Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Willow and Willow Trees.... => Topic started by: Chad on March 19, 2021, 11:10:45 PM
-
Hi folks, aware this topic may have been done to death in recent years, but figured I'd ask the question.
What do you all think about Butterfly Willow? It would be great to have a vast range of answers, from folks who have used it extensively, folks who avoid/swear by it, what you like about the stain and what locations you like them in, and of course, folks who make it. I'll have a simple poll of a few answers, but looking for actual posts.
For those of you who don't know what Butterfly Willow is - there are examples below - you can see they have varying degrees of staining, but the stain is quite distinct.
I'll be updating this thread later on with what I've found to be my limited experience, and what differences I've found in the way Butterfly bats are made across approx 9-10 different makers. (All will be completely subjective)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgx94V9Q/20210319-225216.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/75YjtZ5h)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLpxQHc6/20210319-225603.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DSjH93Gg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NcTMD4w/20210319-221313.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4KHLj7sf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBv9n3mP/20210319-221325.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HcGZmYkQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdWNLqsv/20210319-221344.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xX4psyrp)
-
I've had a couple from Chase, one of which is now the favourite bat in my club's bag. If the stain is on the face I've found it needs a bit more patience when you're preparing it but if you put the time in they're every bit as good as a clean faced bat.
-
For those of us on a budget, they do just fine.
I have two and love them.
-
Having worked with 20 plus butterfly clefts, they are not the easiest to shape, they tear out and are an absolute PITA to finish cleanly.
However, they usually perform very very well and when offered at the budget price point they should be, they are great!
What really boils my blood is the price point that many manufacturers offer them at.
Paul Aldred selling effectively a G4 cleft at G1 money is a prime example of this. His markup on his “emperor” butterfly range is an insult imo.
-
Totally surprising post, and even tougher to comment on, but very exciting one
As these pics show, amount of butterfly stain is varying on every single bat, which makes it even more difficult to assess their quality.
Butterfly stained bat with no bar in the face or on the back will play the best, even if it is colour only stain.
These bats will sound hard.
Butterfly bars don't add/deteriorate bat performance, only esthetic, they add hardness if not pressed correctly especially near to splice.
Mostly their grain structure will be as good as, at least, grade 2 willow, they do feel bigger for their weights.
Why not asking a high price if they would perform as grade 1.
For me this stain is purely cosmetic but it takes longer to find the right one
-
I have one butterfly bought last year. I used it in 2 small innings and absolutely smashed it. Butterfly mark is away from playing area so it doesn't get involved in hitting ball so when I say smashed it I mean that's sign of well made bat overall plus me playing well on given day.
Like buzz said for people on low budget it is a must have if you manage to buy one with clean face that's just gold.
-
I wonder if these marks below would be classed as butterfly?
(https://i.postimg.cc/261kpz6x/11-A81-E35-301-F-4000-AB0-B-70-F060-BBD860.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YGwKYBQ4)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvxKjpVz/8-ADA9-ACD-F240-4-C62-B39-F-F428-E671-EABE.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/p52wcQGR)
If yes, then I’d pick it every single time. I imagine like all bats it is down to the press. Personally I’m not a massive fan of its looks especially some of the larger stains so would prefer to cover with a sticker if possible. But if it performed and I couldn’t cover it then I wouldn’t let it pass.
-
Don't have an answer but a question. Why are these types of bats now up marketed in price and sold as desirable over a grade 2 for example as some manufacturers in the UK are doing...
The look horrible, which is fine for a certain price, I don't think I'm going to be convinced they are now equivalent to a standard grade 2 or 3.
Gut feeling is its total BS.
-
Love butterfly willow love some of the markings and if made right will play awesome!!!
-
Never been a fan until I got one yesterday. Response is outrageous.
In the modern world of swiping left/right etc, most people don't go past the superficial.
I could sell the most beautiful G1 plank for £300, try and get someone to buy the ugliest trampoline for £100 and I know what most people would do
-
Huge fan. Only got 3 bats left from a former collection of 14. 2 of them are butterfly’s. I’ll let the poseurs buy the G1++++ and I’ll get the ugly munters at a bargain price.
But keep it quiet or the prices will go up.
-
Like any bat if used enough they will play well 🤫 only issue is consistency and were the stain is they tended to sound slightly different but people go off sound too much. I also like a hard bar in certain areas of the blade.
Dead Knott's I don't mind in the blade either in certain areas but I have never been overly fussy about looks don't get me wrong I like nice clean white wood put in terms of performance have no correlation.
-
Not a fan at all. I think they look horrendous, and aesthetic pleasure is one of the factors I consider when choosing a bat.
That said, I know some people at my club with them, and in the right hands they still go like the clappers.
-
I've only had one butterfly bat - a B3. Because it isn't very attractive and was cheap, it is my 'wet weather' bat. However, it is one I keep going back to for nets etc. The pick up is fabulous (not that that has anything to do with the butterfly stains) and the bat pings well. I have no qualms about getting a bit of damage to the edge etc. Its got a few repaired cracks and I really enjoy using it.
Over this winter I have tried bleaching it, to make it a little more attractive. We shall see if this has an impact on its performance. I am assuming not, as many manufacturers over the past few decades would bleach butterfly to make it more appealing on the shelves.
In short, the looks are unappealing, the response is excellent and was a cheap way into a bat with nine straight (but slightly uneven) grains. I would not hesitate to look at buying another butterfly, the next time I need (or 'can't resist') another bat.
David
-
What is there to dislike? A good butterfly cleft outperforms a non-stained one, and from most makers gets sold at a massive discount. In my experience they last longer than white willow too - all the upsides. There's a reason they used to be highly sought after before the cricket world got precious about grading.
One thing though - just because it's sometimes sold as its own grade, don't get fooled into thinking all butterfly clefts are the same. You still want to look for/avoid the same things as you would with a normal cleft. Can be full of knots with wonky grains, can be a beautiful clean cleft - ignore the stain.
-
I did not really know what one was when I first arrived here (admittedly quite a long time ago). I've still never used one, but would consider should I ever buy another bat. I think this forum has had the opposite effect on me that it has on some people; it's made me realise the futility of paying big money for bats. (Not that I ever really did.)
-
As @LEACHY48 mentioned I don’t find them the easiest to shape and work with but from the ones I have had they have performed very well and I would certainly use one.
I know Dean from Vulcan is a big fan and believe he used one for many a season at a decent standard and scored lots of runs so nothing wrong with them at all.
Not even going to get into the grading price point on them as that’s each persons view but seeing as how in the main they are priced lower than they offer superb value especially from Companies that press a bat very well.
-
I bought an H4L butterfly last year and sold it to a third eleven youngster.
He’s really happy with it, so good stuff all round.
-
I have had 3 butterflys - one from Laver and 2 from Chase. One of the Chase ones is opening up nicely but that was hand picked by IJC. The other 2 are duds. I think the fact that these are seen as budget options might cause less attention to getting the perfect press or balance. Its a business after all and if the bat maker has finite amount of time, the most of it is going to go into getting the highest margin bat perfect. At least thats what I would do if my livelihood depended on it. And as with any willow at any price, there are good ones and bad ones.
-
Not for me, I would rather find a nice sapwood bat with some faint hardbar marks showing through.
-
Had some very good butterfly stained bats from Dean and B3.
I do think the prices has sky rocketed on them which is a real shame.
A good bat maker will make a good bat the majority of time and butterfly stained bats are no exception. Prefer butterfly stained bats to grade 3/4
-
Had some very good butterfly stained bats from Dean and B3.
I do think the prices has sky rocketed on them which is a real shame.
A good bat maker will make a good bat the majority of time and butterfly stained bats are no exception. Prefer butterfly stained bats to grade 3/4
JT, would a decent butterfly bat not perform as good as grade 1😀🤔
-
JT, would a decent butterfly bat not perform as good as grade 1😀🤔
In my opinion it is more about the person wielding the bat than the actual bat.
You can get a great performing butterfly bat and you can obviously get a great performing grade 1.
Watch me in the nets with a butterfly bat or a grade 1 and it will probably sound like a tin can but give it to someone better and it will sound like a gunshot going off.
As bat badgers we tend to over think. Give a good batsman a butterfly bat and he will score runs, give him a grade 1 and he will score runs. The common denominator is the good batsman.
-
In my opinion it is more about the person wielding the bat than the actual bat.
You can get a great performing butterfly bat and you can obviously get a great performing grade 1.
Watch me in the nets with a butterfly bat or a grade 1 and it will probably sound like a tin can but give it to someone better and it will sound like a gunshot going off.
As bat badgers we tend to over think. Give a good batsman a butterfly bat and he will score runs, give him a grade 1 and he will score runs. The common denominator is the good batsman.
I'm guessing you're a decent batter as well
Magic word is "over thinking"
-
@AJ2014 Oh no I'm a terrible batsman hence the comment about bats sounding and going better once they are in the hands of better players.
;)
-
@AJ2014 Oh no I'm a terrible batsman hence the comment about bats sounding and going better once they are in the hands of better players.
;)
JT, I'm sure you've not found that right bat yet 😀😀
-
A good bat maker will make a good bat the majority of time and butterfly stained bats are no exception. Prefer butterfly stained bats to grade 3/4
Not forgetting that butterfly is actually grade 4? (I think.)
Should we not at least give Paul Aldred some credit for being ahead of the curve on this?
-
For sure, he deserves all the credits for promoting Butterfly bats the way he did and succeeded!
-
Not forgetting that butterfly is actually grade 4? (I think.)
Should we not at least give Paul Aldred some credit for being ahead of the curve on this?
We should give Paul plenty of credit for being an excellent bat maker. I don't think he deserves a great deal of credit on his pricing structure in all honesty. But if people are willing to pay £290 for a butterfly stained bat it's completely up to them.
-
On the wright's website butterfly can be graded up to a grade 2 bat.
You can get amazing clean straight grains with the stain on the back. Not often but occasionally.
Mostly they should be lower grade bats, but if you can try a few and find one you like, bargains are there to be had.
This is why I choose a batmaker who makes handles I like the shape of then I choose of the rack in my weight range.
This year my spikes cost more than my bat though... 😲
-
Think in butterfly willow, at least, we should ignore the y term "grading".
-
On the wright's website butterfly can be graded up to a grade 2 bat.
You can get amazing clean straight grains with the stain on the back. Not often but occasionally.
Mostly they should be lower grade bats, but if you can try a few and find one you like, bargains are there to be had.
This is why I choose a batmaker who makes handles I like the shape of then I choose of the rack in my weight range.
This year my spikes cost more than my bat though... 😲
From the JS Wrights' Web site
Butterfly Stain
This is “Butterfly Stain”, so called as it resembles the wings and body of a butterfly. It is attributed to pruning and frost damage, especially by hard pruning of larger branches that causes scarring in the timber. (Found in our own research and confirmed by the Forestry Commission). Although most people do not understand the butterfly stain, it adds strength to the finished bat, giving longer life of the bat with much less likelihood of the bats breaking.
A GRADE 1 BLADE
A Grade 1 is the best looking blade, though it will not necessarily play the best. There may be some red wood evident on the edge of the blade. The grain on the face will be straight and there will be a minimum of 6 grains visible. There may be the odd small knot or speck in the edge or back but the playing area should be clean.
A GRADE 2 BLADE
A Grade 2 blade is also very good quality and normally a larger amount of red wood can be seen on the edge of a blade, this has no effect on the playing ability of the bat it is purely cosmetic. Again there will be at least 6 straight grains on the face of the blade with maybe some blemishes, pin knots or “speck” visible, we also put the top 2% of the excellent quality butterfly blades that we get into Grade 2.
A GRADE 3 BLADE
This is a middle grade that is produced in much higher numbers than the top grades and it offers very good value for money. A Grade 3 Blade has up to half colour across the blade which again has no direct relation to the playing ability of the wood, it just has less visual attraction. There will be a minimum of 5 grains on the face of the blade which may not always be perfectly straight. Again some small knots or butterfly stain may be present with sometimes more prominent “speck”.
A GRADE 4 BLADE
A Grade 4 Blade is normally over half colour or contains butterfly stain (see our page on Imperfections in Willow). It will still play as well as the other grades. Any number of grains are possible with often only 4 grains, the willow containing ‘butterfly’ stain is very strong, there could also be more “speck” and other faults.
This is the most consistent approach to grading.
What it doesn't talk about is low density willow.
Or any mention of grade 1++?+++? Willow, which is nonsense marketing speak.
-
But it does talk plenty about looks not affecting performance.
Playing devil's advocate: maybe they've just got willow to shift?
-
My understanding was that you can't just buy Grade 1 from JS Wright, you have to buy a batch which contains all grades of willow?
-
Yes both correct... You can't buy 100 g1 clefts from wright's (in fact you can't really buy willow from wright's as all their willow is already pre sold pretty much.
You buy batches of willow with a mix of clefts, the more you buy the better willow you get.
So SS/SG etc who buy the most willow get a lot of the best clefts.
Which is why more UK batmakers are growing their own willow, see GN, Chase, Etc
-
Don't think there's any kind of grading in butterfly willow.
But if one puts all the attention: materials, pressing, etc, there is greater chance to produce better butterfly bats, often.
-
Don't think there's any kind of grading in butterfly willow.
But if one puts all the attention: materials, pressing, etc, there is greater chance to produce better butterfly bats, often.
Buzz has literally copied and pasted what Wrights grade Butterfly - the really nice ones (top 2%) they have as G2 blades, and the not so nice ones as G3 and G4 blades. It doesn't matter what you think - it's what they've put on their website...
Thanks for the input so far folks, great to hear from folk who have worked with Butterfly willow as well. :)
-
My understanding was that you can't just buy Grade 1 from JS Wright, you have to buy a batch which contains all grades of willow?
I think I already understood this. (I'd have learnt it on here.) But promoting all grades as perfectly functional would only help in selling the said batches? (Again, playing devil's advocate.)
-
From the JS Wrights' Web site
Butterfly Stain
This is “Butterfly Stain”, so called as it resembles the wings and body of a butterfly. It is attributed to pruning and frost damage, especially by hard pruning of larger branches that causes scarring in the timber. (Found in our own research and confirmed by the Forestry Commission). Although most people do not understand the butterfly stain, it adds strength to the finished bat, giving longer life of the bat with much less likelihood of the bats breaking.
A GRADE 1 BLADE
A Grade 1 is the best looking blade, though it will not necessarily play the best. There may be some red wood evident on the edge of the blade. The grain on the face will be straight and there will be a minimum of 6 grains visible. There may be the odd small knot or speck in the edge or back but the playing area should be clean.
A GRADE 2 BLADE
A Grade 2 blade is also very good quality and normally a larger amount of red wood can be seen on the edge of a blade, this has no effect on the playing ability of the bat it is purely cosmetic. Again there will be at least 6 straight grains on the face of the blade with maybe some blemishes, pin knots or “speck” visible, we also put the top 2% of the excellent quality butterfly blades that we get into Grade 2.
A GRADE 3 BLADE
This is a middle grade that is produced in much higher numbers than the top grades and it offers very good value for money. A Grade 3 Blade has up to half colour across the blade which again has no direct relation to the playing ability of the wood, it just has less visual attraction. There will be a minimum of 5 grains on the face of the blade which may not always be perfectly straight. Again some small knots or butterfly stain may be present with sometimes more prominent “speck”.
A GRADE 4 BLADE
A Grade 4 Blade is normally over half colour or contains butterfly stain (see our page on Imperfections in Willow). It will still play as well as the other grades. Any number of grains are possible with often only 4 grains, the willow containing ‘butterfly’ stain is very strong, there could also be more “speck” and other faults.
This is the most consistent approach to grading.
What it doesn't talk about is low density willow.
Or any mention of grade 1++?+++? Willow, which is nonsense marketing speak.
This grade 1, 2, 3, 4 is referring to white English willow and not referring to butterfly stain willow.
Only 1st paragraph is about butterfly willow
-
This grade 1, 2, 3, 4 is referring to white English willow and not referring to butterfly stain willow.
Only 1st paragraph is about butterfly willow
A GRADE 2 BLADE
A Grade 2 blade is also very good quality and normally a larger amount of red wood can be seen on the edge of a blade, this has no effect on the playing ability of the bat it is purely cosmetic. Again there will be at least 6 straight grains on the face of the blade with maybe some blemishes, pin knots or “speck” visible, we also put the top 2% of the excellent quality butterfly blades that we get into Grade 2.
A GRADE 3 BLADE
This is a middle grade that is produced in much higher numbers than the top grades and it offers very good value for money. A Grade 3 Blade has up to half colour across the blade which again has no direct relation to the playing ability of the wood, it just has less visual attraction. There will be a minimum of 5 grains on the face of the blade which may not always be perfectly straight. Again some small knots or butterfly stain may be present with sometimes more prominent “speck”.
A GRADE 4 BLADE
A Grade 4 Blade is normally over half colour or contains butterfly stain (see our page on Imperfections in Willow). It will still play as well as the other grades. Any number of grains are possible with often only 4 grains, the willow containing ‘butterfly’ stain is very strong, there could also be more “speck” and other faults.
If you just Ctrl+F and type in Butterfly, you can see where it's mentioned if you really can't be bothered reading it. I've put it in bold just for you though. ;)
Also, thanks to whoever added in the last option to the poll, was late at night and had forgotten to add an answer along those lines! :)
-
And to think that some of you podshavers said butterfly was hard work... ;)
-
A GRADE 2 BLADE
A Grade 2 blade is also very good quality and normally a larger amount of red wood can be seen on the edge of a blade, this has no effect on the playing ability of the bat it is purely cosmetic. Again there will be at least 6 straight grains on the face of the blade with maybe some blemishes, pin knots or “speck” visible, we also put the top 2% of the excellent quality butterfly blades that we get into Grade 2.
A GRADE 3 BLADE
This is a middle grade that is produced in much higher numbers than the top grades and it offers very good value for money. A Grade 3 Blade has up to half colour across the blade which again has no direct relation to the playing ability of the wood, it just has less visual attraction. There will be a minimum of 5 grains on the face of the blade which may not always be perfectly straight. Again some small knots or butterfly stain may be present with sometimes more prominent “speck”.
A GRADE 4 BLADE
A Grade 4 Blade is normally over half colour or contains butterfly stain (see our page on Imperfections in Willow). It will still play as well as the other grades. Any number of grains are possible with often only 4 grains, the willow containing ‘butterfly’ stain is very strong, there could also be more “speck” and other faults.
If you just Ctrl+F and type in Butterfly, you can see where it's mentioned if you really can't be bothered reading it. I've put it in bold just for you though. ;)
Also, thanks to whoever added in the last option to the poll, was late at night and had forgotten to add an answer along those lines! :)
I'm sorry Chad, I'm working, didn't read thoroughly.
-
So who makes the best butterfly bats? If I have to take a punt, who shall I go with?
-
So who makes the best butterfly bats? If I have to take a punt, who shall I go with?
Like asking 'who makes the best grade one bats?', there's no one size fits all answer. Chances are if there's a batmaker you like they can do you a butterfly bat.
-
If you are interested in trying one, take a look at my bat making thread mate. @Maverick06
Lovely stick. So who makes the best butterfly bats? If I have to take a punt, who shall I go with?
-
So who makes the best butterfly bats? If I have to take a punt, who shall I go with?
I’ve had a number of butterfly’s and the advice I would give is go to a small maker as they will take as much care over it as they would a G1+++++.
The big boys may well give the lower grades to the less experienced to practise on.
I’ve had great butterfly’s from:
Aldred
Vulcan
Red Ink
Planks from
MSR
Kookaburra
-
I have a Chase and a Keeley butterfly, they are both magnificent. The chase was £75, the Keeley £250 (but it has a clean face, the stain is on the back). I also had an MSR butterfly which was dreadful.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HWJ5FS4f/IMG_20191231_172340.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HjgVy9N2)
I would second the suggestion of finding a local maker, although the Robinsons ones look brilliant.
Just remember you will need to give them a few coats of oil. Otherwise they can feel hard and rubbish. The oil really makes a difference.
-
So who makes the best butterfly bats? If I have to take a punt, who shall I go with?
Nice and easy 😀 you'll be spending much more money finding the right one, it ain't so simples!
-
IMO a butterfly cleft is just that. A cleft with a visual imperfection in shape of Butterfly. Like all other clefts which may or may not be visually appealing, the performance depends on individual cleft as well as how it was pressed, shaped etc. Does the stain gives it extra strength? Yes but does it make the bat performance better. NO.