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General Cricket => World Cricket => England => Topic started by: Buzz on January 11, 2019, 06:23:57 PM
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Joe Clarke and Tom Kohler-Cadmore, two promising young batsmen, have been stood down from the England Lions tour to India that departs Saturday in light of details that emerged during the trial of their former Worcestershire teammate Alex Hepburn
Pair out of England Lions tour over Alex Hepburn trial revelations
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jan/11/pair-out-england-lions-tour-alex-hepburn-trial-revelations?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jan/11/pair-out-england-lions-tour-alex-hepburn-trial-revelations?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)
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At the wrong time for Joe Clarke especially who continues to make Lions contributions to get into the main team.
whilst the dtls of the case are unpleasant neither those two mentioned have done anything wrong In the eyes of the law or are changed with anything
So by just being mentioned in the case they have lost their places.
You do wonder if the decision of the ECB would of been the same if the two cricketers were more high profile.
It's a fine line making moral judgements that affect careers when no law has been broken.
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At the wrong time for Joe Clarke especially who continues to make Lions contributions to get into the main team.
whilst the dtls of the case are unpleasant neither those two mentioned have done anything wrong In the eyes of the law or are changed with anything
So by just being mentioned in the case they have lost their places.
You do wonder if the decision of the ECB would of been the same if the two cricketers were more high profile.
It's a fine line making moral judgements that affect careers when no law has been broken.
Maybe it’s right the ECB start to stand up to these things? Pro sports is a privilege after all and such a short career for a lot of money..hardly hard not to just stay clean .. many other jobs and roles require far more or you lose your job.. no ifs or guts or ‘such a talent’ ‘don’t blame him, he’s just xyz’
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I'd been wondering if something like this might happen given the similarities to the rape case involving the Irish rugby players. I guess once that kind of precedent has been set, the ECB had to be seen to be following suit?
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I don’t like the fact there being punished for messages sent in private, if they checked every player in the England team I guarantee they would find stuff just as bad
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Is anyone replacing them?
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The whatsapp group does sound a bit scummy to me so I am happy the ECB has brought them back down to earth a bit.
Hopefully the bad publicity the case will bring will make them focus on cricket as they could both compete for England spots in the future.
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The whatsapp group does sound a bit scummy to me so I am happy the ECB has brought them back down to earth a bit.
Hopefully the bad publicity the case will bring will make them focus on cricket as they could both compete for England spots in the future.
It does sound scummy, and speaks of the moral character of the people involved - but TKC I think can count himself a little unlucky seeing as there is apparently no evidence that he was involved in that chat, just they think he was mentioned by other people as 'Tom'
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It does sound scummy, and speaks of the moral character of the people involved - but TKC I think can count himself a little unlucky seeing as there is apparently no evidence that he was involved in that chat, just they think he was mentioned by other people as 'Tom'
I thibk we can say with some certainty the Tom involved was him given the ECB’s response.
Tom Curran seems to still be available for selection!
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Retrial has been granted.
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Tom Moores and Will Jacks called up to the lions (staggered at Jacks being called up he isn't even in the Surrey 1st team)
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Watched a bit of Moores last year, unorthodox but definitely has a good eye. Very different bat to Clarke or TKC
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Tom Moores is a crazier pick than Jacks.
He just has a dip on the Trent Bridge Road with the boundaries brought in to short cover.
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Moore’s is a joke,
Only in the Notts side coz daddy is coach, I said before the season we need a better keeper batsman
Can’t believe billy root never got a chance and moved and Moore’s plays so much!
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With some of the names being plucked out you only hope Hameed has been left out on purpose as that is deemed the best course of action for him at this time.
Otherwise he really needs to get back on the horse to recapture his 2016 form.
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I don’t like the fact there being punished for messages sent in private, if they checked every player in the England team I guarantee they would find stuff just as bad
If you are in a position like they are as pro sportsmen just assume nothing is private and don’t do it. Fairly simple.
After all, it’s a short career and very well paid so hardly asking much to behave is it
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Who selects the Lions, presumably not Smith? Pair of very surprising selections, although tbf there's always more to Lions picks than just merit. Guessing Moores and Jacks don't have overseas playing gigs this winter, can think of at least a couple of players who would surely get selected ahead of them who are playing abroad atm.
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The ECB has really boxed itself into a corner with these ridiculous over the top reactions in recent times. When I booked tickets for a number of games this summer I did so because I enjoy the experience of watching England play entertaining cricket, not because I am hoping to see 11 upstanding Mary Whitehouse's take to the field.
I would aver that you would struggle to find any teenager or early twenties who hasn't been part of a group chat which contains inappropriate content at some point. Some of these people will go on to hold actual positions of responsibility. The idea that because you make a living playing a game somehow requires different moral standards than those who became doctors, serve in the emergency services or military, become judges or politicians etc is laughable.
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Just because chat is accepted, does not make it acceptable.
Discussing how you rape someone is disgusting.
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Just because chat is accepted, does not make it acceptable.
Discussing how you rape someone is disgusting.
Is that what was in the chat?
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Just because chat is accepted, does not make it acceptable.
Discussing how you rape someone is disgusting.
It is, though I wasn't aware that that was the disputed content.
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The ECB has really boxed itself into a corner with these ridiculous over the top reactions in recent times. When I booked tickets for a number of games this summer I did so because I enjoy the experience of watching England play entertaining cricket, not because I am hoping to see 11 upstanding Mary Whitehouse's take to the field.
I would aver that you would struggle to find any teenager or early twenties who hasn't been part of a group chat which contains inappropriate content at some point. Some of these people will go on to hold actual positions of responsibility. The idea that because you make a living playing a game somehow requires different moral standards than those who became doctors, serve in the emergency services or military, become judges or politicians etc is laughable.
There are a lot of jobs where yes.. this sort of thing will see you never get a job or fired ...
They are in a job which is highly paid and for a short duration (ie., not like most who will have to work until 60+) .. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to act properly. Wait until you aren’t a sportsman to go do these things.
I don’t want thugs, cheats and these types of people representing the country.. that is what they would be doing for englsnd. Then county wise is the same ..
There is a reason PR spin is always looking to hide things like this.... politicians will to out of their way to hide past indescresions as it’ll destroy their careers etc ..
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There is a reason PR spin is always looking to hide things like this.... politicians will to out of their way to hide past indescresions as it’ll destroy their careers etc ..
Doesn't seem to be a bar to becoming president of the United States or being appointed to their Supreme Court .... At least in this country it would stop someone from being elected as an MP becoming mayor of our capital city or holding one of the 3 great offices of state ...
I wonder what sort of career Ian Botham would have had if working under today's puritanical standards. I am guessing that the 81 Ashes were ruined for most people because of Beefy taking part despite his drug taking and adultery. Ditto the 2005 Ashes what with Freddie's alcohol related indiscretions. Or maybe people simply enjoyed them for what they were as terrific sporting contests played out by individuals who had a life outside of playing a game which other people liked to watch.
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Im surprised anyone can find a reason to defend this sort of behaviour. But again, says alot about the people doing the defending. I personally think the punishment fits the crime for Mr Clarke, not like his career has been ended but enough to make him buck his ideas up
Hepburn can count himself fortunate so far with the no verdict
Botham was slightly different as although no doubt he was wild I dont think pre-planned sexual assault was ever on his agenda
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Not sure who's defending anything. Anyone who has committed any kind of sexual offence deserves to be punished accordingly in line with the law. However it seems TKC and Clarke were mentioned as being part of a WhatsApp group which had some discussion in it 'detailing sexuasl exploits. At present i don't think there are any further details available, so its difficult to find TKC or Clark guilty of anything surely? Hepburn has not yet been found guilty either, so some pretty big assumptions are being made all round here.
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Im surprised anyone can find a reason to defend this sort of behaviour. But again, says alot about the people doing the defending. I personally think the punishment fits the crime for Mr Clarke, not like his career has been ended but enough to make him buck his ideas up
Hepburn can count himself fortunate so far with the no verdict
Botham was slightly different as although no doubt he was wild I dont think pre-planned sexual assault was ever on his agenda
I am not sure on what basis anyone can say that Hepburn can count himself lucky apart from those who have sat through all the evidence presented to the court unless they are happy to make wild baseless speculation about a very serious offence. I can't see that anyone had defended his behaviour, which is unsurprising seeing as his case is awaiting a retrial. And of course this thread is about TKC and Clarke, neither of whom have been subject to any suggestion of having committed a sexual offence, not least a pre-planned sexual assault. To suggest that anyone backing these two players are therefore excusing rape is abhorrent in my view.
What it boils down to is whether being part of a group chat with some irresponsible things being said in private is a reason to withdraw 2 players from a touring party. There would be a real irony in someone criticising such behaviour by making irresponsible and potentially libellous public comments. Would certainly say a lot about that person.
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I am not sure on what basis anyone can say that Hepburn can count himself lucky apart from those who have sat through all the evidence presented to the court unless they are happy to make wild baseless speculation about a very serious offence. I can't see that anyone had defended his behaviour, which is unsurprising seeing as his case is awaiting a retrial. And of course this thread is about TKC and Clarke, neither of whom have been subject to any suggestion of having committed a sexual offence, not least a pre-planned sexual assault. To suggest that anyone backing these two players are therefore excusing rape is abhorrent in my view.
What it boils down to is whether being part of a group chat with some irresponsible things being said in private is a reason to withdraw 2 players from a touring party. There would be a real irony in someone criticising such behaviour by making irresponsible and potentially libellous public comments. Would certainly say a lot about that person.
I think Hepburn is lucky on the basis that countless others have gone to prison under the same circumstances
You've turned that around well though, hats off to you :D
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If the victim was your daughter, how would you feel about them discussing her rape/alleged rape?
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If the victim was your daughter, how would you feel about them discussing her rape/alleged rape?
Perhaps I've missed it but has there been any kind of suggestion anywhere that rape in general or this alleged case of rape was discussed in this chat?
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Perhaps I've missed it but has there been any kind of suggestion anywhere that rape in general or this alleged case of rape was discussed in this chat?
As far as I'm aware there has been no mention of that being the case. As I said people are leaping to conclusions here without anyone knowing the facts. If that was the case then of course that would be disgusting behaviour and would deserve the severest of punishment, regardless of it coming from a piblic figure or not. Nobody is excusing that kind of behaviour, but again nobody knows that is the case here so I think people should be careful before labelling it as such.
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If the victim was your daughter, how would you feel about them discussing her rape/alleged rape?
And not sure what the point is here. It wouldn't matter who it was if this was the case, everyone is someone's daughter or son. Any sexual offence against any person is unacceptable.
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I think this topic should now be locked Admin!