have swapped like for like regards allrounders but we had the chance to give ourselves an extra bowling option and/or strengthen the batting
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So they drop the one guy who brings variety to the attack..
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Dont agree with this decision! For me the left arm angle provides some variety plus the team has just won convincingly, why would you change it?!
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shocking decision to drop Curran. Man of the match in the first test bowled and batted well in the second then dropped because stokes can play again.
England won the last game very convincingly and I cant see why you would change that team
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Sam Curran dropped?!!!
I guess the same "wisdom" that appointed Root as captain is probably behind this decision as well. Truly dumb!
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Whilst I don't agree with dropping Curran at all (I would have dropped Rashid or Buttler) It's pretty tough to argue that the team isn't stronger with Stokes in for Curran.
After all Stokes is a far better player than Curran (at this point in time..)
I'll get my tin hat.
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How did anyone not see that coming..? A shame to drop Curran, but to get Stokes back in it was the hugely obvious choice.
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England made the correct call. It would've been a toss up between Woakes and Curran, Woakes got a hundred last game so keeps his place.
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You could take the view if you were cynical butler and Rashid were Smiths picks so they were not going to be dropped.
Root def wanted stokes back so it's harsh but it has to be Curran.
Rashid has no had a chance yet to prove much, but does Butler need to make a contribution this match to keep hold of his place?
As has been pointed out specialist number 7 is a bit of an odd position....
I like butler a lot but if he plays long term I think he has to keep.
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How did anyone not see that coming..? A shame to drop Curran, but to get Stokes back in it was the hugely obvious choice.
Completely agree. The only surprise is that anyone is surprised by the decision. Stokes is one of the best players available to England. Ali, Woakes and Curran are fighting for one place and it is hard to argue against Woakes unless the surface required a second spinner
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I am not sure that Butler batting at 7 should effect the balance of the aide between batsmen and bowlers. We are lucky in Bairstow to have a keeper who is also a top batsman. In terms of the balance of the side, it is no different to picking 6 batsmen and the keeper at 7. With Stokes and Bairstow in the top order, it gives us the luxury of picking the extra batsman or bolwer whichever is needed most. Given the form of the top order, it is hard to argue for leaving out a batsman for another bowler
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It does seem harsh, but surely it would have seemed harsh no matter who was dropped for Stokes!
He is one of the best, if not THE best all rounder at the moment. So you have Jimmy and Stu as openers. Then you have Rashid as leggie and Root as Offie. Then Stokes as change bowler and only one more bowler needed!! Cook is not on top form and neither is Jennings so far. Pope is new too, so we don't have the luxury or having all our top order batsmen firing at the moment! So Buttler makes a stronger case in these circumstances than an extra bowler/all-rounder would!!
I do like Curren but suspect he will be in the Test team again very soon.
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Poor decision I think, Broad shouldnt continue to be selected on the basis of the occasional spell when he gets it right
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Dropped worries me - should it not read "rotated out"?
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Dropped worries me - should it not read "rotated out"?
You can't rotate a 20 year old desperate to play and just starting his test career :) I presume your tongue is firmly in cheek!
Just thinking about this selection again Chris Woakes has right cocked this up hasn't he? Who would of thought he would hit a big ton and mess up selection
'Oh he's got his ton Trevor we had it all planned for Trent bridge for Stokesy'. ' 'Ah bollax Joe are we sure Woaksey is 101 per cent fit , turn the bleep test up to terminator '
Seriously it's very tough on Curran. I'm a huge fan of Cook but the two openers need to make a contribution this game, they are probably kept in because
Cook has a massive amount of runs behind him so gets extra time
Jennings look to of improved a bit and has potential.....
And......you might struggle to name an outstanding top 3 player in County cricket to replace either of them at the moment.
There might be someone at Warwickshire, a bit older,but....if he keeps scoring runs :)
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To me the shock is that Buttler keeps his place.
Is a lower order of Stokes, Woakes, Curran, Rash a weaker line-up than Stokes, Buttler, Curran/Woakes, Rash?
I love watching Buttler bat but this is red ball not white ball! Buttler is class in white ball, bang average so far in red.
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Short memory if you're calling Buttler bang average... He was our best batter v Pakistan and marshalled the tail well.
He is still a luxury though, and for me that's who I would have dropped
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Buttler is a luxury, but do you "rotate him out" and play Curren instead? That would mean you have Jimmy, Stu, Woakes, Stokes, Curran, plus Rash and Root as spin options? 7 bowlers?
Surely that's a luxury too? I admit that Curran looks as strong with the bat as Buttler is (or even stronger on current form) but I thought the idea wasn't to play a bowler for their batting ability?
Surely if Buttler is not in form and is a luxury and 7 bowlers (if you include Root) is also a luxury, then you have the opportunity to play.......
1. Cook
2. Jennings
3. Gubbins (or Vince / simiar)
4. Root
5. Pope
6. Stokes
7. Bairstow
8. Woakes / Curran
9. Rashid
10. Stu
11. Jimmy swinger
This would strengthen the batting, get another top order batsman tested at this level, strengthen the middle order, Root could play at his preferred position, the keeper can bat at 7, and we still have plenty of bowling?
Just throwing in a slightly different option there ;)
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Tails never fails..... were bowling!!
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India with 3 changes-
Out - Vijay, Kartik and Kuldeep
In - Darwan, Pant and Bumrah
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I never get people who moan about too many bowlers.
As long as your top 7 are all test standard batters, it shouldn't matter that you have 6 or 7 bowling options. In fact, insaybthe more the merrier to help manage workload as well as having enough variety to work with to help you get 20 wickets.
And so what if only 4 of those 7 actually get a bowl? As long as your getting the 20 wickets, no one cares.
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I never get people who moan about too many bowlers.
As long as your top 7 are all test standard batters, it shouldn't matter that you have 6 or 7 bowling options. In fact, insaybthe more the merrier to help manage workload as well as having enough variety to work with to help you get 20 wickets.
And so what if only 4 of those 7 actually get a bowl? As long as your getting the 20 wickets, no one cares.
I was giving an good alternative. But unlikely to happen until others (such as Pope) get bedded in.
if I were selector my thinking would have been that you can't touch the top 5 batsmen at the moment. Stokes has to come back as it would be crazy not to play him if available.
That leaves 7-11. Can't drop Jimmy, and Stu showed that he seems to be back up to a decent pace and capable of amazing spells. Rashid is the front-line spinner.
That leaves either Woakes, Curran or Buttler to miss out. I would look at current form and Woakes and Curran have both shown that they have form with bat and ball.
I do think Buttler is a fantastic player but his form has dipped down and he hasn't shown any worth in the last two tests. Therefore it should be a no brainer!
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Picking a collection of 'all rounders' isn't a successful methods to create a long term dominate team. This obsession with Curran is ridiculous. He's had a couple of decent games but he's hardly Ian Botham in the making. When we go to Sri Lanka, Curran not a viable option. 80mph dibbly dobbers aren't cutting the mustard. Stokes is first choice as he's a genuine all rounder in all conditions. Woakes and Curran are only options in England. When we go to Sri Lanka we play two spinners so neither Woakes or Curran get a look in.
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Might've been better off having a bat young Joseph...
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I like This dhawan..... quite an agrresive first hour, reminds me of the early test vs aus when he took them on(could have been his first test).
Stokes with exaggerated seam compared to broad and anderson. Braid not doing much so far(albeit harsh judging on one spell).
In my opinion Broad should still be the one to make way.
Buttler, oh buttler. He gets a lot of abuse and calls for his head. Granted he hasnt turned up in this series, but he did play against Pakistan, the last series he played before that(India away) again his figures with the bat were decent to good in comparison to the tie he batsman in that series.
He also was one of a few batsman that tamed the conditions in the wicket feet that was the roses game recently. Root did sod all, so did Williamson, bairstow okay in second innings.
Buttler showed fight and grit in that game.
Also, if buttler has the gloves, no one would be questioning his position.
Same too 7, in the same order, but the gloves being in a different mans hands seem to make a huge difference?
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Woakes!! Hes Bowling well here.
Kohli time
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#WoakesOut
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Bloody Chris Woakes, all he seems to do since returning to the side is take wickets and score big hundreds. Hack.
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When we go to Sri Lanka, Curran not a viable option. 80mph dibbly dobbers aren't cutting the mustard.
The defence would like to call Warnakulasuriya Patabendige Ushantha Joseph Chaminda Vaas to the stand.
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Bloody Chris Woakes, all he seems to do since returning to the side is take wickets and score big hundreds. Hack.
Always bowler friendly conditions when he bowls and batter fields when he bats tbh, most of us could manage it.
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The defence would like to call Warnakulasuriya Patabendige Ushantha Joseph Chaminda Vaas to the stand.
Vaas only became dibbly dobbly at the end of his career, in his younger days he was mid 80s regularly. Something that Curran can't do, coupled with Vaas' vast array of skills
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Kohli to fifty. Having a good series.
Which leads to a question.
So the people that slag woakes off. Only bowls well in England, no point taking him abroad etc etc.
Kohli highest score in England before this series was 38, and he averaged low teens. So by that wisdom, are you guys suggesting you would have left Kohli at home for this series?
He failed in England before, doesnt matter he got runs elsewhere does it??
Or are you happy to admit people can succeed in places they didnt work before given time, experience etc??
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Kohli to fifty. Having a good series.
Which leads to a question.
So the people that slag woakes off. Only bowls well in England, no point taking him abroad etc etc.
Kohli highest score in England before this series was 38, and he averaged low teens. So by that wisdom, are you guys suggesting you would have left Kohli at home for this series?
He failed in England before, doesnt matter he got runs elsewhere does it??
Or are you happy to admit people can succeed in places they didnt work before given time, experience etc??
Youd hope every player was constantly improving so naturally all players can come good. The only debate is around are they looking to improve or are they happy just sticking to what they know and go brand of Cricket Way I play
Either way, woakes deserves his spot and Curran had a good start so didnt deserve to be dropped. Stokes is the saviour but his figures dont stack up for a test top six and out and out bowler so maybe hes not quite a nailed on as people think.
Maybe he needs to go away and show some consistency etc ? Or do we just pander to his random spells or one in ten knocks ?
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Youd hope every player was constantly improving so naturally all players can come good. The only debate is around are they looking to improve or are they happy just sticking to what they know and go brand of Cricket Way I play
Either way, woakes deserves his spot and Curran had a good start so didnt deserve to be dropped. Stokes is the saviour but his figures dont stack up for a test top six and out and out bowler so maybe hes not quite a nailed on as people think.
Maybe he needs to go away and show some consistency etc ? Or do we just pander to his random spells or one in ten knocks ?
I believe woakes is getting better in English conditions every year, so he deserves a shot.
Yes batsman should, if issues are there and unsuccessful look to improve that game.
Jennings looked to change, weather it has worked is yet to be seen(currently Im not sure as this aint a great attack like souths Africas was).
Balance didnt change, and it still looked/seemed unsuccessful for international cricket.
As for stokes, although my post had nothing to do with a stokes selection. Ill say this. We have wondered to broads random spells for the last two years, even though in general hes got slower, swings it less, and his batting has just become a joke.
Be interesting to see how many times broad has put a match winning effort in, in the last few years compared to stokes(who fortunately for him, gets two chases to do that)
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Difference between Kohli and Woakes: Kohli despite awful tour of England in 2014, general consensus one of the greatest batsmen of the modern era and he'd done it everywhere apart from England. Woakes on the other hand feasts at home and goes missing on every overseas tour. Woakes averages over 60 with the ball in overseas matches and hasn't shown any signs of improvement
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Not every overseas tour.
Woakes averages 23 with the ball in Bangladesh.......
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I doff my cap to Woakes' mastery over the all beating Bangladeshi tigers
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Rashid bowling absolute rubbish. Long hops.
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Difference between Kohli and Woakes: Kohli despite awful tour of England in 2014, general consensus one of the greatest batsmen of the modern era and he'd done it everywhere apart from England. Woakes on the other hand feasts at home and goes missing on every overseas tour. Woakes averages over 60 with the ball in overseas matches and hasn't shown any signs of improvement
Exactly how many overseas tours has Woakes been on?
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Rashid gets Kohli!
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Pant of the mark with a six!!
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97! That hurts!
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Deserved that has Jimmy
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Honours about even I'd say. 300/6. We could roll them for 320/330 or Pant/Ashwin could edge them up to 400. Pitch looks dry. Don't want them getting too many.
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As for getting for the mark with a 6, moreso on debut, quite remarkable. That said Pant looked a player whereas karthik looked like a walking wicket
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As for getting for the mark with a 6, moreso on debut, quite remarkable. That said Pant looked a player whereas karthik looked like a walking wicket
Karthik is a very good player of spin, a skillset that has come in handy on this tour so far, oh wait. Seriously though, I think he's a better player than he's shown thus far. Have liked Pant for a while though, they've other great young players too.
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India def in the box seat foe me, 300 after being stuck in in decent
Their bowling is much improved and we have holes in our top order.
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That was poor cricket allround.
Short and wide from broad. Poor non shot from pant and then a big gob full from Broad.
Sure all the youngsters out there will love seeing and then copying that.
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Absolute ripper from Broad
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Balls moving abit this morning. Broad to ashwin and anderson to bumrah werent being played by tail Enders.
Time for England, see how much movement India get
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Proper tailend batting
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Does Cook have any self respect? He's been trash for ages now and shows no signs of getting back to even semi decent level. He should call it quits. Gets dropped by Pujara, promptly edges behind again two balls later
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2 in 2 fornindia. Good start at 54 for none looks poor at 54 for 2.
Come on root and pope!!
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Time for another pair of openers?? Cooks a flat track bully
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Does Cook have any self respect? He's been trash for ages now and shows no signs of getting back to even semi decent level. He should call it quits. Gets dropped by Pujara, promptly edges behind again two balls later
Who are you picking instead? Been a while since any of the other openers tried have made a double ton!
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If you're going to drop Malan for not scoring runs and dropping loads in the slips, then Jennings deserves the exact same treatment
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Who are you picking instead? Been a while since any of the other openers tried have made a double ton!
It's not about scoring a double hundred it's about consistency. Cook's shown many times in the past he can feast against the hapless Windies whom are one of the weakest sides around. Also his double hundred in Melbourne was more due to the pitch not bouncing higher than ankle height and Starc being injured.
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This top order needs nuking
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No doubt England had the best batting conditions and bowling conditions in the first 2 games. The reverse in this game and theyre 6 down
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Spineless
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Seeing YJB getting out of the way he is did, I wonder if how other Eng batsmen wouldve fared against Jimmy Anderson on Lords.
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Woakes' hype just burst what an idiotic shot.
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No doubt England had the best batting conditions and bowling conditions in the first 2 games. The reverse in this game and theyre 6 down
We could have had them here too but for Root's unfathomable decision to have a bowl on a flat, dry wicket on a clear day. He needs to make a meaningful score in the second innings otherwise he will rightfully cop a lot of flak for letting a team that were down and out a week ago back into this series
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I feel at moments like this its only appropriate to pick my own imaginary England team.
Cook
Burns
Bairstow
Root
Pope
Woakes/Stokes
Buttler (wkt)
Woakes
Broad
Leach
Anderson
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It's not about scoring a double hundred it's about consistency. Cook's shown many times in the past he can feast against the hapless Windies whom are one of the weakest sides around. Also his double hundred in Melbourne was more due to the pitch not bouncing higher than ankle height and Starc being injured.
Ok, who are you picking to replace him for consistency?
Looks like he might too score here ;)
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Same old England to be fair.
Yesterdays the commentators constantly said England bowled to short, and kept show stats to prove it.
After game Broad was interviewed and told they bowled to short, he retorted as always with wasnt Doing as much, so we could put it up there, we bowled the right line, we know whats e are doing blah blah blah
India bowl fuller than England, take wickets, the ball moves, England in trouble.
Its like de ja vu
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Broad a waste of time with the bat as always.
Buttler needs to do what hes paid for now. And tee off!
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Ok, who are you picking to replace him for consistency?
Looks like he might too score here ;)
Lyth and Robson.....
Bell and trott.....
Stoneman and carberry.......
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Lyth would be my first choice oprner tbh. Still got no idea why he was jettisoned so quickly. He's a classy player.
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Lyth would be my first choice oprner tbh. Still got no idea why he was jettisoned so quickly. He's a classy player.
Probably his average of 12 in a full series vs Oz.
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Extremely poor start with the ball. 50 up inside 9 overs - yet broad is still on
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Broad is crap and has been for years. Still dining out on his 8 for 15 three years ago.
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Still in general bowling to short.
So many boundarys from the opening two off the back foot.
And when broad did pitch it up, Rahul dispatched it like he was served up a Buffett.
Stokes gets one near the batsman and its a wicket......
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Facks sake cook! Drops a bloody dolly, never mind his batting
Bin saying for years his eyes have gone
Joke at this level
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Facks sake cook! Drops a bloody dolly, never mind his batting
Bin saying for years his eyes have gone
Joke at this level
They seemed alright when he took that worldie in the first dig!
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The bowling looks tired because the bowlers are tired,and the wicket has flattened out a bit
We bowl for a day, bat for half a day, then bowl for another day and plenty.
We seem incapable of batting test match time.
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The bowling looks tired because the bowlers are tired,and the wicket has flattened out a bit
We bowl for a day, bat for half a day, then bowl for another day and plenty.
We seem incapable of batting test match time.
Also shows what a mistake to leave left arm Curran out and Roots decision to bowl first in the conditions not just that 2-0 up in a 5 match series you think about bowling then bat
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Also shows what a mistake to leave left arm Curran out and Roots decision to bowl first in the conditions not just that 2-0 up in a 5 match series you think about bowling then bat
It's hindsight I know and we are hear in our armchairs thinking we know better but it was very hard to leave Curran out. How he might do when I doesn't swing(as I mentioned myself) doesn't really count because he has swung it back in so far in the games..
I think it was a harsh call. Roots comment 'the time to leave him out is when he has played really well' or something like that....I found a very odd statement.
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Lyth would be my first choice oprner tbh. Still got no idea why he was jettisoned so quickly. He's a classy player.
Its difficult this one - Lyth is undoubtedly a class apart from Robson, Stoneman etc, and there is a very good argument that he was not really given much help to make it at the top level. On the other hand, he couldn't really complain at being dropped, and has never really beat the door down for a recall (unless you argue that he should be amongst the potential reserves for the much stronger one day side).
Looking at both arguments - the positives are clear - for three solid years he made runs for fun, and his Headingley ton against New Zealand was an innings that his Yorkshire teammates Root and Bairstow would struggle to match. He wasn't helped by management giving Trott three tests as an opener in the Windies which should have been a low key introduction to test cricket for Peanut, and he could legitimately say that in the live part of that Ashes series, he was always dismissed by a good nut, or in the pursuit of quick runs. You might even throw in the fact that he bowls functional offies, and is at worst third to Stokes and Rikki Clarke in terms of England qualified slippers.
The other side of the argument? Well, yes, he got six good balls - but only one of them was genuinely unplayable. The feeling existed then, as it does now, that he might unfortunately be a player who is good enough to nick good balls, but not genuinely great enough to get them to ground. That, you might let him away with - and rumour was, he was going to be given the winter after the Ashes - but for the fact that he patently cracked in the dead rubber at the Oval.
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They seemed alright when he took that worldie in the first dig!
Hes a professional cricketer whos highly paid job is to score runs and field
Either hes not up to the job, or hes not trying?
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Yey..... Rubbish England are back 😩
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Hes a professional cricketer whos highly paid job is to score runs and field
Either hes not up to the job, or hes not trying?
Possibly gone at the game, but hes always been a streaky player, and as for dropping the odd sitter, hes not alone on that even in the current England slips.
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Same old England, same old excuses for these players.
Im seeing people putting the likes of Stokes, Bairstow as test class batsmen.. when will people accept they arent?. They are capable of some good innings but cant consistently manage when its not a road to pad out their avgs (which arent even in the 40s!)
Lyth has technical issues, the question is has he fixed it ? Hes a serial nicker and from what little Ive seen of him hes not improved as he doesnt need to at county level
The stocks are bare and our system is failing to produce quality red ball players. People can deny it if they want but where the hell are players going to learn from a young age the skills needed to play red ball?!?! Its white ball all the way so why do we expect to suddenly produce red ball players ..
Still, from a money perspective .. keeps the series alive
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Lyth is a good player, pushes at the ball a bit which causes him some strife against top seam or swing bowlers with late sideways movement. I'd give him another chance though, think he's been a little more watchful when I've seen him this year.
Otherwise who would you pick? I'm not sure on Burns, Stoneman looks like the whole experience has damaged him, hopefully he gets his career back on track. There's a big fella at Somerset scored a few today, he looks good.
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If Lyth were to get another crack - and bear in mind here that I am the alleged Yorkshire Mafia - it should be at four or five. He has always been a slightly uncomfortable opener.
And Adie. YJB not test class? Are you feeling okay?
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YJB is, after much effort to get there, a test class keeper/batsman, but nice counterattacking 50s ending in a soft dismissal do not a test no5 make.
Questioning Cook is ridiculous, yes he's on the way downhill but he's at least got two big innings in the past year (which is more than anyone else in this side...). If/when we find an opener for the other end who scores enough runs to stay in the side, Cook will be under pressure. Until then, he's always the safer of the two openers and I don't see England dropping both openers at once!
Whisper it quietly, Pope at 4 is a pretty poor selection... Serious lack of balance in the team at the moment, past the openers every batsman we have is an attacking player, ridiculous state of affairs for a test side.
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If Lyth were to get another crack - and bear in mind here that I am the alleged Yorkshire Mafia - it should be at four or five. He has always been a slightly uncomfortable opener.
And Adie. YJB not test class? Are you feeling okay?
His avg simply isnt test class.. mid to late 30s is it?? Hes had a lot of games now too. Hes fine at 6/7 but people keep saying move to 1/2/3/4 and thats just bizarre. Hes shown he isnt consistent which is the key thing youre wanting from your top 4 in test cricket. Playing random flashy innings is for your 5/6/7.
England have no one in reserve so either way, its just re-arranging the deck chairs so meh.
Just amusing how the team are rubbish but he same players get defended as they fail time after time
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Questioning Cook is ridiculous, yes he's on the way downhill but he's at least got two big innings in the past year (which is more than anyone else in this side...). If/when we find an opener for the other end who scores enough runs to stay in the side, Cook will be under pressure. Until then, he's always the safer of the two openers and I don't see England dropping both openers at once!
Those 2 knocks on absolute roads! One of those knocks against West Indies - didnt realise how important runs against the windiest are. Hes become a flat track bully
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Those 2 knocks on absolute roads! One of those knocks against West Indies - didnt realise how important runs against the windiest are. Hes become a flat track bully
Anyone else opening the batting manage any big knocks on those roads against diddies?
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YJB is, after much effort to get there, a test class keeper/batsman, but nice counterattacking 50s ending in a soft dismissal do not a test no5 make.
Questioning Cook is ridiculous, yes he's on the way downhill but he's at least got two big innings in the past year (which is more than anyone else in this side...). If/when we find an opener for the other end who scores enough runs to stay in the side, Cook will be under pressure. Until then, he's always the safer of the two openers and I don't see England dropping both openers at once!
Whisper it quietly, Pope at 4 is a pretty poor selection... Serious lack of balance in the team at the moment, past the openers every batsman we have is an attacking player, ridiculous state of affairs for a test side.
Surely questioning someones under performing is the only way to progress?
If hes paid as a batsman to score runs and he doesnt, what do you do?
If hes paid to catch the ball and chase after the odd one, and he doesnt, what do you do?
Oh yeah hes scored shedloads of runs, and might do again,,,,,okaaay
Ive got a genuine question,,,,all the money spent on player pathways etc, wheres all the batters?
We know, no one from a state school is gonna play, but all those 20k a term private schools must be churning a few candidates out?
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Are we going to drop both openers? No of course not, so Cook's place isn't under pressure even though he isn't performing consistently at the moment. We need to find another opener, Jennings nicking one trying to leave isn't a good look unfortunately. Another slipper would be good to, let's be honest Cook's only ever ended up there because he was captain - he's always been prone to shelling a few dollies.
Batsmen are coming through I think, Clarke/Livingstone probably leading the pack, obviously Pope has got himself in the side. Trouble is there aren't any openers! Easy to see why they haven't picked Burns yet but you suspect he'll get a go by the end of the summer. I see Will Rhodes is in form, but that's probably a stretch...
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Good article by George Dobell on cricinfo regarding Alastair Cook. Cook's last hundreds have been on slow/low/turgid surfaces. Cook's last 5 hundreds on a pitch helpful for seam bowlers was way back in Bridgetown 2015. If there's no threat to Cook's outside edge, he still capable of filling his boots on flat pancakes. Otherwise he's pretty much a walking wicket
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malan and vince may have been jettinsoned a bit too soon, malan especially with a flea in his ear from the selection supremo- harsh if you ask me
Vince nearly was there but came up short as have dozens of others, I agree a bit with @edge , Pope ideally would bat 5 or 6 where he bats for his county,he may be good enough but he has to settle in otherwise he is just another casualty on the list
personally I would bring back Ian Bell, yes I know its short term, but he is genuine top 3 and that's where our problem is.
we don't always have to look 5 years ahead all the time, 1-2 years is ok
the goal is to win matches, with sri lanka and windies in the winter a proved player of spin may be the best option.
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Good article by George Dobell on cricinfo regarding Alastair Cook. Cook's last hundreds have been on slow/low/turgid surfaces. Cook's last 5 hundreds on a pitch helpful for seam bowlers was way back in Bridgetown 2015. If there's no threat to Cook's outside edge, he still capable of filling his boots on flat pancakes. Otherwise he's pretty much a walking wicket
Cant argue with the facts, but hes still the more reliable half of our opening partnership. Sure he has still averaged more than the blokes at the other end in that period.
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Is Bell really actually any good against genuine spin? More often then not when we toured Asian conditions Bell was clueless. In fact Bell's only really capable against 'spin' when it's not turning
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Those 2 knocks on absolute roads! One of those knocks against West Indies - didnt realise how important runs against the windiest are. Hes become a flat track bully
England can't find one opener never mind trying trying to find two
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Unfortunately I think that's not too far from the truth, Bell played spin beautifully... outside of Asia. He also wasn't all that good at 3 so wouldn't fill that hole either. Old fashioned limpet needed for the top order. Any good Saffers with the right grandparents? :D
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Is there no one out there with a good eye, that can be shoehorned into an opening spot?
I mean coached to open
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Is there no one out there with a good eye, that can be shoehorned into an opening spot?
I mean coached to open
If I was a young hopeful I'd be leaning on my county coach to open!
One name that would fit the bill - James Bracey, bats no3 but also opens, specialises in long watchful digs. Downsides are inexperience and can't see anyone getting picked for England from playing for Gloucestershire.
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Only just watched the highlights from yesterday. To be fair India bowled full, bowled good lines and the ball swung. Plus had their fair share of luck.
Lots of people caught at the wicket.
Love that people are writing Pope off after 2 digs, one of which ended with a legside strangle ???
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Bairstow looks to have a nasty injury
if he is was to miss the next match would Butler keep and then we would have to call up another batsman?
but who?
:)
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14 dropped catches is inexcusable
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Bairstow looks to have a nasty injury
if he is was to miss the next match would Butler keep and then we would have to call up another batsman?
but who?
:)
Good time for someone in the counties to hit some runs! Joe Clarke most likely, or can Hildreth finally time it right?
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hildreth has got to be the one with a case after a very consistent career, but never really got the chance a couple of year back.
not wanting to sound like a broken record ian bell should be called in
if you want a younger player, yes Joe Clarke has been around the team, bats 3 I believe and highly rated....
butler is keeping for us now and prob for the rest of the innings
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Only just watched the highlights from yesterday. To be fair India bowled full, bowled good lines and the ball swung. Plus had their fair share of luck.
Lots of people caught at the wicket.
Love that people are writing Pope off after 2 digs, one of which ended with a legside strangle ???
Fair share of luck?? It was good bowling and poor batting from the England batsmen in their 'home conditions'...not so great when the ball is moving around a little bit.
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Bairstow has small fracture to middle finger on left t hand but can still bat.
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Fair share of luck?? It was good bowling and poor batting from the England batsmen in their 'home conditions'...not so great when the ball is moving around a little bit.
Probably alluding to that catch Rahul took that bounced about 3 inches short!
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Probably alluding to that catch Rahul took that bounced about 3 inches short!
So you are suggesting that you could see the gap that neither the 3rd umpire nor the multiple replays could disapprove of ?
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I thought it was out.
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clearly out for me too.
Root's dismissal should not detract from the fact India are dominating this match. we are getting thrashed here and credit to them for turning it round after Lords.
indian batsman are teaching us how to bat in a test match.
read an interesting stat on BBC,every batsman who has debuted after Bell has averaged below 30, he averaged 42.
but if the answer is not going back to an old player we simply have to get another top 3 batter in who can at least bat time. don't care what else the do just bat time,its a five day match.
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Kohli cant bat in English conditions or play the moving ball. Amazing the judgement after one tour.
Another 100 up - Im sure hell buy Jennings a drink for that drop
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our catching is abysmal
its village !!!!1
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Woakes gets Kohli again!!
2 quick wickets. We on top.......
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450 is very gettable on this pitch...
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Kohli's 23rd hundred in 118 innings. Smith 23 hundreds in 117 innings. These two are setting the gold standard. And Kohli rather foolishly left one out there in the first innings
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450 is very gettable on this pitch...
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Sorry
Ahahahahahahahahahaha
A+ banter
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Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Sorry
Ahahahahahahahahahaha
A+ banter
:)
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450 is very gettable on this pitch...
....but not by England?
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450 is very gettable on this pitch...
Good job they're going to be about 550 ahead lol
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India is just rubbing it in now...Hardik Pandya gets a 50 against the deadly and unplayable England attack!
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Right then, lets see how cook does,,no pressure
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Jennings was lucky not to be wearing that catch on his plums to be honest.
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Ali and Vince have first class tons today............
Also India pitching it up and looking more dangerous. Ill keep banging that drum.
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Kohli cant bat in English conditions or play the moving ball. Amazing the judgement after one tour.
Another 100 up - Im sure hell buy Jennings a drink for that drop
I agree with your statement on kohli just after one tour.
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By the sounds of things I am very glad I am on holiday with no access to tv!!
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Looking foreward to watching England bat for 2 days.
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Looking foreward to watching England bat for 2 days.
you're planning on watching it on repeat? :)
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Looking foreward to watching England bat for 2 days.
Good one
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I'm not expecting England to last the day, and frankly we deserve it.
We're doomed Captain Mainwaring, doomed!!
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How about this for a team for the next test (bearing in mind they are not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater? -
Cook
Jennings
Root
Clark
Pope
Foakes+
Woakes
Curran
Rashid
Broad
Anderson
Personally, if I could find a decent right-handed opener, I would go with the following -
Cook
A Right Handed Opener
Jennings
Root
Pope
Foakes+
Woakes
Curran
Leach
Broad
Anderson
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we are, and India have outplayed us on every day
if bairstow is out of the next match and Butler keeps, which he surely must, who comes in?
clarke
foakes
vince
malan?
burns?
do we go back to playing 3 openers in and move everyone down a place, that puts Root back at 4
and maybe Burns of Surrey as a genuine opener is the answer
personally, presuming Bairstow is out I would recall Bell and bat him 3 for the remainder of the series, then look at the openers after the fifth test.
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I'd be very surprised if they dropped Stokes or Buttler, never mind both of them, if YJB can't play Buttler will get the gloves and a batsman (probably Moeen) will come in to bat 4 or 5
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Oh goody - another underperforming left-handed batsman will help!
and I actually forgot about stokes in my lineup :o
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Jennings has to go, surely. He's looked completely out of his depth. Awful technique. Can't play pace, can't play spin, can't catch.
Cook has been a walking wicket on anything but the slowest, flattest decks for about 4 years now, but they're not going to drop him until they find a replacement for Jennings. Probably his best hope of a continued test career is for his partners to keep failing!
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Woakes looked shattered yesterday pace down to under 80mph far to easy for batters.
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If Ed Smith picks have any pattern so far, it's picking on form. Plenty to bat for today in the CC for Clarke/Moeen/Hildreth etc. Not to mention Keaton Jennings of course!
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If Ed Smith picks have any pattern so far, it's picking on form. Plenty to bat for today in the CC for Clarke/Moeen/Hildreth etc. Not to mention Keaton Jennings of course!
Yup, very timely ton by Mo
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If Ed Smith picks have any pattern so far, it's picking on form. Plenty to bat for today in the CC for Clarke/Moeen/Hildreth etc. Not to mention Keaton Jennings of course!
If he's picking on 'form' then Burns should have been in the side from the off. Period.
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Unless Ashwin makes some sort of amazing recovery another left hander wouldn't be a problem, as they'll probably pick Jadeja as Kuldeep isn't good enough of Tests. Whether that's Burns or Moeen. But if Ashwin is fit for Southampton a right hander would be beneficial perhaps Bell.
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Goodbye Jennings, just not good enough
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Jennings is truly awful
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Indeed, lets worry about finding Cook a partner before we worry about replacing him.
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Burns next up then.
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This team is genuinely pathetic
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Cook rumoured to miss the fourth Test as his wife is due to give birth. Jennings might have to be retained
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Cook rumoured to miss the fourth Test as his wife is due to give birth. Jennings might have to be retained
Sack Smith if he does that
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Ishant getting cook out for fun. Flat track bullys done
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Cook for me had to play at his, Jennings squared up to back of a length again so back to where we were vs South Africa
I personally like Jennings at least hes tried to improve where others havent just dont think hes up to it at the moment
Root looks all over the ship at the mo! Playing at everything!!!
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Sack Smith if he does that
Bring back Geoffrey!
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Never really rated Ishant, thought he was overhyped due to making a clown of Ponting back in 2008, but he's clearly improved and may yet end up with 400 test wickets
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Seems like a lack of situational awareness, yes it's the general aim to score runs - but in this match, in this moment, the aim has to be to survive - ergo play at nothing you needn't play at. Everything with soft hands, and just swallow up the pressure. Jennings fencing at a ball that was never going to hit his stumps on height looks terrible. Do rate him as a player though, think in the CC he's a top player, and understandably worth a crack in the Test side, but thus far he still has some work to do - still young though, could get there eventually.
Not sure whom else they could pick as an opener. Burns is the obvious one I guess, must've earned a shot by now. Mitchell at Worcestershire is in good nick, as is Clarke. Would love to see them pick Hildreth and Mitchell, give some experienced players a crack at stepping up, rather than pinning hopes on the emergence of a 20 yo superstar every few weeks. Certainly worked for Voges and Rogers.
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62-3 Root gone.
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Why is this team so spineless?
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Sack the lot of them, brainless from Root and Pope. Fair play to India for bowling really well
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62-4 pope gone. Awful shot
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Roots defiantly not being the batsman he was/can be in This series?
Is it the captaincy as hes still one of the best Odi batsman? Or is it the odis thats ruining him as test??
Also whys pope chased that??
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Pope not technically good enough to bat at 4, if he's playing he's gotta down at 6
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Two more (3/4) of them out playing at balls they needn't have. The abject failures are all encompassing it seems. Feel it would be a little early to judge Jennings? Or let him regroup in the Championship and come back stronger?
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Roots defiantly not being the batsman he was/can be in This series?
Is it the captaincy as hes still one of the best Odi batsman? Or is it the odis thats ruining him as test??
Also what pipe chased that??
Root's more loose since we became obsessed with ODI cricket
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We're a good one day side aren't we? we certainly like going for our shots.
This elevation to amazing status in limited overs cricket seems to have brought about the demise of out test batting.
If this is Bayliss's influence, perhaps we ought to have 2 x vastly different XIs or two different coaches.
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You'd like to think the core would be the same, but that there would be one or two Test specialists, like Anderson and Cook.
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Roots defiantly not being the batsman he was/can be in This series?
Is it the captaincy as hes still one of the best Odi batsman? Or is it the odis thats ruining him as test??
Also whys pope chased that??
he hasn't been for a while
its takes big kahunas to relive Root of the captaincy, and that's exactly what we should do
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We're a good one day side aren't we? we certainly like going for our shots.
This elevation to amazing status in limited overs cricket seems to have brought about the demise of out test batting.
If this is Bayliss's influence, perhaps we ought to have 2 x vastly different XIs or two different coaches.
yes they could put Farbrace in charge full time of the test side, Bayliff ends next year anyway
and make Thorpe batting coach. Someone with a proven test batting record and the mental toughness to score test hundreds.
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yes they could put Farbrace in charge full time of the test side, Bayliff ends next year anyway
and make Thorpe batting coach. Someone with a proven test batting record and the mental toughness to score test hundreds.
yeah, Thorpe to me has always seemed to be in the wrong job. He should be working with our test team on how to prepare instead of Ramprakash. His current role in defining what batting techniques should be taught by coaches doesn't really seem appropriate for an ex-player. Its a position where we really need an accomplished biomechanics expert and student of the game.
My experience of the coaching materials that have been produced by the ECB under Thorpe are that they are completely useless. Which is strange, because when you listen to him speak on youtube he does mostly seem to know what he's talking about - at least about strategy - I don't think his biomechanics is up to much.
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Why is this team so spineless?
Our batsmen are either completely past it (Cook), or are white ball cricketers being asked to turn their hand to test cricket. They've come up through the ranks working on their boundary catching, paddle sweeps and power hitting. Expecting them to be able to take slip catches and negotiate difficult periods of play against the moving ball is simply outside of their skillset and its unfair to expect anything more than we're getting.
Anyone surprised when England repeatedly collapse clearly hasn't been paying attention for the past few years. The ECB have openly and explicitly switched focus to white ball cricket and asked the players and coaches to focus 100% on those skills as test cricket is being slowly wound-down and performances are now considered irrelevant. Its only the fans who cares and the fans are irrelevant to ECB's plans.
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Yup, very timely ton by Mo
Make that a double. Moeen just dismissed for 219. I believe he scored a T20 ton a few days ago so he's in good form, as well as being popular in the dressing room.
Got to have a great chance of making it into the team for the 4th test if Bairstow can't go?
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Make that a double. Moeen just dismissed for 219. I believe he scored a T20 ton a few days ago so he's in good form, as well as being popular in the dressing room.
Got to have a great chance of making it into the team for the 4th test if Bairstow can't go?
yes for sure. but it doesn't actually solve the problem we have. im sure as others have said he is favourite to be picked.
What the selectors will do because we have loads of middle order players is keep picking them
instead of saying, hang on, we have a whole team full anyway, lets look at another area.
Root is already 3, he wont go up an further.no one else if the current team could open the batting
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I'd keep Jennings for the series and let Mo come in for Bairstow if required. If Cook is absent for the fourth test, I would call up Burns or Mitchell or Clarke.
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Buttler showing why he has no technique for test match cricket. Edges galore, and dropped on early on - just like the first innings
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Buttler showing why he has no technique for test match cricket. Edges galore, and dropped on early on - just like the first innings
he is showing why technique is secondary to everything. him and stokes are at least batting it out and hanging in there.
its the midset that matters
greame smith had a shocking technique...batted for hours.
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Buttler showing why he has no technique for test match cricket. Edges galore, and dropped on early on - just like the first innings
He's not the only one who's struggling, its mostly off Bumrah's bowling with his action and angle on the crease, Root struggled too.
Main thing is is that he's still there!
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On another note, I bet GM are happy now Stokes is clear of his Court case...I wonder if they did sign him up for a bargain?
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I mean, we're going to lose, but it's nice to see a fight of some kind
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greame smith had a shocking technique...batted for hours.
Graeme Smith (like Buttler) had fantastic hand-eye coordination. Slightly ropey technique but like you say, knew where his off stump was and left everything he didn't need to play and brought the bat down straight against the new ball - most useful in England.
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How did Cook do??
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Buttler and Stokes showing some fight
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100 run partnership? By England? What?!
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yes for sure. but it doesn't actually solve the problem we have. im sure as others have said he is favourite to be picked.
What the selectors will do because we have loads of middle order players is keep picking them
instead of saying, hang on, we have a whole team full anyway, lets look at another area.
Root is already 3, he wont go up an further.no one else if the current team could open the batting
Root should be moving down, not up. Same for Pope. Moeen bats three for Worcestershire (Opens in white ball cricket) and let's be honest, he can't be worse than most England #3 batsmen since Trott left international cricket.
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Well!
A wicket less session, England batting! With our 2 whiteball players who dont have the technique for test cricket at the crease!!
What on earth is this?
Some check the betting spreads? spot fixing? What what!
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Look what happens when you bat like its a test
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Look what happens when you bat like it’s a test
absolutely. It don't matter what form of the game you are better at, or your technique, get in and leave the ball properly,score when you can and defend the rest. :)
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Lets be honest butlers knock was extremely lucky, full of plays and misses and edges. I suppose that wont get mentioned, also the fact he was dropped on 1
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Lets be honest butlers knock was extremely lucky, full of plays and misses and edges. I suppose that wont get mentioned, also the fact he was dropped on 1
So he gutsed it out and cashed in on the 2nd life he was given.
Isn't that cricket down to a tee?
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Lets be honest butlers knock was extremely lucky, full of plays and misses and edges. I suppose that wont get mentioned, also the fact he was dropped on 1
cant see how that matters. Butler is a one day specialist, he is now batting in 'test mode' , him and Stokes are going against their natural instincts for the team
what I don't understand is if they can do it why cant the others? yes he's been dropped but everyone needs luck right...
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Lets be honest butlers knock was extremely lucky, full of plays and misses and edges. I suppose that wont get mentioned, also the fact he was dropped on 1
So no one ever in the history of test cricket has had a good score after a drop? Or a fight through the beginning of there innings?
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150 partnership for Buttler and Stokes
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Yeah so this buttler lad is crap!!!!!!
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100 for Buttler
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Well batted
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Well batted jos!
Deserved. Got his head down after an early chance.
Id need a few few hundred chances to get 100 Runs in a test match.....
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well batted !!!
a bit of head down application
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Well played Jos
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Root should be moving down, not up. Same for Pope. Moeen bats three for Worcestershire (Opens in white ball cricket) and let's be honest, he can't be worse than most England #3 batsmen since Trott left international cricket.
Moeen is no number 3 for England struggles at test level struggles to play the new ball and the short pitched stuff
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Keeps playing and missing or outside edging it, only got to a big score after being dropped in this series, technique better for limited overs... Virat Kohli's crap isn't he!
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he is showing why technique is secondary to everything. him and stokes are at least batting it out and hanging in there.
its the midset that matters
greame smith had a shocking technique...batted for hours.
This.. mindset really is the key thing.l technique second.. all this does though is raise the question on why they arent going out with this more defensive mindset every game..... why do they persist with white ball mentality
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Lets be honest butlers knock was extremely lucky, full of plays and misses and edges. I suppose that wont get mentioned, also the fact he was dropped on 1
So was kohlis and yet his confirms his class?!?!
Hey, Im no fan of buttler but hes actually batted well and shown he can bat in a test match style.. the question now isnt that anyone was proved right or wrong but can he back it up game after game without going back to white ball mentality
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Yeah so this buttler lad is crap!!!!!!
Here we go.. the see he is good enough camp will be out.. lets see if he can back it up consistently shall we before declaring another messiah
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Delighted Buttler's made a ton, especially in the top 6 playing a proper knock rather than slogging stuck with the tail. He's now averaging just under 55 since being recalled! Absolutely right mental strength is key in tests, and Buttler has plenty of bottle. Fingers crossed this marks the start of him as a force in tests.
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Root should be moving down, not up. Same for Pope. Moeen bats three for Worcestershire (Opens in white ball cricket) and let's be honest, he can't be worse than most England #3 batsmen since Trott left international cricket.
Moeeen at 3... lol
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If Baistow is rules out of the rest of the series, Bell is the perfect man to come in and bat 3 to allow the rest of the middle order to move down one place to where they look more comfortable
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Moeeen at 3... lol
Yes, the bloke who's just made a double hundred batting at 3 in the Championship. What a ridiculous idea that he could bat at 3 in a Test match too...
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Here we go.. the see he is good enough camp will be out.. lets see if he can back it up consistently shall we before declaring another messiah
Ive saod since he was recalled that hes good enough and I hope he proves it... hes had a decent summer and Id say has been one of Englands better batsmen this summer so hardly a shock that Im saying it now
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Gutted.
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Terrible leave
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Root, buttler early on, bairstow there. And even Pant! Have struggled to pick bumrahs line up with him coming so wide.
Atleast bairstow didnt hurt his finger.
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Same old then
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Woakes hits hat trick ball for 4
How dare he!
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Woakes hits hat trick ball for 4
How dare he!
GOAT
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Moeeen at 3... lol
Vince got what, a dozen test matches just because someone tricked the selectors with a youtube compilation of his cover drives?
Moeen can get a couple of games at 3 or 4.
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Bumrah bowling well here
Not sure woakes could have done much there!
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Yes, the bloke who's just made a double hundred batting at 3 in the Championship. What a ridiculous idea that he could bat at 3 in a Test match too...
You realise he avgs like 35 and has had a fair few chances already and has shown he isnt a top order bat. Batting high in the cc is very different as weve seen.. much much easier
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You realise he avgs like 35 and has had a fair few chances already and has shown he isnt a top order bat. Batting high in the cc is very different as weve seen.. much much easier
7 Innings in the top 3 is not a fair few chances.
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Bumrah bowling well here
Not sure woakes could have done much there!
Woakes shows in this match he can't play the short stuff
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Woakes shows in this match he can't play the short stuff
Theres not many batters who could play that one!!
Where was bumrah at the start of the series?
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Theres not many batters who could play that one!!
Where was bumrah at the start of the series?
Broke his non bowling hand against Ireland in a T20, had surgery according to cricinfo
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Woakes shows in this match he can't play the short stuff
Better than the top order who seem determined to show they can't play.
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Bumrah and no balls...India normally lose. Come on chaps we got this
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Theres not many batters who could play that one!!
Where was bumrah at the start of the series?
BUMRAH was recovering from an injury and was not fit
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Moeen can't bat 3 in Test matches. He's scared of fast bowling and the Indians are a damn sight faster than anything he'd have faced against Yorkshire
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Theres not many batters who could play that one!!
Where was bumrah at the start of the series?
Not just that one first innings as well India have worked him out
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That dropped catch could be costly...
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Bumrah gets his Michelle and Rahul has seven catches in the match. What's the record for a non keeper?
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300 up!!!!
Imagine if our top order had some fight.
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Bumrah gets his Michelle and Rahul has seven catches in the match. What's the record for a non keeper?
Rahane had eight in this game
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/11331/scorecard/895773/sri-lanka-vs-india-1st-test-india-tour-of-sri-lanka-2015 (http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/11331/scorecard/895773/sri-lanka-vs-india-1st-test-india-tour-of-sri-lanka-2015)
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Eng really needs a new captain. Root doesn't cut it. You can't just sulk and scowl and given polished press conferences when under the pump. Perhaps one of Butler, Stokes, Bairstow? Let Root just bat.
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5day test!! And weve been awful.
India didnt even last two days in the last one......... We are bad, but maybe not as bad as we think.
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Also broad fine for being a s##t bloke
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5day test!! And weve been awful.
India didnt even last two days in the last one......... We are bad, but maybe not as bad as we think.
Yes good point . We did however have massive advantage in conditions at Lords. India have come back brilliantly.
It's the manner in which we collapse I get annoyed about. I don't believe this can't bat for a day stuff always said.
3 months ago no one would of predicted butler would play let alone change his game for a hundred. If he can do it, they all can
:)
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Yes good point . We did however have massive advantage in conditions at Lords. India have come back brilliantly.
It's the manner in which we collapse I get annoyed about. I don't believe this can't bat for a day stuff always said.
3 months ago no one would of predicted butler would play let alone change his game for a hundred. If he can do it, they all can
:)
Surely thats what test cricket is about? Over 5 days, conditions will change and Mastering the conditions, and using them to your advantage?
I cant rmember who now, but didnt a teams declare there first innings, while behind so they could have a new swinging pink ball under lights?
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Yes exactly, but this is England and its swing around d all match.the fact is India have bowled and batted better in our conditions, so credit to them.
I think teams may well of declared behind in some games for red ball not just pink ball cricket. They may of thought then they have a long tail so not many more runs would come, and it's best to bowl so certainly county games that would of happened.
Today thou most players can hold a bat plus there's loads of protection available. If it's dark and overcast you may not of wanted your tailenders to face sylvester Clarke with a set of green pimple gloves and a school ruler for a bat.
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Pitch looks like a pile of sand. What happened to greentop English conditions?
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Surely thats what test cricket is about? Over 5 days, conditions will change and Mastering the conditions, and using them to your advantage?
I cant rmember who now, but didnt a teams declare there first innings, while behind so they could have a new swinging pink ball under lights?
@smilley792 I think it was Faf vs Aus.
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It's the application that gets me - I know that batsmen's strike rate has massively increased over the last few years, but there has to be some sort of tactical or match awareness within some of them players. I reckon at least 4 of them were out playing at balls they could have easily left.
Like I said earlier, I'm a Jennings fan, but to fence at a chest high ball at that point of the innings is ludicrous - no need to score runs or try and force it. The Root one as well, as Captain, is indefensible.
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It's the application that gets me - I know that batsmen's strike rate has massively increased over the last few years, but there has to be some sort of tactical or match awareness within some of them players. I reckon at least 4 of them were out playing at balls they could have easily left.
Like I said earlier, I'm a Jennings fan, but to fence at a chest high ball at that point of the innings is ludicrous - no need to score runs or try and force it. The Root one as well, as Captain, is indefensible.
Positive brand of Cricket
Counter attack
Put the pressure on the bowler
Not indefensible in the modern mind sadly
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I think I speak for everyone here when I say it is obvious that the blame for this defeat falls squarely at the feet of Christopher Roger Woakes.
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All over inside 17 balls the limping Ashwin got Anderson with a leg spinner. Kohli made 200 and we lost by 203 runs...
If the pitch at Southampton is flat then India's seamers look more capable of getting wickets. They bowl considerably quicker than England, and whom would ever that thought could ever happen
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What an embarrassing and heavy defeat. England have now lost 2 test matches this summer against subcontinent teams.
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All over inside 17 balls the limping Ashwin got Anderson with a leg spinner. Kohli made 200 and we lost by 203 runs...
If the pitch at Southampton is flat then India's seamers look more capable of getting wickets. They bowl considerably quicker than England, and whom would ever that thought could ever happen
bit surprised at the pace of Bumhra...he's pretty quick and bowled really well on that track
it could spin at the rose bowl which puts us on the back foot I would suggest if it does.
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Question, why would Kohli, as captain and MotM, turn down a request to be interviewed by TMS?
He's probably the best batsman in the world and is having a superb series, they've just won a game, kept thenseries alive and battered the home team. Don't get why, when you're on the field doing media duties, you turn down an interview with the foremost radio broadcaster?
Agnew having to deal with a minder and Kohli has literally just ignored him amd walked off. That's really sad.
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Cannot wait to hear the bland platitudes / excuses / rationales put forward by the robotic England players and coaching team.
I'm hoping it's something along the lines of 'simply not good enough', 'need to look at our techniques' and an honest appraisal of how poor we were.
Can't believe how many doubts there are over a single line up:
Cook - don't think he;s currently test standard
Jennings - technical issues everywhere
Root - not a natural captain, not enjoying no3, prone to many batting brainfarts
Pope - been thrown to the Lions somewhat, looks better suited to middle order dashing
Rashid - Not going to offer a captain any control as a sole spinner, don;t think he gives the Indians any sleepless nights
Broad - Apart from the (very) occasional 'wunderspell' seems to be in denial about not being able to pitch it up enough
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Cannot wait to hear the bland platitudes / excuses / rationales put forward by the robotic England players and coaching team.
I'm hoping it's something along the lines of 'simply not good enough', 'need to look at our techniques' and an honest appraisal of how poor we were.
Can't believe how many doubts there are over a single line up:
Cook - don't think he;s currently test standard
Jennings - technical issues everywhere
Root - not a natural captain, not enjoying no3, prone to many batting brainfarts
Pope - been thrown to the Lions somewhat, looks better suited to middle order dashing
Rashid - Not going to offer a captain any control as a sole spinner, don;t think he gives the Indians any sleepless nights
Broad - Apart from the (very) occasional 'wunderspell' seems to be in denial about not being able to pitch it up enough
get it off your chest cattus we are all feeling similar
well said that man!
number 1, absolutey number 1 and it wont happen is Root is not a Captain, he cant cope with it and its affecting his batting. He is not the first and wont be the last to have this problem.
Free him up to concentrate on being the best batsman he can be.
Smith has made some good calls so far he needs to show real balls now
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Pretty much spot on re responses to Qs from Root and Bayliss...
I think Cook is knackered, mentally amd physically. I think if we had another established opener they'd give him time off. I'd be surprised if he didn't opt out of winter touring this year.
I'd be reluctant to discard him if he did. I think if he had a winter break it would lengthen his career
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If Cook is dropped/rested whatever they like to call it, it effectively ends his career. Next summer is the Ashes and he is Starc's bunny. So resting won't somehow make him score runs again
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Has anyone noticed how rather than actively looking to hit the ball, Jennings simply holds his bat roughly where he thinks the ball is going, and then just stands still and waits to see if the ball hits it? Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.
Forget footwork, balance, alignment, interception points, any of that. This has got to be the worst defensive technique I have ever seen from a professional player.
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yeah I don't think we can jettison Cook although he is on the way down it seems. have to say he has had some good balls so far that have got him out so let not be too harsh, could anyone else of played them better?
you want England to bring on young players, with Curran and Pope they have done, its massively unfair to bat Pope out of position thou.someone else should move up.
perhaps a more experienced batter wold be an idea for the next year or so, I can think of
bell
hildreth
Mitchell
vince
malan
robson
vince and malan have had chances obviously, they didn't quite do enough. is it worth a third try with either of these two players?
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Has anyone noticed how rather than actively looking to hit the ball, Jennings simply holds his bat roughly where he thinks the ball is going, and then just stands still and waits to see if the ball hits it? Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.
Forget footwork, balance, alignment, interception points, any of that. This has got to be the worst defensive technique I have ever seen from a professional player.
yes.. it looks like his weight is not going into the ball, his stance is similar to Trescothick, but with minimal foot movement he was back or forward and not away from the ball.
it seems a basic fault which was the same the first time he played
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Cannot wait to hear the bland platitudes / excuses / rationales put forward by the robotic England players and coaching team.
I'm hoping it's something along the lines of 'simply not good enough', 'need to look at our techniques' and an honest appraisal of how poor we were.
Can't believe how many doubts there are over a single line up:
Cook - don't think he;s currently test standard
Jennings - technical issues everywhere
Root - not a natural captain, not enjoying no3, prone to many batting brainfarts
Pope - been thrown to the Lions somewhat, looks better suited to middle order dashing
Rashid - Not going to offer a captain any control as a sole spinner, don;t think he gives the Indians any sleepless nights
Broad - Apart from the (very) occasional 'wunderspell' seems to be in denial about not being able to pitch it up enough
Don't forget:
Buttler: nice lad, but what is his role? We already have a surfeit of counter-attacking lower middle order batsmen
Woakes: pace drops dramatically from one spell to the next, ineffective anywhere but in English conditions.
Stokes: only seems capable/interested in bowling endless bouncers, not a top 6 test batsman, and a man of his temper and violent tendencies must be a very negative and disruptive presence in the dressing room. No longer wants to field at slip.
England lineup:
1: vacant
2: vacant
3: vacant
4: vacant
5: Root
6: Bairstow (currently injured)
7: vacant
8: vacant
9: vacant
10: vacant
11: Anderson (close to retirement)
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yes.. it looks like his weight is not going into the ball, his stance is similar to Trescothick, but with minimal foot movement he was back or forward and not away from the ball.
it seems a basic fault which was the same the first time he played
Indeed. He looked crap against South Africa last year, and absolutely nothing has changed. Someone needs to tell him that even when playing defensively with soft hands, you still need to move the bat to intercept the ball, rather than just dangle it next to you like a plumb line. He gives the impression he is batting with his eyes shut.
Of course none of the geniuses in the sky commentary box (number of coaching qualification between them =0) have apparently noticed this.
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yes.. it looks like his weight is not going into the ball, his stance is similar to Trescothick, but with minimal foot movement he was back or forward and not away from the ball.
it seems a basic fault which was the same the first time he played
To be fair to him though, when he hits the ball he's hitting it hard enough. At Test quick pace all you've got to do is caress the ball in the right direction, don't really need to hit it hard - in fact I'd argue you're better off playing with a straight bat and in good shape rather than trying to hit it at all - especially given they were trying to block out two days to save a Test. The playing of the ball away from his body, i.e. getting his head over the ball, and judging of length seems to be his big issue.
One thing I noticed watching him bat yesterday, is related to power I suppose (as I think staying side on to the ball allows you to generate natural power with timing), it seems he gets squared up a lot and is turning his hips and left shoulder towards the ball.
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Right, I know I'm going to get shouted down, but i don;t care. I wonder if we are getting into a similar situation that required a Brearley recall all those years ago?
An honest county captain, with decent tactical skills and good, strong man-management, maybe perhaps a little below test standard but a real trier.
He slots into the side at 4 together with whoever is the most in-form right-handed opening batsman of the moment coming in for Jennings.
Pope to 5 for the rest of the series
YJB at 6 (if fit) and Stokes at 7 - both are told that is where they are batting and that is their job for the England team, no player gets to dictate his batting position
Curran is brought back in, as one for the future and a bringer of variety (plus he tries to pitch the f*cking thing up!)
Dependant on the pitch, make a decision between Woakes / Broad / a bouncy bugger like Overton
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Dropping Buttler Brucey? Bold move!
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If Cook is dropped/rested whatever they like to call it, it effectively ends his career. Next summer is the Ashes and he is Starc's bunny. So resting won't somehow make him score runs again
Resting him may be the refreshment he needs. He's not scoring runs now and he's about to be a dad again. Give him the winter off, tell him he may not get back in, as has always been the case. I think we all know that the probability he's still in the top two of openers come May 2019 is very high. Then its the ashes in England. If he's available, he plays.
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Im surprised anyone is giving any sort of acknowledgement to the theories of @SLA or @Mister Le Chiffre to be honest. One spouts constant nonsense and the other is @Gerry SA on a French passport. They might even have crossed paths somewhere along the 'South African boxing/ England supporter/ French diplomat/ Cambridge club without a name and no one owns a bat' scene
The comment about Ben Stokes is the latest in a long line of tripe. Easily worth his place in the England team with bat or ball (almost for his fielding aswell!) and he is very much loved by his international teammates. But dont let the truth get in the way of your need to seek attention
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Dropping Buttler Brucey? Bold move!
Yep - nice ton and all that yesterday, but he doesn't add the steady / experienced bit that we need, plus he can earn his living in the limited stuff.
He's not a top 3 batter, we won't drop Root or YJB, we shouldn't drop Pope and Buttler doesn't bowl.
ergo - he's the one to go in the current circumstances.
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Interesting stat from the test...all the Indian seamers were on avg quicker than their england counterparts...even Hardik Pandya was quicker than Anderson, Broad, Woakes, Stokes! Unbelievable!
England needs pace in their attack, if anyone needs to be dropped, it is Broad.
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In form right handed opener at the moment is probably Mitchell at Worcs. Not sure I would drop Buttler mind, good low middle order bat, and apparently a good presence in the dressing room. Pope is obviously ideal for that role, but less experienced at the moment.
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Yep - nice ton and all that yesterday, but he doesn't add the steady / experienced bit that we need, plus he can earn his living in the limited stuff.
He's not a top 3 batter, we won't drop Root or YJB, we shouldn't drop Pope and Buttler doesn't bowl.
ergo - he's the one to go in the current circumstances.
I suppose I see the logic but would have to disagree! On three points - if they're competing for one spot in the team I don't see how you could keep Pope over Buttler, Buttler's international class is well proven and now he's added a test ton under pressure to that whereas Pope is very unproven/inexperienced and has plenty of time to come again. Two, if we're looking for a new captain then Buttler is the obvious candidate, especially as there is no Brearley figure from the counties at the moment - top of my head Alex Wakeley and Vince are the only English skippers who've been in post longer than a season and a half! Three, Bairstow isn't going to be keeping any time soon so we need Buttler to take the gloves.
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Has Keaton Jennings been nuked yet?
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I suppose I see the logic but would have to disagree! On three points - if they're competing for one spot in the team I don't see how you could keep Pope over Buttler, Buttler's international class is well proven and now he's added a test ton under pressure to that whereas Pope is very unproven/inexperienced and has plenty of time to come again. Two, if we're looking for a new captain then Buttler is the obvious candidate, especially as there is no Brearley figure from the counties at the moment - top of my head Alex Wakeley and Vince are the only English skippers who've been in post longer than a season and a half! Three, Bairstow isn't going to be keeping any time soon so we need Buttler to take the gloves.
It was a nice ton, but "under pressure"? The game was already lost, they were never realistically going to bat 2 days, so it was effectively a net. It was probably the least-pressure situation imaginable.
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My thoughts on selection for the rest of the Summer and winter, for what they're worth...
If we take Ed Smith's horses for courses and form will be considered, Moeen has to come back in and - bearing in mind he is one of our best players of spin - might as well bat three for the next eight tests (before being considered for the number eight spot against the Aussies). Rashid has done okay, and will play the winter, but misses the next two. Woakes and Broad play one test each. That would allow Root and Pope to move to their best positions and give us as basis of:
Opener 1
Opener 2
Ali
Root
Bairstow
Pope
Stokes
Buttler (with the gloves to protect YJB)
Curran
Broad/Woakes
Anderson
Openers is tricky - I would rest Cook a game due to impending fatherhood - this has the added psychological benefit of breaking the streak whilst allowing him to rotate immediately back in. For Ageas I would go Jennings and Burns, then see who to leave out.
This winter in Sri Lanka needs a different line up, and I would see us using a pinch hitter as a benefit, as well as a way to balance the side. Liam Livingstone was our best bat there for the A side, and is an extra spin option, so... Perhaps:
Cook
Buttler
Ali
Root
Bairstow
Livingstone/Pope
Stokes
Rashid
Curran
Leach
Anderson
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If we take Ed Smith's horses for courses and form will be considered, Moeen has to come back in and - bearing in mind he is one of our best players of spin -
Is he? Didn't Nathan Lyon have him on toast for the entire Ashes - and India's seam attack is the threat, not their spinners.
Isn;t their a decent right-handed Yorskshireman out there/ ;)
#yorkshiremafia - "tonight you sleep with da (battered) fishes!!"
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This is England's own doing. You can't leave out two world class batsmen (KP and Bell) and expect young kids to make up. Imagine those two in the lineup right now, under a strong captain.
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This is England's own doing. You can't leave out two world class batsmen (KP and Bell) and expect young kids to make up. Imagine those two in the lineup right now, under a strong captain.
I think given they are now 38 and 36 that time is definitely past! Bell's dropping was definitely warranted at the time too. Where England have failed is finding lasting replacements, particularly openers. That said, if things had gone differently James Taylor would probably be England captain by now, not selector.
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So I haven't been able to watch much because I am away with no access to tv but I have seen the wickets on the BBC website and read about the test etc... and it sounds and looked very bad!
However what I will say is we are still ahead 2-1. And India were just as bad last test and are still very capable of going to the Rose bowl and being 150 all out.
We definitely have problems which I think stem from Root being captain but it is a brave man to take that away from him. Plus also who do you give it to, Butler? His place isn't definte. Stokes? That's a gamble considering his off field stuff.
Openers - Cook is undoubtedly on one of his downward slumps but look throughout his career and it is completely peaks and troughs, is he finished? I think he's got some very good deliveries and is definitely playing better than Jennings. Who has gone backwards again, when he 1st came back he was getting forwards with a positive step and now he seems to have gone back to just hanging on the back foot again.
Pope - saw an interesting tweet the other day asking if he was the next James Vince? He really needs to bat lower down if he's going to play those shots.
Rashid - not a stand alone test spinner simples. He doesn't have the control to keep pressure from one end etc...
It will be interesting to see what happens for the Rose bowl, I can see Mo coming in if YJB can't play. But apart from that I don't think they will majorly change. Maybe rest a seamer and Curran come back in.
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So I haven't been able to watch much because I am away with no access to tv but I have seen the wickets on the BBC website and read about the test etc... and it sounds and looked very bad!
However what I will say is we are still ahead 2-1. And India were just as bad last test and are still very capable of going to the Rose bowl and being 150 all out.
We definitely have problems which I think stem from Root being captain but it is a brave man to take that away from him. Plus also who do you give it to, Butler? His place isn't definte. Stokes? That's a gamble considering his off field stuff.
Openers - Cook is undoubtedly on one of his downward slumps but look throughout his career and it is completely peaks and troughs, is he finished? I think he's got some very good deliveries and is definitely playing better than Jennings. Who has gone backwards again, when he 1st came back he was getting forwards with a positive step and now he seems to have gone back to just hanging on the back foot again.
Pope - saw an interesting tweet the other day asking if he was the next James Vince? He really needs to bat lower down if he's going to play those shots.
Rashid - not a stand alone test spinner simples. He doesn't have the control to keep pressure from one end etc...
It will be interesting to see what happens for the Rose bowl, I can see Mo coming in if YJB can't play. But apart from that I don't think they will majorly change. Maybe rest a seamer and Curran come back in.
just as a alternative to Root, no one says it's a job for five years or more sport dos not work like that
Jimmy Anderson. Went for the captaincy last time round but the English way of succession management won the day.
England also have a history of making their best player the Captain, still despite mistakes of the past, we do continue to do this.
if the England captaincy comes along you cannot turn it down, no one has really in the past, and you can see why
but Root being Captain is the wrong move for this team and Root himself.
I wonder if some experienced heads in the England set up can see this? or genuinely believe it's right for the team and him?
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Is he? Didn't Nathan Lyon have him on toast for the entire Ashes - and India's seam attack is the threat, not their spinners.
Isn;t their a decent right-handed Yorskshireman out there/ ;)
What, apart from Root and Bairstow? Honest answer is, not right now - Brook in eighteen months time, for sure, but not yet. I scratched around for righties, but the candidates are old (Bell), injured (Livingstone) or in the tried and failed pot (Robson, Vince, Westley) Joe Clarke is a good player, but it's too soon...after that, it's at the stage where Beefy was calling for Phil Salt...
Ali. Look at his record in India and the Emirates last time. Given we probably want six options with the ball in Sri Lanka...
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Right, I know I'm going to get shouted down, but i don;t care. I wonder if we are getting into a similar situation that required a Brearley recall all those years ago?
Based on some of the decision that Root has made and the impact of captaincy has on his batting that might not be a bad option. Personally, I rather have him scoring runs for the team and not worry about people management side of the house. England need to balance their left/right combination in the team. If the last two tests are going to be on slow/low wickets and Ashwin is fit the number of left hand batsmen could turn into liability, especially if Baristow is not playing due to injury.
If England selector make that decision I would be :o
My team for the 4th test:
Option 1:
Burns
Mitchell/Robson
Cook (if he is taking paternity leave, pick who is not picked from Mitchell/Robson. Cook needs to be told that he needs to mentor/help the new openers settle down)
Root (will have to turn his arm over for couple of overs of spin)
Morgan (c) - Left field selection similar to Brearley
Pope
Buttler (wk, while Baristow is out with injury)
Stokes
Woakes
Curran/Broad (personally Broad needs to be dropped but I am completely biased against him due to his behavior on the field)
Anderson
Option 2
Burns
Mitchell/Robson
Cook
Root
Clarke/Livingston
Pope (England need to back the young guys in the team)
Stokes
Buttler (c, wk)
Woakes
Curran/Broad
Anderson
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I think given they are now 38 and 36 that time is definitely past! Bell's dropping was definitely warranted at the time too. Where England have failed is finding lasting replacements, particularly openers. That said, if things had gone differently James Taylor would probably be England captain by now, not selector.
who cares about age? as long as they are good enough, they should be playing. clearly, their replacements in the squad are far, far less capable.
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I have seen a few sides on here where people are completely forgetting we just got flogged all over the place and if you want to go into a test match with Stokes as your 4th seamer in a 4 man attack with no spinner, you are asking for trouble or praying for conditions like Lords
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I have seen a few sides on here where people are completely forgetting we just got flogged all over the place and if you want to go into a test match with Stokes as your 4th seamer in a 4 man attack with no spinner, you are asking for trouble or praying for conditions like Lords
Does England have any spinner that will hold up one end and not leak runs? The only spinners that I can think of are Rashid, Moeen Ali, Leach and Bess. I do not believe Rashid, Moeen or Bess are going to do a holding job, which basically leaves you with Leach unless I missed someone. Also, Root has to trust the spinner and he really has not handled Rashid so well so far, say compared to Morgan has done in ODI.
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What, apart from Root and Bairstow? Honest answer is, not right now - Brook in eighteen months time, for sure, but not yet. I scratched around for righties, but the candidates are old (Bell), injured (Livingstone) or in the tried and failed pot (Robson, Vince, Westley) Joe Clarke is a good player, but it's too soon...after that, it's at the stage where Beefy was calling for Phil Salt...
Ali. Look at his record in India and the Emirates last time. Given we probably want six options with the ball in Sri Lanka...
The leading right handed candidate for the top 3 would probably be Alex Davies? Not sure how strong a first class season he's having though if I'm honest?
Jack Leach took a strong looking 8fer today...
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The leading right handed candidate for the top 3 would probably be Alex Davies? Not sure how strong a first class season he's having though if I'm honest?
Jack Leach took a strong looking 8fer today...
I think Davies, in common with most of the Lancashire team, has been hit and miss (though it does throw up the interesting question of how many wicketkeepers England could field at once!).
On the Brearley point, I think the problem is that that savant leader of men does not really seem to exist in county cricket, where the job now seems to be passed around like a hot potato. Since the turn of the Century, who would our options have been? Gale, perhaps, though his form as coach has since suggested he might not have been the genius we thought at the time.
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Don't forget:
Buttler: nice lad, but what is his role? We already have a surfeit of counter-attacking lower middle order batsmen
Woakes: pace drops dramatically from one spell to the next, ineffective anywhere but in English conditions.
Stokes: only seems capable/interested in bowling endless bouncers, not a top 6 test batsman, and a man of his temper and violent tendencies must be a very negative and disruptive presence in the dressing room. No longer wants to field at slip.
England lineup:
1: vacant
2: vacant
3: vacant
4: vacant
5: Root
6: Bairstow (currently injured)
7: vacant
8: vacant
9: vacant
10: vacant
11: Anderson (close to retirement)
Re: Stokes not wanting to field at slip.
I am sure I saw/read somewhere that his stats at holding on to slip catches aren't particularly great so that makes sense. I'll try and find it if I can. We have been repeatedly hit over the head in the last few days with the fact that Cook has the worst slip record in recent times but Stokes wasn't much better iirc
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The guardian, which seems to get just about everything right, is saying Vince is in for cover of bairstow for the rose bowl test.
There's a couple of things despite the guy frustrating a lot of fans, some on here myself included.
He can bat 3 which at least solves one problem if root does prefer 4
He's very much in form this year
It's his home ground
He's got a decent amount of experience.
I think myself we do need someone with experience batting top 5, it's not really fair to bat Pope 4 in my book as he is a number 6 for Surrey.
The bloke can clearly play and has got starts, as opposed to getting no runs. :)
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There we go:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlCXM3gW4AAu4K9?format=jpg)
Also, bonus stat for Seniorplayer:
http://cricviz.com/2018/08/cricviz-analysis-england-v-india-second-test-day-three/ (http://cricviz.com/2018/08/cricviz-analysis-england-v-india-second-test-day-three/)
Chris Woakes has never dropped a catch for England; Ben Stokes has a catch success rate of 77%.
;)
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Stokes did a half decent job at 5 in the second innings, do we reckon hed stay there and let pope bat six?
Or is 5 to high for a 4th seamer??(kallis managed top order and 4 th bowler all his career)
So if bairstow out.
Cook/a n other
Jennings/a n other
Vince
Root
Stokes
Pope
Buttler
Ali/Rashid
Curran
Woakes
Anderson
I have a feeling they will pick Rashid, but personally I dont think hes any better than Ali with the ball im tests., and Ali is a bettter batsman.
Ali may not be top order but should be fine at 8 in tests.
Also I will continue to drop broad until England finally do it.
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Ali for Bairstow if he's not fit.
I'd rather Vince or Bell was playing than Pope. But now we've picked a him, we ought to give him a run.
Burns is sure to get his chance sooner or later, but I suspect he won't do a whole lot better than the others they've tried.
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The guardian, which seems to get just about everything right, is saying Vince is in for cover of bairstow for the rose bowl test.
There's a couple of things despite the guy frustrating a lot of fans, some on here myself included.
Watch him get picked and nick off for 21 with 4 x 4s
If theres one guy who refuses to learn from his mistakes, its James. And Id pay to watch him bat!
Maybe we need to stop returning to the same old failures such as Vince, Jennings and Balance and roam free with the likes of Clark, Gubbins and Livingstone - let us slurp from the cup of unabashed youth. Sink or swim ya little buggas!!!
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India have made two changes for the final two Tests. M Vijay and Kuldeep have been axed. 18 year old Prithvi Shaw and Hanuma Vihari have been added.
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@smilley792 that team actually looks balanced!
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Watch him get picked and nick off for 21 with 4 x 4s
If theres one guy who refuses to learn from his mistakes, its James. And Id pay to watch him bat!
Maybe we need to stop returning to the same old failures such as Vince, Jennings and Balance and roam free with the likes of Clark, Gubbins and Livingstone - let us slurp from the cup of unabashed youth. Sink or swim ya little buggas!!!
You don't think a spell of introspection on the County circuit can help improve a player? Vince has been in great form and looks worthy of a recall, Jennings has done no worse than any other opener in the series, and whilst I don't rate Ballance's technique you can't fault his hunger for runs.
Also, the only player on either team batting in the top 4 that actually looks good in the series is a batting phenomenon that will go down in history as one of the game's finest players.
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Any chance England will gamble and bring in Hameed, even though he has been struggling in county cricket? Or should he consider himself lucky not to be picked in the current revolving door that is ECB team selection.
Edit: If England lose the next test I hope England gamble with a young team but dropping Anderson, Broad, Cook. They are already talking about resting Anderson and Broad for SL.
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Stokes did a half decent job at 5 in the second innings, do we reckon hed stay there and let pope bat six?
Or is 5 to high for a 4th seamer??(kallis managed top order and 4 th bowler all his career)
So if bairstow out.
Cook/a n other
Jennings/a n other
Vince
Root
Stokes
Pope
Buttler
Ali/Rashid
Curran
Woakes
Anderson
I have a feeling they will pick Rashid, but personally I dont think hes any better than Ali with the ball im tests., and Ali is a bettter batsman.
Ali may not be top order but should be fine at 8 in tests.
Also I will continue to drop broad until England finally do it.
Right with you here re Broad .
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They won't drop Broad unless he is in need of a rest as he can do nothing then produce a match winning bowling spell.
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Really good article which I think sums up the Cook situation very well....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-6088017/Alastair-Cook-running-recipes-success.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-6088017/Alastair-Cook-running-recipes-success.html)
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Really good article which I think sums up the Cook situation very well....
[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-6088017/Alastair-Cook-running-recipes-success.html[/url] ([url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-6088017/Alastair-Cook-running-recipes-success.html[/url])
his test match record is keeping him in, Root needs him there too as he cant skipper the side on his own without Stokes,Cook and Anderson.
if you look at the amount of partners he has had since Strauss it just shows how hard the step up is to the level he is at,or certainly was at.
still think he can make a significant contribution in the series myself, he has had at least 2 unplayable deliveries out of 3 test matches
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His record, and the fact the ecb have failed dismally in bringing suitable replacements through their systems, is whats saving him for the moment
Find some decent youngsters to replace these old timers or they are gonna struggle
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his test match record is keeping him in, Root needs him there too as he cant skipper the side on his own without Stokes,Cook and Anderson.
if you look at the amount of partners he has had since Strauss it just shows how hard the step up is to the level he is at,or certainly was at.
still think he can make a significant contribution in the series myself, he has had at least 2 unplayable deliveries out of 3 test matches
People are talking about resting Anderson and Broad for the winter tours but I wonder wether Cook will rule himself out. When England leave he will be saying goodbye to a 6/7 week old, 2 and 4 yr olds for a 6 week tour.
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This has now become an interesting series. Hoping to see a series decider.
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Not sure why Vince is being brought in ahead of Bell...
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https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/829021/england-name-squad-for-fourth-test-against-india (https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/829021/england-name-squad-for-fourth-test-against-india)
I think I might cry.
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https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/829021/england-name-squad-for-fourth-test-against-india (https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/829021/england-name-squad-for-fourth-test-against-india)
I think I might cry.
Because you're so happy?
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you would think Vince now bats 3 if bairstow is unfit, pushing Root back to 4 and giving Pope a bit more of a chance
whether you think Vince is the right guy that surely has to be the right thinking. Pope is just a young lad they were asking too much of him I reckon
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I'd quite like to see the following for the 4th test presuming Bairstow is out:
Cook
Jennings
Vince
Root
Pope
Buttler
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Anderson
Would prefer Curran to be playing but hard to fit him in - nice to have some choice in the bowling department. If only the same could be said for the batting!!
*Cough* Daryl Mitchell *Cough*
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Not sure why Vince is being brought in ahead of Bell...
I think it is the end for Bell,
......or a Bell-end if you like. :D
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Yey!....Vince again look forward to him snicking off for a pretty 15-30
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Shame as Bell looks to be in form. And we know he can perform at this level too!
But with Bairstow injured, Vince will get the 3 spot, although I suspect this will be his last chance to perform.
Cook
Jennings
Vince
Root (Captain Happy being back at 4!)
Pope
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes/Curran
Rashid/Ali
Stu
Jim
If Vince and Pope do perform, then once fit Bairstow may need to dislodge Buttler.
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Shame as Bell looks to be in form. And we know he can perform at this level too!
But with Bairstow injured, Vince will get the 3 spot, although I suspect this will be his last chance to perform.
Cook
Jennings
Vince
Root (Captain Happy being back at 4!)
Pope
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes/Curran
Rashid/Ali
Stu
Jim
If Vince and Pope do perform, then once fit Bairstow may need to dislodge Buttler.
it might not be the end for Bell, sri lanka tour coming up, he can open, Jennings? cook to take a tour off?
who knows
I think that will be the side PH, who is the better spinner? Rashid or Ali? clearly lower order Ali is miles ahead as a batsman....
but we are picking the best spinner(I think) and that is Leach by my reckoning...
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Shame as Bell looks to be in form. And we know he can perform at this level too!
But with Bairstow injured, Vince will get the 3 spot, although I suspect this will be his last chance to perform.
Cook
Jennings
Vince
Root (Captain Happy being back at 4!)
Pope
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes/Curran
Rashid/Ali
Stu
Jim
If Vince and Pope do perform, then once fit Bairstow may need to dislodge Buttler.
Yep that will definitely be the team dependent on Bairstow's fitness of course.
The interesting scenarios here I see are as follows -
1. How long can Root put up with Rashid, having no control from a spinner etc... therefore surely brings into question selecting Mo.
2. Does Buttler actually keep the gloves permanently if he has a great game and when YBJ comes back he is a specialist batsman.
3. As said above... what happens if Vince actually gets it right?
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3. well.....Vince has another big chance here. if you can bat 3 you can open.Jennings to be needs a score this time otherwise he's out.Cook does too,maybe he wont tour SL.
its a huge opportunity again for him.I hope he does well despite the frustrations of watching him cream everything in sight then get out the same way
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Question of the day: how long do England persist with Cook? He isnt getting any younger and hasnt justified his selection in a long time now. Is it time to let him go? Maybe have him play a few fc games to get his confidence back? Clearly reputation alone doesnt justify selection?
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Question of the day: how long do England persist with Cook? He isnt getting any younger and hasnt justified his selection in a long time now. Is it time to let him go? Maybe have him play a few fc games to get his confidence back? Clearly reputation alone doesnt justify selection?
You say reputation alone doesn't get you selected but that completely depends on the player and circumstances.
The Cook situation is an extremely strange situation which the ECB have made worse by not looking at any sort of succession plan. We all know the stats about how many partners he's had.
Firstly, you look at Cooks career and as I have said before it is full of peaks and troughs so what's to say that he isn't going to go out and score big next innings?
Secondly, as he is an opener you have to look at the other end as well and quite frankly Jennings is clearly batting just as bad (if not worse) as Cook - so what do you do, drop both of them!
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Question of the day: how long do England persist with Cook? He isnt getting any younger and hasnt justified his selection in a long time now. Is it time to let him go? Maybe have him play a few fc games to get his confidence back? Clearly reputation alone doesnt justify selection?
Until they find someone to replace him.
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Give Jason Roy a go maybe? Try Roy and JB as openers?
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Give Jason Roy a go maybe? Try Roy and JB as openers?
Personally I would give both Cook and Jennings the rest of series and then if neither perform you can drop Jennings and also say to Cook take the Winter to be with your new baby and kids whilst we try someone new etc...
Then give 2 new openers the 6 tests through the winter. So choose 2 from Burns, Gubbins, Mitchell etc...
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Question of the day: how long do England persist with Cook? He isnt getting any younger and hasnt justified his selection in a long time now. Is it time to let him go? Maybe have him play a few fc games to get his confidence back? Clearly reputation alone doesnt justify selection?
The brilliant George Dobell's take on the question in the following piece is worth a read, basically his time is almost up and the lack of obvious candidates to replace him shouldn't affect the decision...
http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/24418388/alastair-cook-rarer-peaks-problem-england (http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/24418388/alastair-cook-rarer-peaks-problem-england)
I especially enjoyed his analogy...
"Cook is starting to look like the gym subscription you forget to cancel; the mobile phone contract that ties you in long after the screen is broken; the much-loved family pet whose next trip to the vet may not involve a return journey."
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Give Jason Roy a go maybe? Try Roy and JB as openers?
Its not a fing one day game.. Jesus
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The brilliant George Dobell's take on the question in the following piece is worth a read, basically his time is almost up and the lack of obvious candidates to replace him shouldn't affect the decision...
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/24418388/alastair-cook-rarer-peaks-problem-england[/url] ([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/24418388/alastair-cook-rarer-peaks-problem-england[/url])
I especially enjoyed his analogy...
"Cook is starting to look like the gym subscription you forget to cancel; the mobile phone contract that ties you in long after the screen is broken; the much-loved family pet whose next trip to the vet may not involve a return journey."
There is no point throwing away a player when there is no one better. Have we learned nothing from KP\bell situations . He isnt playing well but no one else is better and there are a few more in established players worth dropping first
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If Vince and Pope do perform, then once fit Bairstow may need to dislodge Buttler.
I think we can safely say that a fit Bairstow will be in the side come hell or highwater. What will be interesting will be the role he performs - if the management are keen on the idea of having Jonny as a specialist batsman with Buttler keeping at seven, then they may use this as an excuse to make the switch.
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There is no point throwing away a player when there is no one better. Have we learned nothing from KP\bell situations . He isnt playing well but no one else is better and there are a few more in established players worth dropping first
I believe some one mentioned this couple of pages back that having Cook as a opening partner puts additional pressure on the new guy. They (new guys) know they are just one or two bad knock away from being dropped with managements stance being that Cook is undroppable (sp?) because we do not have a replacement player for him. Personally, I would drop him and try two new openers over the winter for sure or even sooner and give those guys 10 games or so to settle down. I would also like to see a left/right combination at the opening, which will force bowlers to change their line and length. Right now, I get the feeling that it takes bowlers about 2 overs each to find the rhythm and the two left hand batsmen at the top are toast and start struggling starting with the 5 or 6 over the innings.
Just my 2c or 2p worth of opinion ;)
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I don't understand the logic of 'blooding new openers over the winter' have everyone forgotten that Sri Lanka are playing their home matches on absolute sandpits so whether it's Burns/Gubbins/Hameed/Mitchell they should've played these last two matches as getting runs in SL will be bloody difficult
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I don't understand the logic of 'blooding new openers over the winter' have everyone forgotten that Sri Lanka are playing their home matches on absolute sandpits so whether it's Burns/Gubbins/Hameed/Mitchell they should've played these last two matches as getting runs in SL will be bloody difficult
Yep that's why Jennings should play good player of spin didn't he get 100 in Mumbai
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There is no point throwing away a player when there is no one better. Have we learned nothing from KP\bell situations . He isnt playing well but no one else is better and there are a few more in established players worth dropping first
I completely agree with this. Players don't exist in isolation, they must be judged within context. Bell and Pietersen were removed far to early without any idea who would replace them. Given we haven't been able to find one opener to replace Strauss, I fail to see how replacing Cook is going to strengthen the batting.
If there was an outstanding candidate being kept out of the team by Cook then waiting for Cook to find form would be hindering the side. Given that we have gone back to Jennings in the hope that he is a better player now than the one who failed to hold down a place the last time he was given a go, that plainly isn't the case
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I completely agree with this. Players don't exist in isolation, they must be judged within context. Bell and Pietersen were removed far to early without any idea who would replace them. Given we haven't been able to find one opener to replace Strauss, I fail to see how replacing Cook is going to strengthen the batting.
If there was an outstanding candidate being kept out of the team by Cook then waiting for Cook to find form would be hindering the side. Given that we have gone back to Jennings in the hope that he is a better player now than the one who failed to hold down a place the last time he was given a go, that plainly isn't the case
Yes indeed. Jennings they really want to come thru I don't think they wanted to drop him first time round, problem is he looks to have the same faults. I've had a tot up not everyone but some I can't think of tried in 2 years:
Lyth
Robson
Hameed
Duckett
Vince
Malan
Ballance
Westley
Pope
Stoneman
I'm sure I've missed some but apart from ballance everyone has been top order
Compton was another
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The only one of that lot who looked comfortable was Hameed who was unfortunate to lose his place due to injury and whose form subsequently has made him unselectable. The rest fell far below what was required
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I completely agree with this. Players don't exist in isolation, they must be judged within context. Bell and Pietersen were removed far to early without any idea who would replace them. Given we haven't been able to find one opener to replace Strauss, I fail to see how replacing Cook is going to strengthen the batting.
If there was an outstanding candidate being kept out of the team by Cook then waiting for Cook to find form would be hindering the side. Given that we have gone back to Jennings in the hope that he is a better player now than the one who failed to hold down a place the last time he was given a go, that plainly isn't the case
Fair enough, but I have to ask is the new guy likely to be any worst than Cook in current form? I think it is worth trying a new opener, especially if the opener in question is a solid fielder in slips. The downside is the runs scored are to what Cook has scored recently, but the upside is that England could end up with a better slip fielder compared to Cook and the new guy gets experience at the highest level.
Cook has lost his edge after 2013/2014 Ashes in Australia. His average is down almost 7 runs but the bigger worry is the number of centuries he has scored before (25) v/s after (7). He has not scored a century since the Melbourne test which was 8 tests ago and the closest that he has come to one is the 70 against Pakistan @ Lords.
Stats Before 2013/14 Ashes (http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/11728.html?class=1;spanmax2=31+Oct+2013;spanmin2=01+Jan+2006;spanval2=span;template=results;type=allround)
Stats After 2013/14 Ashes (http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/11728.html?class=1;spanmax2=23+Aug+2018;spanmin2=01+Nov+2013;spanval2=span;template=results;type=allround)
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Firstly I will point out that personally I wouldn't drop Cook right now.
However I also really more and more am coming to the conclusion that we are looking for a white elephant and the simply isn't a replacement for Cook. We are putting to much pressure on ourselves to find one. Therefore there needs to be a leap of faith and through in the best we have and back them to the hilt and be done with it.
If it's in the Winter of course it's going to be tough it's Sri Lanka away on burnsens from ball one. If it's next summer it's the pressure of a home ashes.... but it has to be some time doesn't it.
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Its not a fing one day game...
If only cricket lovers were able to say this more often.
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Crackers to drop Cook before the winter. Sri Lanka prepare absolute burners and you're going to drop an opening batsman with 12k test runs who averages 53 in Asia.
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Re dropping Cook.....
My opinion is to find an opening partner for him first! He has had so many opening partners with very limited success.
We know that Cook can open but he hasn't seemed to look settled since Strauss retired! Part of this could be due to him no longer feeling 100% settled? (pure spculation, but we all know cricket can be a game of confidence!)
We don't know the reasons, but once we get an opener who starts to perform, then we give them a go together and see how they get on?
Lets face it, there is no real alternative right now and England are struggling to find a second opener -so let's concentrate on that second opener for the moment?
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Hameeds form isnt great. But Id still pick him.
Get him in the squad, and practicing, working with England coaches and becoming part of the squad.
Then take him to Sri Lanka, and back him as your opener.
Remember he made his runs for England in India, he was boss, and even with a broken hand. He was all over ashwin in that test, and ashwin is currently the best spinner out there, and that was in ashwins conditions!!
Back the man!!
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Re dropping Cook.....
My opinion is to find an opening partner for him first! He has had so many opening partners with very limited success.
We know that Cook can open but he hasn't seemed to look settled since Strauss retired! Part of this could be due to him no longer feeling 100% settled? (pure spculation, but we all know cricket can be a game of confidence!)
We don't know the reasons, but once we get an opener who starts to perform, then we give them a go together and see how they get on?
Lets face it, there is no real alternative right now and England are struggling to find a second opener -so let's concentrate on that second opener for the moment?
On the switch hit podcast they were suggesting that cook isnt helping people settle, he is struggling and has been for a while and that is putting the new guys at the other end under more pressure.
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I'm currently of the opinion that we should just do the opposite of whatever Michael Vaughan suggests.
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On the switch hit podcast they were suggesting that cook isnt helping people settle, he is struggling and has been for a while and that is putting the new guys at the other end under more pressure.
Yes I heard that too, from Mark Butcher who, unlike Vaughan, doesn't just tend to say things to be "controversial". This kind of echoes the point from George Dobell's article that Cook hasn't made a particularly particularly meaningful contribution in a test for years; all of his 5 centuries since Oct 2015 were on flat, dead slow tracks in huge totals, and on a pitch with a bit in it, or any pace, he's been consistently found wanting. Perhaps his struggles have affected his junior partners, but then again would 2 inexperienced openers fare any better?
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On the switch hit podcast they were suggesting that cook isnt helping people settle, he is struggling and has been for a while and that is putting the new guys at the other end under more pressure.
Doesnt that work the other way too?
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Doesnt that work the other way too?
You'd like to think that Cook, as a senior player, should be able to show a bit of leadership and shouldn't have his form messed up by allowing a junior partner to bed in. Did Strauss's form collapse when Cook joined him as an opening partner? Or Tresco's when Strauss first opened with him? Of course maybe they were just better batsmen than the current crop, as the apparent lack of quality opening batsmen to choose from is a terrible indictment of the domestic game now, one of many fundamental problems we seem to have. Sadly I don't think there's any easy answer to this one.
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You'd like to think that Cook, as a senior player, should be able to show a bit of leadership and shouldn't have his form messed up by allowing a junior partner to bed in. Did Strauss's form collapse when Cook joined him as an opening partner? Or Tresco's when Strauss first opened with him? Of course maybe they were just better batsmen than the current crop, as the apparent lack of quality opening batsmen to choose from is a terrible indictment of the domestic game now, one of many fundamental problems we seem to have. Sadly I don't think there's any easy answer to this one.
there isn't an easy answer, quite right, and the England management im sure know it.They will be loathe to jettison such and experienced player with a whole raft of players tried in top 3 in recent times.
if I was making my way in test cricket id thank my lucky stars Cook was around to bat with,talk to and generally learn from.
m backing him for a score at the Rose bowl.
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The argument that Cooks tons all come when England score big is kind of invalid....
Surely England have only scored big because he's got a score?
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The argument that Cooks tons all come when England score big is kind of invalid....
Surely England have only scored big because he's got a score?
In general they've been in very high scoring matches where other players have scored big too, and/or in conditions heavily loaded against bowlers, so his performance hasn't been pivotal.
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You'd like to think that Cook, as a senior player, should be able to show a bit of leadership and shouldn't have his form messed up by allowing a junior partner to bed in. Did Strauss's form collapse when Cook joined him as an opening partner? Or Tresco's when Strauss first opened with him? Of course maybe they were just better batsmen than the current crop, as the apparent lack of quality opening batsmen to choose from is a terrible indictment of the domestic game now, one of many fundamental problems we seem to have. Sadly I don't think there's any easy answer to this one.
I was playing devils advocate to an extent, but I dont think having a whole heap of constantly changing partners has made Cooks life any easier.
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The Times claiming Joe Denly is in the frame for Sri Lanka/Windies tours... seems unlikely but who knows!
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The Times claiming Joe Denly is in the frame for Sri Lanka/Windies tours... seems unlikely but who knows!
you never know. I think we may just pick an experienced player especially if Cook stays at home,which he might I suppose
Bell/denly/Mitchell/Vince.......all have decent experience
Denly has had a very good season
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Experienced player required to play on bunsens vs side led by highly successful tubby left arm spinner... Samit, your time has come!
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Who are the best players of spin we have currently?
But who.....
- are eligable to play for England
- are top order batsmen
- play spin really fantasically and brilliantly well
- haven't got any plans and fancy a trip to SL
- are having a fine season with the bat
Applications being taken now! Any ideas?
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The Times claiming Joe Denly is in the frame for Sri Lanka/Windies tours... seems unlikely but who knows!
Has he packed up smoking yet?
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In general they've been in very high scoring matches where other players have scored big too, and/or in conditions heavily loaded against bowlers, so his performance hasn't been pivotal.
And yet we have a host of players who people class are world class who barely have an impact either consistently who are being touted as get em up the order
Accept englsnd has nothing coming though and cook is still the best we have. Someone mentioned hameed below.. hes literlaly looked the only one likely since Strauss so if youre going to throw someone in it might as well be him. At least he looks the part technically and mentally even if his stats are literally miles away from selection.. not like balance, Vince and co whose stats are good.. we just know they arent now upto it technically or mentally
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And yet we have a host of players who people class are world class who barely have an impact either consistently who are being touted as get em up the order
Accept englsnd has nothing coming though and cook is still the best we have. Someone mentioned hameed below.. hes literlaly looked the only one likely since Strauss so if youre going to throw someone in it might as well be him. At least he looks the part technically and mentally even if his stats are literally miles away from selection.. not like balance, Vince and co whose stats are good.. we just know they arent now upto it technically or mentally
Its true that county championship averages seem to be a less reliable indicator of test potential than ever, so perhaps we do have to take a punt on players that look the part such as Hameed. These kind of picks worked once with the likes of Tresco and Vaughan whose county stats were pretty ordinary. I dont think any of our middle order have the technique to cut it higher up the order. There was some talk of even opening with Woakes wasnt there, but his technique against the short ball was properly shown up a Trentbridge
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There was some talk of even opening with Woakes wasnt there, but his technique against the short ball was properly shown up a Trentbridge
I'm sure that Woakes would do as well (if not better) than most of the others that have tried so far. But come the next Ashes, Starc and co would be making very short work of him!
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Couple of mentions of that now, not sure Woakes does actually have a problem against the short ball... not sure he should open the batting either mind!
Think these days the reason blokes averaging in the 30s are getting in the test side is less a Trescothick style gut feel selection and more that unfortunately there simply isn't much of a queue of players with massive county averages to pick from.
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Fourth test Stokes might play solely as a batsman
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Im confused - if Stokes plays as a batsman, then we still need 5 bowlers. Bairstow is down as a batsman and Butler to keep, plus Vince in the mix. Im struggling to narrow this down to a simple XI
Cook
Jennings
Root
YJB
Pope
Stokes
Butler +
Woakes
Curran
Rashid
Broad
Anderson
For me - if hes not fit to bowl, then Stokes misses out.
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Fourth test Stokes might play solely as a batsman
Why?? Hes not good enough at batting to demand a place as a batsmen..avg whT.. 35/36??
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Lots of speculation about the team, as normal. The break between the matches will help the England team. The Indian team played really well at Trent Bridge and the inclusion of Bumrah made a big difference.
The reality is that England's top order is still a mess, but also that the Indians are bowling well with the new ball.
As much as I was a fan of Root at 3, it has clearly failed. As our best player the team management need to adjust that. I am also a huge fan of Ollie Pope, but it is clear he isn't a test 4 at the moment. So what do you do.
Root moves to 4. Build the team around that.
We can't keep playing Jos as a number 7 specialist batsman. Either you are a specialist batter and in the top 5 or you are the keeper. Five is too high for Bairstow to keep and bat (finger injury or not) and his second innings returns have shown this too. So either Jos or Johnny are in the in the top 5 or they keep.
So what are you left with? Well Johnny won't be keeping at the Ageas bowl. So Jos is at 7 with the gloves.
Cook and Jennings are opening, rightly or wrongly.
Vince, Moeen or YJB at three as that is where the gap is
Root at 4
Pope, Stokes and jos
Woakes, Curran may come in for Woakes as I am not sure on his fitness.
Rashid or Moeen
Broad and Anderson
Simples.
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Lots of speculation about the team, as normal. The break between the matches will help the England team. The Indian team played really well at Trent Bridge and the inclusion of Bumrah made a big difference.
The reality is that England's top order is still a mess, but also that the Indians are bowling well with the new ball.
As much as I was a fan of Root at 3, it has clearly failed. As our best player the team management need to adjust that. I am also a huge fan of Ollie Pope, but it is clear he isn't a test 4 at the moment. So what do you do.
Root moves to 4. Build the team around that.
We can't keep playing Jos as a number 7 specialist batsman. Either you are a specialist batter and in the top 5 or you are the keeper. Five is too high for Bairstow to keep and bat (finger injury or not) and his second innings returns have shown this too. So either Jos or Johnny are in the in the top 5 or they keep.
So what are you left with? Well Johnny won't be keeping at the Ageas bowl. So Jos is at 7 with the gloves.
Cook and Jennings are opening, rightly or wrongly.
Vince, Moeen or YJB at three as that is where the gap is
Root at 4
Pope, Stokes and jos
Woakes, Curran may come in for Woakes as I am not sure on his fitness.
Rashid or Moeen
Broad and Anderson
Simples.
You're implying that Bairstow is a one in three shot for selection, and moves to convenience Pope? I'm not sure that is right.
Though I do think there is an argument for moving the order round in the circumstances. If Pope is to be given a fair chance - and they have selected him now - then he should bat at six where he does for Surrey. How you fit the other personalities in to the side is anyone's guess, as Root and Jonny both ideally bat four, Stokes, Buttler and Pope all six
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You're implying that Bairstow is a one in three shot for selection, and moves to convenience Pope? I'm not sure that is right.
Though I do think there is an argument for moving the order round in the circumstances. If Pope is to be given a fair chance - and they have selected him now - then he should bat at six where he does for Surrey. How you fit the other personalities in to the side is anyone's guess, as Root and Jonny both ideally bat four, Stokes, Buttler and Pope all six
You pick your best number 4 at 4, 5 at 5, 6 at six and anyone else just fills in and you accept they will fail but as long as they look to apply themselves to test batting its all we can ask. Then at least you know what positions youre not looking for.
Currently we seem to rate most of our god awful and inconsistent batting side as world class so everyone is in denial and over rating abilities.
Stokes is a six at most
Bairstow 5
Pope who knows
Buttler isnt a top six batter but if you must play him then he goes six and stokes seven as the all rounder.
Either way, its tragic how much people over rate our players and wont just admit they arent very good
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It sounds ludicrous but if YJB is fit then England could be unchanged after getting an absolute drubbing. Vince was selected as cover remember and Mo was always in the original squad. So if YJB is fit then the side stays the same, whether right or wrong, Root has no reason to move, they still think Pope is a number 4 etc....
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Why?? Hes not good enough at batting to demand a place as a batsmen..avg whT.. 35/36??
Sure I read that Stokes avg is above 40 batting at 5? Regardless 36 is better than anything else out there atm. He's batted well in this series, comparatively.
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Might be worth considering newspapers are saying bairstow may not get the gloves back instead be assured of his place by the management and shifted up to open for the winter tours.
Mixed feelings about this if it proves to be true, we know Bayliss is a huge fan of Butler in the side and keeping, and we are desperately short of quality top order batsmen.
It also would create a space in the middle to accomodate a newbie, or put Pope there if he is in fact better off batting 5 or 6 to get used to test cricket.
It's not the worst idea I've heard myself, I don't believe we can have two keepers in where both are specialist batsman as low down as 7 or 8 if they both played
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Sure I read that Stokes avg is above 40 batting at 5? Regardless 36 is better than anything else out there atm. He's batted well in this series, comparatively.
And stokes is improving every match
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Rumours that India will be unchanged for the first time under Kohli's captaincy
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Question for the more knowledgeable folks here.
Is Baristow so insecure about his position that he is willing to potentially risk being out of the team for a long time by insisting on keeping? Source: Baristow's interview on Cricinfo
I would have thought that his name would be the second name on the team sheet after Root.
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It probably comes third behind Anderson but yes. Thing is, he spent a LOT of time being treated as a glorified drinks waiter by Team England, you can see why he wants the reassurance.
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It probably comes third behind Anderson but yes. Thing is, he spent a LOT of time being treated as a glorified drinks waiter by Team England, you can see why he wants the reassurance.
I fully understand the reassurance part and the team management needs to deliver that by saying that as long as he continues to add value to the team cause he has a place. I feel that he is potentially risking his career by insisting on keeping unless he does not trust himself just on batting alone and if that is the case he should be batting at 7 and not any higher.
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Surely the decision is down to Coach and the Captain isn't it? For the good of the team as a whole, and not the individual.
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yes judging by his comments today he wont be giving up the gloves without an almighty fight.
I think the insecurity about his place is more to do with one dayers,not test. he's a bolt on cert for the test team.
clearly he wants to keep and bat, I think England have other ideas thou. you could say he is wanted a specialist batsman because of the lack of quality around him...and the amount of players who have tried and failed.
I did read he is wanted to open on the winter tours by England and will receive assurances about his place.
Bairstow seems to have his own ideas thou and was not afraid to speak out when he got left out of the one day team.
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The Bairstow thing is simple math really.... If he keeps as well he has 2 irons in the fire, not 1. No matter how good you are, what number on the team sheet, you always what the biggest chance to play for your country. Keeping gives Bairstow 2 chances simples.
I also think that Bairstow believes he bats better when he keeps for whatever reason he thinks.
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Yes but you can see both sides really. He has improved and done a huge amount of work on his keeping but the team might need him to have a different role. Tricky one, team comes first I'm afraid, if we were top of the world table it might be different, but if we lose to India,which I think we will next match, we go behind Sri Lanka...I think.
The thing I think as well, is if a new player comes in,let's say Pope or Joe Clarke, is it right to drop them down a bit and senior players take up the more difficult roles?
If you look at Pope, there's no way in a million teas he should be asked to bat 4 when he is 20 and bats 6 for his County.
If bairstow does open, it makes a space in the middle order.....
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I think Buttler is a more natural wicket keeper than Bairstow. Bairstow is a manufactured keeper and is decent against seam bowling but I doubt he'll offer much on the raging turners in Sri Lanka where Buttler having extra experience in India should make his keeping more valuable
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I was a staunch supporter of Bairstow keeping the gloves in the past but I think it's time for him to hand them over to Buttler. If you look at the stats Bairstow averages over 55 in the 1st dig if England bat first (i.e he hasn't kept wicket yet) and around 30 in innings after he has kept. Stats speak for themselves at this point I think. England need that 55 average desperately in the top 5.
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The fact with Johnny is that he has never scored runs after keeping.
He is also one of the top batsmen in the country and averaged over 100 for Yorkshire when not keeping.
Even Sanga averaged 20 less when keeping.
This is the best thing for Bairstow. He is also a brilliant outfielder.
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I tend to agree - you also have to ask how much better that 55 might be had he not had to slog with the tail so often.
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Team has been announced, Pope dropped for Moeen and Sam in for the injured Woakes.
Cook
Jennings
Roooooooooot
Bairstow
Moeen
Stokes
Buttler
Curran
Rashid
Broad
Anderson.
Apparently Moeen is playing because stokes isn't 100%
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Apparently Moeen is batting at #7, which is quite frankly, stupid
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Harsh on pope?
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The fact with Johnny is that he has never scored runs after keeping.
He is also one of the top batsmen in the country and averaged over 100 for Yorkshire when not keeping.
Even Sanga averaged 20 less when keeping.
This is the best thing for Bairstow. He is also a brilliant outfielder.
Completely agree, ridiculous to expect him to score top order runs when keeping when Sanga, Ab, Stewart couldn't manage it!
Although I will say I spent two ODIs last summer sitting behind Bairstow's fielding position... brilliant is highly generous.
Once Stokes was at risk of not bowling then Pope was always going to miss out, probably a good thing that he's been swapped for an all-rounder rather than dropped, pressure whenever heay come back in future will hopefully be less!
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This is great from Jonathan Liew on Twitter:
That England middle order in full:
4 Keeper who cant keep playing as batsman
5 All-rounder who cant bowl
6 Batsman playing as keeper
7 Whatever Mo is these days
8 All-rounder dropped when first all-rounder was cleared in court recalled to do his bowling for him
Hope this helps
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Completely agree, ridiculous to expect him to score top order runs when keeping when Sanga, Ab, Stewart couldn't manage it!
Although I will say I spent two ODIs last summer sitting behind Bairstow's fielding position... brilliant is highly generous.
Once Stokes was at risk of not bowling then Pope was always going to miss out, probably a good thing that he's been swapped for an all-rounder rather than dropped, pressure whenever heay come back in future will hopefully be less!
de Villiers averaged 60 odd batting second in matches he kept so he was doing decently
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de Villiers averaged 60 odd batting second in matches he kept so he was doing decently
He's also a scratch golfer, and could have played pro tennis and rugby. Best to limit discussion to mere mortals.
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This is great from Jonathan Liew on Twitter:
That England middle order in full:
4 Keeper who cant keep playing as batsman
5 All-rounder who cant bowl
6 Batsman playing as keeper
7 Whatever Mo is these days
8 All-rounder dropped when first all-rounder was cleared in court recalled to do his bowling for him
Hope this helps
This side may have a very higgly-d piggly-d look about it but I can see it working (obviously openers need runs etc...) as Mo gives us an extra spin option which will help Root with Rashid.
Curran gives a left arm option etc...
And looking ahead to the winter Mo is definitely going to play and possibly another spinner as well as Rashid, so with Stokes bowling you actually could play Pope and another spinner for say Curran and Anderson/Broad as an example.
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This side may have a very higgly-d piggly-d look about it but I can see it working (obviously openers need runs etc...) as Mo gives us an extra spin option which will help Root with Rashid.
Curran gives a left arm option etc...
And looking ahead to the winter Mo is definitely going to play and possibly another spinner as well as Rashid, so with Stokes bowling you actually could play Pope and another spinner for say Curran and Anderson/Broad as an example.
Hmmm.not how im seeing it. Yes Mo will tour with probably leach and Rashid(if he tours). Looking at this team we look a seasmer short if Stokes is struggling to bowl. In which case we should have another seamer in the side with Broad,Anderson and Curran
Glad Curran is back he was very unlucky to miss out last time. But we are now playing 2 spinners on a ground we have never needed 2 before. It going to swing at Trent Bridge.
:)
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Harsh on pope?
Not really, England dont need another person going for the number 6 spot at the moment
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Hmmm.not how im seeing it. Yes Mo will tour with probably leach and Rashid(if he tours). Looking at this team we look a seasmer short if Stokes is struggling to bowl. In which case we should have another seamer in the side with Broad,Anderson and Curran
Glad Curran is back he was very unlucky to miss out last time. But we are now playing 2 spinners on a ground we have never needed 2 before. It going to swing at Trent Bridge.
:)
Last test at the Rose bowl... Mo 8 fer and Cook runs! What he wouldn't give for those now.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/11691/scorecard/667715/england-vs-india-3rd-investec-test-india-tour-of-england-2014 (http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/11691/scorecard/667715/england-vs-india-3rd-investec-test-india-tour-of-england-2014)
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Last test at the Rose bowl... Mo 8 fer and Cook runs! What he wouldn't give for those now.
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/11691/scorecard/667715/england-vs-india-3rd-investec-test-india-tour-of-england-2014[/url] ([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/11691/scorecard/667715/england-vs-india-3rd-investec-test-india-tour-of-england-2014[/url])
ah..of course, its the rose bowl :)
Cook to come good this match mark my words!
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Not really, England dont need another person going for the number 6 spot at the moment
If they had dropped him for a batsman I would sort of have understood for that reason, but they'd have been much better playing Moeen for Rashid on the basis that he is a less lavish option. If Stokes can't bowl much, Anderson, Broad, Curran, Ali, Jennings, Root wouldn't have sucked...
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Don't see any issues with the bowling tbh. Anderson and Broad 20 overs each per day. Curran is 15 overs easily. Stokes maybe 5/8 overs. Moeen for the first innings 15-18 overs. Rashid a few as he's surely an option for the second innings
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Rumours that India will be unchanged for the first time under Kohli's captaincy
Yes I read that. I'd be surprised if they didn't go for Jadeja though, would help to have another spin option down there, they could even drop a batsman and not massively weaken the order.
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I like the look of this England line up with Bairstow up the order, I really rate him and don't think he'll let us down.
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I think we might be getting used to it permanently pretty soon!
It's a tough call but the right one , bairstow has put a lot of work into his keeping but surely no one would doubt his position as one of the best 5 in the Country.
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Despite all this talk of a resurgent India etc. in the news, I think Eng will win the last two tests easily. The last test win for India was a one off, maybe Eng took it a bit lightly after the big win at Lords and the toss decision backfired.
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This is great from Jonathan Liew on Twitter:
That England middle order in full:
4 Keeper who cant keep playing as batsman
5 All-rounder who cant bowl
6 Batsman playing as keeper
7 Whatever Mo is these days
8 All-rounder dropped when first all-rounder was cleared in court recalled to do his bowling for him
Hope this helps
I saw this one from Nick Hoult which is also excellent -
'England have a bloke batting at three who likes to bat four, a bloke batting four who likes to bat five, a bloke batting five who likes to bat six, a bloke batting six who was picked as a specialist no 7 and a no 7 who scored 219 last week batting at no 3'
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I saw this one from Nick Hoult which is also excellent -
'England have a bloke batting at three who likes to bat four, a bloke batting four who likes to bat five, a bloke batting five who likes to bat six, a bloke batting six who was picked as a specialist no 7 and a no 7 who scored 219 last week batting at no 3'
You couldn't make it up really could you :D
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Who are Jonathan Liew and Nick Hoult?
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Did anyone see the footage of Kumar Dharmasena standing to umpire at the England nets? Does anyone know if there's a reason for that? Is it like an umpiring warm up?
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Who are Jonathan Liew and Nick Hoult?
Liew is the independent newspaper cricket correspondent.
Hoult is the Telegraph newspaper cricket correspondent.
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we are having a bat.
India unchanged.
Anyone else nervous for the openers? or it it just because im an opener :) or was anyway
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Jennings clueless with that.
Cook wont survive too long here either. Can see England 4 down before lunch in these conditions
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well I think its fair to say if Jennings doesnt get a score in the second innings then that could be the end of him
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SELECT RORY BURNS
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Jennings has got to go. we keep avoiding the problem
we need the best available top order batsman with proven class.
if that means having Bell back for 12 months lets do it
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Root extremely lucky with that no ball call. Might be a game changer
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SELECT RORY BURNS
Should have been selected 12 months ago !!
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I don't think many left handers could have played the one that got Jennings 80 mph and swings in.
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Root misses another inswinger - absolutley plumb again. Wasted review that
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Yep Root done by the length ball swiong in late
Winning the toss and batting a poor decision especially in the conditions
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Yep Root done on length ball swing in late
Winning the toss and batting a poor decision especially in the conditions
Agreed - with what Kohli said at the toss, he was relieved England didnt stick them in. Cook looking slightly more solid
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This team and selection committee are spineless
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Now Bairstow out didn't do much wrong playing the ball
If England had bowled Wonder how many wickets Anderson Would have got this morning
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On funny side, Does anyone think Bairstow (batting with helmet) looks like Undertaker (WWE).
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Cook throws it away, short and wide.
4 down and still 30 mins to go before lunch, buttler wont survive too long here either. England losing this match in 1 session
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Nuke this team. Just nuke it.
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match is lost. Kholi was right India have the momentum
an old fashioned blocker ?
where is the Compdog? :)
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Cook does all the hard work against the new ball change of bowling and he plays at and top edges a wide one.
Poor shot selection.
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Cook does all the hard work against the new ball change of bowling and he plays at and top edges a wide one.
Poor shot selection.
much as I think Root is a poor captain you cant blame him for batting
we cant bat for toffee, we got 2 spinner sin the team he cannot just put the oppo in all the time
its ridiculous.
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Any idea why stokes is charging down the wicket?? Its the first session of a flipping test match!
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This team needs 3 openers - none of them Jennings.
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Flat track bully goes after being dropped before lunch.
Cant imagine moeens going to knuckle down here either
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we are the makers of our own downfall
we need proper top order batsman otherwise this will continue. call me old fashioned but part of the job of the top 3 is to see off the new ball
has the game really moved on so much we get our middle order exposed to score off every delivery?
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This team needs 3 openers - none of them Jennings.
Problem is Jennings is cricitised for keep nicking the ball that goes across him so his mindset is leave the new ball and one swings in that he should have played
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Problem is Jennings is cricitise for keep nicking the ball so his mindset is leave the new ball and one swings in that he should have played
spot on there.....that is a very accurate description of what an opener thinks when not in form, or faced with bowling too good for him
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Stokes also wastes a review
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spot on there.....that is a very accurate description of what an opener thinks when not in form, or faced with bowling too good for him
Now where does that leave Jennings mindset
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Jennings clueless with that.
Cook wont survive too long here either. Can see England 4 down before lunch in these conditions
Can you see Moeen with a swashbuckling double ton please?
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Will we make it to 100?
On the plus side, our two best batsmen are finally at the crease.
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Problem is Jennings is cricitise for keep nicking the ball so his mindset is leave the new ball and one swings in that he should have played
The problem with Jennings is that he's not very good at hitting the ball with his bat.
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The problem with Jennings is that he's not very good at hitting the ball with his bat.
Well maybe he should think about playing the ball first and leaving it second
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Ive watched majority of this series. Bumrah hasnt sung it much, if at all. Ishant and shaminyes. Bumrah no.
That ball came back a mile, and out of no where!!
Yes I agree Jennings isnt good enough for test opening, but I wouldnt chastise him for that one as much as hes getting, he and England will know be watching for it.
Random series for England, stokes and buttler looked the most testnliek batsman last year, Ali and Curran this innings........
Anyway. England have battingnproblems. We need a 3.
Then root can bat 4, where he wants.
Bairstow can bat 5, where he wants.
Stokes can bat 6, where he wants.
And buttler can be a keeper batsman in the 7 spot, where they should be.
We need two openers mind.....
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In other news Ian Bell is out scoring England by himself.... albeit against Glamorgan.
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Anyway. England have battingnproblems. We need a 3.
Then root can bat 4, where he wants.
Bairstow can bat 5, where he wants.
Stokes can bat 6, where he wants.
And buttler can be a keeper batsman in the 7 spot, where they should be.
We need two openers mind.....
How about something like:
Hameed - I know he's out of form, but show faith and invest for the future.
Burns - better late than never
Moeen - if you can get a double hundred at 3 in the Championship you're doing something right
Root - where he wants to bat
YJB - where he should bat
Stokes - where he wants to bat
Buttler (keeper) - let him play as keeper, waste of a spot as a "specialist number 7"
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In other news Ian Bell is out scoring England by himself.... albeit against Glamorgan.
it is sheer stupidity to leave him out. proven class. way better than "youngsters". what is this new obsession with "too old"? in any other profession, Bell could sue them for being ageist.
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it is sheer stupidity to leave him out. proven class. way better than "youngsters". what is this new obsession with "too old"? in any other profession, Bell could sue them for being ageist.
he is 36. some of the aussies recently have had success recalling older players
I think someone like ....the left hander chris Rodgers did a job for the team until quite recently
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England waste there reviews and Rashid gets given out which wasn't
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This England team doesn't deserve a player like Sam Curran
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Well batted Sam!!
England forever!!
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^ 20 year old!
This kid deserves to be backed and nurtured.
Who's the other youngster (18?) who back-foot punches like Root? He is pretty good too!
England talent deserves better management and backing.
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This England team doesn't deserve a player like Sam Curran
He should never have been dropped
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England 246 all out probably would have settled for that when 86 for 6
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Why waste the new ball with broad, give it to the young kid
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Hameed
Burns
Bell ( purely as he has experience, form and we simply have nothing better)
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
The rest
Cook gets a break then can come back but just invest in this line up and tell thn top two Just To bat all day and care nothing for run rates etc.. leave that to 4/5/6
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How would Hameed be a genuine option? Poor kid hasn't been the same since he had his mitt smashed by Yadav in 2016. I don't think he scored a 100 in 3 years
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he is 36. some of the aussies recently have had success recalling older players
I think someone like ....the left hander chris Rodgers did a job for the team until quite recently
Adam Voges came to the party late as well and has a test average of 61 to show for it. Classy player as well.
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India unearthed someone really special in Bumrah. In days gone past, India had bowlers whom faded later in the day when the opposition could cash in. Kohli's India are considerably more fitter and athletic. Bumrah and Shami 88mph pretty much all the time whatever spell they bowl in. Even Ishant has improved got his pace up around 85mph
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How would Hameed be a genuine option? Poor kid hasn't been the same since he had his mitt smashed by Yadav in 2016. I don't think he scored a 100 in 3 years
Literally no one else looks capable or even willing to bat time .. he is the only one who has shown a willingness to dig in. In no way does he deserve a re call though really but its that desperate
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Just heard the stats on the debate
In 2 years cook is averaging 17 if you take his 2 double 100s out. Really has become a flat track bully. I bet he was hoping to rack up runs against a weak Indian bowling line up like hes done in the past
No other openers otherwise he doesnt deserve his spot in the team.
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Test side should be an entirely separate squad and that ought to be the mindset behind planning a future Test team. Give young guys a chance, let them grow into proper (Test) cricketers.
Cook will not drop himself from the side and Root will not step aside from the captaincy. Two tough calls need to be made by Strauss.
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Listened to the day on the radio and it sounded dire, just watching the highlights,and its worse
Ill say it again, just in case no one heard , cooks past it
And young curran is a little fighter, with a lot of talent
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Well done Sam Curran- sounds really English in his interviews!
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I think most people agree that if anyone else has stepped up as opener then Cook could be replaced, but as no-one has really done anything he's fairly safe. Even Root was only average 40-ish when opening, compared to 50-ish at 4.
Maybe it's time Root/Cook took the game by the horns and said they'll bat the first session each time.
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We need another opener, maybe burns and a number 3 so root moves to 4. That would mean someone who does not deserve to be dropped like Curran or Woakes or Ali probably would miss out but I don't see what else we could do
If cook stays despite his form I think he should then you could have
Cook
Burns
Bell
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Or maybe
Cook
Bell/Vince
That would make a space but we still need a number 3
So
Cook
Burns or bell
Vince
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
I can't see how we could dump both openers at once...,
If cook is really cooked...
Burns
Bell
Vince
Root
Bairstow
Stokes.
If you can bat 3 you can open hence Vince and bell could play there I think.
We have 4 number 6 batsmen at the moment and that just can't carry on.
Joe Clarke another who could bat 3 if you want a young player instead of Bell.
Personally I think a recall for Bell is 100 per cent what we should do.
Forget age....pick the best young or older player
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Joe Denley with another Ton today his 3rd of the county championship this season and in red ball cricket very happy to bat time. I know Im a massive Kent fan but worth a shout for the No3 spot slotting root back to 4
Afraid Im starting agree about Cook although with a bigger issue at the other end he has to stay for at least the winter but Jennings is just not cut for Test cricket just as Mark Stoneman wasnt. I guess its either Burns or Hameed but just dont see how you can pick him when his best score all year is something like 36
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I think most people agree that if anyone else has stepped up as opener then Cook could be replaced, but as no-one has really done anything he's fairly safe. Even Root was only average 40-ish when opening, compared to 50-ish at 4.
Maybe it's time Root/Cook took the game by the horns and said they'll bat the first session each time.
Dude playing for Surrey scored a hundred today.
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Joking, but Stoneman and Jennings will continue to score big in the Championship - has to be about more than weight of runs. Jennings I think was a bit unlucky today, awful shot (if you could call it that) but that ball shifted a mile to pin him, great delivery.
Do like Burns though, has to be worth a shot.
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Worth bearing in mind regarding Bell's supposed renaissance that his stats for the season are offset by his minnow bashing against Glamorgan whom are the worst side in division two.
Bell has 871 runs at 61 across the season, yet not bad. But he's got 425 off those against Glamorgan out only once. Against the other sides he's averaging a rather modest 34. So he's hardly the overwhelming choice to address the batting woes.
I don't see how Root going down to 4 would improve us. Root and Bairstow are the two best batsmen by a country mile. The side should be built around them batting at 3 and 4.
For the Oval I'd like to see
Burns
Vince
Root
Bairstow
Moeen
Stokes
Buttler
Curran
Woakes
Rashid
Anderson
Stokes should be ok to bowl so we maintain four fast bowler. Moeen has 30 first hundreds give him the responsibility to bat 5. Buttler shouldn't be above 7 and Stokes averages nearly 40 at 6. Fresh openers, Burns averages mid 40s it's his home ground no brainer. Vince can come in and add to impetus ala Sehwag/Warner.
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I think India's bowling was very good..let's give them some credit...wasn't all down to bad batting!
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England don't generally like to make big changes during a series nowadays but if Jennings fails second innings and they don't see him being the opener in the winter then I'd like Burns to come in for the last test, give him a home test (nationally and his home ground at county) before dumping him into the thick of it on Sri Lankan sandpits.
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Get Butler open the innings with Cook. He can be 'the Sehwag' for England with his clarity and see ball hit ball approach. Aggressive approach can put any bowling attack under pressure.
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Get Butler open the innings with Cook. He can be 'the Sehwag' for England with his clarity and see ball hit ball approach. Aggressive approach can put any bowling attack under pressure.
Combined with his discs lined ability not to chase wide ones?
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Combined with his discs lined ability not to chase wide ones?
Obviously he will need to be more selective. There is too much emphasis on technique, while most important thing is clarity of mind and keeping it simple. Over thinking leads to dismissals like Jennings and Root. Sehwag' had a minimal footwork. Hardly anyone gave him a chance to succeed at Test level, let alone as an opener. Great hand eye coordination, still head, clutter free mind and positive approach despite minimal footwork was key to his success. Butler has identical attributes. He has shown with couple of centuries since his come back. He must have also tackled the second new ball at the number he comes in. I personally don't see a harm going with this positive approach as if he clicks England will end up scoring 350 in a day more often than not. England T20 and one day setup has this mentality since past couple of years,hence the success. With such long batting lineup even in tests they can afford to take this aggressive approach.
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It's almost like people haven't been paying attention.
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Obviously he will need to be more selective. There is too much emphasis on technique, while most important thing is clarity of mind and keeping it simple. Over thinking leads to dismissals like Jennings and Root. Sehwag' had a minimal footwork. Hardly anyone gave him a chance to succeed at Test level, let alone as an opener. Great hand eye coordination, still head, clutter free mind and positive approach despite minimal footwork was key to his success. Butler has identical attributes. He has shown with couple of centuries since his come back. He must have also tackled the second new ball at the number he comes in. I personally don't see a harm going with this positive approach as if he clicks England will end up scoring 350 in a day more often than not. England T20 and one day setup has this mentality since past couple of years,hence the success. With such long batting lineup even in tests they can afford to take this aggressive approach.
India had Dravid and Tendulkar and Laxman and Dhoni to fall back on mind if Sehwag failed. He was a great player, but crucially part of an even better team with probably the best batting line up of all time. I'm not sure Buttler could be allowed to free his mind in quite the same way that Sehwag was allowed to.
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It's almost like people haven't been paying attention.
England collapsed under the weight of Andy Flower's ego from being the indisputable best test team in the world between 2010 to 2012 (albeit against limited competition) to being an absolute laughing stock in the 2013/14 Ashes.
and here's the thing, despite having a handful of good players (Anderson in particular), and despite playing some of the weakest opposition in living memory, they've never actually recovered. They're default position is still to be just as incomprehensibly awful as they were down under in 13/14.
There have been the occasional brief flashes of competence, mostly against South Africa for some reason, but the normal service of the past 5 years has actually been of crushing incompetence on a level not seen since the 1980s, and possibly ever. This is without doubt, far and away the weakest England test team I have ever seen, and I watched all through the 90s. The sad thing is, they've (No Swearing Please) with the domestic set-up to such an extent, and repeatedly promoted failing coaches into positions of increased responsibility, that we don't currently look capable of ever producing a test quality cricketer ever again. Sam Curran is probably the best prospect and he's half Zimbabwean and has only been tested in home conditions anyway.
But on the bright side, we're good at ODIs, the one format that hardly anyone cares about and will probably soon be abandoned.
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India had Dravid and Tendulkar and Laxman and Dhoni to fall back on mind if Sehwag failed. He was a great player, but crucially part of an even better team with probably the best batting line up of all time. I'm not sure Buttler could be allowed to free his mind in quite the same way that Sehwag was allowed to.
India had Tendulkar, Dravid and Laxman much before Sehwag' started to open. India whatever success outside subcontinent started when Sehwag' and Gambhir clicked as an opener and started giving India a positive start more often than not. Before them, Indian opening was all about finding a scapegoat to face the music, be it Nayan Mongia, Parthiv Patel etc. England has more than decent batting lineup which goes way down. They need to trust their ability and play positive. I appreciate Kohli for showing guts and playing with only 5 specialist batsmen. Except him none of the rest have shown sign of consistency so far. With this long tail, once India is 6 down rest 4 comes off real cheap. England is gifted with multitude of genuine all-rounders. They should learn from Butler and Sam Curran's positive approach when it comes to batting.
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On a different note, I was bit surprised by India's tactics against Sam Curran. They kept bowling at him from over the wicket. Looking at his technique he likes to keep himself leg side to the ball and capitalize on any width outside off,somewhat similar to Bairstow. Would love to see Ishant and rest from around the wicket taking the ball away from him, much like they have been doing to Cook and Jennings.
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On a different note, I was bit surprised by India's tactics against Sam Curran. They kept bowling at him from over the wicket. Looking at his technique he likes to keep himself leg side to the ball and capitalize on any width outside off,somewhat similar to Bairstow. Would love to see Ishant and rest from around the wicket taking the ball away from him, much like they have been doing to Cook and Jennings.
Bowl at the stumps and the batsman has to play at it, combine this with movement away and you might get a nick. Doesn't really matter which side of the stumps you bowl. The only advantage to going round the wicket to a LHB is that you're less likely to get an lbw denied for the ball pitching outside leg.
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Bowl at the stumps and the batsman has to play at it, combine this with movement away and you might get a nick. Doesn't really matter which side of the stumps you bowl. The only advantage to going round the wicket to a LHB is that you're less likely to get an lbw denied for the ball pitching outside leg.
Not the same thing, over the wicket you can't target the stumps with the bowl going across and it is much comfortable angle for left handers to leave the ball. Agressive left handers like Curran and De cock pounce even on slightest of width from over the wicket.
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Not the same thing, over the wicket you can't target the stumps with the bowl going across and it is much comfortable angle for left handers to leave the ball. Agressive left handers like Curran and De cock pounce even on slightest of width from over the wicket.
The only difference between a bowler bowling over the wicket vs round the wicket is where the ball can pitch for lbw - over the wicket the ball is more likely to pitch outside leg, round the wicket the ball is more likely to hit the pad outside off. There is no other difference. There is no difference in angle - its just a trick of the camera.
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There is no difference in angle - its just a trick of the camera.
I can't tell if you're being serious or not....
Round the wicket, if you're angling it in and then getting it to go away (in the way that Ishant is at the moment) it's far more difficult than someone being over the wicket and swinging it away. As it's a change in angle rather than a continuation / exaggeration of the angle the ball is already travelling at.
You appreciate it if there's a Left Arm quick turning you inside out from round the wicket!
Also, so spinners going round or over the wicket makes no difference? Or if a bowler is left or right arm? Or wide of the crease vs close to the stumps? I could go on, but I really can't be bothered to waste my time.
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I can't tell if you're being serious or not....
Round the wicket, if you're angling it in and then getting it to go away (in the way that Ishant is at the moment) it's far more difficult than someone being over the wicket and swinging it away. As it's a change in angle rather than a continuation / exaggeration of the angle the ball is already travelling at.
You appreciate it if there's a Left Arm quick turning you inside out from round the wicket!
Also, so spinners going round or over the wicket makes no difference? Or if a bowler is left or right arm? Or wide of the crease vs close to the stumps? I could go on, but I really can't be bothered to waste my time.
I'm being completely and totally serious. "Angle" is just a myth. Round the wicket bowlers do not "angle it in". Over the wicket bowlers do not "angle it across". This is entirely a trick of the camera. If the camera was placed behind the bowlers arm, then you would see that there is no difference in the path the ball travels between the bowlers hand and the batsmen - you're being fooled by the placement of the camera relative to the release point into thinking you are seeing something that isn't actually happening.
If I showed you footage where we edited out the umpire and the bowlers end stumps, and placed the camera behind the bowler's arm, then you would be unable to tell me whether the bowler was bowling round the wicket or over the wicket - because THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.
Don't worry - its a very, very common misunderstanding.
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I'm being completely and totally serious. "Angle" is just a myth. Round the wicket bowlers do not "angle it in". Over the wicket bowlers do not "angle it across". This is entirely a trick of the camera. If the camera was placed behind the bowlers arm, then you would see that there is no difference in the path the ball travels between the bowlers hand and the batsmen - you're being fooled by the placement of the camera relative to the release point into thinking you are seeing something that isn't actually happening.
If I showed you footage where we edited out the umpire and the bowlers end stumps, and placed the camera behind the bowler's arm, then you would be unable to tell me whether the bowler was bowling round the wicket or over the wicket - because THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.
Don't worry - its a very, very common misunderstanding.
Interesting concept, though I totally disagree...
While you claim that you wouldn't be able to tell if you were bowling over or round the wicket, I think subtle changes of angle does make a difference. As a fellow slow bowler I thought you'd have understood this. If the ball isn't turning much subtle changes like changing pace and where on the crease you bowl from can make all the difference.
To disprove this theory I propose you bowl 4 "up and down" deliveries, not aiming to "do anything" with the ball, pitching the exact same place - say on a good length in line with middle stump.
Bowl 2 deliveries over the wicket and 2 deliveries round the wicket. One from wide of the crease and close to the stumps.
Assuming all the balls pitch and carry on straight, if your theory were correct all 4 would end up in the same place. However in reality they wont, will they?
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If you think that a ball can be bowled at "an angle", the question you have to ask yourself, is an angle compared to what?
Compared to the camera angle? So what? Why would that affect the batsman?
Compared to the line between the stumps? So what? Why would that affect the batsman (other than for lbws, as I've already mentioned)?
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Don't worry - its a very, very common misunderstanding.
Wow. That's patronising.
Do teach me more, oh mighty wise oak.
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It's an angle relative to the batsman, which leads to a deception of where the ball will eventually end up.
It's very simple.
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Interesting concept, though I totally disagree...
While you claim that you wouldn't be able to tell if you were bowling over or round the wicket, I think subtle changes of angle does make a difference. As a fellow slow bowler I thought you'd have understood this. If the ball isn't turning much subtle changes like changing pace and where on the crease you bowl from can make all the difference.
Changing angle in the delivery stride - ie unpredictably coming close or going wide of the stumps - is a valid tactic, because the batsman doesn't have time to change his set-up, so you are creating an angle between the direction of his set-up and the direction the ball will be coming from.
But switching from over to round the wicket does not achieve a change of angle relative to the set-up of the batsman, because the batsman is told by the umpire that you are switching sides, and thus (assuming he is over the age of 10 and vaguely knows what he's doing) switches his alignment to match.
"To disprove this theory I propose you bowl 4 "up and down" deliveries, not aiming to "do anything" with the ball, pitching the exact same place - say on a good length in line with middle stump.
Bowl 2 deliveries over the wicket and 2 deliveries round the wicket. One from wide of the crease and close to the stumps.
Assuming all the balls pitch and carry on straight, if your theory were correct all 4 would end up in the same place. However in reality they wont, will they?"
On the contrary, if I bowl 4 straight balls on the line of middle stump, then they will all hit middle stump by definition, because that's what "on the line of middle stump" means. I could bowl the ball from backward point, that fact would still be true.
What you mean is they wouldn't pitch on the line of middle stump as seen by the umpire. But that is only relevant for lbw decisions. It doesn't actually factor into how the batsman plays the ball at all.
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Re angle......look at release points of over the wicket vs round the wicket for the same bowler. The hawkeye stuff with the coloured dots etc . There's literally 1-3ft variation in release point.
I think ol Pythagoras needs a new protractor.
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It's an angle relative to the batsman, which leads to a deception of where the ball will eventually end up.
It's very simple.
What do you mean "relative to the batsman"? A batsman is not a vector. This is a meaningless statement.
If you mean "relative to the alignment of the batsman's stance", then that is obviously false, because a batsman will alter the alignment of his stance depending on which side of the wicket the bowler is bowling from. This is about as basic as knowing which end of the bat to hold.
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Re angle......look at release points of over the wicket vs round the wicket for the same bowler. The hawkeye stuff with the coloured dots etc . There's literally 1-3ft variation in release point.
I think ol Pythagoras needs a new protractor.
So what? A change in release point does not imply a change in angle. A change in angle relative to WHAT anyway?
There is a huge change in release point from the same bowler bowling at Trent Bridge and at Edgbaston - about 50 miles. Do you think that this also constitutes a change in angle?
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What do you mean "relative to the batsman"? A batsman is not a vector. This is a meaningless statement.
If you mean "relative to the alignment of the batsman's stance", then that is obviously false, because a batsman will alter the alignment of his stance depending on which side of the wicket the bowler is bowling from. This is about as basic as knowing which end of the bat to hold.
I think I sort of get what you're saying, that ultimately a batsman lines himself up with the ball, so in a way it's only relevant where it comes from for lbw decisions. Nevertheless, I've been triggered a few times and am conscious of lbw, especially against slower bowlers, so it factors into my thinking, and possibly other batsman's thinking as well. For instance a leggie bowling at me from round the wicket, I'm a RHB, I know if I bat off leg, anything to my left I can kick away if I want to.
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This is about as basic as knowing which end of the bat to hold.
It's the fat end, isn't it? Not the skinny one.
I'm off to bang some nails into the wall with my forehead.
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Wow. That's patronising.
Do teach me more, oh mighty wise oak.
I'm sorry if you found it insulting, but perhaps have a look at the patronising content of your previous post before you start playing the victim card. I'd hate for you to "waste your time" discussing this.
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I think I sort of get what you're saying, that ultimately a batsman lines himself up with the ball, so in a way it's only relevant where it comes from for lbw decisions. Nevertheless, I've been triggered a few times and am conscious of lbw, especially against slower bowlers, so it factors into my thinking, and possibly other batsman's thinking as well. For instance a leggie bowling at me from round the wicket, I'm a RHB, I know if I bat off leg, anything to my left I can kick away if I want to.
Yes - this is basically what I'm saying. As I said, round the wicket vs over the wicket is relevant for lbw decisions, the consideration of which may or may not affect the way you play, particularly against spinners who are getting big turn on the ball.
But that's a specific set of circumstances. We were talking about seam bowlers, and my point was that assuming the batsman lines himself up with the bowler (which really should be a given for a professional batsman), then there is no intrinsic "angle" that the bowler bowls at.
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Okay, having read your subsequent reply to my idea @SLA I conclude you are correct that I didn't explain clearly enough. In my "experiment" I did mean the middle stump line "as seen by the umpire" or "in line with the stumps at the other end".
While this is an interesting debate that could go on for ages, I'm going to simply agree to disagree with you. I still maintain that you are changing the angle when coming round the wicket compared to over, as despite the batsman changing his alignment the angles will not be exactly the same.
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Kohli reaches 6000 test runs with a streaky edge drive to third man. Decent player this chap
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So what? A change in release point does not imply a change in angle. A change in angle relative to WHAT anyway?
There is a huge change in release point from the same bowler bowling at Trent Bridge and at Edgbaston - about 50 miles. Do you think that this also constitutes a change in angle?
Relative to what ? Well , relative to the other release point.
As a batsman you can only adjust your angle in stance so much . As a batsman changes angle of stance ,to accommodate the change in angle of the bowler , the angle of the batsmans stance relative to the angle of the stumps changes too. Ie / a batsman opens his stance to a left arm over bowler.....he is now relatively squarer on to the stumps. Rhe angle of the wooden thing he is trying to protect has changed , it it more exposed or less exposed compared to when he is side on in his stance.
Another thing is the wider on the crease a bowler goes the more a batsman cannot cover the change in angle without dramatically changing their stance , again , you can only do so much of this before you morph into shiv chanderpaul and suddenly need to modify your whole technique to compemsate.
I'll take the wisdom of 100s of thousands of cricketers for 100s of years over your 'revolutionary' point of view.
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I can see what you're saying, still don't agree, but I *think* I know what you're getting at.
Lets all agree to disagree, my point was more along the fact that a ball is more difficult to face if it changes direction (going from right t left in your perception, then the other) rather than if the ball is already going from right to left in your vision, but the movement (swing, seam, whatever) exaggerates that direction.
Kiss and make up? :D
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Instead of kiss and make up , how about we give SLA the first annual Felix Tito award ?
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Desperate times when jennings is being handed the ball
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Rumor is Bairstow is going to share the second new ball with Anderson
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Desperate times when jennings is being handed the ball
Hand me my noose
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Relative to what ? Well , relative to the other release point.
As a batsman you can only adjust your angle in stance so much . As a batsman changes angle of stance ,to accommodate the change in angle of the bowler , the angle of the batsmans stance relative to the angle of the stumps changes too. Ie / a batsman opens his stance to a left arm over bowler.....he is now relatively squarer on to the stumps. Rhe angle of the wooden thing he is trying to protect has changed , it it more exposed or less exposed compared to when he is side on in his stance.
Another thing is the wider on the crease a bowler goes the more a batsman cannot cover the change in angle without dramatically changing their stance , again , you can only do so much of this before you morph into shiv chanderpaul and suddenly need to modify your whole technique to compemsate.
I'll take the wisdom of 100s of thousands of cricketers for 100s of years over your 'revolutionary' point of view.
Its not really revolutionary, its just taking the time to actually think through the logic and the geometry rather than just swallowing what you are told unthinkingly. Batsmen seem perfectly able to change the angle of their batting stance by 180 degrees at the end of each over, so I don't see why changing it by 5 degrees or so every time the bowler switches from over to round the wicket should be even remotely challenging - and 5-10 degrees isn't going to make much difference to the angle of the stumps behind you.
Cricket, like many sports, has a lot of "well-known facts" that are actually baseless myths that are simply repeated from one player to the next, like "never run on a misfield" or "never play against the spin", "left-handers are always strong square of the wicket", or "the best batsman should always bat at 3".
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Kohli reaches 6000 test runs with a streaky edge drive to third man. Decent player this chap
Rubbish player! can't play the moving ball, can't bat in english conditions with that technique
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Its not really revolutionary, its just taking the time to actually think through the logic and the geometry rather than just swallowing what you are told unthinkingly. Batsmen seem perfectly able to change the angle of their batting stance by 180 degrees at the end of each over, so I don't see why changing it by 5 degrees or so every time the bowler switches from over to round the wicket should be even remotely challenging - and 5-10 degrees isn't going to make much difference to the angle of the stumps behind you.
Cricket, like many sports, has a lot of "well-known facts" that are actually baseless myths that are simply repeated from one player to the next, like "never run on a misfield" or "never play against the spin", "left-handers are always strong square of the wicket", or "the best batsman should always bat at 3".
Wow.
Its very disingenuous to say a batsman changes angle of stance by 180 degrees each over.....relative to all other factors the change in angle is only as different as the chamge between bowlers arm, over/round the wicket, release point etc. The stumps , crease marks etc are mirrored ar both ends.
Im not talking about old wives tales or cricket folk wisdom here , I'm talking plain common sense. You are just trting to be a devils advocate for the sake of controversy or being disagreeable.
Im giving up on this , as the others have , and as i should have already .
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Its not really revolutionary, its just taking the time to actually think through the logic and the geometry rather than just swallowing what you are told unthinkingly. Batsmen seem perfectly able to change the angle of their batting stance by 180 degrees at the end of each over, so I don't see why changing it by 5 degrees or so every time the bowler switches from over to round the wicket should be even remotely challenging - and 5-10 degrees isn't going to make much difference to the angle of the stumps behind you.
Cricket, like many sports, has a lot of "well-known facts" that are actually baseless myths that are simply repeated from one player to the next, like "never run on a misfield" or "never play against the spin", "left-handers are always strong square of the wicket", or "the best batsman should always bat at 3".
Oh , just one last thing before i retire from this subject, since you were being pedantic re orhers comments.
You stated earlier that angles dont change . Now you state a change of angle of 5% or whatever shouldnt make a difference.
Its either no change or its 5%....it cant be both.
While we are talking whether 5% change in angle is insignificant.....ever seen a protractor used , overlayed on replays of balls from spinners that 'turn square'. The commentators always would remark how surprised they were that the degree of movement/spin was only 5-7% etc ....yet the ball spun hard and missed the bat etc.
Im now retiring from this debate.
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Wow.
Its very disingenuous to say a batsman changes angle of stance by 180 degrees each over.....relative to all other factors the change in angle is only as different as the chamge between bowlers arm, over/round the wicket, release point etc. The stumps , crease marks etc are mirrored ar both ends.
Im not talking about old wives tales or cricket folk wisdom here , I'm talking plain common sense. You are just trting to be a devils advocate for the sake of controversy or being disagreeable.
Im giving up on this , as the others have , and as i should have already .
It was always thought of as "common sense" that the world was flat. "Common sense" is very often completely wrong.
I'm not playing devils advocate, I'm just explained to everyone here why something that many people believe about cricket is actually wrong. Most people have found this an interesting discussion and have at least partly understood the point I'm making. Some people have agreed to disagree, but no-one has actually managed to find a hole in my explanation - because there isn't one.
it is a difficult concept to get your head around. Even though I know for a fact that there is no change in angle between going over and going around the wicket, I still sometimes catch myself thinking "I'll angle this across him", before reminding myself that that is nonsense.
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Oh , just one last thing before i retire from this subject, since you were being pedantic re orhers comments.
You stated earlier that angles dont change . Now you state a change of angle of 5% or whatever shouldnt make a difference.
Its either no change or its 5%....it cant be both.
While we are talking whether 5% change in angle is insignificant.....ever seen a protractor used , overlayed on replays of balls from spinners that 'turn square'. The commentators always would remark how surprised they were that the degree of movement/spin was only 5-7% etc ....yet the ball spun hard and missed the bat etc.
Im now retiring from this debate.
You're conflating two different things. Changing from round the wicket to over the wicket and vice versa does not change in angle between the path of the ball and the alignment of batsman, because any competent batsman changes his alignment to match where the bowler is going to be.
But there is, of course, a small change in angle relative to the alignment of the crease lines and the stumps. But this is small and irrelevant for anything other than lbw decisions. If you know your geometric calculus it;s straightforward to calculate the effective change in cross-section of the stumps by calculating the cross product between the vector width of the stumps and the path of the ball - I'm not going to do the maths but the answer is that a 5 degree change in angle results in a negligible change in cross-section.
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You're conflating two different things. Changing from round the wicket to over the wicket and vice versa does not change in angle between the path of the ball and the alignment of batsman, because any competent batsman changes his alignment to match where the bowler is going to be.
But there is, of course, a small change in angle relative to the alignment of the crease lines and the stumps. But this is small and irrelevant for anything other than lbw decisions. If you know your geometric calculus it;s straightforward to calculate the effective change in cross-section of the stumps by calculating the cross product between the vector width of the stumps and the path of the ball - I'm not going to do the maths but the answer is that a 5 degree change in angle results in a negligible change in cross-section.
Maths or it's not true...
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Anyhoo - back to the Test Match............ anyone think we might be in for a long day in the field?
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With diagrams
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Anyhoo - back to the Test Match............ anyone think we might be in for a long day in the field?
Yes, these two going very well.
Would Foakes have taken that nick?
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You're conflating two different things. Changing from round the wicket to over the wicket and vice versa does not change in angle between the path of the ball and the alignment of batsman, because any competent batsman changes his alignment to match where the bowler is going to be.
But there is, of course, a small change in angle relative to the alignment of the crease lines and the stumps. But this is small and irrelevant for anything other than lbw decisions. If you know your geometric calculus it;s straightforward to calculate the effective change in cross-section of the stumps by calculating the cross product between the vector width of the stumps and the path of the ball - I'm not going to do the maths but the answer is that a 5 degree change in angle results in a negligible change in cross-section.
Does this get scribbled on the tactics board at your anonymous Cambridgeshire club where no one owns a bat?
More tripe
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Nice change of angle from Curran there :D
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If you know your geometric calculus
Oh, please tell me more about 'geometric calculus'...
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Does this get scribbled on the tactics board at your anonymous Cambridgeshire club where no one owns a bat?
More tripe
lol. Over your head, so you just instinctively dismiss it as tripe. How incredibly predictable.
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Oh, please tell me more about 'geometric calculus'...
I think that would be off-topic. If you're genuinely interested, Why don't you open a vector calculus thread and I'll answer any question you have on the topic.
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^ Powerporint graphics/diagrams will help explain your point(s) better. Save the slides as jpegs and upload them.
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On the other hand, that Curran kid is amazing!
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On the other hand, that Curran kid is amazing!
One of my favourite tweets of the test match.... the Sam Curran bowling face.....
https://twitter.com/Cricket_Ali/status/1035477870137802752?s=19
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I think that would be off-topic. If you're genuinely interested, Why don't you open a vector calculus thread and I'll answer any question you have on the topic.
As much as I'd be amused reading you try explain why you need to use calculus to solve a simple trig problem, it might be a bit off piste even for CBF!
'mon the all-rounders, great breakthrough by Curran and Stokes gets one too
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Why can't England find a number 3 who bats like Punjara
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Why is Rashid in the team again?
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Why is Rashid in the team again?
Because there's no-one better? (Maybe Jack Leach at a push?)
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Because there's no-one better? (Maybe Jack Leach at a push?)
I think my point is we've turned to Moeen as the spinner rather than Rashid for him to then take a wicket
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I think my point is we've turned to Moeen as the spinner rather than Rashid for him to then take a wicket
Rashid had a couple of overs earlier against the right handers, but I would assume they've brought Moeen on now because Pant is left handed.
I imagine Rashid and Leach will fight it out for the main spinner's sport in Sri Lanka, with Moeen as the 2nd spinner.
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Good old Moeen
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I just spat my coffee out from that Ashwin shot. Oh God.
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Looks like it could be a one innings game this - Can anyone in Englands Top six actual bat a day and not try to smash cover off anything thats wide if the Stumps. Oh and find a way of getting Kohli before he gets in
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Ali with a 5fer go on Mo always one of the most likeable players to wear an England shirt
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Mo 5 wickets for 53 runs excellent
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Tell me again how Adil Rashid is better than Moeen
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is it a co incidence Mo bowls like every great spinner thru the years when he is the second spinner in the side and bowls like a drain when there is only 1 spinner...?
cricket the say..............is all in the mind :)
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is it a co incidence Mo bowls like every great spinner thru the years when he is the second spinner in the side and bowls like a drain when there is only 1 spinner...?
cricket the say..............is all in the mind :)
Very true, if only he could hold down a place in the top order on merit then it would solve so many problems
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Fear the beard Moeen.
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Can i get a hello from all the guys here who thought Mo was a liability on team england?
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Very true, if only he could hold down a place in the top order on merit then it would solve so many problems
it most certainly would. he does not play short pitched bowling very well thou so would struggle batting top 5 every match
against half the teams in world cricket he would be fine thou.
we have ALOT of middle order players. :)
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Rubbish player! can't play the moving ball, can't bat in english conditions with that technique
I guess you're talking about 2014 series. Might have a bad technique but still the highest scorer of runs in this series. English team need to take catches of him before this rubbish player scores runs in the 2nd innings :)
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Cracking innings that by Pujara.
Now will Jennings survive?
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Anyone notice Cook wearing roots whites?
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Anyone notice Cook wearing roots whites?
Yes. Just read it on Cricinfo.
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Sam Curran has MA on his sleeve while batting yesterday too!
Assume there mo whites
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I said that to my wife, she rolled her eyes!! 😂😂
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Pujara keeps his bat down.
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Flat track bully cook goes. Another failure. Wouldve backed him to get a few runs today, pitch looks flat
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Cook fails again 24-1
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Interesting to send Moeen in at 3, joe root hiding?
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Interesting to send Moeen in at 3, joe root hiding?
England innovating with a day watchman now.
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Not a bad gamble Moeen is ave 50 for Worcester
Hope he doesn't get a short one
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England innovating with a day watchman now.
Reckon that stat the Aussies has was right. Moeen plays and missed the most out of any cricketer.
Though Jennings looks more of a day watchman
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What a pointless experiment that was
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What a pointless experiment that was
Yep, all experiments are deemed pointless after the one result....... dont enter the world of science please pal.
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Rahul pretty average with the bat but outstanding in the slips
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Mo out that didn't work
And it looks as if Kholi is in Roots ear for dropping down the order.
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Sending Moeen was an idiotic move. The likes of Ishant and Bumrah have feasted on lefties all series. Root isn't a leader of men, almost a backseat driver
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I'm fine with Moeen batting at 3 for a few games but not like this. They've brought him back into the team at 7 and then hung him out to dry halfway through a test match.
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Unlucky Jennings battled well but that ball kept low.
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I'm fine with Moeen batting at 3 for a few games but not like this. They've brought him back into the team at 7 and then hung him out to dry halfway through a test match.
Not true According to commentators Moeen wanted to bat where he bats for Worcestershire at number 3.
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Not true According to commentators Moeen wanted to bat where he bats for Worcestershire at number 3.
Yes Moeen wants to bat higher but the management should let him know that he's going to be playing in the top order instead of shoving him up and down in the middle of a test match. He's been a victim of his own versatility and lack of ego to some extent because he finds himself being shoved into all different kinds of roles. He's batted everywhere from 1 to 9 for England, one day he's the second spinner, then he's the first choice spinner, then he's the lone spinner having to play in Australia when he's nowhere near fit enough to bowl.
If they're going to play him higher in the order then they need to do it for the rest of the series, otherwise yes they've totally sold him up the river today.
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Uh oh
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What an awful shot from bairstow given the situation
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Bairstow out first ball India now be favourites to win.
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Theres no way you can be a number 4 with bairstows technique - showing all the stumps.
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What a crap run out, no need to run
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Root hesitates on the run and hesitation gets him out.
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What an awful shot from bairstow given the situation
Wonder if taking the wicket keeping gloves off Bairstow as affected his batting
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Kohli is a poor captain
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Kohli is a poor captain
Both captains are poor this series.
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With Englads lead and India not great at chasing scores over 200 to win batting fourth it's game on
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With Englads lead and India not great at chasing scores over 200 to win batting fourth it's game on
Game is definitely ON! I would say England is favorite. Kohli looks frustrated toward the end.
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Why can't England find a number 3 who bats like Punjara
Cook can be the perfect number 3 for England. It will give him a breather from opening and revive his form. With this current line up, I would go for the following order:
1.Jennings
2. Butler
3. Cook
4. Root
5.Stokes
6. Bairstow
7. Ali
8. Curran
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Great article, again, by George Dobell on Cricinfo. Talking about instability on and off the field for England. Coaches looking at other jobs, Root demanding to bat at four.
We seem to hold the number 3 slot as the gamechanger, citing Ricky Ponting as the example. In England it's different, the ball's still wobbling, swinging and requires technique to bat at 3. I don't get the demand for Bairstow, Buttler, to move up, or Roy to come in, just because they do so in white ball cricket. Totally different game...
I like the idea of three openers, but I also like the idea of Moeen Ali batting at 3 as he does for his county. Dobell suggests if he'd had the run up to the test, rather than hours, to prepare, he'd have fared better.
Play Root at 4. Put Bairstow at seven. Gilchrist scored double figure centuries, averaged nearly fifty from there. Bairstow has the ability to do similar. For the next test and moving forward, I'd try
1. Cook (although I'd give him the winter off)
2. Burns
3. Ali
4. Root
5. Stokes (I'd use him more as a batsman than all rounder. Still able to change the game with the ball if needed, but I'd tell him to focus on big runs from a regular five slot)
6. Buttler (i don't like a specialist bat at 7, seems like a wasted position. Being at 6 allows for four bowlers, plus you have Stokes and Ali to fall back on if needed)
7. Bairstow (he plays better when keeping and is confident here. Tell him its his slot, tell him to score big runs and tell him he's the keeper)
8. Curran
9. Rashid
10. Broad
11. Anderson
Woakes i wouldn't bat higher than eight as and when he's brought back in. Broad and Anderson don't have long left and i see him as a replacement long term. Curran is here to stay but workload needs managing. Mo gets his role as second spinner, but is told to focus on being a top order batsman for England, which is what he's always wanted.
Although I'd give Cook the winter off I haven't a clue who I'd bring in!!
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Cook at 3 is one of the better team selections posted on here
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Great article, again, by George Dobell on Cricinfo. Talking about instability on and off the field for England. Coaches looking at other jobs, Root demanding to bat at four.
We seem to hold the number 3 slot as the gamechanger, citing Ricky Ponting as the example. In England it's different, the ball's still wobbling, swinging and requires technique to bat at 3. I don't get the demand for Bairstow, Buttler, to move up, or Roy to come in, just because they do so in white ball cricket. Totally different game...
I like the idea of three openers, but I also like the idea of Moeen Ali batting at 3 as he does for his county. Dobell suggests if he'd had the run up to the test, rather than hours, to prepare, he'd have fared better.
Play Root at 4. Put Bairstow at seven. Gilchrist scored double figure centuries, averaged nearly fifty from there. Bairstow has the ability to do similar. For the next test and moving forward, I'd try
1. Cook (although I'd give him the winter off)
2. Burns
3. Ali
4. Root
5. Stokes (I'd use him more as a batsman than all rounder. Still able to change the game with the ball if needed, but I'd tell him to focus on big runs from a regular five slot)
6. Buttler (i don't like a specialist bat at 7, seems like a wasted position. Being at 6 allows for four bowlers, plus you have Stokes and Ali to fall back on if needed)
7. Bairstow (he plays better when keeping and is confident here. Tell him its his slot, tell him to score big runs and tell him he's the keeper)
8. Curran
9. Rashid
10. Broad
11. Anderson
Woakes i wouldn't bat higher than eight as and when he's brought back in. Broad and Anderson don't have long left and i see him as a replacement long term. Curran is here to stay but workload needs managing. Mo gets his role as second spinner, but is told to focus on being a top order batsman for England, which is what he's always wanted.
Although I'd give Cook the winter off I haven't a clue who I'd bring in!!
Good post wouldn't have Ali at 3 though the likes of Starc will bounce him out.
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Certainly at least one newspaper seem to be thinking all is not well in the England camp and some frank views have been aired.
root won't be batting anywhere but 4 from now on regardless of what anyone says and Bairstow unsettled and unhappy no o e has assured him the gloves are coming back after this match.
As far as Root goes I think he should bat 3 but he is captain and lots on his plate. We prob should bat 4 , clearly he is not happy anywhere else.
Keeping wise I reckon England have now changed this for long term, and it might be what they wanted as soon as butler was recalled this summer
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I don't see that Ali is either good enough against the moving ball around off stump nor against the short ball to bat at 3 at international level. The only one that stand out at the moment is Bell who would be an ideal short term option to allow the focus to be on finding am opening partnership that works. From 4 down we have plenty of options but we just can't get the top 3 right at the moment
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Is it not possible to just talk about a Test match without playing at being chairman of the selectors?
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Run out costs Sam Curran his second fifty of the Match. Only way India looked like getting him.
He seems to be there kryptonite.
.
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246 to win , going to be interesting chase, by no means easy but gettable.
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Here's a stat England have lost there last 24 reviews
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Broad is going to be the key, much harder to tackle when the pitch is slightly up and down and worn. His hit the deck style of bowling will threaten the stumps more often than not. Stokes is somewhat similar though not sure if he will bowl a lot.
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Broad is going to be the key, much harder to tackle when the pitch is slightly up and down and worn. His hit the deck style of bowling will threaten the stumps more often than not. Stokes is somewhat similar though not sure if he will bowl a lot.
Got it right a fired up Broad gets the first one ball kept low
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2 down, that might be the game
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Good catch by Stokes Jimmy turned Darwin round with that one
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How is that an inside edge! Kohli a lucky boy!
As a side note Bairstow does not look a happy bunny out on the boundary.
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Nasser Hussain makes a lot of sense. I am sure there is a huge respect for him in English dressing room. I have observed some of his tactical points while commentating being implemented on the field a while later. Not sure that is a mere coincidence or his commentary is closely heard in the dressing room.
I also suspect he managed to get into Kohli's brain with respect to selection of Kuldeep in the test squad and not selecting Jadeja for this match by keep asking Kohli if this might be his first ever unchanged eleven. Surprised he is not part of England dressing room setup.
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Another interesting little phase. England is waiting now for the ball to start reversing to bring Stokes and Broad back.
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Not a test match spinner
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Kohli out for another 50, what a splendid series he is having. Way above the rest from both the sides.
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EspnCricInfo is funny sometimes
Ali to Kohli, OUT, spinning in and taking the glove, this lobs to short leg and Cook snatches the ball gleefully this time! Kohli reviews, does he think it came off the forearm...? Well, whatever he thinks, Snicko says it brushed the glove before flicking the pad, and Kohli has to go! That's the breakthrough England would have sold their grandmother for, and Moeen has got it!
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This could be over quickly if Pant plays his natural game
However with 118 needed and 5 wickets down, the door is open for England here
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This could be over quickly if Pant plays his natural game
However with 118 needed and 5 wickets down, the door is open for England here
Never fear, Moeen is here.
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Pant gone England now fav just 4 more wickets to win.
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Another wicket for Moeen that rough on the pitch where he's landing the ball is well really rough
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Moeen really is a quality bowler to have as your second spinner, isn't he!
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One wonders where this leaves Rashid...
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One wonders where this leaves Rashid...
Quite simply in a supporting role as number one spinner to the number two spinner
Easy! :)p
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England win a series against the world number 1 test ranked team
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Quite simply in a supporting role as number one spinner to the number two spinner
Easy! :)p
Makes perfect sense!
Ish!
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England win! Game and series against th world number one.
Not bad for a side missing two openers..... in need of a number 3...... a middle order of 3 numbers 7s.... no world class spinner...... a bowler thats passed it...... too many white ball players and a few flat track bullies.
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https://twitter.com/MazherArshad/status/1036296640724914176
Mazher Arshad
@MazherArshad
This is Moeen Ali's 6th man-of-the-match award in Tests. Since his debut, only one player has received more - Steve Smith (8 ) #EngvInd
Can't win you test matches, remember.
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In this series the toss was the deciding factor, fortunately for Root he won it in every match - despite the brainless call in Nottingham. It's concerning that India ran such so close in Birmingham and Southampton. Once Anderson and Broad retire we'll be a fairly poor side even in home conditions.
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In this series the toss was the deciding factor, fortunately for Root he won it in every match - despite the brainless call in Nottingham. It's concerning that India ran such so close in Birmingham and Southampton. Once Anderson and Broad retire we'll be a fairly poor side even in home conditions.
Please don't be so nieve to say the toss was the deciding factor between the teams. Of course it helps if you win the toss but England were 86-6 after choosing to bat!! India let us get away in the 1st innings, they could easily have been chasing far less.
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Great performance by Rashid
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Great performance by Rashid
He is simply not needed and not trusted by Root.
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Great performance by Rashid
14 overs, 3 maidens, 0-40 across 2 innings.
What more do you want from your frontline spinner on a pitch that's turning? ;)
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Please don't be so nieve to say the toss was the deciding factor between the teams. Of course it helps if you win the toss but England were 86-6 after choosing to bat!! India let us get away in the 1st innings, they could easily have been chasing far less.
So batsmen can't turn the tables on bowlers? 86-6 means nothing in the modern game where lower order players are expected to contribute with the bat. England's collection of 'all rounders' is the difference as India essentially had three 11s in Shami, sharma and Bumrah.
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Get Pope back in for the oval and jettison Rashid for good one
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It's quite unusual for us to play two spinners at home. Swann and Panesar did not play many games together, I can only actual think of One or two.
We are in a bit of an unusual summer thou to stick up for the selectors. It's been bone dry most of the time and yet the wickets have favoured seamers most of the time.
At the rose bowl, it's was known to spin later on, so we did need two spinners...probably the right call...
Moeens cricket seems to be in his head, he's a xo fidence player. He's not the first to have a slightly unusual mentality and won't be the last.
He sees himself as a batsman who bowls , so will always be the second spinner if there are two picked...and then he bowls better.
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So batsmen can't turn the tables on bowlers? 86-6 means nothing in the modern game where lower order players are expected to contribute with the bat. England's collection of 'all rounders' is the difference as India essentially had three 11s in Shami, sharma and Bumrah.
But that's not the point you were making you were talking about the toss.
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Final test, nothing to lose- Gubbins in for Cook, Pope in for Stokes (rest the knee), a young seamer in for Broad.
Gubbins
Jennings
Ali
Root
YJB
Pope
Jos
Currant
Leach
ANOther
Jimmy
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86-6 means nothing
:S
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Major ECB announcement at 12pm
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Cooks retirement.
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Cooks retirement.
Yep I'd say so.
Oval to be his last test
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Cooks retirement.
Oh lord I hope not. Can it be the cancellation of the Hundred balls-up instead? Or they've decided we're short on all-rounders and Jofra Archer will make his debut in the next test?
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Cooks retirement.
Id rather it was Jennings retirement
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Wow.
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Big boots to fill
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Good time to do it I feel! He had the impression of a guy that was beyond his best.
Fantastic servant to English cricket. The first English runs of the summer have been a Cook bunt into the Legside for a single for so long it'll be strange not to see him opening up!
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Great servant to English cricket. I thought he would break Tendulkar's record in tests but now his record is safe.
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The end of one of the greats. Cheers Chef.
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End of an era, one of the true greats retires, at probably the right time, glad he will get a time for a good send off.
Thanks for the memories Chef.
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Huge boots to fill,, I hope the talents out there and is allowed the opportunity to step in .
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Gutted, I love Chef ! He's looked out of sorts, however, its been tough for most batsmen this series as the balls been doing so much. I hoped he would just put it behind him and carry on.
And as a side note, he's taken the pressure of Jennings, even more reason to feel gutted !!
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Cooks retired!! But we better not start talking about his replacement. Someone will get upset......
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I am disappointed. He could've broken and created records. I didn't hear much about fitness issues so he was lucky in that regard.
For batsmen/bowlers with potential to break records, captaincy is a big mistake or rather a distraction to their career trajectories. Root is making that mistake as well.
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I actually think Cooks retirement will help whoever X2 comes in to try and nail down an openers spot. I can only imagine youd turn up on being selected and you get the feeling Cooks thinking Oh heres another one who will last about five tests
Well played Cook good timing too
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I'm a huge Cook fan so it's a sad day. He might think his game is just tipping over where he has lost his edge.
Great to see he will still play for Essex and has signed a three year deal. He has followed his mentor Gooch career wise.
Def the best opener I've seen for England but as one door closes another one opens
We prob need another thread now but Joe Denley seems to be the name in the frame for a call up.
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As much as I like the idea of Denly, I don't see much point in it because if he does well it's only going to be short lived anyway as he is already older, so would have to start the whole search for a replacement again.
Think Denly could be an option on white ball stuff before the Test side
Who else is there? Basically we need 2 as Jennings can't have much left either
Burns probably deserves a shot even if his runs have come on a flat track just for she's consistency and volume
But who else? Lyth is a great cricketer and id love to see him get another shot but he's not really banging door down with runs either
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I did read burns plays an imaginary leg glance before the ball is delivered which is unusual I would think. Can't remember a player doing that in the past, perhaps that has held him back a bit for a England shot so far.
I think Vince should get another chance, yes he has had some already but it's worth another shot.
Joe Clarke of Worcs for me at 1,2 or 3.
Bell would be my bet for 12 months even thou it's short term I don't think that should be an issue.
So I would pick
Clarke
Bell and Vince..
Clarke is very young and will improve, Vince has some experience and talent, it's his head needs sorting. So far in the championship he has got his head down
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I don't agree that Denly would be a short term fix at 32 years of age. He's in the form of his life, would bring experience to play alongside another new opener and bowls leg spin, which will be invaluable on the up coming tour. I can't believe cricket still thinks players are past it if they are over 30. Roger Federer would have no chance if he was an English cricketer!
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I really like Burns - and you can't argue with his stats. I did hear that the selectors found his technique a bit odd, and thus overlooked him in favour of more orthodox players. Load of nonsense that, nobody would have selected Graeme Smith based on his technique but he was superb, same goes for Sehwag, Smith and loads more.
In particular I heard they don't like his turning his head to mid-on during the bowlers gather, presumably a tactic to prevent him falling over towards off?
Burns or Denly and/or Bell would be brought in for me. Joe Clarke is great, his time will come. I also like Mitchell at Worcs.
Based purely on form, those players should probably all be involved anyway.
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I don't agree that Denly would be a short term fix at 32 years of age. He's in the form of his life, would bring experience to play alongside another new opener and bowls leg spin, which will be invaluable on the up coming tour. I can't believe cricket still thinks players are past it if they are over 30. Roger Federer would have no chance if he was an English cricketer!
I agree with you completely
Just feel the selectors may view him as rather old
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Very sad to see Cook call time on his international career at a relatively young age. He looked like he needed a break from the treadmill of international cricket and I was hoping he would take the winter off and come back refreshed. Happy that he has committed to playing for Essex for another 3 seasons though.
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Burns has to get a go at the top! He has scored so many runs in Div 1.
I've heard Gubbins and Denly suggested, but I think Jennings will keep his place for the final match to be honest. He shouldn't... but this is England. Radical change is unlikely.
I still think Vince is good enough to make it at the international level. His 76 against NZ was unlucky to see him not get a chance this summer really. He strengthens a really weak top order as a proper bat, but where does he fit? At the top? Or would he score more in an already packed middle order? After much thinking, this is my strongest England team for the future- imagining if we didn't have to play Cook for the last test. Bairstow is batting too low, and shouldn't have played in the most recent test really. I think he is exhausted after a long summer. Is he the ideal opener? No, but by batting there he balances the side really well (and will settle him & and he is a proven international run scorer). I really like the look of this side- a strong looking top order (Ali batting 3 is the new thing apparently), plenty of low order runs and a varied bowling attack.
Burns
Bairstow
Ali
Root (C)
Vince
Stokes
Buttler (WK/VC)
Woakes
Curran
Broad
Anderson
Squad: Rashid, Leach, Porter, Pope, Overton, Denly
Two interesting articles- Buttler to keep https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/09/03/jos-buttler-become-englands-long-term-test-wicketkeeper-jonny/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/09/03/jos-buttler-become-englands-long-term-test-wicketkeeper-jonny/)
Denly and Burns: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/09/03/england-could-pick-rory-burns-joe-denly-winter-sri-lanka-tour/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/09/03/england-could-pick-rory-burns-joe-denly-winter-sri-lanka-tour/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget)
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Only IMHO
Burns has to come in for the sheer amount of runs scored in div 1 opening.
Denly as rightly been pointed out is in the form of his career and although hasnt been opened this year does have experience of opening in the past and stated he wants to open in the future. Also handy leg spin for when we need it.
Clarke definitely is a talent and surely it wouldnt be a bad bet to just give him a long run in the side, pretty much regardless of his form as hes not a short term fix and could be a long term number 3.
Root then bats where he wants at 4.
Stokes to stay at 5 and be that 4th seamer.
Buttler as just a batsmen comes in at 6.
Bairstow gets the gloves back, which he wants but goes down to 7
Ali 8, just tell him hes second spinner behind denly ;)
Curran at 9, which I think is too low but where else do you fit him in lol
Broad although can go through days of not bowling well, he has that awesome spell in him and dont see who else would be better, no.10
Anderson number 11 until he cant run in anymore
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1st things 1st, we should be unchanged for the Oval, Cook should get 200 and a bowl, and get Kohli for a pair 😂😂
Now Sri Lanka and replacing him. Sheer weight of runs says Burns gets a chance. I keep Jennings because changing both would be too much and Jennings actually plays spin quite well.
New No.3 is Denly, in the form of his life, he's a proper no.3 batter so he comes in.
Root at 4 where he obviously wants to bat.
Butler at 5 without the gloves, i think Butler is a better batsman than the others in Asia due to IPL experience.
Stokes at 6 where he wants to bat
Bairstow at 7 with the gloves, if he keeps he bats 7 and in Asia it's where he should bat
Mo at 8
Curran at 9
Rashid at 10
Leach at 11
I know this means we go into the match with no Broad or Anderson but it will happen sooner or later so this is the ideal opportunity to try it. We will need 3 spinners, granted Denly/Root could fill 1 of those spots but I really don't see the point of playing more seamers than Stokes and Curran when spin is going to be bowled all day. We might as well play more spinners and bat deeper.
The last series in Sri Lanka vs SA. SL bowled something like 10 0overs of seam across 2 tests! Including 0 overs of seam in 1 game!
EDIT: squad would include Pope and Clarke as back up batters. And Broad and AN Other seamer as back up bowlers.
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Now the 5th test won't be interesting. Would have wanted a series decider. But Moeen, Sam and Jos made the difference. In hindsight, India should have played Jadeja on that pitch. He would have made a big difference.
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So its the same squad for the 5th test minus Vince
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So its the same squad for the 5th test minus Vince
yep be interesting who bats 3 now there is no specialist 3 in the squad and Root blatantly doesn't want to do it.
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yep be interesting who bats 3 now there is no specialist 3 in the squad and Root blatantly doesn't want to do it.
Moeen the sacrificial lamb no doubt. Or Root does it one more time before they try a proper number 3 in the winter.
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Moeen the sacrificial lamb no doubt. Or Root does it one more time before they try a proper number 3 in the winter.
yes.....smells a bit this. from 7 or 8 to 3 don't make any sense.
moeen like a lot of our batsman is a 5 6 or 7 or 8 against test class bowling
he's a team man thou and will bat anywhere
credit to him for that
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Moeen's attitude to do whatever is asked of him contrasts sharply with Bairstow's childish petulance over the wicketkeeping issue but you do feel that Ali needs a clear role in the batting line up if we are to get the most out of him. He has opened and now batted 3 but he doesn't look best suited to either of those roles. Bringing back Bell and dropping Root down to 4 where he wants to bat seems the best option with Ali batting 7/8 depending on the make up of the side
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I don't agree that Denly would be a short term fix at 32 years of age. He's in the form of his life, would bring experience to play alongside another new opener and bowls leg spin, which will be invaluable on the up coming tour. I can't believe cricket still thinks players are past it if they are over 30. Roger Federer would have no chance if he was an English cricketer!
Wouldn't pick untried 30 plus year olds as there won't be a long term future in it for the player or England
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Moeen's attitude to do whatever is asked of him contrasts sharply with Bairstow's childish petulance over the wicketkeeping issue but you do feel that Ali needs a clear role in the batting line up if we are to get the most out of him. He has opened and now batted 3 but he doesn't look best suited to either of those roles. Bringing back Bell and dropping Root down to 4 where he wants to bat seems the best option with Ali batting 7/8 depending on the make up of the side
yes that's why it makes sense to recall a specialist and then the top order problem starts to get sorted.
England don't want to drop one of the all rounders thou that's why its tricky.
They are fudging the issue by not tackling the problem at the top
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yes that's why it makes sense to recall a specialist and then the top order problem starts to get sorted.
England don't want to drop one of the all rounders thou that's why its tricky.
They are fudging the issue by not tackling the problem at the top
The only thing you could say is the Mo could bat at 3 in Sri Lanka, the ball does no where near as much and Sri Lanka are likely to open with spin anyways.
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Moeen's attitude to do whatever is asked of him contrasts sharply with Bairstow's childish petulance over the wicketkeeping issue but you do feel that Ali needs a clear role in the batting line up if we are to get the most out of him. He has opened and now batted 3 but he doesn't look best suited to either of those roles. Bringing back Bell and dropping Root down to 4 where he wants to bat seems the best option with Ali batting 7/8 depending on the make up of the side
Ali is best suited to 7/8 and counter-attacking/having a biff when the tail arrives, but that seems to be what they have brought Buttler in for, can maybe have them both in if YJB accepts that he is a batter and bats in the top 5.
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Ali should be no where near the top 5, he opened the batting in the UAE a few years back and that experiment didn't work. They need someone who isn't going to be a stop gap or a short term shoe-in, with Cook retiring we have the perfect opportunity to start a fresh and create a top 3 who will be given a chance to perform for a while......that being said there isn't an awful lot to choose from so my top 3 would be Jennings, Burns and Livingston
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Wouldn't pick untried 30 plus year olds as there won't be a long term future in it for the player or England
There's plenty of players over the years who made their debuts late and went on to had stellar careers in Test teams - even if it's only for a few years rather than a dozen, that would still make them last a lot longer than the average English opener these days (bar Chef).
Hussey was 30, Voges was 35, they have two of the highest batting averages ever in Tests.
Also, what difference does it make if it's long or short term, you'd rather have worse players for a longer period of time than good players changing every five or six years?
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There's plenty of players over the years who made their debuts late and went on to had stellar careers in Test teams - even if it's only for a few years rather than a dozen, that would still make them last a lot longer than the average English opener these days (bar Chef).
Hussey was 30, Voges was 35, they have two of the highest batting averages ever in Tests.
Also, what difference does it make if it's long or short term, you'd rather have worse players for a longer period of time than good players changing every five or six years?
Certainly wouldn't want worse players for any length of time the view is England would benefit more picking players under 25 with a longer term future at international level also
getting five years out of a 30 plus debutant is rarer than the steak i had for lunch.
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Certainly wouldn't want worse players for any length of time the view is England would benefit more picking players under 25 with a longer term future at international level also
getting five years out of a 30 plus debutant is rarer than the steak i had for lunch.
However, you could get two years out of them - and if they've earned their spot with Championship performances, and likely have soft skills gained through experience you're all the better for it. I agree that if you've a 22 yo whom is in excellent form then they should be given the opportunity to play, but also if you've a 32 yo whom is in even better form and has put in the hard yards in first class cricket that they should be picked ahead of them.
I look at international cricket as the pinnacle of the sport, and that your best players should be selected, regardless of age. Shouldn't be attempting to let players learn the game in Test cricket. Also, one issue we've had with Root and Cook is the lack of captaincy experience - if the path to the England team is more hard fought, then they're likely to have captaincy experience, and if not certainly far greater tactical nous.
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Agreed that just because someone is 32 they shouldnt be ruled out. That is ageist and silly- like others have said- look at Hussey and Voges!
Id want a left hand right hand combination- why not give Denly a go?Plus he bowls decent leagues now and is in the form of his life!He has played round the world and has been through the mill- and has come back stronger for it. I like that. Try Burns out- another one who deserves an opportunity and knows his game apparantly- the fact that he is a bit quirky I actually quite like! Then a right hander at 3- give Bell one last hurrah?Or even Hildreth- I would say Vince but I feel he would do well at 5,but our middle order is sorted. Any other ideas?
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Agreed that just because someone is 32 they shouldnt be ruled out. That is ageist and silly- like others have said- look at Hussey and Voges!
Id want a left hand right hand combination- why not give Denly a go?Plus he bowls decent leagues now and is in the form of his life!He has played round the world and has been through the mill- and has come back stronger for it. I like that. Try Burns out- another one who deserves an opportunity and knows his game apparantly- the fact that he is a bit quirky I actually quite like! Then a right hander at 3- give Bell one last hurrah?Or even Hildreth- I would say Vince but I feel he would do well at 5,but our middle order is sorted. Any other ideas?
Personally I don't think we really deserve 3-1 up but that's just my opinion. We shouldn't forget we have won the series against the worlds number 1 side.
So there are problems but it's because we are lopsided with allrounders. bell for me but if not Vince and one other.
Jennings? I really don't know, he's not good enough I don't think
I would open with one of bell or Vince and one of them 3
It's clear Root will be batting 4 from now on...,,
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I dont understand people suggesting Bell as an opener? For crying out load lets give the guys a chance and at least bat people where they bat week in week out for their counties.Jeez
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Can everyone stop using Voges as an example. Granted Michael Hussey was one of the modern day greats, but Voges was an average player whom merely minnow bashed the Windies. Voges averaged over 500 against Windies, yet was made to look like a fool against England and South Africa
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Can everyone stop using Voges as an example. Granted Michael Hussey was one of the modern day greats, but Voges was an average player whom merely minnow bashed the Windies. Voges averaged over 500 against Windies, yet was made to look like a fool against England and South Africa
To be fair we have the Windies coming up so a Voges is a great shout in this case.
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Personally I don't think we really deserve 3-1 up but that's just my opinion. We shouldn't forget we have won the series against the worlds number 1 side.
So there are problems but it's because we are lopsided with allrounders. bell for me but if not Vince and one other.
Jennings? I really don't know, he's not good enough I don't think
I would open with one of bell or Vince and one of them 3
It's clear Root will be batting 4 from now on...,,
Never really believed Indias number 1 test status was a true reflection due to the number of tests they have played at home.
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Also, you can only beat what's on front of you, and Voges outscored all of their established batsmen.
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reportedly Bairstow back as keeper batsman for the Oval
which is a bit of a surprise
wonder if a frank exchange of views has taken place :)
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Been confirmed its an unchanged side with Bairstow as keeper
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Bairstow does love chucking his toys out the pram doesn't he.
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Bairstow does love chucking his toys out the pram doesn't he.
hmmm. I think so yes.
pretty convinced England want to go in a defferent direction...
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Call up Pope, get him to the Oval inbetween a Surrey game, don't pick him. Why bother?
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Call up Pope, get him to the Oval inbetween a Surrey game, don't pick him. Why bother?
Because Flower & Cook are still secretly in charge and they want Essex to win? :D
Should have called up Morkel & Clarke as well!
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reportedly Bairstow back as keeper batsman for the Oval
which is a bit of a surprise
wonder if a frank exchange of views has taken place :)
Is it really a surprise? YJB worked his (No Swearing Please) off to become an a international quality keeper batsmen, very few sides have a specialist keeper of world class quality such as a James Foster for example.
In addition his batting is superior when he keeps wicket so for the team it makes sense for him to keep.
Add in Butler was hardly amazing in the last test with the gloves and personally think YJB is the better keeper of the two and the best keeper/batsmen option
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I fully expected Bairstow to take the gloves back as soon as he was fit enough to.
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I think with Bairstow it's a reasurance thing maybe it's because he was in and out of England team
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Makes him tougher to drop. If you're playing solely as a batsman, you're judged purely on runs. If the keeper scores runs, its still seen as a bit of a bonus. Way more keepers are dropped for bad keeping than bad batting.
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Makes him tougher to drop. If you're playing solely as a batsman, you're judged purely on runs. If the keeper scores runs, its still seen as a bit of a bonus. Way more keepers are dropped for bad keeping than bad batting.
Yep this. Bairstow's bleated on for a long time about wanting to bat higher, last test he got the chance to bat in a proper spot and played two really poor shots (not for the first time this series). Combine that with Buttler in the side scoring runs and keeping last game and he's clearly feeling the pressure.
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Pads on Chef.
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Happy that Vihari gets a go as he is from part of India :) ....but completely agree with Sunny Gavaskar regarding Karun Nair. You pick a guy in the squad as a batsman and then you get another guy as a replacement and pick him ahead. This Indian team is a mess under the Kohli-Shastri combo. Hope they show Shastri the door and get someone else in his place who is not just a yes-man for Kohli.
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Happy that Vihari gets a go as he is from part of India :) ....but completely agree with Sunny Gavaskar regarding Karun Nair. You pick a guy in the squad as a batsman and then you get another guy as a replacement and pick him ahead. This Indian team is a mess under the Kohli-Shastri combo. Hope they show Shastri the door and get someone else in his place who is not just a yes-man for Kohli.
I thought it was pretty strange, granted I've never heard of this Vihari chap(mind you he's averaging 60 in first class cricket), but I just saw on Twitter that Vihari can bowl some semi decent off breaks whereas Nair doesn't bowl. Perhaps that was the deciding factor.
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Mo batting where he wants for England at 3.
Looks an easy paced pitch with plenty of runs in it batting first.
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I thought it was pretty strange, granted I've never heard of this Vihari chap(mind you he's averaging 60 in first class cricket), but I just saw on Twitter that Vihari can bowl some semi decent off breaks whereas Nair doesn't bowl. Perhaps that was the deciding factor.
He must have worked on it then. When he was tearing up the Essex leagues in 14 & 15, he bowled with some success, but didn't look enough to trouble a real decent player on a test pitch...
Got to feel for Nair. The selectors obviously rate him (I mean, they don't give out test triple hundreds in cereal boxes!) but the coach / captain clearly don't.
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30 odd for no loss? What?
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Vihari is on already?
Almost as if to prove a point around his selection!
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Soft dismissal that Keaton
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Ridiculous
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Cook looks like he's going to get 100
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Who gonna win the 5th and last test match of the series between Eng and Ind?
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However, you could get two years out of them - and if they've earned their spot with Championship performances, and likely have soft skills gained through experience you're all the better for it. I agree that if you've a 22 yo whom is in excellent form then they should be given the opportunity to play, but also if you've a 32 yo whom is in even better form and has put in the hard yards in first class cricket that they should be picked ahead of them.
I look at international cricket as the pinnacle of the sport, and that your best players should be selected, regardless of age. Shouldn't be attempting to let players learn the game in Test cricket. Also, one issue we've had with Root and Cook is the lack of captaincy experience - if the path to the England team is more hard fought, then they're likely to have captaincy experience, and if not certainly far greater tactical nous.
This. You want to win at any sport, you pick your best players.
Age is a secondary concern, unles you have two players of equal ability.
To turn a well-worn phrase on its head, if they're good enough, they're young enough.
Guys in their late 20s and early 30s are at the peak of their powers.
It's that perfect middle of a Venn diagram where honed experience & technique intersect with the physicality & reactions needed to play at that level.
You may only get 2-3 years out of them, but you'll stand more chance of winning every game than if you had a promising 20-year old.
Instead, let that promising 20-year old learn their game in First Class cricket, and earn their place in the Test team on ability. Not on a promise.
Take Ian Bell. If he's back in form and the best in the country, get him in. Worry about a replacement until he isn't.
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50 up for Chef. Batted son
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This. You want to win at any sport, you pick your best players.
Age is a secondary concern, unles you have two players of equal ability.
To turn a well-worn phrase on its head, if they're good enough, they're young enough.
Guys in their late 20s and early 30s are at the peak of their powers.
It's that perfect middle of a Venn diagram where honed experience & technique intersect with the physicality & reactions needed to play at that level.
You may only get 2-3 years out of them, but you'll stand more chance of winning every game than if you had a promising 20-year old.
Instead, let that promising 20-year old learn their game in First Class cricket, and earn their place in the Test team on ability. Not on a promise.
Take Ian Bell. If he's back in form and the best in the country, get him in. Worry about a replacement until he isn't.
Completely agree, and as you say 'on a promise' is interesting, do those players have the mentality to withstand failure (they've likely not encountered it yet in the county game)? Cricketing experience and technique that is honed in first class cricket is important, but equally important is the mental side of the game. There's far too much talk of the future, pick your best players now, win games now, and when the future becomes the present, take the same approach.
One other thing I would say, is that if you have some promising players you think could be in with a shout of playing for the Test team in a few years, combine them into a team with an experienced captain, Collingwood or Mullaney say, and play them against the tourists. Gives them a decent warm up game rather than the rubbish standard they usually face these days, and gives the younger players an extra chance against top players. Or actually just get the Lions to play them.
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Moeen batting like a number 3.
With plenty of luck played and missed quite a few times
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England number 3's average and balls faced per innings over the last 3 years:
Root - 43 from 70 balls (35 from 66 in the last 2 years)
Compton - 25 from 61
Vince - 31 from 63
Bell - 31 from 99
Westley - 24 from 50
Ballance - 21 from 43
So with that in mind, 28 from 115 is well above average in terms of being a solid #3. Root couldn't have asked for much more from Cook and Moeen given the way the Indian seamers have bowled today.
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Oh, Alastair :(
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ooooooh, outside the line?
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Send Root back to #3
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Sigh
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https://twitter.com/_hypocaust/status/1038066340190474240
Moeen Ali has now been involved in at least one 50+ Test partnership for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th & 9th wickets. #ENGvIND
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Root got the new stickers on
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When you hide at 4 and still get a duck that's when it gets embarrassing
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Root is bumrahs bunny.
Genuine question, when was root last in as late as the 63rd over??
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Batting 4 made a big difference for Root just felt too much was made of him batting at three
Just don't think he's at his best right now
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He must have worked on it then. When he was tearing up the Essex leagues in 14 & 15, he bowled with some success, but didn't look enough to trouble a real decent player on a test pitch...
Got to feel for Nair. The selectors obviously rate him (I mean, they don't give out test triple hundreds in cereal boxes!) but the coach / captain clearly don't.
According to an anonymous insider Kohli and Shastri don't rate and particular like Nair. Bit pathetic if you ask me.
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That was awful from YJB
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I knew the collapse would come eventually.
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Typical England to lose 3 wickets in 9 balls
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Bairstow got that mental block Bell had. Bairstow looks a world beater at 6/7 doing the repair job when not much is expected. Yet he goes up inside the top 5 and he's a rabbit in the headlights
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Cook has set this all up to remind us all of what we'll be missing!
Root and Bairstow both fallen to predictable technical flaws... concerning. Still, at least the top 3 did its' job for once!
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So frustrating to watch. The top 3 actually do a job, and then our two best bats don't apply themselves. I massively rate Bairstow, but he's been shot mentally since the injury, and all the press stuff looks to have got to him. He's stuck in his mind, imho- like Compton, Stoneman and Malam have been. He needs a proper rest before Sri Lanka.
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Bairstow has 5 ducks in 2018 that's far too many for the second best batsman in the side
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So frustrating to watch. The top 3 actually do a job, and then our two best bats don't apply themselves. I massively rate Bairstow, but he's been shot mentally since the injury, and all the press stuff looks to have got to him. He's stuck in his mind, imho- like Compton, Stoneman and Malam have been. He needs a proper rest before Sri Lanka.
Bairstow second best batsmen ?? Really ??
Root
Cook
Big gulf
Bairstow/stokes depending on who you like
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Bairstow second best batsmen ?? Really ??
Root
Cook
Big gulf
Bairstow/stokes depending on who you like
Cook's retiring, remember?
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So frustrating to watch. The top 3 actually do a job, and then our two best bats don't apply themselves.
Curran hasn't batted yet
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Cook's retiring, remember?
And so that statement will change in 4 days 👍
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(https://s33.postimg.cc/umk8wemrz/Screenshot_20180907-115021_Chrome.jpg)
(https://s33.postimg.cc/vdcz1szbj/Screenshot_20180907-114605_Chrome.jpg)
These stats show the leading run scorers in the series, and then the leading run scorers for England in tests in 2018.
Out of the actual top order Batsmen, the averages this year are interesting.
Above 40: Buttler (46.77)
Above 30: Root (37.2), Vince (34.25)
Above 20: Bairstow (27.41), Ali (26.33), Stokes (25.41), Stoneman (24.75), Cook (21.70), Jennings (20.22)
Looking at the entire year, Root, Bairstow and Buttler have done their job accumulation wise.
Root (594), Bairstow (466), Buttler (421)...
Another problem- only 3 England players have scored a hundred this year so far- Bairstow, Woakes and Buttler. Last year, England players scored 8 hundreds (there is time though).
Our batting just isn't very good, but this can't be our strongest batting order... I hope.
Sidenote- check out the two Currans there, in the top 3 batting averages for the year! Stokes' strike rate is also incredibly low- lower than Cook... in fact lower than everyone apart from Anderson.
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Moeen batting like a number 3.
With plenty of luck played and missed quite a few times
That Aussie stat, he plays and misses the most.
Played and missed 32 times!
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That Aussie stat, he plays and misses the most.
Played and missed 32 times!
Better to play and miss at 32 wide balls than play and miss at one straight delivery.
Stokes gone now
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Question for folks who are watching the series. Can you comment on Pant keeping? All the highlights that I have seen seem to indicate that he is always out of position where he has taken half step to his left for everything. Similar to the catch that he took of Baristow, where is seen moving left before switching direction. Also, the amount of byes given up seems to be high.
Personally, I am hoping Saha is back when he is fit. I will take his solid keeping over the potential runs that Pant or Karthik might provide over what Saha who averages 30+.
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Surely has to be luckiest 50 ever?
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Question for folks who are watching the series. Can you comment on Pant keeping? All the highlights that I have seen seem to indicate that he is always out of position where he has taken half step to his left for everything. Similar to the catch that he took of Baristow, where is seen moving left before switching direction. Also, the amount of byes given up seems to be high.
Personally, I am hoping Saha is back when he is fit. I will take his solid keeping over the potential runs that Pant or Karthik might provide over what Saha who averages 30+.
The kid is just 03 tests old and playing in swinging conditions. Surely he needs time like any new in-coming player. Karthik is proper T20 player and Saha hasn't contributed much in recent years apart from his good wicket keeping.
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Moeens luck ends gets a faint nick
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Englands best batsmen of the series also goes for a duck. In trouble now
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Surely has to be luckiest 50 ever?
CBF poster's curse, you jinxed him. :D
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Question for folks who are watching the series. Can you comment on Pant keeping? All the highlights that I have seen seem to indicate that he is always out of position where he has taken half step to his left for everything. Similar to the catch that he took of Baristow, where is seen moving left before switching direction. Also, the amount of byes given up seems to be high.
Personally, I am hoping Saha is back when he is fit. I will take his solid keeping over the potential runs that Pant or Karthik might provide over what Saha who averages 30+.
He's been desperately unlucky with a lot of those byes tbf, they've been going miles down legside and no keeper in the world would get to them.
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He's been desperately unlucky with a lot of those byes tbf, they've been going miles down legside and no keeper in the world would get to them.
Fair enough. How about his initial trigger movement to the left? Is that happening every ball or just when there is a catch headed his way (sorry, I am basing that strictly on the highlights on ECB website? I believe he dropped Butler in similar fashion in one of the previous test where he had started moving left and had to change direction quickly to right.
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Root is slowly falling out of the very top tier of current batsmen. Poor conversion rate, and turning into a bit of a Shane Watson when it comes to DRS. And captaincy doesnt seem to suit him AT ALL. Time to make butler captain and let Root just bat?
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Time for Buttler to move to number 5 and a rethink with the whole top 3. Burns has to be selected for the tours purely on volume of consistent runs, plus 2 other solid proper batsman. Jennings has run his race and Ali a much better number 6-8, also he'll be bowling a lot of overs in Sri Lanka and the WI, he can't bat at 3 as well.
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Root shouldnt be captain Im afraid. He has forgotten how to score big runs, while not being able to figure out captaincy. Hes had his turn. But the little cherub face fits.
Hey Butler in- he can captain from 5 or 6.
My team for winter tour:
R. Burns
Denly (leggies)
Bell
Root
Butler (c)
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Curran
Anderson
Not broad- Quickee- Tongue?
Nice yes its a bit on the mature side..Our all rounders mean only 4 specialist batsmen..
What do you think? Tempted to rest Anderson too and have a look at Coad or someone else..
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Also tempted to give Hildreth a go!
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Root shouldnt be captain Im afraid. He has forgotten how to score big runs, while not being able to figure out captaincy. Hes had his turn. But the little cherub face fits.
Hey Butler in- he can captain from 5 or 6.
My team for winter tour:
R. Burns
Denly (leggies)
Bell
Root
Butler (c)
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Curran
Anderson
Not broad- Quickee- Tongue?
Nice yes its a bit on the mature side..Our all rounders mean only 4 specialist batsmen..
What do you think? Tempted to rest Anderson too and have a look at Coad or someone else..
I think if someone told Anderson he was being rested he'd give a pretty swift response. He is currently playing in a dead rubber match dont forget
Coad in Sri Lanka? Have you ever seen him bowl? Definitely suited to the typical green championship wicket not a Colombo dust bowl. Plus hes been injured all season
That 11th spot should be an extra spinner, probably Leach, and then it doesnt look too bad a team. Although I'd prefer some reverse swing to Currans conventional in those conditions no one available comes to mind
I wouldnt mind Bell at 3 but I dont think the selectors will go for it. Livingstone would have had a great shout if he stayed fit having smashed it there with the Lions last year. I would also move Stokes above Butler to 5
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I don't get the argument for Denly at 3. His runs don't show he should bat at 3 above hildreth or Vince or bell and its huge risk taking him as a leggie. Leach should be picked ahead of him.
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I don't get the argument for Denly at 3. His runs don't show he should bat at 3 above hildreth or Vince or bell and its huge risk taking him as a leggie. Leach should be picked ahead of him.
Not sure I totally get it either, but... Hildreth doesn't bat at 3, Vince has repeatedly failed, Bell couldn't hack it at 3 when he was in his prime never mind at 36 and if Denly and Leach are competing for the same spot in the side then Ed Smith's lost his marbles completely.
What would be really handy is Liam Livingstone finding some red ball form after returning from injury.
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I think if someone told Anderson he was being rested he'd give a pretty swift response. He is currently playing in a dead rubber match dont forget
Coad in Sri Lanka? Have you ever seen him bowl? Definitely suited to the typical green championship wicket not a Colombo dust bowl. Plus hes been injured all season
That 11th spot should be an extra spinner, probably Leach, and then it doesnt look too bad a team. Although I'd prefer some reverse swing to Currans conventional in those conditions no one available comes to mind
I wouldnt mind Bell at 3 but I dont think the selectors will go for it. Livingstone would have had a great shout if he stayed fit having smashed it there with the Lions last year. I would also move Stokes above Butler to 5
Fair points. Im not sure either Stokes or Butler is a five,but one has to go there I guess. Poor shout from me about Coad,can you see we are getting desperate and clutching at straws. If I was a county pro batter right now with international ambitions, I would open or bat 3. If you can bat there you can bat anywhere. Id be tempted with Vince again..what did Bell average at 3-Any hundreds? Im not sure they will go back to him though. Completely forgot about the second spinner.. I like Leach.
Rashid- they pick him but Root has done the same muppets thing that all England skippers do- and show no faith in leggies. Poor handling yet again, like a broken record. And dont come back with the argument that hes not good enough, because if you do you miss the point and dont have a scoobie!
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I'm dying at Moeen's press conference after stumps yesterday.
"When I went in to tea the guys were calling me Geoffrey Boycott but then they came in to bat they played and missed their first ball so I was pretty happy with that"
:D :D :D :D
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To be fair to Boycott, Moeen probably played and missed more yesterday than Boycs would in a season. He wasn't actually trying to hit the ball most of the time.
Moeen I thought rode his luck a little, but he hung about and was rewarded for it. Lesson for others. Surely now a shoe-in at 3 for the winter? Or does Vince get another crack?
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England have a decent score here. Cant see India getting 150
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Ive banged on long enough about batting test match time despite being classed as a one day player
Butler is doing brilliantly for us, its great to see how he has played this series
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Fifty for buttler!!
86 balls so not quite a swashbuckling one.
India havent bowled as well this morning as they did yesterday.
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Excellent knock by Broad in his partnership with Buttler
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With his current form Buttler is being wasted way down the order. Instead of rescue act, he should be used to get the opposition on the back foot from the start. It's clearly a difference between par score of 300 plus as compared to a winning first innings total of 450 plus.
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With his current form Buttler is being wasted way down the order. Instead of rescue act, he should be used to get the opposition on the back foot from the start. It's clearly a difference between par score of 300 plus as compared to a winning first innings total of 450 plus.
Problem is though is its a different game at the top of the order
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Yeah, there's a risk of breaking something that's working. It's one thing making changes like that when the rest of the batting order is firing on all cylinders but I wouldn't experiment when England don't have any openers, have question marks over the #3 and numbers 4&5 are struggling for form.
Last thing England need is to lose the runs that Buttler and Curran have provided this summer.
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Kohli really does never believe hes out does he :D
Anyone notice him walking off slowly checking back hoping for a no ball or some other saving grace 😂😂
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This is why Stokes is the best allrounder in the world.
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Ive banged on long enough about batting test match time despite being classed as a one day player
Butler is doing brilliantly for us, its great to see how he has played this series
Yes he has he's shown if your good enough you can adapt to suit formats.
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Problem is though is its a different game at the top of the order
We will never know till it is tried. He has shown decent technique against a potent attack with both new and old Duke doing a lot.This innings was certainly not played on a flat track.l remember Ganguly's couple of decisions which changed the fortune of couple of Indian players.Sending Sehwag to open and sending Laxman one down in that famous Calcutta test. A lot is broken with this English lineup which is being patched by the lower order time and again. England is 3-1 up and most likely 4-1 up not because of it's batting, it's simply because Indian batting failed miserably barring Kohli. Buttler opens in shorter format as well and if given an opportunity, he can be key in Srilanka and Westindies.
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Kohli really does never believe hes out does he :D
Anyone notice him walking off slowly checking back hoping for a no ball or some other saving grace 😂😂
Neither does root. Roots turned into the new Watson, reviewing plumb lbws this series
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Ishant Sharma is the worst one. Smashed one onto his pad and got caught last game and then stood there like the umpire had told him he was about to kill his family.
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I think Kholi knows with his wicket goes the game for India. He had to stay in for them to get close to England's score.
Dunno what anyone else thinks but he has been head and shoulders above any other batsman on either side. He is a superb player.
Root has had a poor series and without Cook the pressure on him is set to increase in future matches
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I think Kholi knows with his wicket goes the game for India. He had to stay in for them to get close to England's score.
Dunno what anyone else thinks but he has been head and shoulders above any other batsman on either side. He is a superb player.
Root has had a poor series and without Cook the pressure on him is set to increase in future matches
Yep Kholi had his share of luck but showed why he's number 1.
As for Cook surprised Root and management haven't tried to get to him to stay until after the 2019 ashes and tell him he could take the winter off.
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Yep Kholi had his share of luck but showed why he's number 1.
As for Cook surprised Root and management haven't tried to get to him to stay until after the 2019 ashes and tell him he could take the winter off.
Yes me too, I still think he is our best. Can't see any ready replacement for him in the next few months.
I think it's a shame myself, I'm a huge Cook fan.
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Broad was saying this morning hes never seen the ball move this much. Said it might be down to the batch of balls.
Have to agree - not seen the ball move this much in a 5 test match series. Its made great viewing. Time they get the dukes ball all around the world.
Rashid finally getting a bowl
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Yes me too, I still think he is our best. Can't see any ready replacement for him in the next few months.
I think it's a shame myself, I'm a huge Cook fan.
Listening to Nasser although Cook is the fittest member of the England squad his decision is due metal tiredness 160 plus tests in 12 years
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Something they've just showed on Sky Sports. Does this disprove the angle theory?
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb450/CPye061194/20180909_143237_zpslfdvx1rm.jpg) (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/CPye061194/media/20180909_143237_zpslfdvx1rm.jpg.html)
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Dont see the point of bowling spin to jadeja, get stokes and Curran on. Rashid just isnt good enough for red ball cricket
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Something they've just showed on Sky Sports. Does this disprove the angle theory?
([url]http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb450/CPye061194/20180909_143237_zpslfdvx1rm.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/CPye061194/media/20180909_143237_zpslfdvx1rm.jpg.html[/url])
Diagram = FACT
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Great knock from Jadeja that, no idea why he's not been playing this series, quality player and proved his ability in England back in 2014
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Hopefully cook gives us a final innings fitting of his career.
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Cook is showing why we still need him and maybe a winter off would of been better
Jennings is unconvincing and you have to know where your off stump is to open. Good ball thou it was you have to cover that with your bat, if you nick it it goes with the job
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Is mo batting in new nb spikes??
If so they look lush!!
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Some serious luck here for cook, playing and missing all over the shop. Doing a Ali
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Is it just me, or is Jadeja getting away with a lot of back foot no balls?
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Root's red & silver New Balance stickers look nice.
I think that's the best colour scheme they've come out with for a while
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Is it just me, or is Jadeja getting away with a lot of back foot no balls?
Back foot no ball law is different to the front in that it doesn't count if the foot's not grounded - Jadeja gets away with it because his heel's in the air, just.
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Yep in the air but over the crease legal ball
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Cook is showing why we still need him and maybe a winter off would of been better
Jennings is unconvincing and you have to know where your off stump is to open. Good ball thou it was you have to cover that with your bat, if you nick it it goes with the job
The worry for me is that it is not like he has been set up for this by a skilful piece of bowling like in the previous test - this time the two balls before he was out were both angled in to him. He has just left a ball which did exactly the same as the last two deliveries, both of which he had to play a shot to. He doesn't look capable of scoring quickly nor does he look capable of staying in for any period of time so it is hard to see how he is ever going to make a meaningful score on anything like a regular basis.
I can understand given that England have spent half a decade unsuccessfully searching for one opener that they are disinclined to have to search for two over the course of a winter but it is hard to see anything that Jennings has shown that he can hack it at this level.
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It is a tough one for the selectors but I dont see how they can pick Jennings any longer. Another new opener surely couldnt do worse?! Perhaps average over 30 ;)
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I rarely criticize test players as I know the work they put into getting there, but I can't think of an opening batsmen with a worse technique than Jennings, I can't believe there's no one better in the system.
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Back foot no ball law is different to the front in that it doesn't count if the foot's not grounded - Jadeja gets away with it because his heel's in the air, just.
Oh, I'm aware of the law. I'm just not convinced that his heel is consistently "in the air".
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Oh, I'm aware of the law. I'm just not convinced that his heel is consistently "in the air".
A commentator gave an explanation last night that if the back foot touches inside line first it can then cut the line, was different than I understood it but they had asked the third umpire apparently.
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I rarely criticize test players as I know the work they put into getting there, but I can't think of an opening batsmen with a worse technique than Jennings, I can't believe there's no one better in the system.
There are better thats for sure, one thing England seem to talk a lot about is the mental aspect as well as the technical and I believe I have read some where that the set up really like Jennings mental toughness. However good that may be his run of low and poor scores has been too long and his technical issues of not getting forward at all really will ultimately be his downfall as it was for Ballance. Both will be fine fine county players with excellent avg but international level Im afraid neither are.
So really it should be Burns and then one other for the winter, Lyth, Denley or Im not totally against Hameed and just saying your our man we back you off you go. I know he has had the summer from Hell for Lancashire but maybe he is one better suited to international cricket. Vaughn and trescothick had modest county avg before test cricket
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The simple fact is that Smith was on TMS yesterday pretty much saying that Jennings would tour so it is what it is. Apparently he is being interviewed by Atherton for sky this morning so that will be interesting to see.
I think they want a bit of continuatity as Cook is retiring and also think Jennings can play spin well. Which let's face it Sri Lanka will be bowling from pretty much ball 1 anyways.
Also I know Jennings hasn't done great at all but apart from this test where Cook has, no opener has scored any runs at all.
Openers averages - Cook 28, Darwan 23, Rahul 16, Jennings 18
I think that will be taken into account.
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Can understand why Smith backs him he's a good player of spin he's better suited for Sri Lanka tests than tests at home
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Can understand why Smith backs him he's a good player of spin he's better suited for Sri Lanka tests than tests at home
In recent years Jennings, Livingstone and Clarke have been the star players of spin in the Lions squads.
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Something they've just showed on Sky Sports. Does this disprove the angle theory?
([url]http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb450/CPye061194/20180909_143237_zpslfdvx1rm.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/CPye061194/media/20180909_143237_zpslfdvx1rm.jpg.html[/url])
No...
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Can understand why Smith backs him he's a good player of spin he's better suited for Sri Lanka tests than tests at home
Not sure about that, he's looked pretty clueless against Ashwin this summer.
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root using a different brands bat? looks like he's got tape over edge stamps?
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So really it should be Burns and then one other for the winter, Lyth, Denley or Im not totally against Hameed and just saying your our man we back you off you go.
That's what they're saying to Jennings - whom has a better average against better attacks this summer than Hameed has. Jennings has not exactly covered himself in glory, but he's a good player of spin, and this series has been horrible for openers. If you're going to pick a player and back them even in failure, why should Jennings be treated any differently? That said, I do like Burns, and I do like Mitchell - both good players in good form.
Just seems like with a lot of these players people are willing to write them off as not good enough immediately. Smith was dropped by Australia and came back stronger, but I suspect that if people like Vince or Jennings or Stoneman or Westley were recalled people would be aghast at the backward step, not considering whether or not they'd managed to improve their games.
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root using a different brands bat? looks like he's got tape over edge stamps?
no dinged his bat yesterday - fibre taped it up during play.
still using "New Balance"....
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Is England batting really well or is the ball not doing as much as it was yesterday?
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There have been 8 players to open the batting in tests in England in 2018.
Only two openers have scored test fifties - Cook and Azhar Ali.
Only two openers average more than 20 - Cook (33.81 at the time of this post) and Dhawan (23.00).
Jennings is third in the averages (19.20) and has the 4th highest top score (42)
If you expand it to include number three batsmen then Pujara is the only top order batsman out of 12 this summer to average 40 or score a hundred. (Until Cook does it in half an hour of course)
No, Jennings hasn't been great but given that every opener has been absolutely awful I can see why the selectors want to persist with him a bit longer.
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no dinged his bat yesterday - fibre taped it up during play.
still using "New Balance"....
Ah cool thanks.
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Every ball cook faces Im on the edge of my seat - never wanted anyone to score a hundred more than this!!
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100 for Cook in his first and last test can't think of any other England player to achieve that.
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Superb.
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Well done Mr Cook. Superb.
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There have been 8 players to open the batting in tests in England in 2018.
Only two openers have scored test fifties - Cook and Azhar Ali.
Only two openers average more than 20 - Cook (33.81 at the time of this post) and Dhawan (23.00).
Jennings is third in the averages (19.20) and has the 4th highest top score (42)
If you expand it to include number three batsmen then Pujara is the only top order batsman out of 12 this summer to average 40 or score a hundred. (Until Cook does it in half an hour of course)
No, Jennings hasn't been great but given that every opener has been absolutely awful I can see why the selectors want to persist with him a bit longer.
But he was absolutely crap last summer as well, his fielding is dog (No Swearing Please), he doesn't actually have a very good first class record, and he's visibly incompetent. Apparently he has a good attitude and takes getting out for low scores well - I'm not surprised, he's a (No Swearing Please) expert at it. There is absolutely nothing about him that suggests he will ever be an international standard cricketer.
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Slow pitch, demoralised, uninterested attack, dead rubber, no real pressure, a chance to boost the personal stats, I said a week ago that this test had a Cook ton written all over it.
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100 for Cook in his first and last test can't think of any other England player to achieve that.
From the BBC live text
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb450/CPye061194/SmartSelect_20180910-130939_Samsung%20Internet_zpsy4bnfqjh.jpg) (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/CPye061194/media/SmartSelect_20180910-130939_Samsung%20Internet_zpsy4bnfqjh.jpg.html)
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100 for Cook in his first and last test can't think of any other England player to achieve that.
Hes the fifth
But as far as I can tel cook is the only one to score 50 and 100 Im both tests
He is the second to score 2 50+ scores (the other chap didnt get 100 though)
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Just knew Cook would go and get a ton in his last innings. Legend!
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Lovely day to be here
(https://i.imgur.com/WYp6TOzr.jpg)
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Roooooooot
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What's the lead England want it's now over 300 probably enough
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The series is won already...Might as well get as many runs as possible. Great farewell being provided by the Indian team to Alistair Cook.
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Cook feasting on a flat pitch to massage his stats as has been his way in the last 2 years. Shame he didn't show this hunger earlier this year. Same with Root loves acting the star man on flat pancakes. Been well and truly put in his place by Kohli this series
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After a while you start to question if the Indian side actually know the lbw law...
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Cook feasting on a flat pitch to massage his stats as has been his way in the last 2 years. Shame he didn't show this hunger earlier this year. Same with Root loves acting the star man on flat pancakes. Been well and truly put in his place by Kohli this series
England 3 - India 1
Yeah, he's put him in his place good and proper
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England 3 - India 1
Yeah, he's put him in his place good and proper
You suggesting that cricket is a team sport and not just played between two individuals?!!?! ;)
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Cook feasting on a flat pitch to massage his stats as has been his way in the last 2 years. Shame he didn't show this hunger earlier this year. Same with Root loves acting the star man on flat pancakes. Been well and truly put in his place by Kohli this series
Nothing to do with hunger, been out of form and on a decline, he has realised this and retired after this series. Cook would have had the same hunger over the past 18months but unfortunately he was out of form ( although he does have 2 double tons ) in that time. Shame people cant just support what a great knock cook is playing and appreciate a all time Legend of the game
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Nothing to do with hunger, been out of form and on a decline, he has realised this and retired after this series. Cook would have had the same hunger over the past 18months but unfortunately he was out of form ( although he does have 2 double tons ) in that time. Shame people cant just support what a great knock cook is playing and appreciate a all time Legend of the game
Why be nice when you can say something controversial for added internet points.
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Why be nice when you can say something controversial for added internet points.
FYI, There are no such thing as internet points.
I don't see the point in commenting on an internet forum if you're not going to say what you think. Why lie just to "be nice" to Cook, he's not going to be reading this forum anytime soon, he'll be too busy admiring his espncricinfo stats page.
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England 3 - India 1
Yeah, he's put him in his place good and proper
What was Root's contribution in those victories? Basically nothing. Heck forum favourite Woakes outperformed him when the series was still alive
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As for all this legend of the game. Cook is an English great but no way near the top of the list of all time great openers. There's two chaps on TMS called Gavaskar and Botcott far superior to Cook. In even in this era Smith was considerably superior
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As for all this legend of the game. Cook is an English great but no way near the top of the list of all time great openers. There's two chaps on TMS called Gavaskar and Botcott far superior to Cook. In even in this era Smith was considerably superior
Wouldn't call an average of 48 (smith) or 47 (boycott) considerably or far superior to Cooks 45....
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And Cook has scored more test runs opening the batting then anyone else in history... But can't be considered a great?
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Not sure why they're bothering to carry on at this point. Bairstow bowled driving (again) and
Butter's gone out and given it away slogging only reprieved by a no ball the third umpire's having a giraffe. Might as well get on with the game, surely.
A lot happened while I wrote that post. Declare ffs, we're 397 ahead
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Wouldn't call an average of 48 (smith) or 47 (boycott) considerably or far superior to Cooks 45....
Dear fellow do some research before giving such lacklustre responses. Sir Geoffrey played on uncovered pitches not the modern day pancakes. Smith was captain in over 100 of his matches since he was 22 iirc.
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And Cook has scored more test runs opening the batting then anyone else in history... But can't be considered a great?
Lower average than pretty much all the front runners. There's such thing as quantity over quality.
Bradman 'only' has 6996 runs yet he was a darn sight better than all the rest
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And Cook has scored more test runs opening the batting then anyone else in history... But can't be considered a great?
Depends what you mean by "great". As a batsman he has well-documented strengths, and he has well-documented weaknesses. He had a golden patch between 2010 and 2012 where he really was outstanding, but outside of that window he's been extremely inconsistent, even by the standards of an opener. He's also had some noticeably poor series whenever he comes up against genuinely quick bowling on quick decks. Statistically he's comparable to the likes of Gooch and Boycott, but its beyond argument that the average standard of bowling he has faced in the past decade has been considerably lower than at almost any previous point in history.
Would he have had as successful a career in the 80s and the 90s, given what we know about his weaknesses against pace? Its a valid question. I think if he and Atherton swapped eras, then Atherton would be retiring as England's leading test run scorer today.
His longevity is simultaneously impressive, but also a result of a) England's increasingly hectic schedule, and b) the limited pressure on his place due to a complete absence of alternative opening options since Strauss retired.
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Is Ishant Sharma injured or did he get taken out of the attack for running on to the danger areas? He has only bowled 8 overs so far.
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Is Ishant Sharma injured or did he get taken out of the attack for running on to the danger areas? He has only bowled 8 overs so far.
Ankle went pop
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Blimey. Why is this still being debated?
Cook himself knows he isn't one of the most technically gifted batsman - or even opener - in the history of Test cricket.
Yet he has a Test average of over 45 across a 12-year career. That's 291 innings. In which he has missed just one game.
And the very fact that he hasn't relied on natural talent but has grafted harder than anyone else and made the most of what he has makes that average even more remarkable.
He's achieved it facing the world's best bowlers, at their freshest, with the new ball.
He's a record-breaker. The most successful left-handed batsman in Test cricket history being one of them.
Is he a Test great? In my book, hell yes.
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Blimey. Why is this still being debated?
Cook himself knows he isn't one of the most technically gifted batsman - or even opener - in the history of Test cricket.
Yet he has a Test average of over 45 across a 12-year career. That's 291 innings. In which he has missed just one game.
And the very fact that he hasn't relied on natural talent but has grafted harder than anyone else and made the most of what he has makes that average even more remarkable.
He's achieved it facing the world's best bowlers, at their freshest, with the new ball.
He's a record-breaker. The most successful left-handed batsman in Test cricket history being one of them.
Is he a Test great? In my book, hell yes.
Totally agree with this!
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Is Ishant Sharma injured or did he get taken out of the attack for running on to the danger areas? He has only bowled 8 overs so far.
Ishant has a sore ankle even if he came on he wouldn't be allowed to bowl for a while due to the length of time he's been off.
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He's achieved it facing the world's best bowlers
This is the only bit I disagree with. There are very few genuinely good bowlers around nowadays, compared to a few decades ago, and the ones that he did face, tended to get the better of him. See for example his record against Warne and McGrath.
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Well, you can only play what's put in front of you. :)
Having said that, he's played in an era against these guys - not exactly mugs with the ball...
Harbajan Singh
Murali
Johnson
Lee
Gillespie
Siddle
Rabada
Philander
Steyn
Andre Nel
Morkel
Kallis
Ntini
Martin
Southee
Boult
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Dear fellow do some research before giving such lacklustre responses. Sir Geoffrey played on uncovered pitches not the modern day pancakes. Smith was captain in over 100 of his matches since he was 22 iirc.
Is saying Smith is 'considerably superior' without providing any reason why a lacklustre statement? I'd say so.
Thought we were talking about great openers? What has the captaincy (Cook was captain for a large portion of his career) got to do with that? You don't get 5 test double centuries (yes the one against West Indies 4th XI in the day/night test was easy runs, I was there to watch) and still be classed as significantly worse than someone like Graeme Smith in my opinion. Smith also got 5 but 2 of them were at home against Bangladesh...
What exactly makes Smith 'considerably superior' to Cook as a batsman? Both of them to be brutally honest were horrendous to watch from an entertainment point of view, ugly techniques, even in 'full flow' they were never exactly Ian Bell or Kane Williamson. Yet both were extremely effective as openers in an unconventional way.
Away from the main subject, Smith in particular I admire for sheer grit, his bloody minded determination to drag South Africa to the pinnacle of test cricket was incredible. Both share that sort mindset to grind things out, do it the ugly way, etc. With the retirement of Cook this has probably been lost from the game. The ability to grind a bowling attack down, absorbing everything thrown at them and more, before reaping your reward is not something I can see in the sport where run rates are on the up and the idea of test matches changing to 4 days continues to gather momentum.
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Christ the amount of armchair critics that pipe up on the same topics is ludicrous. Cook is the 5th highest run scorer ever in test cricket (even with only 4 shots), he has won 4 ashes series, he ranks joint 16th of all time in numbers of centuries scored, nlt sure what part of these stats indicate he is not a legend. will people please shut up about him being a flat track bully - the guy averages 45 in international cricket and has scored runs anywhere and everywhere he has played. He is the greatest opening batsman England have ever had and having asked some ex players myself who they rank highest - they all said Cook Atherton and boycott were on a par but no one they have played with out works cook, and for that he has my utmost respect.
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Well Done Cook. Bravo.
Apparently, some believe test centuries against India are easy when it's a dead rubber???
Well if there is any truth to that, I'm sure there are some players who would try hard as it's test cricket for your country. Give Prithvi Shaw a go.
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has scored runs anywhere and everywhere he has played.
Point of Order: He averages 27 in New Zealand and 31 in South Africa
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Point of Order: He averages 27 in New Zealand and 31 in South Africa
so what, not everyone can average 50+ the world over
he is the 5th highest run scorer of all time..
a batsman's job is to score runs... he is the 5th best ever at that
mate, come back to us when you have over 12000 test runs, 4 ashes wins and 33 hundreds
cook is a legend. end of.
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I really like this Cook chap.
And just because he may not be the best player to have ever walked the earth, doesn't mean we can't celebrate his achievements.
Here's to Cookie. Either an England great, or a big jawed nudger who isn't worth a rub (Dependant on your opinion) the game will be poorer for your retirement.
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Not forgetting Cook's test bowling average of 7. GOAT.
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Flat pitch, easy to bat on in this dead rubber..........
Kohli outclassing root on this dead pitch to......
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I really like this Cook chap.
And just because he may not be the best player to have ever walked the earth, doesn't mean we can't celebrate his achievements.
Here's to Cookie. Either an England great, or a big jawed nudger who isn't worth a rub (Dependant on your opinion) the game will be poorer for your retirement.
well said. and if he can do it with 'only 4 shots' there's hope for us all who just have the three :)
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^ Hahahahahahha
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What the hell was that Kohli, he's already thinking of the flight home. That ball wouldn't have got me out for crying out loud
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Jimmy equals McGraths wicket total
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India have manage 2 runs and are already 3 down (with Kohli gone for a duck) on this flat track...
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DelusionS on here are comedy gold. When you play for a side that more Test matches annually than any other country you get these disparities in the statistical analysis. Cook was afforded the opportunity to rack up the Test matches so his boosted his figures to an amount surpassing his true talent/ability. It's exactly the same for Anderson and Broad whom aren't in the same ballpark as McGrath yet will both surpass the Australian great.
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Is that bait...?
McGrath was brilliantly metronomic with line and length.
Anderson is technically way ahead with what he can do with the ball.
Damn. I bit.
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Some awesome fishing going on in this thread 🎣🎣🎣🎣🎣
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But he was absolutely crap last summer as well, his fielding is dog (No Swearing Please), he doesn't actually have a very good first class record, and he's visibly incompetent. Apparently he has a good attitude and takes getting out for low scores well - I'm not surprised, he's a (No Swearing Please) expert at it. There is absolutely nothing about him that suggests he will ever be an international standard cricketer.
Never say never
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Genuine question.....
Yes I know hes the series top scorer and has been a class above (thanks to malan for that drop)
But
Is kohli still quite loose outside off? Nicked off early here and seems to have been out caught behind quite a bit this series... can someone tell em how many time hes been caught behind the wicket in this series?
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Some proper good banter boyz fishing tonight. I'm off home now after 37 well spent, I shall crack open a beer for the Mr AN Cook the flat track bully who played against weak bowling attacks day in, day out
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Is that bait...?
McGrath was brilliantly metronomic with line and length.
Anderson is technically way ahead with what he can do with the ball.
Damn. I bit.
If you want a like for like comparison it's Steyn vs Anderson. And it's still a no contest
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If you want a like for like comparison it's Steyn vs Anderson. And it's still a no contest
You're right. Anderson is clearly the superior athlete as he doesn't break down every 3 games...
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If you want a like for like comparison it's Steyn vs Anderson. And it's still a no contest
If Steyn wasn't made of glass with a tissue paper heart he'd have a chance of taking as many wickets as the great Anderson. Blame it on his soft upbringing in South Africa, notorious bottlers aplenty
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If you want a like for like comparison it's Steyn vs Anderson. And it's still a no contest
Im going to say it but overall when you compare every aspect that makes a top international bowler than I think Anderson is the better of the two.
Like it or not both Cook and Anderson are world class international players. Would they make it into an all time test team for some yes and others no but in there current career periods both are Legends and both will finish there career as in the top 5 or 10 ever in the history of the game so by definition a cricketing Legend.
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You're right. Anderson is clearly the superior athlete as he doesn't break down every 3 games...
Or alternatively you need heart to bowl really fast eg 90mph. Anderson bowling dobbers at 80mph on raging green tops means less effort is expended. Easy logic really
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Im going to say it but overall when you compare every aspect that makes a top international bowler than I think Anderson is the better of the two.
Like it or not both Cook and Anderson are world class international players. Would they make it into an all time test team for some yes and others no but in there current career periods both are Legends and both will finish there career as in the top 5 or 10 ever in the history of the game so by definition a cricketing Legend.
Quantity over quality for both Cook and more so Anderson. Without the Duke ball, Anderson is average at best. Disappears in most overseas series. World class and great of the game are two totally different kettle of fish. Just because you score more than another doesn't make you the better player.
Shearer scored more PL goals than Henry, does that mean shearer is better than Henry? Most certainly not.
Bill Russell is an 11 time NBA champion, is he better than Michael Jordan? Again certainly not.
Schumacher has more wins and championships than Senna, again is Schumacher better than Senna? Not in a month of Sundays
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Quantity over quality for both Cook and more so Anderson. Without the Duke ball, Anderson is average at best. Disappears in most overseas series. World class and great of the game are two totally different kettle of fish. Just because you score more than another doesn't make you the better player.
Shearer scored more PL goals than Henry, does that mean shearer is better than Henry? Most certainly not.
Bill Russell is an 11 time NBA champion, is he better than Michael Jordan? Again certainly not.
Schumacher has more wins and championships than Senna, again is Schumacher better than Senna? Not in a month of Sundays
ok you win, clearly Anderson is average at best as the soon to be highest wicket taking seamer ever, and if you played the same number of test matches you'd have 500+ wickets too. Cook is also average as the 5th highest run scorer of all time, and again if you had as many matches you'd be part of 4 ashes wins and score over 12400 runs too.
95% of cricket writers and experts are wrong too and have no idea what they are talking about rating Anderson and cook, how stupid they are!
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The thing I admire most about Cook is that he hasn't been the most talented player in any side he's played in, yet has still managed to average 45 opening the batting and score over 12,000 runs (largely on green seamers), while facing some of the world's best Steyn, McGrath etc, (scoring a ton against the best of the best obvs McGrath :D in 06/07 while only 22 and in his first Ashes series). Being naturally talented should make it easier, so on the flip side Cooks lack of natural ability compared to others should make his achievements that much more impressive in my opinion!
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ok you win, clearly Anderson is average at best as the soon to be highest wicket taking seamer ever, and if you played the same number of test matches you'd have 500+ wickets too. Cook is also average as the 5th highest run scorer of all time, and again if you had as many matches you'd be part of 4 ashes wins and score over 12400 runs too.
95% of cricket writers and experts are wrong too and have no idea what they are talking about rating Anderson and cook, how stupid they are!
Cricket writers that are British are irrelevant is international recognition. Cook gets some which is merited for his efforts in Ashes 2010-11 and India 2012 which are a feather in his cap.
Anderson gets little to no international recognition as he's a home town bully.
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Cricket writers that are British are irrelevant is international recognition. Cook gets some which is merited for his efforts in Ashes 2010-11 and India 2012 which are a feather in his cap.
Anderson gets little to no international recognition as he's a home town bully.
a plethora of cricket writers that are not British have lauded Anderson as the best swing bowler of the modern era, I assume you are not British? because whenever the English cricket team is mentioned you pipe up and give (crap) reasons as to why people are "average"
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a plethora of cricket writers that are not British have lauded Anderson as the best swing bowler of the modern era, I assume you are not British? because whenever the English cricket team is mentioned you pipe up and give (crap) reasons as to why people are "average"
Hes just full of what hes spouting ;)
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Hes just full of what hes spouting ;)
hahaha :D
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Cricket writers that are British are irrelevant is international recognition. Cook gets some which is merited for his efforts in Ashes 2010-11 and India 2012 which are a feather in his cap.
Anderson gets little to no international recognition as he's a home town bully.
Oh come on
Anderson is one of the better swing bowlers to have played the game. The greatest?? Probably not but hes one of the best.
Cook, sure hes declined (this test proves how much his mental powers have declined as hes suddnely the cook of old) but hes the last of a breed that we shall probably never see again. Is he the greatest ?? Probably not , but hes one of Englands best and hes shown that its not about talent or being the biggest ball striker .. its about knowing your game and sticking to it..
The modern batsmen, especially stokes, Bairstow, buttler, root and co could learn a lot
Well done Cook, fantastic career and Anderson will also deserve praise when he calls time within the next 12 months
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If you want a like for like comparison it's Steyn vs Anderson. And it's still a no contest
Steyn was the greatest of his generation but Anderson is one of the best of the same generation. Anderson is slower and so has longevity, meaning more wickets .. add to that being a swing bowler in englsnd but.. but.. hes also bowled well abroad.
Steyn vs Anderson isnt really a debate.. both are top of their generation in different ways
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Cook, sure hes declined (this test proves how much his mental powers have declined as hes suddnely the cook of old) but hes the last of a breed that we shall probably never see again. Is he the greatest ?? Probably not , but hes one of Englands best and hes shown that its not about talent or being the biggest ball striker .. its about knowing your game and sticking to it..
Exactly. We just saw one of the last greats left of this discipline, of Test opening, call it a day. It saddened me to see him leave the ground. I wish he had broken all records before retiring. So is life.
I just don't see any of these modern batsmen having a long career like Cook. Root and Kohli with all their talent have captaincy and 3-format pressures which will break their bodies down.
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A lot of pish being talked on this thread just because Cook doesn't have a lovely cover drive or and Anderson can't bowl 90mph+ (Although in his early years he could!) doesn't mean they are both aren't or will be legends of the game. When Anderson decides to hangs up the boots I'm not sure we will quite appreciate how good they both are/were especially as an Englishmen there records are unlikely to ever be beaten.
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This below is beautiful, I'm trying not to cry
https://en.reddit.com/r/Cricket/comments/9en6e8/alastair_cooks_last_century_with_celine_dion/?ref=share&ref_source=link
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What no one has mentioned is that root looked like root today.. why?? Because he has someone at the other end scoring runs and.. more crucially .. he wasnt the man in the spot light..
Is that telling or is it jut coincidence?!?!
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Is Glen MGrath a legend? Because Jimmy is just about to overtake him as the leading test wicket taker for a fast bowler. And he had to bowl to Aussie batsmen. Jimmy will no doubt be remembered among the greats. And massive credit to him for the life he must lead in order to stay fit for so long. Not easy for a quick.
As for Chef - A good number of players around the world have had massive natural talent for hitting a cricket ball and all the shots in the book but not been able to apply that to international test success. Cook has worked bloody hard to develop what he needed to his game to the point where he is probably in the top 5 of opening batsmen in world history.
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If Jimmy isn't a legend because "he took most of his wickets with a Dukes ball on a green tops" how come Cook's efforts aren't receiving more praise? Seeing as he was batting on the same green tops against Dukes for most of his games doesn't that make his average of 45 more impressive, as you can't claim he's a flat track bully...
Whatever nonsense is spouted from behind a keyboard, they're both legends. England will miss Chef, the same as they'll inevitably miss Jimmy when he hangs up his bowling boots in the future. Perhaps it will take the retirement of the legends for people to realise what they're missing :)
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Perhaps it will take the retirement of the legends for people to realise what they're missing :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94bdMSCdw20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94bdMSCdw20)
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If Jimmy isn't a legend because "he took most of his wickets with a Dukes ball on a green tops" how come Cook's efforts aren't receiving more praise? Seeing as he was batting on the same green tops against Dukes for most of his games doesn't that make his average of 45 more impressive, as you can't claim he's a flat track bully...
Whatever nonsense is spouted from behind a keyboard, they're both legends. England will miss Chef, the same as they'll inevitably miss Jimmy when he hangs up his bowling boots in the future. Perhaps it will take the retirement of the legends for people to realise what they're missing :)
Cook had his best performances away from home unless you're still under the impression that India and Australia belong to queen and country...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94bdMSCdw20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94bdMSCdw20)
's
And those who want a more modern incarnation there's the Counting Crows version
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Cook had his best performances away from home unless you're still under the impression that India and Australia belong to queen and country...
Cook's Test career in England:
89 matches, 155 innings
6,586 runs at 44.37
32 x 50's
15 x 100's
Highest score 294
3 MOM
1 MOS
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Cook's Test career in England:
89 matches, 155 innings
6,586 runs at 44.37
32 x 50's
15 x 100's
Highest score 294
3 MOM
1 MOS
Don't think you understand the concept of better away from home
100s: 18
50s: 25
Average: 46.48
Runs: 5904
He scored 100s more frequently away from home in considerably fewer matches
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Very sad to think that we won't be watching Cook opening up for England anymore, but I'm really glad he got a fairytale ending - a great send off for a selfless servant of the game who damn sure made the most of his ability to play at the highest level for 12 years. No amount of keyboard warrior bullcrap on here can take that away from him and the amount of ex-pro's/adversaries who have come out and congratulated him speaks volumes for him as a man and a player.
The same for Jimmy, hoping he breaks McGrath's record tomorrow, and I'm sure Glenn himself would be the first to congratulate him. I couldn't give two hoots if wind up merchants on here think he's nowhere near the calibre of Dale Steyn, I'm glad that I've been able to watch him bowl over the years and marvel at his control, skill and longevity.
To be honest, I don't think anyone of us on here can really have a valid opinion on why Jimmy isn't as good as Steyn, or Cook isn't as good as so and so. The fact is these guys have made it to the absolute top of their game and been such consistent performers over so many years. Until you've reached the pinnacle and seen the sheer drive, ambition, guts and sacrifices they have made to get where they are, the comments of wind up merchants like LeChiffre etc are worthless. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, it's a free world after all but in years to come Cook will be able to look back on a test career that lasted over a decade at the top with immense pride, whereas all some of the people who post comments on here can do is look back at all the bitterness and bile they've written.
It's been a pleasure to watch this series, it's been thoroughly entertaining watching players like Kohli, Anderson, Curran, Stokes, Pujara, Ashwin etc all and it's going to be an interesting next few years for this England team.
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Don't think you understand the concept of better away from home
100s: 18
50s: 25
Average: 46.48
Runs: 5904
He scored 100s more frequently away from home in considerably fewer matches
So he was pony at home on those green tops against the Dukes ball?
I don't think you understand the question I was asking, but don't let that interrupt your trolling session.
Have a nice evening
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So he was pony at home on those green tops against the Dukes ball?
I don't think you understand the question I was asking, but don't let that interrupt your trolling session.
Have a nice evening
You seem obsessed with stats when you can't make a valid point when using your cherry picked stats.
The most telling stat about Cook in home matches in that in 49 innings against Australia and South Africa, two countries that supposedly set the bench mark for fast bowling in the modern era, Cook mustered just one century. Therefore he was exposed by premier top class bowlers.
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To be honest, I don't think anyone of us on here can really have a valid opinion on why Jimmy isn't as good as Steyn
As most on here are obsessed with stats here's a couple just for you
Steyn better average, better strike rate, more wickets per game. Smash dunk case closed
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They get better each time but it always comes out sooner or later doesn't it... I wonder what the next Gerry incarnation will be? The names are definitely getting more interesting each time too, maybe we need a forum book on which country he'll be from next 😂
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This thread is really putting me off of the forum.
Thought this would be a celebration of an excellent opening batsman, but its just turned into a trolling session.
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Haters always gonna hate.
Just shake it off. ;)
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Soulman's claim that Anderson will end up as one of the top 10 ever in the history of cricket is a load of absolute codswallop.
Le Chiffre/Gerry's claim that Cook isn't/wasn't absolutely flipping fantastic is also a load of absolute codswallop.
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As an Australian, I will freely admit that over the years I have absolutely loved watching Cook bat, throw all the stats you want around, the way that man conducted himself on and off the field is a credit to the game and it will be all the poorer for his leaving. Absolutely chuffed that he got his farewell hundred.
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I loved watching Cook bat . He was one of those guys where you could watch him from the start of his innings and think 'he's not that pretty , technique wise' or 'he's not as talented as others' etc .Then , as his innings would progress, you'd get countless reminders of how far wrong you were for contemplating such things . He had his limitations , and for the most part , played beautifully within those limits. I wont ever forget his cut shot or shots off his pads . I won't ever forget him absolutely smashing us in the 2011 ashes series either.....he was the cause of so much aussie misery that season !
I like the way he conducted himself through his career , he seemed a good , decent , honest bloke . No fuss .
I always thought he was going to continue playing for years to come . He easily could have , if his heart was still in it. He seemed to be able to get himself up , mentally, for this test ....but maybe that's a one off , and only he knows if it has become too difficult to do that on a test to test basis now . Nonetheless, part of me is thinking 'see, you can still do it , so dont retire ' , but if it has become a drain, or stressful, to prepare for test cricket then he is doing the right thing. He has left leaving the fans wanting more and giving them a reminder of the talent he is/was. He will be one of the few that get to reminisce about the end of their career and think they left on the right note.
Hope he goes gangbusters in county cricket for the next few years .
Compliments to the Chef !!!!!
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What a tremendous send off for a wonderful batsman and an even better man by all accounts.
Thank you for everything, Alastair!
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Smash dunk
What is a smash dunk?
Anyway, back to not arguing with strangers on the internet. Thought the Indians were very respectful yesterday, both when Cook was out and when he left the field
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Soulman's claim that Anderson will end up as one of the top 10 ever in the history of cricket is a load of absolute codswallop.
Le Chiffre/Gerry's claim that Cook isn't/wasn't absolutely flipping fantastic is also a load of absolute codswallop.
Hate to disappoint mate but he is already joint 5th and about to to 4th in the list of most test wickets in the history of the game.
Im sure some people have lost the plot and forgotten how cricket works, bowers take wickets and batsmens score runs to win games.
Cook is one of the most prolific run scorers in the history or test cricket
Anderson is one of the most prolific wicket takers and actually about to be the most prolific quick bowler in the history of the game.
So basically all time greats by definition
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Hate to disappoint mate but he is already joint 5th and about to to 4th in the list of most test wickets in the history of the game.
Im sure some people have lost the plot and forgotten how cricket works, bowers take wickets and batsmens score runs to win games.
Cook is one of the most prolific run scorers in the history or test cricket
Anderson is one of the most prolific wicket takers and actually about to be the most prolific quick bowler in the history of the game.
So basically all time greats by definition
And that's the end of that
There is no argument against that
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I think yesterday was the most enjoyable day I've ever had at cricket.
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I think yesterday was the most enjoyable day I've ever had at cricket.
England fans should really cherish the day as, looking at the new talent, I suspect days like these might just be an urban tale in the future.
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England fans should really cherish the day as, looking at the new talent, I suspect days like these might just be an urban tale in the future.
That seems a bit strong, there's plenty of young talent in the side already (just none of it opening batsmen) but these things can change very quickly.
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I think yesterday was the most enjoyable day I've ever had at cricket.
Best 37 I've spent all year, probably
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I loved watching Cook bat . He was one of those guys where you could watch him from the start of his innings and think 'he's not that pretty , technique wise' or 'he's not as talented as others' etc .Then , as his innings would progress, you'd get countless reminders of how far wrong you were for contemplating such things . He had his limitations , and for the most part , played beautifully within those limits. I wont ever forget his cut shot or shots off his pads . I won't ever forget him absolutely smashing us in the 2011 ashes series either.....he was the cause of so much aussie misery that season !
I like the way he conducted himself through his career , he seemed a good , decent , honest bloke . No fuss .
I always thought he was going to continue playing for years to come . He easily could have , if his heart was still in it. He seemed to be able to get himself up , mentally, for this test ....but maybe that's a one off , and only he knows if it has become too difficult to do that on a test to test basis now . Nonetheless, part of me is thinking 'see, you can still do it , so dont retire ' , but if it has become a drain, or stressful, to prepare for test cricket then he is doing the right thing. He has left leaving the fans wanting more and giving them a reminder of the talent he is/was. He will be one of the few that get to reminisce about the end of their career and think they left on the right note.
Hope he goes gangbusters in county cricket for the next few years .
Compliments to the Chef !!!!!
All good stuff but listening to Nasser as Captain he could have spoke up to keep Peterson in his team.
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All good stuff but listening to Nasser as Captain he could have spoke up to keep Peterson in his team.
most of the forum seems to quote George Dobell and his articles as gospel, I actually like him myself.....Cooks role in the KP affair is slowly being revealed courtesy of Dobell and others.
Cook proposed the most sensible option at the time, the only option at the time which was workable, and yet bore the brunt of angry fans and some press guys intent on someone to blame....
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England fans should really cherish the day as, looking at the new talent, I suspect days like these might just be an urban tale in the future.
What nonsense!
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Am I missing something?
No Rashid to bowl at all in this innings yet, as certain other people get smacked around the park.
Is he injured?
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Am I missing something?
No Rashid to bowl at all in this innings yet, as certain other people get smacked around the park.
Is he injured?
Rumour was before the series that Root didn't want him in the team. Given the amount he's bowled, particularly compared to Moeen, seems safe to say it was a good quality rumour! Will be interesting to see how selection goes over the winter with Leach to presumably join the squad for SL.
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money for old rope this summer for Rashid, cash per overs bowled will be working out well !
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Hate to disappoint mate but he is already joint 5th and about to to 4th in the list of most test wickets in the history of the game.
Im sure some people have lost the plot and forgotten how cricket works, bowers take wickets and batsmens score runs to win games.
Cook is one of the most prolific run scorers in the history or test cricket
Anderson is one of the most prolific wicket takers and actually about to be the most prolific quick bowler in the history of the game.
So basically all time greats by definition
And that's the end of that
There is no argument against that
Is it though?
Again, this is the statement from Soulsman to which I took exception:
"both will finish there career as in the top 5 or 10 ever in the history of the game"
I didn't say Anderson was rubbish. I said the idea that he is one of the top 10 (or five!) greatest cricketers to ever live is nonsense.
He's not as good a bowler as Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Steyn, Donald, Pollock, Wasim, Lillee, Hadlee, Imran, Waqar and that's ten or eleven off the top of my head. That's ten or eleven better quick bowlers without going back through "the history of the game" and just guys that I remember watching.
There is much to admire about James Anderson, including some of the things that haters use to drag him down like his incredible fitness and longevity which is remarkable for a quick bowler along with the way that he has continued to evolve and improve through his career. There aren't many that have kept on picking up new skills in the second half of their career the way Anderson has and he's absolutely a very skilful and intelligent bowler.
He's just not one of the top 10 quicks to ever play the game and you can point to the wickets column all you like but it doesn't change that. Unless you're also going to tell me that Zaheer Khan is better than Joel Garner because he's got loads more wickets, five-fers and ten wickets in a match which Big Bird never did?
(I'm going to whisper this but Darren Gough was better than Anderson as well)
Cook's still a bloody hero though and is absolutely one of the greatest.
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Am I missing something?
No Rashid to bowl at all in this innings yet, as certain other people get smacked around the park.
Is he injured?
No, he's just rubbish. Unless you're bowling spin from both ends there's no sensible reason you wouldn't just bowl Moeen instead.
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England fans should really cherish the day as, looking at the new talent, I suspect days like these might just be an urban tale in the future.
I've heard this from too many fan bases to count and the doom and gloom is never that bad. Wait till Woakes is fit again next summer and takes the new ball. Even seniorplayer will be purring with delight!
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Who reckons cook will get a bowl if theyre 9 down before tea?
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Who reckons cook will get a bowl if theyre 9 down before tea?
I will be gutted if Cook doesn't get a chance to bowl at Ishant.
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Rashid has bowled 73 overs this entire series. Jadeja has bowled 77 overs in one game.
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Rashid bowling pies on a day 5 wicket. Root rather bowl himself
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I've heard this from too many fan bases to count and the doom and gloom is never that bad. Wait till Woakes is fit again next summer and takes the new ball. Even seniorplayer will be purring with delight!
Woakes ? Not if England find a young quick seamer to give the attack variation during the winter tours with the X factor Ollie Stone maybe.
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Rashid has bowled 73 overs this entire series. Jadeja has bowled 77 overs in one game.
They are saving him for Sri Lanka.
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Is it though?
Again, this is the statement from Soulsman to which I took exception:
"both will finish there career as in the top 5 or 10 ever in the history of the game"
I didn't say Anderson was rubbish. I said the idea that he is one of the top 10 (or five!) greatest cricketers to ever live is nonsense.
He's not as good a bowler as Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Steyn, Donald, Pollock, Wasim, Lillee, Hadlee, Imran, Waqar and that's ten or eleven off the top of my head. That's ten or eleven better quick bowlers without going back through "the history of the game" and just guys that I remember watching.
There is much to admire about James Anderson, including some of the things that haters use to drag him down like his incredible fitness and longevity which is remarkable for a quick bowler along with the way that he has continued to evolve and improve through his career. There aren't many that have kept on picking up new skills in the second half of their career the way Anderson has and he's absolutely a very skilful and intelligent bowler.
He's just not one of the top 10 quicks to ever play the game and you can point to the wickets column all you like but it doesn't change that. Unless you're also going to tell me that Zaheer Khan is better than Joel Garner because he's got loads more wickets, five-fers and ten wickets in a match which Big Bird never did?
(I'm going to whisper this but Darren Gough was better than Anderson as well)
Cook's still a bloody hero though and is absolutely one of the greatest.
The argument used by some in this topic to belittle Cooks achievements is that he has batted on modern day pancakes rather than the dodgy wickets of yesteryear. Surely the reverse applies when comparing a bowler still going in 2018 against some of the ones on your list?
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This is depressing
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Is Rashid bowling himself out of the Sri Lanka line up?
It's under 5 an over..... going to be all about the new ball
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Have to say im not Rashids biggest fan but Roots management and use of him as a bowler is horrendous. If someone has been picked in the team, unanimously according to Ed Smith yesterday, at least give him the best chance to succeed
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With England having runs on the board unlike previous matches this series .Root is giving Rashid a bowl.
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With England having runs on the board unlike previous matches this series .Root is giving Rashid a bowl.
At the time of posting Ali the "second spinner" has bowled 17 overs.
Rashid the "frontline spinner" has bowled 6 overs, the same as Captain Root has given himself with his part time offies.
Hardly "giving him a bowl" all things considered
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Bairstow standing up to the great Anderson! Now I have seen everything!
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At the time of posting Ali the "second spinner" has bowled 17 overs.
Rashid the "frontline spinner" has bowled 6 overs, the same as Captain Root has given himself with his part time offies.
Hardly "giving him a bowl" all things considered
Nope, seems a token gesture which cant be good for any bowlers confidence. Anyone think Ed Smith may not have been telling the truth when he said Root wanted Rashid to play?
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Sigh
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Nope, seems a token gesture which cant be good for any bowlers confidence. Anyone think Ed Smith may not have been telling the truth when he said Root wanted Rashid to play?
I have said it from the start, there is no way that Root trusts Rashid's bowling, he would have bowled a lot more overs in the series as he has had ample opportunities to throw him the ball. But can you blame Root? Why would you, Rashid is bowling pies with absolutely no control whatsoever.
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The argument used by some in this topic to belittle Cooks achievements is that he has batted on modern day pancakes rather than the dodgy wickets of yesteryear. Surely the reverse applies when comparing a bowler still going in 2018 against some of the ones on your list?
You don't even need to compare with players playing on uncovered wickets 70 years ago. I named almost a dozen better quick bowlers from the last 25/30 years.
Which openers in the last 25-30 years would you place as high as Cook? Hayden, Smith, Sehwag, Anwar, Gooch...it's not a big list. Cook has been successful in more/struggled in fewer places than Hayden and Sehwag so at worst Cook is top 4.
Do the best quick bowlers that have played in the last 25-30 years and Anderson barely sneaks into the top 10. Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh, McGrath, Steyn, Pollock, Donald are all definitely better than Anderson.
So again, is he crap? No, that's nonsense.
Is he top 5 or 10 of all time? No, that's also nonsense.
Not being top 10 bestest thing in the history of the universe is not a criticism. We shouldn't have to resort to hyperbole when evaluating people. There is a tiny, almost imperceptible area on the spectrum between GOAT and utterly useless.
It's OK to be 'just' really bloody good.
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Have to say im not Rashids biggest fan but Roots management and use of him as a bowler is horrendous. If someone has been picked in the team, unanimously according to Ed Smith yesterday, at least give him the best chance to succeed
Same here, I have not been shy with my criticism of Rashid but that doesn't change the fact that no English captain in my memory has had any idea of how to handle spinners. It doesn't help that England have seemed a bit nervous ever since these two settled in, just give Rashid 8-10 overs on the bounce. Let them keep playing shots, eventually something will bounce or keep low out of the rough and create a chance. If he goes for 80 from those 10 overs then take him out of the attack and let him stand at fine leg for the rest of the day but you have to at least give him enough rope to hang himself.
There is no way India win this, because if that ever becomes a possibility then they can just have Anderson/Broad/Curran/Stokes hang the ball miles outside off stump and kill the run rate. So if you can't lose the game, it's better to give Rashid two extra overs rather than two overs too few.
Having said all that, Anderson will go past McGrath in a minute and England will probably wrap this up in the next five overs and it'll be moot.
It's funny having listened to Bob Willis spend the last couple of months putting up a half-hearted defence of Rashid with "Leg-spinners come into their own when they have 400 to defend and they can attack and England haven't been scoring that many runs this summer" only for England to score that many runs and then Rashid doesn't get a bowl.
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wait how is that leg byes
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India are going for this...... going to get interesting!
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Pant is about to throw it away to Rashid if he keeps on like this
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Little bit of the late Phillip Hughes in Pant's batting. Good square on the off side and likes the leg side yahoo.
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Well that turned a bit
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Fair play Rash, decent nut that...
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And thats why you have a leg spinner on day 5
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That's why wicket taker Rashids in the team
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That's why wicket taker Rashids in the team
Woakes would have had him before 49, not 149 ;)
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Has That shot by Pant lost this match for India.
New ball for Jimmy anytime soon.
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One ball gets rashid on the plane to Sri Lanka
....
....
But what a ball!
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Don't fancy Sharma lasting long if he's going to keep on using his bat to balls pitching in the rough a foot outside leg stump
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Rash is is an attacking leg spinner. He will always concede runs, but will also take wickets. Most captains dont know how to deal with that (they want control), but Root is especially bad.
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Rash is is an attacking leg spinner. He will always concede runs, but will also take wickets. Most captains dont know how to deal with that (they want control), but Root is especially bad.
Nonsense, there's no such thing as an 'attacking' spinner. On a 5th day track you want your spinner just putting it on the spot over and over again, is that attacking or defending or just good bowling?
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Under used Sam C with the break through.
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Nonsense, there's no such thing as an 'attacking' spinner. On a 5th day track you want your spinner just putting it on the spot over and over again, is that attacking or defending or just good bowling?
Guys with as much variety as rashid are not the put it on the spot type. Leg spinners always lack accuracy (Warne was an aberration and a freak of nature)
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Kudos to Anderson for refusing to go past McGrath because he doesn't want to take the spotlight away from Cook. What a mate.
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JIMMY JIMMY JIMMY ANDERSON!
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I take it back, what a selfish git
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Jimmy!
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Rash is is an attacking leg spinner. He will always concede runs, but will also take wickets. Most captains dont know how to deal with that (they want control), but Root is especially bad.
not many points on this series where weve had enough on the board to be able to bowl Tashid when hes going at 5 an over.
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Guys with as much variety as rashid are not the put it on the spot type. Leg spinners always lack accuracy (Warne was an aberration and a freak of nature)
For sure leggies are less accurate generally but that's because bowling legspin's more difficult, not because legspinners are all rabid wicket hunters. More accuracy makes you a better bowler - whether you're trying to get wickets, contain, defend, anything. All very well saying 'Oh Rashid is an attacking legspinner so we can't expect him to be consistent' because all those classic test match spinner's wickets you get when one pops up to the man under the lid are difficult to take when the man who would be under the lid is at deep cow. Maybe we'll see Rashid come good in Sri Lanka, but this series hasn't shown anything different from when he's played tests before - at test level he's a second spinner at best sadly.
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Cook is a very lucky man! Nothing inappropriate has happened during his last week as a Test cricketer. He leaves on a very high note.
Anderson is probably also mulling over his last series.
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Anderson is probably also mulling over his last series.
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Quite possibly after next summers Ashes series and quite possibly both himself and Broad at the end of that series
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For sure leggies are less accurate generally but that's because bowling legspin's more difficult, not because legspinners are all rabid wicket hunters. More accuracy makes you a better bowler - whether you're trying to get wickets, contain, defend, anything. All very well saying 'Oh Rashid is an attacking legspinner so we can't expect him to be consistent' because all those classic test match spinner's wickets you get when one pops up to the man under the lid are difficult to take when the man who would be under the lid is at deep cow. Maybe we'll see Rashid come good in Sri Lanka, but this series hasn't shown anything different from when he's played tests before - at test level he's a second spinner at best sadly.
If you watch a certain 'debate' the resident grumpy old player is saying unless you consistently hit 400 ....and I presume then have fielders around the bat.....a leg spinner who gives away runs(they all do Warne was just a one off ) is just a luxury and two spinners is not needed in this Country.
It's hard to judge Rashid on this series he has hardly bowled on a wearing pitch the definition of 'attacking spinner' is indeed debatable as you point out...
Would Panesar and Swann and Giles all be attacking spinners landing it in the right place or a worn pitch? Seems like a yes to that to me....
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Sam Curran man of the series!!
Baffling they left him out for that one game. His batting often seemed to be the difference and he had a knack off taking important wickets and breakthroughs.
Hope he does well in Sri Lanka...... if he can get a game. If we are playing 3 spinners, anderson, broad and stokes as a batsmen and third seamer, where does he fit in??
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Sam Curran man of the series!!
Baffling they left him out for that one game. His batting often seemed to be the difference and he had a knack off taking important wickets and breakthroughs.
Hope he does well in Sri Lanka...... if he can get a game. If we are playing 3 spinners, anderson, broad and stokes as a batsmen and third seamer, where does he fit in??
If you look at what Australia did to us in the last ashes series there main bowling unit, Starc, Hazelwood and Cummins all had a good long rest ( I believe some injury related I believe) there is some logic to resting Anderson and broad for Sri Lanka after a hard summer. Now I doubt that would happen as I suspect both will want to play and England do not seem to rest players but it would give a great chance to see next generation such as Sam Curran, Ollie Pope, Burns, Bess front and not so sure whats in the young and upcoming quick bowling department as well. In addition you retain the likes of Jennings, Butler, Rashid,
Overall our young guns have done well
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Strange to see criticism of Rashid. Given the limited opportunities he had, he took his wickets at a better average and strike rate than both Ashwin and Jadega whilst going at 3 1/2 an over which seems pretty solid to me. Fitness permitting , a shoe in for the winter
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If you look at what Australia did to us in the last ashes series there main bowling unit, Starc, Hazelwood and Cummins all had a good long rest ( I believe some injury related I believe) there is some logic to resting Anderson and broad for Sri Lanka after a hard summer. Now I doubt that would happen as I suspect both will want to play and England do not seem to rest players but it would give a great chance to see next generation such as Sam Curran, Ollie Pope, Burns, Bess front and not so sure whats in the young and upcoming quick bowling department as well. In addition you retain the likes of Jennings, Butler, Rashid,
Overall our young guns have done well
I wouldn't mind them rotating Anderson and Broad during the tour of Sri Lanka, depending on how the pitches over there behave and the resulting workload. They won't rest both but giving one of them a break at a time seems sensible.
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Sam Curran man of the series!!
Baffling they left him out for that one game. His batting often seemed to be the difference and he had a knack off taking important wickets and breakthroughs.
Hope he does well in Sri Lanka...... if he can get a game. If we are playing 3 spinners, anderson, broad and stokes as a batsmen and third seamer, where does he fit in??
Up the batting order according g to some pundits. As high as 3 or 5...
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I do hope Jimmy doesnt retire for a long, long time
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I do hope Jimmy doesnt retire for a long, long time
I feel it's more likely now that Cook has gone, the old guard is slowly stepping away and with Anderson being 36 I'd say he has at max 1.5 years left.
He has most wickets for any seamer in the world, his best mate will no longer be with him on tours etc and what else has he really to accomplish?
Personally I think his retirement will come after the end of the Ashes next year.
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Hard to tell with Jimmy, he's at the age now where a bad injury would probably end it but on the other hand he plays the bare minimum of cricket outside tests these days and his performance has only got better over the past few years. Could easily just come down to how long he fancies going on for. Hopefully plenty longer but after the Ashes would seem an obvious point.
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I feel it's more likely now that Cook has gone, the old guard is slowly stepping away and with Anderson being 36 I'd say he has at max 1.5 years left.
He has most wickets for any seamer in the world, his best mate will no longer be with him on tours etc and what else has he really to accomplish?
Personally I think his retirement will come after the end of the Ashes next year.
Yeah I can see that being the case, seems logical. Ultimately its up to his desire and body, if its not in 18 months then cant be much longer as a seamer on the cusp of 40 at international cricket doesnt happen. Personally cant see England replacing him for a long time because bowlers with the amount of skill he has arent knocking around.
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Congratulation to England for a successful summer season.
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Jimmy can overtake Kumble
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Any intell on bat used by Risabh Pant?
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Jimmy can overtake Kumble
Jimmy needs 56 to overtake Kumble.
There are a possible 12 tests before the end of the Ashes next summer (3 vs SL, 3 vs WI, 1 vs IRE, 5 vs AUS).
So that would mean if he was to retire at the end of the Ashes he would have to average 4.7 wickets each test (if he played all of them) - so it's doable
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All the current teams in the world are only good in their home conditions...so how good or bad your season was really depends on where you played your cricket.
Funny thing is that only when India whitewash teams at home, people cry about the conditions and the pitches.
The scoreline reads 4-1 but the fact is that India fought well through out. Bad selection policy probably played the biggest role in the series defeat. But overall, there were quite a few positives that came out from the Eng series.
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All the current teams in the world are only good in their home conditions...so how good or bad your season was really depends on where you played your cricket.
Funny thing is that only when India whitewash teams at home, people cry about the conditions and the pitches.
The scoreline reads 4-1 but the fact is that India fought well through out. Bad selection policy probably played the biggest role in the series defeat. But overall, there were quite a few positives that came out from the Eng series.
spot on this, that's why its really impossible to tell the worlds best team. totally agree about this being a close series, it could easily of been 2-2.
England lose 0-4 in India and win 4-1 in England, you could say exactly the same about the Ashes series, we were well beaten away and comfortable winners at home.
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It's interesting with Anderson that until recently he was talking about next year's Ashes as the time he was looking to head out of international cricket whereas more recently he has started talking about carrying on as long as he can. It would seem that his enthusiasm for the game is stronger now then it ever has been. Combined with the fact they the last 2 years have been the best of his career and that his workload is well managed, I wouldn't be surprised to see him play for a couple more years
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The Ashes next year would be a natural point, were we to win them - but I think that is questionnable. He may therefore keep going and see what comes next.
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It's interesting with Anderson that until recently he was talking about next year's Ashes as the time he was looking to head out of international cricket whereas more recently he has started talking about carrying on as long as he can. It would seem that his enthusiasm for the game is stronger now then it ever has been. Combined with the fact they the last 2 years have been the best of his career and that his workload is well managed, I wouldn't be surprised to see him play for a couple more years
Jimmy's career average - 26.84. Jimmy's average in the past three years - 19.9! Not surprised he's feeling good about carrying on really ha.
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Non-spinning bowlers older than Jimmy who've taken test 10fers:
40 SF Barnes (14-144) Eng v SA Durban 1913-14
37 HHH Johnson (10-96) WI v Eng Kingston 1947-48
37 CA Walsh (10-117) WI v Eng Lord's 2000
37 RJ Hadlee (10-88) NZ v Ind Bombay 1988-89
36 KR Miller (10-152) Aus v Eng Lord's 1956
Would love to see him get to the top of that list!
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Non-spinning bowlers older than Jimmy who've taken test 10fers:
40 SF Barnes (14-144) Eng v SA Durban 1913-14
37 HHH Johnson (10-96) WI v Eng Kingston 1947-48
37 CA Walsh (10-117) WI v Eng Lord's 2000
37 RJ Hadlee (10-88) NZ v Ind Bombay 1988-89
36 KR Miller (10-152) Aus v Eng Lord's 1956
Would love to see him get to the top of that list!
I'd like to see Jimmy become the Misbah ul Haq of fast bowlers .
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I'd like to see Jimmy become the Misbah ul Haq of fast bowlers .
Yes I would love this too!How old was Misbah when he retired-42?
For a while Anderson was bowling at cones when the rubbish ECB coaches tried to ruin his action-hooefully this will add a few more years and another 150 wickets!Stay healthy Jimmy Jimmy!
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Jimmy bowling at cones during breaks in play was an absolute low point for English cricket.
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Love Jimmy. Absolute class. Have you all read this http://www.espncricinfo.com/story?id=24660458&glenn-mcgrath-dale-steyn-better-bowlers-james-anderson= (http://www.espncricinfo.com/story?id=24660458&glenn-mcgrath-dale-steyn-better-bowlers-james-anderson=)
And for the fast bowlers, some great advice here:
One of McGrath's training methods that Anderson incorporated into his own preparations was bowling with an old ball, in order to equip himself to be able to succeed in unfavourable conditions.
"I heard him say once that he practised for when the ball didn't swing," Anderson said. "So if it did swing, it was a bonus. That philosophy has been a big part of my development. You so often see bowlers pick out a lovely new ball from the bag at nets and it looks great when it swings in the air and nips off the seam with batsmen playing and missing. What about when the ball is 60 overs old, the sun is blazing down, the pitch is flat and there's not a hint of movement? So, at practice, I often take an old ball that looks like it's been chewed by a dog and work on variations and aiming for the top of off stump. That's the quickest way to improve your skills."
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Jimmy bowling at cones during breaks in play was an absolute low point for English cricket.
Shame English cricket didnt learn from their mistake- did the same with Steven Finn, and are probably doing the same with Mason Crane.
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Love Jimmy. Absolute class. Have you all read this [url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story?id=24660458&glenn-mcgrath-dale-steyn-better-bowlers-james-anderson=[/url] ([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story?id=24660458&glenn-mcgrath-dale-steyn-better-bowlers-james-anderson=[/url])
And for the fast bowlers, some great advice here:
One of McGrath's training methods that Anderson incorporated into his own preparations was bowling with an old ball, in order to equip himself to be able to succeed in unfavourable conditions.
"I heard him say once that he practised for when the ball didn't swing," Anderson said. "So if it did swing, it was a bonus. That philosophy has been a big part of my development. You so often see bowlers pick out a lovely new ball from the bag at nets and it looks great when it swings in the air and nips off the seam with batsmen playing and missing. What about when the ball is 60 overs old, the sun is blazing down, the pitch is flat and there's not a hint of movement? So, at practice, I often take an old ball that looks like it's been chewed by a dog and work on variations and aiming for the top of off stump. That's the quickest way to improve your skills."
Making your training harder than the actual match is sound advice for every sportsperson. Whether that's getting bowlers to bowl at you from 20 yards or bowlers running back to their mark and bowling to get them used to doing it when they're physically exhausted, it all helps.
On a tangential note, can bowlers stop bowling front foot no-balls in the nets please? Nothing winds me up more, you're just setting yourself up to mess it up in a match.