Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: hit4six on February 14, 2010, 10:54:48 PM
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This is topic of conversation that I sparked up with a family member of mine who is passionate about cricket.
How custom made are the bats we buy in England from companies claiming to be custom made?
PLEASE NOTE, THROUGHOUT THIS TOPIC, PRETEND YOU ARE BUYING A CUSTOM MADE BAT!
A definition, in my mind, of a custom made cricket bat company is where the customer can get a bat made to the correct specifications when it comes to PRESSING, Handle shape, amount of grains, middle position and profile.
If I said for instance that I would like a custom made bat from one of our custom companies in the UK, who advertise as custom made bat companies (the likes of H4L, Redback, Warsop etc), how many could get a bat to my EXACT specifications?
The bats we buy from India are pressed, shaped, and made to whatever you want, a bat pressed and made to how you want, and providing you overcome that communication barrier, I know for a fact that the customer can get exactly what they want. For instance, if I wanted a bat pressed as lightly as possible to ensure a large profile, 30mm+ edges at 2.10. If you contacted a supplier or manufacturer in India, I reckon this specification could be made easily. How many places in the UK could do this?
So how many of our advertised, "custom companies", can actually make a custom made bat, where the user can specify the amount they would like the bat pressed, exact profile and the exact finish they would like?
Are we being tricked into buying these "custom made" bats for £200+ when in reality, the company is buying clefts handled and pressed, and simply finishing the bats?
With the correct contacts, could we get the exact same bat made for us, in the sub continent, for half the price, which in reality, could be more custom made than any bat in England?
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I see your point but consider this - in this Indian factory they have 10,000 bats - likelihood is that one of these will suit your specifications and you get sent out a bat that has not been custom made but just picked out from a large batch. Secondly, pressing a bat soft doesnt mean you can get a large profile at all - the truth is that you ask for a soft pressing (dont know why as it would mean the bat will play poorly) and you will likely receive a standard press (are they really going to change the press settings for you??? perhaps, but unlikely). Thirdly, returns to these companies can sometimes be a pain and take some time, it is easier to go back to your local batmaker and sort out any issues with regards to weight and finishing etc.
When you say exact finish - what do you mean? Buffed? Unbuffed?
I understand what you are saying, but i think you overlook the work of many of the good batmakers in england. Indian batmakers are undoubtedly very skilled but i just find it hard to believe that they will entirely custom make you a bat like you mention above.
Some people are just finishers and they seem to sell well on this forum - dont think it is a trick, bats are just cheaper to produce in India
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For instance, if I wanted a bat pressed as lightly as possible to ensure a large profile, 30mm+ edges at 2.10. If you contacted a supplier or manufacturer in India, I reckon this specification could be made easily. How many places in the UK could do this?
I think the question is why would you want to do this?! Due to the way they dry their willow your obviously going to get more larger bats.
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I believe these bats in England are custom made because the bat maker specifically has the specs you desire in mind, rather than say for 'AN Other' who simply wants a certain model of bat. Obviously India are always going to have the specs you desire because of the sheer quantity of bats they produce, but the question is who did they have in mind the general or the individual, that for me distinguishes a custom made batmaker from a general one.
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I am not biased or trying to cause argument in any of my responses, just trying to see if we can discuss something that in my eyes is over looked.
Firstly, I agree that yes some manufacturers could have upwards of 5000 bats laying around, and to be honest, I totally agree with what you said on this point about just finding a bat that fits the bill, but I was talking to a forum member (I wont name his name as it would be unfair) but apparently they went to a bat making in England and they had around 15 bats laying around, stickered and ready to go, which apparently had been made some if someone made an order, they could get them sent out quickly. Is that a custom made bat for the customer?
Secondly, I am not interested in getting the bat made to that specs, I was just purely using that as an example. A custom made bat in my eyes will be made so that the pressing is perfect. I can understand what you are saying by not changing the pressing, but thats what a custom made company would do.
I agree with you on the returns, and albeit, thats why I am still slightly and only slightly biased towards English made brands, and yes the indian bat makers look extremely skilled in their field of work.
My final question... is Fusion and Newbery the only 2 bat makers in the country who can make CUSTOM made bats?
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unfortunately its hard to say exactly what goes on in some makers work shops although a large number of bats are simply finished and sold as hand made/custom made. Show me a top bat made in the UK and i will show you a top bat made in India which will be equally as good in every way.
There are poor examples of bats made in both the UK and India and Pakistan however i think most people are aware of the quality available from Sareen Sports and Bas to name a couple so its up to the consumer and perhaps those with a decent level of knowledge will go for the Indian bats and save a good deal of money and others will go for uk made bats as the wrongly believe the quality is better.
A few years back the bats from Asia were at best ok but now they have progressed very well and if bought from a uk dealer like Asad then you get the best of both worlds and thats better than importing direct every day of the week.
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Some makers work shops although a large number of bats are simply finished and sold as hand made/custom made.
Like I said in my previous post, and this is a prime example of what I meant. For a company to tell a customer (a forum member on here) that they had made these bats which were laying around so that when the right order came, or one similar, they could simple send that one out to the customer!! Some people pay £200+ over the internet for a custom made bat, and in all fairness, they dont really know whether it is coming from India, or whether it had been made 3 months ago. I think I would HAVE to go to a workshop to see the bat being made to a) warrant its price tag and b) to ensure it was infact, handmade!
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My final question... is Fusion and Newbery the only 2 bat makers in the country who can make CUSTOM made bats?
Huh what about Gray Nicolls and Hell4Leather must be more too
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I would say the vast majority of bats are not made form a raw cleft, I've seen bats which are at different stages in most makers work shops I've visited and I'm guessing this is aimed at saving time so when a custom order comes in the pick something similar to whats ordered.
From the raw state id say its difficult to say for certain a particular cleft will meet a custom order once its finished hence why they prepare them to different stages and cut down on wasting material. Ive not really got a problem with is along as it meets your requirements and very few makers have offered to make a bat to my exact specification or they want an extraordinary amount of money.
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Gray Nicolls aint a good reference to custom made.
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if your definition of a custom made bat includes pressing then this immediately rules out several companies as this just isnt foesable for them. presses are large, expensive and arent exactly sold in every B+Q. but these such brands that cant press can give you the exact specs you want, grains, middle position, handle type, edge size, spine height etc. to you do these count as custom companies?
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Gray Nicolls aint a good reference to custom made.
Why not he said "Who could make a custom made bat" - GN have that Kranszwatsit bloke their own willow and a press what more do they need to qualify?
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I can understand that some companies cant afford presses, or cant even find room for them, but in my eyes, a custom made bat is where you can specify the amount of pressing you require. Thats why I believe 80% of companies within the UK make handmade cricket bats, not custom made cricket bats.
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What quantifies a handmade cricket bat is another story also Craig!
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Exactly, I know too well what some companies classify as "handmade" so I am not going to go into that one just yet!
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a custom made bat is where you can specify the amount of pressing you require.
Sorry to be argumentative but... why would you require a different amount of pressing. The person pressing the willow surely has the best idea as each willow cleft has an optimum level of pressing.
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im not quite sure why you would want to specify the amount of pressing you give your bat? each cleft has an optimum pressing point if you like, a good 'presser' will achieve this level.
leo beat me to it!
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without doubt the best topic i have herd on here
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I think the question is why would you want to do this?! Due to the way they dry their willow your obviously going to get more larger bats.
hate to say this but look at my ss ton plain grade 1 2lb 6oz 35mm edges crafted as well as my Laver in my eyes
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Different people have different ideas of how much or how little a bat is pressed ? that's also true of the bat makers themselves so its a very valid point in bat making. I'm sure we all know some makers press the bats so that they are extra durable and they take longer to knock in and it cuts down the number of returns a bat pressed too much can ruin a bat as can a bat not pressed enough but what the pros would want in terms of pressing wont be what i want.
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I can understand your point slogger and leo, but lets take a company like Hawk. They are renowned for over pressing there bats, so they last longer, but they take longer to reach their optimum performance level.
So the way I see it, the customer is always right, so if they want a lightly pressed cleft, then they can have it. Thats the idea of a custom made bat!!!
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So the way I see it, the customer is always right, so if they want a lightly pressed cleft, then they can have it. Thats the idea of a custom made bat!!!
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I have to say i agree.
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fair enough, but as said before it is not easy to request a pressing level as settings will have to be changed and any particular cleft may not be suitable for that pressing requirements (ie clefts crack under pressing) so limiting options on grain structure. you would not get a pressing option in india either so no one in the world can offer a truely custom made bat?
it would be good if this option were available but no one offers it and no one will either.
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Slogger, again, not trying to be argumentative, but lets go back to Hawk. When I phoned up last year, they said all their bats were pressed to the same amount to ensure the same sort of playability. Surely if this was true, Hawk would have 100's of unused and worthless clefts laying around.
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thats a very very good point !
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I mean, I could well be wrong about Hawk, and as I have never seen their process, I could not really comment, but it makes you think if sloggers point is true, surely Hawk are losing more money than they are making due to the lack of useable and sellable clefts?
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no they would only have a few duff ones if they were all pressed to the same level. the cracks usually only happen on the largest, lightest ones, pro bats in generall so perhaps that line of my argument was floored!
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hawk have changed though recently the bats i have seen coming out of bellbroughton have lost that over cooked look they used to i know they did some sort of boiling to there bats which apparently they dont do any-more
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all im suggesting is if your including pressing as part of the custom made bat experience not one company is going to do this for you.
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I wasnt really sure on that part of this discussion. I know a bit about the manufacture of cricket bats, however, the pressing is something I have never looked into, so I was going in a bit blind on the last few comments. But I am glad I understand that now.
This topic (I hope) is making people think about what they are actually getting for their money. Just a finished cleft or a custom made bat (like advertised by most companies)!
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Laver would slogger i have already inquired with him about it on my next project
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the £950 pound baby !!!
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all im suggesting is if your including pressing as part of the custom made bat experience not one company is going to do this for you.
Disagree on that, obviously they're not going to make a (No Swearing Please) bat if you requested pressing which just wouldn't work but if you went to a company like Fusion who press their own clefts and said you wanted it pressed slightly harder for durability they'd would discuss it and if it seemed like the right thing to do they'd do it.
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Most bats require a different amount of pressing, some pressed more than others and some pressed less so i don't see why it should be a problem. Bat makers use oil or water when pressing to prevent the bat splitting under pressure and the more they are pressed the less bounce back effect the willow has.
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I wasnt really sure on that part of this discussion. I know a bit about the manufacture of cricket bats, however, the pressing is something I have never looked into, so I was going in a bit blind on the last few comments. But I am glad I understand that now.
This topic (I hope) is making people think about what they are actually getting for their money. Just a finished cleft or a custom made bat (like advertised by most companies)!
and your topic is doing just that! made me a think, which i havnt done for quite some time now! well since primary school i think.
it all comes down to what you define as a custom made bat as to whether you are happy with the bat you receive from any given company
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I am glad it is making some people think.
Thats a very valid point Tom, and I must have forgotten to mention something along those lines, because any company will ensure they get the best possible bat from the specifications the customer gives. For instance, if they customer wants 40mm edges and no spine (so just a plank shape), the bat maker would have to try and ensure that the bat is made to perform as well as it can.
The same applies to pressing.
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back to one of the other points craig made. i think the level of 'customness' is the same in india as in the UK, its just in the UK the bats go through more stages and labour stages. this will help contribute to the costs of UK bats compared to indian made bats. the prices the UK makers can charge is also far larger. the only difference between bats in india and UK is the cost (and the willow drying).
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True.
I think I still on the centerpiece, and I am not leaning to one side or the other. I have used both english and asian made bats and I have to admit, the quality of the bats werent much different. Obviously, they are slight differences (cosmetics) however I think they were pretty much equal. If I was buying a new bat, I think the only thing that would make me look more towards asian bats is the price.
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The definition of custom made is one point that has not been uniform here, what can you change in the making process from a stock bat to a custom?
Cleft, first and most simple, you can try and find a cleft that looks right, you might also be able to find one with a lower density.
Handle Length, simple again, you choose Super Short, Short or Long.
Blade Length, standard or modified, i.e 1 inch longer blade.
Pressing, this one is an odd one, I find those with a poor grasp of pressing will allow you to specify a change, pressing is subjective and the bat maker will always being looking for the optimum pressure point when pressing. For you to want a press either side of this peak will lower the performance and if on the softer side can result in a softer blade which is likely to crack more, on the harder side a bat that may last longer with reduced performance. I used to believe that a light press gave more power before I understood the process but now know better.
Shape, mostly personal preference.
What is the difference between "Handmade" and "Machine made"?
Again I'll work through the basic process,
Raw cleft has the waxed ends sawn off, the edges trimmed to size and the face planed. All these processes are done by a person with the aid of machines on both.
Splice sawn in cleft and handle cut to match, both done by a person with the aid of machines.
Shaping, this is the difference, handmade requires the cleft to be shaped by hand, machine made uses a lathe to shape.
Handling done by hand, pressing done by hand in all stages, finishing done by hand, binding done by hand with machine aid.
Not a lot of difference really, but a lot of difference in the quality of each process between firms.
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Craig, using India in your example... how many bats do you think are made by 1 single person in india, as in from start to finish? 1 single bat will be made by upto 10 people. How is this any different to what your describing above with one person pressing, and another shaping? Even over here, its pretty rare one single person will make 1 single bat from start to finish in ANY company.
As a CUSTOM company, you can come to me and I will supply whatever you like pressing wise from a totally unpressed cleft to one like concrete - they say the customer is always right.
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Agreed - i think it's the batmakers role to advise on how best to utilise each cleft. Out of interest - how many forum members have requested a bat to be pressed differently? i havnt and doubt i ever will - as consumers we have to take the word of the batmakers that they have attempted to get the best out of each cleft - though of course, it is within their capabilities to adjust this.
As Mike points out - very little difference between machine and 'hand made' - i just like the idea of buying british bats which have been made locally with good customer service - which is why so many of the bat makers do well on here.
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I would just like to clear up that I am not having a pop at any company here in the UK, and Gary, I hope you dont mind me using Redback as an example in this discussion.
I totally agree with the point made above about the pressing. Yes it is the batmakers job to ensure that each cleft is utilised to the best of its potential, and all be it, yes, 99% of the time I would agree that the pressing should be left to the 'professionals' but my point is, some people want a cleft that is pressed more than a usual cleft, and if that is the fact, then the customer should get this.
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I agree with you, but I would try my best to put them off doing it.
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Absolutely, I would definitely try and say against changing the amount of pressing, but going back to my first point, a CUSTOM MADE bat is where you can specify absolutely everything from handle length and shape, blade length etc.
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No an entirely custom made bat is when you can specify willow moisture content and density, whether the willow has been grown south facing or north facing, which round of the tree the cleft has come from etc.......you could go on and on - it just depends on what your definitions and expectations are regarding the bat being custom made - me, i would expect to choose a part made from a batch of 10-20 and ask for a shape and weight and handle.
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I am in agreement with your requirements above Dom
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Must mean there are no custom batmakers in the world then if thats the case Seedy
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me, i would expect to choose a part made from a batch of 10-20 and ask for a shape and weight and handle.
i think he was agreeing with this point, i doubt many on the forum would be that picky as to request a cleft from the third round of a south facing tree......would love to hear if people have requested that though.
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would Wright's even supply that level of detail to the bat makers? Aren't Grays are the only bat company who have their own willow ?
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I find it hard to believe that they would supply that info. A couple companies have their own willow - Gray Nics, Kippax, Hell4leather, Vantage has a few, Black Cat and Talisman
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I wouldnt ask for a different pressing as thats something i would leave the bat maker to decide and they have far superior knowledge to mine.
I think a custom made bat would be best described as choosing the shape, handle shape, grain of willow and middle position to your specific needs.
I do believe Black cat and Talisman have their own willow so not only Gray Nicolls...
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Warsop have some growing which must be close to being big enough to be felled, Newbery already produce their own along with some from Salix, Puma, SAF and others.
Moisture content can be lowered, J S Wrights will over dry if asked.
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Salix have the video on there website showing the process from start to finish from their own willow. Not sure how many bats they produce like this a year though. (Very little I imagine).
Not sure whether warsop press themselves, but if they do then perhaps we could put them in the bracket of "custom bat maker"...
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You find that those that offer a custom bat service will offer you, within reason, whatever you want..
I say within reason as you wont be able to chose your tree, but you could select a cleft, pressing, handle, shape etc etc etc etc etc
As for pressing and what you can get and ask for.... I would say that most people have no idea what sort of pressing is on a bat or how it should have been pressed in the first place. You would get asked for soft pressing because you think it will perform and hard pressing because you think it will last. Which may not be right for the cleft you've chosen!!!!
But heck it will be custom made to your spec's :D
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Interesting Norbs, can you explain a bit about what difference in makes in the Cleft, of course it will never be the same. I'm not a big bat lover so don't usually take big interest, but this interests me....
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are we forgetting the drying process this to can be customised
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the way I see "custom made" is similar to buying a suit...
You can go into M&S and buy "off the shelf" and get good quality, maybe mass produced, in trend, probably a little cheaper, only set sizes. Equivalent to just buying a bat from a shop or website and getting the standard bat mass produced bat (big brands)
You can buy an off the shelf suit and have it "tailored", have the sleeves shortened, trousers turned, etc etc. This for me would be equivalent of requesting a specific weight, grains, pick up, etc etc. But essentially an off the shelf bat with a little tweak for your needs such as weighting. (middle ground and most would offer this I guess)
Finally you can have a "bespoke" suit where the whole suit is made specifically to your own requirements. This is the equivalent to custom bats and where bat makers earn the corn. You go to a custom bat maker and hypothetically you can have what you want. Pick a cleft, have a chat about pressing, profile, weighting, I could go on but you get the idea. each batmaker similar to a tailor would have his "style" of profile, pressing, branding which is part of the appeal for me.
Of course, as with a bespoke suit a bespoke bat could still be a stinker, but hopefully with a good batmaker you'd be able to develop something unique for you, and get something you really want, and most importantly helps and compliments your game.
Just my opinion, and not sure if the suit analogy works, but for me thats why I like and appreciate the batmakers who offer this, feel free to shoot (suit) me down, ha ha! Sorry if that was a bit long too!
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top post mate and that why you should pay more for a top quality batmaker to make your bat through his reputation they have earned
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I have heard the counter argument first hand that batsmen should not be allowed to impart anything towards the making process and leave it to the batmaker to decide what he/she should use.
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I agree.....let the batmaker know what style you play and personal preferences of an aesthetic nature then let him work his magic.
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Talisman / Harry are right the idea is to get a bat to suit the players style.... Sometimes they kno,w sometimes they ask,
If they ask about a bat shape you explain, if they ask about the handle you explain, if they ask about a particular cleft you explain, if they ask about pressing you explain.
The trick isn't a compromise it is to give them enough information as part of the process so they understand what the bat will do, why it will do it and how it is the best bat for them.
That is why you go custom made in the UK