Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Players => Topic started by: ppccopener on September 06, 2020, 05:28:15 PM
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I remember as a kid going to Lords and seeing David Gower score 22 and then nick one off to the slips, instead of being deflated the most elegant batsman I had seen get out for not much, I left Lords happy I'd seen 5 perfectly timed drives that looked effortless.
Same with Bell, he never scored ugly runs and I'm def in the camp that with 22 test hundreds he was more than eye candy or made easy runs back when we had an indestructible batting line up and he came in behind KP.
Perhaps I'm just a purist at heart and like to see style.
This forums views seem very split on his contribution despite 5 Ashes wins on his CV, and a test average that puts him in the very good category.
What's your view? Can 22 hundreds be mainly soft runs? I wonder if those that don't rate him think middle order runs are easier to come by than top order ones? I can see that argument as having some weight.
What he did thou, he did with style and I for one enjoyed watching.Cheers Belly :)
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Split his career in two. 2004-2009. Dropped twice, told to toughen up.
2009-2015. Scores tough hundreds in SA, Aus, India. Part of the best top 5 I've seen for England. Without any one of those players, I'm certain England don't become the best test side on the world and he doesn't survive Andy Flower's reign.
You don't fluke 22 test hundreds and more times past fifty than any other English player when he stopped playing. He wasn't a great. But he was very good.
To say he scored soft runs and was carried suggests forming an early opinion and not being swayed despite later evidence to tje contrary. Elite sport is brutal and it dropped him twice in five years. After that he thrived.
Cook, KP, great. Strauss, Bell, very good
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We'd take in a flash now. Players who make it look easy always get judged the hardest.
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Bell was not an all time great - there is a lot in the argument that he (like Matt Prior and several Aussies who got to bat at 6 and 7 in their decade or more or dominance) has a greater percentage of cheap runs in his career that most, and that he has often shown signs that his mental game is not up there with his technical one - but, and this is a massive BUT for me - you don't get 22 test hundreds without being some player. Think of some of the supreme talents who have not managed a fraction of that - Ramprakash being Exhibit A, probably B and C as well.
I'd also add that he seems to have been well liked by his team mates - not something that you expect to see in that Flower era schism ridden room - and that he was one of the most reliable catchers we've had. Softer skills maybe, but adding to an all round package who would, lets be frank, walk into the current team if he were a 24 year old now.
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Bell wasn't as transformative as Pietersen, nor as consistent as Cook, and so probably doesn't belong at that very top, 'legend' status of England batsmen. But he absolutely belongs on the second tier of excellent England players, alongside Trott, Strauss, Vaughan... He scored 560-odd runs in one Ashes series, and that is enough for me.
He did it in style too... What a gorgeous cover drive he had!
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Bell was not an all time great - there is a lot in the argument that he (like Matt Prior and several Aussies who got to bat at 6 and 7 in their decade or more or dominance) has a greater percentage of cheap runs in his career that most, and that he has often shown signs that his mental game is not up there with his technical one - but, and this is a massive BUT for me - you don't get 22 test hundreds without being some player. Think of some of the supreme talents who have not managed a fraction of that - Ramprakash being Exhibit A, probably B and C as well.
I'd also add that he seems to have been well liked by his team mates - not something that you expect to see in that Flower era schism ridden room - and that he was one of the most reliable catchers we've had. Softer skills maybe, but adding to an all round package who would, lets be frank, walk into the current team if he were a 24 year old now.
His 2013 Ashes was as good as Cook’s in 2010/11. At 3. And that team was on the way down too.
Cook’s last 3 or 4 years in an England shirt were flaky at best.
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Cook’s last 3 or 4 years in an England shirt were flaky at best.
Thats a different discussion to be honest - because I personally think Cook is one of the more overrated players of recent times, and certainly a lucky chap indeed to have been knighted.
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Personally, I think Ian bell is the best number 6 in the country and has been for years. I’d take him over anyone else we’ve tried at 6, bairstow, pope, buttler, root, etc etc. He was unbelievably good, not as talented as Pietersen (who I regard as the most talented English batsman of all time), but a serious player that would grind out runs when needs be, also, has a fabulous technique and watching him in white ball cricket was a treat too.
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I remember when he was part of that phenomenal team in the Flower era where his only criticism was that he only scored hundreds after someone else had already done so. How we'd take that now! But he did prove towards the end of his career that he could stick in and do the hard yards when the going was tough particularly in 2013 when the team was starting to fall apart around him.
He isn't a great, but definitely hugely underrated member of some very successful teams and definitely deserves to be in the top tier of best England players.
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Class act, wonderful player. We were lucky to have been able to see him bat.
Anything else is conjecture.
And if you aren't sure, drink in this from yesterday.
https://twitter.com/CountyChamp/status/1302654341715812353?s=19
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All this bull about style over substance really irks me - he's scored tough runs when needed to.
Very few have looked as easy on the eye as Bell, his cover drives are to die for. He's been a fabulous player and I'll certainly miss watching him,
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Bell is up there in the top 10 highest ever test match run scorers for England and has an avg North of 40 so any criticism is frankly just stupid.
As has been said not in the class of Peterson, pointing, Kallis etc but i would say not very far behind and has been a superb player for county and country.
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Some lack of substance! :o
Seems he's going out in Adidas gear, btw. (For those who do actually value style over substance.)
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* Yes I know Hawk possibly make his bats.
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Bell is up there in the top 10 highest ever test match run scorers for England and has an avg North of 40 so any criticism is frankly just stupid.
As has been said not in the class of Peterson, pointing, Kallis etc but i would say not very far behind and has been a superb player for county and country.
Amen.
7k test runs with 22 centuries and over 20k first class runs. Style over substance my ass.
More like style AND substance.
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Bell was a decent player when England where a gun side. He was protected by the like of Strauss, Cook, Trott, Collingwood and Pietersen. Every time he was moved up the order he flopped. The real question is would England have been a lesser side without him? Most definitely not.
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Bell was a decent player when England where a gun side. He was protected by the like of Strauss, Cook, Trott, Collingwood and Pietersen. Every time he was moved up the order he flopped. The real question is would England have been a lesser side without him? Most definitely not.
Sorry but I can't disagree more with the above. Bell was protected by Collingwood? Are you being serious? Collingwood is not in the same league as Bell as an international or county batsman. With the exception of KP, Trott in his peak years and maybe Cook Ian Bell is as good as England have had in the middle order since Gower. Would England have been a lesser side without him...yes most certainly they would have been. Who would you have bought in to replace him, Ravi Bopara?
However if that's your opinion it is all good :)
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Sorry but I can't disagree more with the above. Bell was protected by Collingwood? Are you being serious? Collingwood is not in the same league as Bell as an international or county batsman. With the exception of KP, Trott in his peak years and maybe Cook Ian Bell is as good as England have had in the middle order since Gower. Would England have been a lesser side without him...yes most certainly they would have been. Who would you have bought in to replace him, Ravi Bopara?
However if that's your opinion it is all good :)
I’m not talking ability. Collingwood brought fight and guts. He might’ve overachieved but he was a vital member in the side.
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I take it you didn't watch the 2013 Ashes then?
I think people are getting Ian Bell and James Vince mixed up in this thread.
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I take it you didn't watch the 2013 Ashes then?
I think people are getting Ian Bell and James Vince mixed up in this thread.
Watched it saw Bell get dropped in each innings he scored a century. But we’ll pretend he’s peak Wally Hammond...
Bell played in the strongest England team in living memory, as the luxury player hidden away at 5/6. Averaged 42, despite all the others doing the heavy lifting.
Bell is was England’s Mark Waugh.
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And Mark Waugh was a very fine player :)
Nobody is comparing Ian Bell to Hobbs, Hammond, Sutcliffe or Hutton (they are all time greats) but he was a very good player for England and I would still take him over Collingwood every time. Ian Bell fine test match player, Collingwood average test match batsman.
Can't we just say...fine player, got runs and lovely to watch.
JT
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Watched it saw Bell get dropped in each innings he scored a century. But we’ll pretend he’s peak Wally Hammond...
Bell played in the strongest England team in living memory, as the luxury player hidden away at 5/6. Averaged 42, despite all the others doing the heavy lifting.
Bell is was England’s Mark Waugh.
Would dearly love to see your cricket stats Mr Navarro/GerrySA/whatever it is you're calling yourself these days. You seem to have a consistent opinion across all your posts that pretty much everything and everyone who has every played the game isn't/wasn't good enough. Maybe give us an insight into your cricketing background, something that gives us a reason to believe you're not here just to constantly troll everyone :)
Bell was a top class player.
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And Mark Waugh was a very fine player :)
Nobody is comparing Ian Bell to Hobbs, Hammond, Sutcliffe or Hutton (they are all time greats) but he was a very good player for England and I would still take him over Collingwood every time. Ian Bell fine test match player, Collingwood average test match batsman.
Can't we just say...fine player, got runs and lovely to watch.
JT
Never said Bell wasn’t a decent player he was just a luxury player.
In the side that reached #1, had been not been around would it have made any difference? For me no.
Pietersen, Cook/Trott, Strauss and Collingwood. Bell comes after all of them.
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Bell a luxury player? Glorious.
Also have a read of this
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2020/09/09/cricket-nerdfour-stats-prove-just-brilliant-ian-bell/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2020/09/09/cricket-nerdfour-stats-prove-just-brilliant-ian-bell/)
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Never said Bell wasn’t a decent player he was just a luxury player.
In the side that reached #1, had been not been around would it have made any difference? For me no.
Pietersen, Cook/Trott, Strauss and Collingwood. Bell comes after all of them.
Just for the sake of a discussion (not an argument) if Ian Bell hadn't of been playing in that England side that reached number 1, who would have replaced him from the County game? Which county player in your opinion was a better fit in the England side than Ian Bell?
I wish Bell was in the current England side or would you prefer Burns, Sibley, Pope etc.?
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I dont know why people give this jokers comments the time of day.
Bell was a fantastic Batsman. Would have got in every other national teams middle order for the majority of his career with the exception of Australia at the start and India in the middle. If thats not top class then someone please tell me what is?
Add to that a great fielder, superb longevity and never had any sort of ego/mental/injury problems that some of the others hes been compared to here had. Dropped permanently too early in my book and some of those brought in to Englands middle order in the years following his axing weren't fit to lace his boots as a test batsman.
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This forum gives me life. :D
In the top 10 England test run scorers of all time.
22 Hundreds & 46 Fifties.
A luxury player. Love it. :D
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Classy player and classy guy. One of the best England players in the past 15 years, and very much under-appreciated by an awful lot of England “fans”.
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He was dropped and brought back a fair few times? Do we know how many?
Some have called him the Gower of his generation.
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We were 51 all out in Jamaica early on in the Flower/Strauss era, Flower was by all accounts a hard taskmaster so Bell was dropped after that match if I remember right.
Whatever Flower told him seemed to work as he was brought back and played pretty well.
We havnt had that may stylish players over the years and as others have said if he was 25 now he would be in the team at the expense of just about anyone apart from Root and maybe Stokes(as a batsman)
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Dropped for 2006 home series vs Sri Lanka back for the Pakistan series same summer. Then for the 2009 West Indies series as mentioned, back mid way through Ashes series.
Give me a player who responds to being dropped twice to have the career he did from 2009 onwards anyday. Many have folded and faded after being dropped twice.
You don't fluke 22 100s, 7k test runs and get carried or if you lack resolve, character and strength of mind. Not in elite cricket. Not in Flower's team. KP to this day calls him class and one of his favourite batting partners. Tendulkar has talked in high praise about him. Good enough for me
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Root is the only player we have better (average says so). Simple. The guy was a genuine test batsmen
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Good old white boys club on this joke platform.
I’m done with you lot.
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Only twice then?
I didn't mention it to encourage the 'not much substance' fools.
Like Gower, he could be infuriating as well as majestic. We have to admit that, even as fans.
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He never went to public school. :)
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Good old white boys club on this joke platform.
I’m done with you lot.
I think we were done with you when we banned you the first three times.
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Only twice then?
I didn't mention it to encourage the 'not much substance' fools.
Like Gower, he could be infuriating as well as majestic. We have to admit that, even as fans.
I think that view tends to follow players who make it look easy then get out. Perhaps it seems careless. Gower often got out with no feet caught in the slips region...
Everyone gets out at some point whether they are blasted out or seem to play a carefree shot. KP got out reverse sweeping in a test match, looked awful and unnessasary, yet when he early on reversed Murali for 6 in a test we wondered how the hell he did that.
I admired Gower's batting and knew he could get out at any time, same with Bell. I'd watch both of them bat all day.
Test records of both have them up in the very good category, but the game is not all about stats :)
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Plenty of style and plenty of substance. Pretty much all his peers rave about him - recently heard Shoaib Akhtar talking about how good he was at driving with the swing.
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Mmm Bell strangely was never my cup of tea and I couldn't put the finger on it but he was a top class England BATSMAN and has flashes of World class brilliance.
It funny how we see players I think he made the most of his ability and was strong mentally and expect him to be a top class coach.
Great career and a humble Decent person
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Always thought Bell suffered a bit in comparison to the level of hype he got, but then that was hardly his fault! If you were being churlish you'd say his career stats are a little flattering given he padded them out a bit with some heavy runs against 'weaker' teams, but you can't blame him for that either. Once he'd settled into a role at 5 rather than trying to live up to being the promised messiah at 3 he was awesome, and never less than enjoyable to watch. Should have bowled more :D