Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Your Cricket => Topic started by: Sloggerz on November 03, 2019, 07:25:54 PM
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What are your opinions on using the bowling machine over the winter. What is better? Are players better off with throwdowns or a mixture of the two.
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Depends what you want to train (and how good your thrower is!)
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Depends on what you wish to achieve
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Use bowling machines to work on shots. I'm weak at cuts so when I get chance I try and work on shots I'm weak at to improve my confidence. Throw downs I use on match days or just as a general simulation of match variable bowling
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Balance work and weight transfer
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What are your opinions on using the bowling machine over the winter. What is better? Are players better off with throwdowns or a mixture of the two.
I find throw-downs to be pretty useless.
It takes lot of practice to learn to use a bowling machine properly (and I don't mean speed setting, swing degress etc. but actually the kind of bowling for specific shot practice or eliminating weaknesses) but if you are able to invest the time (and money) into it, it will be the best thing you did for your batting! Gary Palmer has some great "how to" videos on bowling machines - highly recommended.
One simple tip: keep a practice log, it will change your results.
Good luck! :)
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Ok, from the coaches POV:
Bowling machines are next to useless. As a coaching tool, I get much better results giving throwdowns to teach specific shots. They're more visually realistic for the player, you can add swing, cut and spin as necessary depending on what you're working on, and you can throw the ball into the exact spot you need. With the bowling machine there's always a surprisingly large margin of error.
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@SLA and @DorsetDan
I get what you're saying about the bowling machine being unrealistic (and totally agree).
However, there are now machines with a screen on that shows a bowler running in and "delivering" the ball. Would these be of more use than a traditional machine?
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Ok, from the coaches POV:
Bowling machines are next to useless. As a coaching tool, I get much better results giving throwdowns to teach specific shots. They're more visually realistic for the player, you can add swing, cut and spin as necessary depending on what you're working on, and you can throw the ball into the exact spot you need. With the bowling machine there's always a surprisingly large margin of error.
I maintained my machine well and always replaced worn out balls and was able to repeatedly land it on an area the size of a small dinner plate.
As mentioend by Cam, the trueman machine has alleviated the concern about realism.
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Ok, from the coaches POV:
Bowling machines are next to useless. As a coaching tool, I get much better results giving throwdowns to teach specific shots. They're more visually realistic for the player, you can add swing, cut and spin as necessary depending on what you're working on, and you can throw the ball into the exact spot you need. With the bowling machine there's always a surprisingly large margin of error.
I couldn't disagree more.
- Bowling machine do take time to get used to but it is not impossible. Absence of a "realistic" bowler actually improved my batting as my ball-tracking (with eyes) improved.
- Maybe there are plenty of human ball throwers in England who can "swing, cut and spin" a ball using SideArm. Zero in my location.
- Machine is available when humans are not.
- My Bola JR can land a ball anywhere I want! I have yet to meet a club cricketer who can land the ball on the same spot like McGrath! None. You are completely wrong here.
- There is no "large margin of error" with a bowling machine. The balls are not dropped on a dime but between the speeds of 55-65, the pitch is accurate enough. I can practice all my shots with a Bola JR. To build muscle memory, all you need is a machine set on low speed.
- How many balls can you throw in an hour session or longer? Bola JR never complains about shoulder aches or pains.
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I couldn't disagree more.
- Bowling machine do take time to get used to but it is not impossible. Absence of a "realistic" bowler actually improved my batting as my ball-tracking (with eyes) improved.
- Maybe there are plenty of human ball throwers in England who can "swing, cut and spin" a ball using SideArm. Zero in my location.
- Machine is available when humans are not.
- My Bola JR can land a ball anywhere I want! I have yet to meet a club cricketer who can land the ball on the same spot like McGrath! None. You are completely wrong here.
- There is no "large margin of error" with a bowling machine. The balls are not dropped on a dime but between the speeds of 55-65, the pitch is accurate enough. I can practice all my shots with a Bola JR. To build muscle memory, all you need is a machine set on low speed.
- How many balls can you throw in an hour session or longer? Bola JR never complains about shoulder aches or pains.
You're forgetting one thing.. hes the best coach ever and can throw perfectly forever!
I am yet to meet anyone who can throw more accurately than a bowling machine can land the ball! this includes county coaches.
both have there purpose and i find a bowling machine can mess timing up but not so badly if you have a decent feeder (auto feed can be difficult)
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I feel you can premeditate on bowling machine as you know where it will come.
Throwdowns or SideArm has some unpredictability in terms of length, line, pace etc.
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i find a bowling machine can mess timing up but not so badly if you have a decent feeder (auto feed can be difficult)
I agree.
I don't recommend bowling machine to :
- newbies.
- people who are getting ready for a big/final match for the division championship but don't regularly use it or have never used it.
- anyone who things that a one-time use of a bowling machine will miraculously improve their batting skills.
I only recommend bowling machine when:
- you have easy access to it and can regularly use it.
- Can learn to use it and learn to coach yourself.
I have had uninitiated nag me into letting them use a bowling machine and it just messed up their timing! Why? Human bowlers they normally face totally suck and can't throw with the accuracy and "skill" of a bowling machine.
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I feel you can premeditate on bowling machine as you know where it will come.
The premeditation factor depends on you as a batsman and a practitioner of the skill. A serious batsman who's aware of his technique will never premedidate.
I have had friends barge in and use my bowling machine. It is basically a "look, I am a clown" act when they start pre-mediating and cutting all outswingers instead of trying to play with a straight bat.
The question you need to answer is how serious you are about practicing your technique and what exactly are you practicing. Over coming fear of a good bowling? Fear of being hit (body shots)? Swing? Seam? The beauty of a bowling machine is that you can drill body movements into muscle memory and you need some cognizance/deliberation around your practice.
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Decent way to measure it, what do the pros use more? A machine or a sidearm and coach?
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^ You are comparing apples and oranges.
Pros have access to some of the best cricket training personnel in the world. Clubbies don't. Big difference.
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I couldn't disagree more.
- Bowling machine do take time to get used to but it is not impossible. Absence of a "realistic" bowler actually improved my batting as my ball-tracking (with eyes) improved.
- Maybe there are plenty of human ball throwers in England who can "swing, cut and spin" a ball using SideArm. Zero in my location.
- Machine is available when humans are not.
- My Bola JR can land a ball anywhere I want! I have yet to meet a club cricketer who can land the ball on the same spot like McGrath! None. You are completely wrong here.
- There is no "large margin of error" with a bowling machine. The balls are not dropped on a dime but between the speeds of 55-65, the pitch is accurate enough. I can practice all my shots with a Bola JR. To build muscle memory, all you need is a machine set on low speed.
- How many balls can you throw in an hour session or longer? Bola JR never complains about shoulder aches or pains.
Valid point. Machine is available when humans are not! Hate relying on others for throw down or practice. Actually one of the factors that put me off playing for many years.
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^ I bought my machine because human were either: a.) not available; b.) only practiced with their friends and excluded everyone else.
On top of the that, if I do find human bowlers, 60% of balls are bowled wide! Trying to get a decent batting practice within a club setting is a schitty experience!
Your time and your enjoyment is worth lot more than the cost of a Bola JR. You won't regret it.
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@InternalTraining if 60% of the balls you face in training are wide I think your club needs a bowling coach... :(
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For most clubbies, circumstances will dictate which is best - if all your mates are crap at throwing, use a machine! If your local machine net costs loads of money to hire and only has 5 and a half balls in the bucket, better off trying your luck buying the mrs a sidearm for Christmas.
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^ I bought my machine because human were either: a.) not available; b.) only practiced with their friends and excluded everyone else.
On top of the that, if I do find human bowlers, 60% of balls are bowled wide! Trying to get a decent batting practice within a club setting is a schitty experience!
Your time and your enjoyment is worth lot more than the cost of a Bola JR. You won't regret it.
I can relate to the wides in club nets being a left hander.
Is the bola JR quick enough? How does it compare to the main model apart from the speed.
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Has anyone come across freebowler. Thoughts on that?
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I can relate to the wides in club nets being a left hander.
Is the bola JR quick enough? How does it compare to the main model apart from the speed.
I find Bola JR to be more than adequate. The max speed is 65 mph. I generally set it between 57.5 to 62.5 mph. If I want to practice against quick bowling, I move the machine to 18 or 17 yard distance from the popping crease. The swing control works beautifully and you can get banana shaped in and out-swing deliveries. Bola JR is easy to transport and very light to carry in/out of the car trunk or back seat. The poles are short enough to fit in a small/mid-size sedan if you roll the back seat over. I use a portable battery and a feeder extension which gives me 18 deliveries per feed. In my opinion, it is better than Bola PRO for club use. Two types of balls are available, a softer orange and slightly harder white to mimic hard/fast bounce. Again, don't be decieved by the soft ball ("JR") image, it is the best tool to improve your timing. After a few rounds, you will notice soft balls racing to long off/on boundaries because of sheer "timing". It is an amazing training tool.
I also own the regular (PRO) Bola model and it is a heavy beast to setup and transport to/from your nets. Also, the higher speeds really server no benefit when training muscle memory. Plus, Bola regular balls are hard and injuries are a real concern (I ended up in ER with a golf ball sized contusion trying to pull a 75mph ball - I pulled too fast and got hit on my right forearm).
Per my discussions with the owner of Bola, the impression (my understanding not exact statements) was that the JR machine was really developed as a portable version and not as a kids/"junior" player machine. But, they also didn't want to undercut the adult market for the regular (PRO or big) Bola machine. So, they market the lighter/portable machine as a "JR" or kids machine. :D
Having said all the nice things about Bola JR, one thing is that it can't throw crazy Warne/Mushy style spin balls. I just set the speed to 45-50 mph and set the swing to 3 or 4 degrees and aim the nose high. Balls get a good drift and some turn for spin. It is good enough for me.
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Thanks for the detailed review. Bola Jr sounds like an excellent option. Does the portable battery take long to charge? How long does the battery last once its fully charged?
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You can shop around for a good battery and a charger. I bought a cheapo charger and a decent batter. On full charge, I can run the machine for close to 2 hours. You can also use a power pack and connect the machine to a wall outlet (depending on where you use the machine).
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Its simple, if you're an introvert, use a bowling machine. If you're an extrovert, throwdowns are the way to go :D
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Simple! What if I'm bipolar?
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Simple! What if I'm bipolar?
Really classy making jokes about mental health mate...
http://www.openingupcricket.com/# (http://www.openingupcricket.com/#)
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Really classy making jokes about mental health mate...
[url]http://www.openingupcricket.com/#[/url] ([url]http://www.openingupcricket.com/#[/url])
Joke or statement...
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Bowling machine is pretty useless, i would never use one again. It actually damages your batting more than it helps IMO.
Practice against actual bowlers bowling is best. Throwdowns is next best.
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I couldn't disagree more.
- Bowling machine do take time to get used to but it is not impossible. Absence of a "realistic" bowler actually improved my batting as my ball-tracking (with eyes) improved.
- Maybe there are plenty of human ball throwers in England who can "swing, cut and spin" a ball using SideArm. Zero in my location.
- Machine is available when humans are not.
- My Bola JR can land a ball anywhere I want! I have yet to meet a club cricketer who can land the ball on the same spot like McGrath! None. You are completely wrong here.
- There is no "large margin of error" with a bowling machine. The balls are not dropped on a dime but between the speeds of 55-65, the pitch is accurate enough. I can practice all my shots with a Bola JR. To build muscle memory, all you need is a machine set on low speed.
- How many balls can you throw in an hour session or longer? Bola JR never complains about shoulder aches or pains.
Hey look, its cool. You've spent a lot of money on your bowling machine, and now you've got a lot of psychological baggage that requires you to constantly convince yourself that this was the "right" decision. Nothing anyone says here is going to convince you otherwise. So why argue?
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^ Nah, just great results.
But you are free and entitled to your stone-age methods. People like you cannot suppress the truth for long.
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Personally I find a bowling machine much more useful for both developing my own game and getting into form for the start of the season. Even up to a decent level, the biggest single improvement you can make is simply by hitting a volume of balls. A BOLA with an autofeeder gives you the volume of practice that the amateur or paid league cricketer isn't going to get otherwise.
The Trueman version of the BOLA is great but unfortunately i haven't seen a net outside of the indoor centres of the first class counties with one yet
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^ Nah, just great results.
But you are free and entitled to your stone-age methods. People like you cannot suppress the truth for long.
hahahahahaha. "people like me" who "suppress the truth"? Do you think there is a conspiracy against bowling machines? This is absolute gold mate. Please, start a youtube channel, it would be hilarious.
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the biggest single improvement you can make is simply by hitting a volume of balls.
Literally no coach in the world would agree with this.
Its like thinking that the best way to become a F1 driver is to jump in your car and drive as many miles as you can.
You need deliberate, dedicated practice with feedback from a knowledgeable observer in as close to match situations as possible. Mindlessly smacking rubber hockey balls on a plastic indoor strip is more likely to ingrain bad habits than good.
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Literally no coach in the world would agree with this.
Its like thinking that the best way to become a F1 driver is to jump in your car and drive as many miles as you can.
You need deliberate, dedicated practice with feedback from a knowledgeable observer in as close to match situations as possible. Mindlessly smacking rubber hockey balls on a plastic indoor strip is more likely to ingrain bad habits than good.
This!
As much as we all love a bowling machine sending down 50mph half volleys to make us feel like Don Bradman, does it actually help anyone?
And as much as you can try to convince yourself that you aren't premeditating when facing a bowling machine, the nature of the practice a machine provides you will be (even if subconsciously). If you're, as InternalTraining puts it, practicing all your shots at a low speed "to build muscle memory" are you not premeditating in order to do that? i.e if you're "building muscle memory" by practicing your cover drive, even if you aren't in position to play the shot before the ball is bowled/fired you will be subconsciously premeditating said cover drive.
While I like a machine session to have a hit in the winter, I don't think they're that great a means of practicing or developing your game. That's just my opinion though, I won't try ramming it down your throat to suppress anyone's perspective of the truth ;)
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Literally no coach in the world would agree with this.
Its like thinking that the best way to become a F1 driver is to jump in your car and drive as many miles as you can.
You need deliberate, dedicated practice with feedback from a knowledgeable observer in as close to match situations as possible. Mindlessly smacking rubber hockey balls on a plastic indoor strip is more likely to ingrain bad habits than good.
surely to ingrain you want to take out as many variables as possible.. a person feeding (in my opinion) wont be as accurate as a machine.
Bowling machines have there purpose, to ignore that would be stupid, however there is a limit as to what they can achieve, to ignore this would also be stupid.
having said that every person is different, for me when im feeling out fo touch a bowling machine net is perfect, get that feeling back hit the ball great, but when im in form i like to face bowlers as its what happens in a game, if im struggling with a shot, bowling machine, if im struggling with rhythm, bowlers are better.
it all depends on what your trying to achieve
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On the rare occasions I have used a bowling machine I make sure it’s set just short of a length, swinging in and seaming away. I find this very difficult as there is enough random variation that a variety of shots are possible and you only have a split second to decide. However, we are not pros and enjoying a session is at least as important as improving technique.
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Literally no coach in the world would agree with this.
Its like thinking that the best way to become a F1 driver is to jump in your car and drive as many miles as you can.
You need deliberate, dedicated practice with feedback from a knowledgeable observer in as close to match situations as possible. Mindlessly smacking rubber hockey balls on a plastic indoor strip is more likely to ingrain bad habits than good.
To use one example, when Jonny Bairstow came back from his first England stint to Yorkshire, Jason Gillespie has gone on record to say that there had been too much over coaching and what Bairstow needed was simply to go back into the nets and get bat on ball without interference. Nasser Hussain for another has spoken about his own development and his belief in batsmen developing through volume of practice.
Admittedly you no doubt have more first class.and international experience ...
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@SD I think there's a bit of a difference between professionals coming back to their county from the national side and a club player though
Then to play devils advocate to my own argument, Steve Smith became the best batsman in the world with a "village technique" by hitting thousands, if not millions, of balls.
At the end of the day it's each to their own, some like the machine, some don't. Just do what suits you and enjoy your cricket, does it really matter what anyone else thinks?
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I'll throw something in here as it's getting to be a bit of a catch all practice discussion... for most clubbies, improving your concentration and decision making is much more important than technical work. It's not your 'technique' that gets you out most of the time, it's your lapses in concentration and (No Swearing Please) decisions!
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Main issue with bowling machines for me is the fixed point of release versus the varying points of release when a bowler actually bowls. Just statically looking at the fixed bowling machine point of release and then facing actual bowler in game makes it even more difficult for me than just practicing against actual bowlers and going into the game. To each his own I guess, it it helps someone then why not, but better to be aware of the potential pitfalls.
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Main issue with bowling machines for me is the fixed point of release versus the varying points of release when a bowler actually bowls. Just statically looking at the fixed bowling machine point of release and then facing actual bowler in game makes it even more difficult for me than just practicing against actual bowlers and going into the game. To each his own I guess, it it helps someone then why not, but better to be aware of the potential pitfalls.
Move yourself across the crease to vary this, much easier and quicker than moving the machine.
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If you're, as InternalTraining puts it, practicing all your shots at a low speed "to build muscle memory" are you not premeditating in order to do that? i.e if you're "building muscle memory" by practicing your cover drive, even if you aren't in position to play the shot before the ball is bowled/fired you will be subconsciously premeditating said cover drive.
Not at all.
If you are just robotically practicing one shot, then throw downs won't help you either. You should do something else with your free time.
I have been very clear in previous posts about the "clown" act. Bowling machines do require some thought and planning. Keep a training log. Etc.
When practicing a shot or even learning to play a specific delivery, players must practice good judgement to leave unplayable balls, defend good ones, and hit ones that should be hit. Technique, judgement, patience.
If you think there is no "pre-meditation" when playing shots in cricket, I'd say you and I are playing a completely different sport.
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This is absolute gold mate. Please, start a youtube channel, it would be hilarious.
No thanks. It hasn't done you any good.
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It's not your 'technique' that gets you out most of the time, it's your lapses in concentration and (No Swearing Please) decisions!
That can be remedied by better fitness levels - tired players lost focus/concentration and make poor decisions.
We are talking about clubbies here, fitness is a pretty low priority of many clubbies (including myself). :D
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If you think there is no "pre-meditation" when playing shots in cricket, I'd say you and I are playing a completely different sport.
I was saying quite the opposite, but I think using the machine you will do so more (even if subconsciously) than facing a bowler or someone giving throw downs.
It's actually a subtle psychological impact, while you're focusing on not robotically playing the same shot ball after ball, you'll actually be doing just that.
A very dumbed down version would be of someone said to you "don't think about TK made bats". By the process of not thinking about them as you're told you will have them creep into your subconscious, willingly or not.
I think we've gone off on enough of a tangent now, mind you... :D
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Just got back from a session. Few buckets of throwdowns/underarm feeds followed by two rounds with the bola. I dont know why but this machine would bowl vary the lengths ocassionally and i didnt feel each delivery was identical to the previous. Could be down to poor maintainence. The combination of both has helped in recent weeks.
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Personally if I try and ignore the tit for tat my opinion is that both serve a valuable lesson, I have played the game long enough and to a good enough level to have had a range of coaches, 1 that’s played international level and various Level 3 coaches and the difference in opinion is I would say 50/50. Some reckon there is no better way than to hit as many balls as possible and doesn’t matter how (Bola or bowlers, side arm etc) and the other that wants to work on perfecting specific shots or technique and these have always used a Bola machine.
I like the Bola machine for the fact that well maintained they are more accurate than nearly all club bowlers and can be used for hours at a time or on your own. I like bowlers as you get the whole feel of someone running in and the action and timing of your movements etc is easier in my opinion.
Given the choice as will stick with a mix of the two as I feel both have benefits the other can’t give.
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The 2019 Bola machine has a selectable random increment option. Anyone have any experience, either for or against?
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Balance work and weight transfer
If you have such a specific goal (which btw way is great), then you won’t go wrong with either option. People get in trouble when they try and do “general practice” - without any plan or idea of what they want to work on. That’s when the bad habits kick in.
Machine or throw downs should be used to work on particular aspects of your game, and you have already done the hard part of identifying very specifically what you want to work on (balance). To be safe you should throw in the occasional net to see if your drill work is helping and then recalibrate accordingly.
Given that your goal is balance and weight transfer, I would avoid the temptation of selecting a high speed on the machine - makes it easier to time and think you’re balanced etc. Switch to slow speeds to truly see if you are keeping balance, maintaining shape and playing the ball as late as possible. Similarly with throw downs, you could do the really slow stuff (underarm one bounce feeds, or slow full tosses) to really test yourself.