Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: ppccopener on July 21, 2021, 08:37:20 AM
-
England squad announced today and one newspaper tipping a nailed on return for Bairstow.
I know some of the youngsters won’t all make it thru, Crawley maybe taken out for a while, Sibley not sure about.
But I cannot fathom why JB would get a recall for Test matches.Maybe it’s not what you know it’s who you know.
!
-
If Bairstow really is back that's an atrocious bit of selection unless he's the backup to the backup. Even if that's the case, why not get one of your gun white ball players playing more white ball cricket in the run up to a WC?
-
Bracey looked out of his depth as a batter and second keeper, I think Bairstow will be in the top 3 again which has been tried before, and therefore back up keeper.
You need some sort of back up keeper if Foakes is not fit, or had no cricket at all,but it's the batting that has caused us issues.
If we don't try to fix the batting we will continue to struggle home and away. Someone like Malan could do a job but if the choice is an out of form Crawley or Bairstow who has done nothing I'd rather stick with Crawley.
Problem for England I think is there's no obvious number 3 from County cricket to slot in.
-
Why not stick with Burns and Sibley, and give Hameed a try at 3?
-
Problem for England I think is there's no obvious number 3 from County cricket to slot in.
At least partly because there has hardly been any county cricket?
Dan Lawrence, for example, won't have played any (hate this) 'red-ball' cricket from the end of the last Test series to the beginning of the next.
-
Why not stick with Burns and Sibley, and give Hameed a try at 3?
A season behind him might be better, but England got him around the squad last series, and he has had success against India away.
Normally when someone gets called into the squad but doesn't play it's a sign they have them in their plans.
-
This all seems a bit random, does it not. I don't ascribe to the "we hate Jonny" view espoused by many on here, but I also think that if he is to return to the Test side, unless common sense has prevailed and he is taking the gloves back, in which case batting form is slightly less relevant, then he ought to be told to go and dominate in County cricket. He has not played any first class cricket since India, so throwing him in just risks causing more uncertainty as to whether he is good enough.
-
This all seems a bit random, does it not. I don't ascribe to the "we hate Jonny" view espoused by many on here, but I also think that if he is to return to the Test side, unless common sense has prevailed and he is taking the gloves back, in which case batting form is slightly less relevant, then he ought to be told to go and dominate in County cricket. He has not played any first class cricket since India, so throwing him in just risks causing more uncertainty as to whether he is good enough.
Love Bairstow, but as a white ball cricketer. Genuinely think he is one of the all time greats for England in short format cricket.
Can't see a good reason to include him, even as a backup keeper. Foakes and Buttler are ahead of him, if either of them are out then I'd look at the guys performing earlier in the season in CC. Would rather see the likes of Hameed in the squad as batting backups.
-
https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/2194377/england-men-announce-17-player-squad-for-opening-two-tests-against-india (https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/2194377/england-men-announce-17-player-squad-for-opening-two-tests-against-india)
The omission of Woakes in English conditions is mindblowing
-
A bruised heel. Doing what? He's spent practically the last 7 months doing nothing...
-
https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/2194377/england-men-announce-17-player-squad-for-opening-two-tests-against-india (https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/2194377/england-men-announce-17-player-squad-for-opening-two-tests-against-india)
The omission of Woakes in English conditions is mindblowing
Picking him with an injury would be mindblowing.
-
Bairstow is indeed back, named with Crawley and Hameed who is currently batting against India in a warm up game.
Good to see Robinson back to restart his career.
-
Yeah agreed on Robinson. In English conditions would be daft not to pick him given how well he bowled against NZ.
-
Can't see a good reason to include him, even as a backup keeper. Foakes and Buttler are ahead of him, if either of them are out then I'd look at the guys performing earlier in the season in CC. Would rather see the likes of Hameed in the squad as batting backups.
To be fair to England, I am struggling to think of a keeper who is a better bet at present, what with Foakes out. Davies has not been keeping for Lancashire, Bracey was rather badly found out by the Kiwis and Simpson has not done much at Middlesex in FC cricket.
-
Funny, Bracey was such a popular pick!
I'd back Simpson or Ben Brown to do a decent short-term job, if needed.
But we're still hoping Bairstow will rediscover his batting, aren't we?
-
Funny, Bracey was such a popular pick!
I'd back Simpson or Ben Brown to do a decent short-term job, if needed.
But we're still hoping Bairstow will rediscover his batting, aren't we?
England have covered a few bases with selection. Buttler will be keeping the batting spots are a choice of playing someone not in form (Crawley), giving more time to another(Sibley), back to one tried and failed before(Bairstow), or someone who may be good enough and maybe has the most long term potential(Hameed).
I'm 50/50 on Sibley, really can't fathom whether it's worth sticking with him or not.
It will be interesting to see which way England go.....of the most recent batsmen(top order) I've seen Hameed has the most potential. Getting the timing right to get him back is tricky.
The final 11 thou I think England will revert back to Bairstow probably in Crawleys place. Hope I'm wrong.
-
The Number Three position has been a massive problem area for a number of years but it is a fairly good time for Hameed to chalk up a ton
-
The Number Three position has been a massive problem area for a number of years but it is a fairly good time for Hameed to chalk up a ton
And chalk up a ton he does! Against a full strength Indian bowling attack as well.
-
And chalk up a ton he does! Against a full strength Indian bowling attack as well.
No one else has made a significant score in that match and that is telling.
-
Hameed at 3 looking quite a tempting proposition. Trott wasn't far off a third opener and that worked out okay for England...
-
Always nice to see Hameed scoring runs but ‘full strength India attack’ is pushing it. Shami and Ashwin walk into the Indian side.
-
India losing a few to injury before the series has started. Gill has a broken shin. Sundar broken thumb. Agarwal hit on his head by Siraj out with concussion.
Yeah 4-0 home win. No doubts at all.
-
Pffffft!
-
I still don't see how that Indian top order is going to score a big weight of runs against the moving ball
-
You might be right. But we won’t either.
It will be interesting how we line up. Stick with Pope and Crawley or shoe Bairstow back in.
It’s a bit early for him I think but they could re jig a bit and put Hameed in 3, keeping Burns and another chance for Sibley.
That would mean choosing either Pope or Lawrence for one spot maybe.
-
Isn't Pope injured now?
-
Pope has passed his fitness test today.
I have real concerns about the Eng preparation, none of them have played proper cricket since the last test apart from Hameed.
We are going to be very under prepared for this game and very short of proper batting. The likely team is below. The batters really need to step up.
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Pope
Buttler (wk)
Curran
Robinson
Leach
Broad
Anderson
-
You might be right there Buzz, choosing to stick or twist with the younger batsmen is a tricky call, two tests maybe and see how they do.
With this weather about S.Curran back into their right handers could cause some problems for them. I expect him to play a significant part bowling wise.
The spot Pope or Lawrence at 5 is a tough call. With Hameed in the squad and in the runs I would be tempted to play him myself, maybe at 3 and leaving out Crawley. Or Hameed opens and keep Crawley or Lawrence.
As you say virtually no match practice it won't be easy to score runs, Trent bridge normally swings around
We shall see.
-
I should add that Lawrence could play ahead of Pope.
-
Personally I'd have Lawrence in ahead of Pope, purely on Pope's run of injuries. Buttler at 6 I like the look of, but then a bit concerned at how long the tail is.
-
Curran and Robinson are capable of contributing something in that side. If Woakes was fit you could see us leaving out Leach for him. Prefer a spinner in always but of all the English grounds Trent Bridge maybe the one we don't need spin.
hameed is a genuine opener but it's a number 3 we need, I think we need Sibley to make something significant first two tests.
England are investing in Pope/Lawrence/Crawley- despite poor scores they are probably the best in the Country. No one else springs to mind in those positions.
-
Apparently Pope is out and it's a shootout between Lawrence and Bairstow. Get the feeling the wrong choice is inevitable
-
It’s a shame Alex Lees isn’t spoken about when it comes to one of the opening spots, the lads managed to rediscover his form with Durham over the past couple of seasons and certainly churned his fair share of runs out
-
Bairstow will play which is very hard on Lawrence.
-
Indeed it is if that's right. Of Crawley Pope and Lawrence the latter at least looks when he's in to play some shots and doesn't look like he can be restricted for too long. Maybe he has the better temperament.
Bairstow might as well try and clout it, there's holes in his defence.
-
I'm troubled by Sibley, he just doesn't look like he has it to me.
I'd love to see Lawrence get a run of games, his lack of fussiness is refreshing given all the new age funkiness around the crease. I still wonder if Vince (yes, I know) can play a part as well in the current setup. Certainly when it comes to the ashes, I'd rather send Lawrence and Vince than Pope, Crawley or Sibley.
-
Bairstow will play which is very hard on Lawrence.
Hahahahahaha
Bairstow … this England set up is a joke
-
Surely this is the perfect opportunity to play Hameed. He has played more red ball then any of the other players, has a 100 against an attack featuring a lot of these bowlers. What does it matter if he or someone one else bats lower than they do normally. We used to blood players into the test side in the middle order.
-
Bairstow playing, fml
-
No Leach, four seamers. Ashwin not playing for India either, so it's madness everywhere
-
No Leach, four seamers. Ashwin not playing for India either, so it's madness everywhere
Think India has done the right thing..Jadeja is a very good bowler in his own right and a more than handy bat. England not picking a spinner just baffles me.
-
Given the absence of Stokes or Woakes to balance the side and this being the first test of the series, not a surprise thsy England have played an extra batsman. India leaving out Ashwin suggests they have read the pitch the same way England has.
Good toss to win with the weather good today than more overcast for the next few days
-
Great start then eh
-
Our batting has the solidity of a Chocolate pudding
-
Who was saying Bumrah can't exploit swinging conditions? 😂
-
India lack swing bowlers which always hurt them in England. Looking forward to see how Siraj and Shardul go here.
-
Interesting... the failed review looked more like a caught behind than the successful one in real time! Glad Kohli listened to Pant and went for it.
-
Another session with a shocking over rate
-
Come on Jonny
-
Pretty poor from Kettleborough...getting two wrong so far. The Bairstow decision looked pretty plumb as well.
-
Has Pope been dropped or his is injured?
Iv always been a fan of Sibley and the proper opening role he plays when we have a team of stroke players but I do now feel his time is up as it’s just so one dimensional and he needs to go and work a bit on rotation for me. As far YJB just don’t feel he should be anywhere near the red ball side as he has had so many chances and failed on most of them.
-
Has Pope been dropped or his is injured?
Iv always been a fan of Sibley and the proper opening role he plays when we have a team of stroke players but I do now feel his time is up as it’s just so one dimensional and he needs to go and work a bit on rotation for me. As far YJB just don’t feel he should be anywhere near the red ball side as he has had so many chances and failed on most of them.
He failed a fitness test
-
He failed a fitness test
Thanks mate
-
This team is hopeless
-
This team is hopeless
That’s a very generous assessment.
-
Thank god for Root in this team
-
Root is carrying us and has done for a long time now. Bairstow wouldn't be in my side but to be fair at least he got a partnership going with Root. As did Crawley getting the scoreboard moving until he got out.
Their bowlers are just as good as ours, they havnt batted well here previously and we havnt for a long time. 0-5, 0-4 predictions read on here were just baffling.
-
Hopeless, pathetic, abject.
-
We are not going to make 200
-
At least we've got the Hundred eh
-
1 brings 2 Thakur! Indeed!
-
Thought Bairstow didn't do that bad with his 29 under these conditions.
Wait until both sides have batted. Don't think Ind will do any better either with ball moving both ways. Plus Ind have to bat last.
-
Forecast doesn't look great for a result, even given this abject batting performance.
-
Just got home after coaching all day, what kind of pitch has been prepared at Nottingham.
-
At least the 100 is on later
-
Thought Bairstow didn't do that bad with his 29 under these conditions.
Wait until both sides have batted. Don't think Ind will do any better either with ball moving both ways. Plus Ind have to bat last.
Best days on most pitches to bat are 2 and 3 so if India get 250 -300 doesn’t t matter most likely if they bat last as on form
Of the last couple of years England rarely pass 250. Just baffling why our red ball batting has gone so far down hill over recent years
-
Just got home after coaching all day, what kind of pitch has been prepared at Nottingham.
It's swung and seamed all day, they have 3 quality seamers but we were 138-3. There's nothing wrong with the pitch.
-
Sam Curren lives batting against India in the UK, seem to remember he was man of the series last time India came here
-
Just baffling why our red ball batting has gone so far down hill over recent years
Really Chris? It's not baffling at all when you look at the counties and England pathways and if we stick to the players in and around the red ball squads over the last 5 years... Just look at the batsmen they have picked and continue to favour (Bairstow/Buttler/Curran (although, tbf to Bairstow he kinda did ok ish today and Curran seems to be the man to use against india it seems))..
Add in Hales, Duckett blah blah blah.
players being picked are white ball players over the last 5 ish years until fairly recently and those recent ones are raw and we are seeing they aren't really upto it sadly. Let's hope India's batting is as bad and Anderson/Broad can ript hrough the top order
It's been a really enjoyable day to watch of test cricket. As it should be, challenging to bat in and helpful to the bowlers but you still have to bowl well and can't just 'put it there'
-
Brilliant bowling from the Indian seamers! Looks like the break has done Bumrah a world of good!
-
Have to agree, the lack of divergence between red and white ball squads is starting to look a bit foolish. Sibley won't open in ODIs so why do the likes of Bairstow seem to keep getting chances in red ball?
-
Really Chris? It's not baffling at all when you look at the counties and England pathways and if we stick to the players in and around the red ball squads over the last 5 years... Just look at the batsmen they have picked and continue to favour (Bairstow/Buttler/Curran (although, tbf to Bairstow he kinda did ok ish today and Curran seems to be the man to use against india it seems))..
Add in Hales, Duckett blah blah blah.
players being picked are white ball players over the last 5 ish years until fairly recently and those recent ones are raw and we are seeing they aren't really upto it sadly. Let's hope India's batting is as bad and Anderson/Broad can ript hrough the top order
It's been a really enjoyable day to watch of test cricket. As it should be, challenging to bat in and helpful to the bowlers but you still have to bowl well and can't just 'put it there'
No totally agree my question should have been phased in that why isn’t the test side as settled as the ODI side which is basically impossible to get into when so many keep failing. Openers are not really test quality, Crawley jury is out, 4 sorted, Pope again like Crawley, 6 sorted, Butler???? Batting and keeping vs well regarded option with as good red ball stats and much between gloves and then bowlers that actually often made an awful score look just below avg score
-
No totally agree my question should have been phased in that why isn’t the test side as settled as the ODI side which is basically impossible to get into when so many keep failing. Openers are not really test quality, Crawley jury is out, 4 sorted, Pope again like Crawley, 6 sorted, Butler???? Batting and keeping vs well regarded option with as good red ball stats and much between gloves and then bowlers that actually often made an awful score look just below avg score
fair.
Sadly counties just don't pull through many red ball players. The focus from the off is on short formats and has been for years. Where are players learning the skills required for long formats now? From kids to Pro at all levels it's all about attack. No wonder players can't do it. They can smash a kook non moving ball a mile tho :)
-
Perfect day for India....but given the conditions, as we saw today, all it takes is one bad session.
-
Perfect day for India....but given the conditions, as we saw today, all it takes is one bad session.
Maybe but you still have to bowl well in helpful conditions, Shami and Jaspreet were superb today.
It's high class seam and swing bowling with a couple of bad shots from us.
Said before English conditions work well for us until you have bowlers on the opposition as good as we are, if not better.
-
How much time can we give our top 3 before starting to ask questions about their places within the team?
I'm all for giving people a chance, but we're in dire straits for some reliability in the top order. Currently, we are always on the back foot from the get-go and I think its time...time to stream and develop red/white ball players separately.
-
Whoever they pick in test cricket, well,they don't seem to be very good. This is beginning to feel like the 90's era all over again. Even then though,guys like Ramprakash and Hick who didn't live up to expectations in the test arena,they were scoring big big first class runs and averaging 50 plus.
-
If you're excluding Root,Stokes and Burns to some extent, I'm afraid IMO the best available 'new' batsmen we have probably are in and around the team. Maybe we just have to accept it.
In this current side I wouldn't have Bairstow, he batted ok today to be fair, but he's had loads of chances. I'd play Foakes as a keeper and probably Butler as a batsman.
Apart from that
Hameed(could of played in this game)
Sibley
Crawley
Pope
Lawrence.
They are the best we have in red ball cricket to pick from. Sibley is on thin ice, he can bat time but without really hurting the opposition.
We have loads of discussions on here about the team(all good) but is it time to say these are actually the best we have?
No one wants to hear it and as a fan I hate seeing us collapse, but we may have to swallow it.
There are three or four short forms of the game, only one Championship, we don't like it but that's how it's going.
-
Watching Sibley today was painful. Nearly as painful as our one-dimensional bowling attack.
-
Really Chris? It's not baffling at all when you look at the counties and England pathways and if we stick to the players in and around the red ball squads over the last 5 years... Just look at the batsmen they have picked and continue to favour (Bairstow/Buttler/Curran (although, tbf to Bairstow he kinda did ok ish today and Curran seems to be the man to use against india it seems))..
Jonny would have a nosebleed at that praise.
But actually, you were right the first time - not as much about whether he is good enough, which is only tangential to the issue, but around why him?
To the point he lost the gloves, largely inexplicably, to Buttler, he was doing OK. He'd had a great patch, and a rocky one but overall his figures for a keeper batsman were decent.
By all accounts, he was invited to go away and return as a batsman, which implies that Jos is deemed a nailed on cert more or less forever. Since then, he's been 3, 5, 6, possible opener, back to three etc, all the while in and out of the side. And he has never been asked or pushed to play any red ball cricket - he came here as many did on the back of lots of hit and giggle when pragmatism says England would have been better with him playing two or three FC games and blooding someone else in those largely meaningless ODIs.
But no. So it goes on with England knowing arguably less than before about a guy who has now played 75 tests. I despair both ways at the selection policy, really I do.
-
I have just watched the highlights and I can't believe more hasn't been said about the toss, I think it was an awful decision to bat first, we have ridiculously flaky top order who haven't played any red ball cricket, that pitch has green all over it, the ball was still moving around all day and we aren't playing a spinner so it's not like we can make use of a wearing pitch.
-
From BBC website:
England have had little preparation for this five-Test series. Five members of their top eight - captain Joe Root, Jonny Bairstow, Lawrence, Jos Buttler and Sam Curran - had not played any first-class cricket since at least the New Zealand defeat in June, while Zak Crawley's only County Championship innings lasted six balls.
-
All these issues stem from the top. Giles hasn’t got a clue how to organise men’s cricket. Open the chequebook and bring back Strauss.
-
Surely your issues stem from the fact that white ball cricket has been given far more importance over the last decade. You have to be a very a good player to be able to transition between the formats. There are plenty of players around the world that fit into this category not just English players. KL Rahul was a red ball player now his white ball game has taken over, he has never been the red ball player he once was.
I think we forget how difficult it is to transfer the skills for each format. How many batsman in world cricket excel in all formats? Kohli maybe although his test cricket has not been what it once was. Babar this past couple of years maybe.
-
From BBC website:
England have had little preparation for this five-Test series. Five members of their top eight - captain Joe Root, Jonny Bairstow, Lawrence, Jos Buttler and Sam Curran - had not played any first-class cricket since at least the New Zealand defeat in June, while Zak Crawley's only County Championship innings lasted six balls.
Also from the BBC Sport website... Virat Kohli last played a first class game in 2012.
-
Archer out of this series, the T20 World Cup AND the Ashes.
Sigh.
-
However, I love Jimmy
-
It actually looks like Eng could get a first innings lead here, and a result still possible if we can get even two more days worth of play. Ind own issues in swinging conditions exposed but was as expected. Rahane past his prime, notwithstanding his lone century is Aus (which had 4 or 5 catch drops btw) . Kohli back to 2014 form, in WTC as well as now, he is back nicking ones that could be left. Pujara never succeeded in Eng even during his best years, so don't expect him to now given his shaky form since almost 2 yrs.
Makes me think how far ahead Smith is in longer format as he keeps scoring double centuries in these conditions where no one else can even score a 50.
-
Also from the BBC Sport website... Virat Kohli last played a first class game in 2012.
Erm, he's Virat Kohli?
-
Also, a Test is a first-class match. So, actually, not correct to say he hasn't played one since 2012.
-
Who is ahead, England or India?.
More rain around might not help it swing but could be good for the bowling side
-
India well on top now...
-
Anderson should of had 5 or 6 by now he is bailing out our batsmen once again.
-
Seems like he can't catch himself though
-
Bumrah looked a better bat than Sibley.
-
Bumrah should not of got more than 5. You fear the drops will cost us thou.
We need something from Sibley now, as others have said-there’s not much to hit back with apart from full on the pads or off the hip.
-
For all the criticism of the batting of our batsman, it is their substandard fielding that is the difference between the two sides here.
Sibley, Burns and Crawley are a farily well established top three now for a trio averaging in the 29-32 bracket, but no doubt their lack of ability as fielders is a significant factor in England's slip catching percentage being right at the bottom of the list.
It seems fashionable to blame England's batting failures on white ball cricket, but there is a word of difference in the quality of the fielding of the guys like Stokes and Bairstow who play for England in the limited overs format and the likes of Sibley and Burns who only play red ball cricket for England
-
Agree, if catches were held off Rahul and others, Ind would have folded for less than Eng score.
-
For all the criticism of the batting of our batsman, it is their substandard fielding that is the difference between the two sides here.
Sibley, Burns and Crawley are a farily well established top three now for a trio averaging in the 29-32 bracket, but no doubt their lack of ability as fielders is a significant factor in England's slip catching percentage being right at the bottom of the list.
It seems fashionable to blame England's batting failures on white ball cricket, but there is a word of difference in the quality of the fielding of the guys like Stokes and Bairstow who play for England in the limited overs format and the likes of Sibley and Burns who only play red ball cricket for England
To be fair to Burns I saw a stat that he has taken 93% of slip catches at international level - way above the team average. But he doesn't always field there so perhaps there is a reason for that..
Crawley I believe is an excellent fielder though his slipping seems to be a bit suspect.
There must be a reason that we are worse and I can't believe it is due to raw attributes (hand eye, reflexes etc) as these are international batsmen we are talking about. Something to do with the training perhaps?
Either way given conditions in England and the fact that we generally accept that we will have low scoring games but win them via our bowling expertise - bad slip fielding is a huge flaw in that plan and something that needs addressing.
-
Being a top notch slip fielder is not a given - you have to have decent reactions, steely concentration and soft hands, allied to a hint of anticipation. There are not as many great ones as you would expect, and the presumption that batsmen should be naturals at it is piffle.
-
Anderson is about as good as anyone else to back up that point.
We miss Stokes obviously but we have shelled a few in the first innings.
With no time lost to rain they may have hurt us in this game,maybe still will.
-
Not convinced they always have the best slip fielders in the slips though. Sibley doesn't look like a natural slip fielder for example.
-
This is hopeless
-
I don’t think any of us thought we would pass their score without wickets down.
The pressure Root bats under in this team is off the scale. I don’t know how he consistently does it.
-
Thinking about it, my top ten English slip fielders of the 21st Century doesn't feature that many batsmen - I have Stokes, Flintoff, Ricky Clarke, Ollie Rayner, Mark Alleyne and (because gully is near enough) Wor Collingwood as all rounders alongside Anderson, then Trescothick, Strauss and Lyth.
-
Great shot from Sibley…
Time for a change at the top.
-
It’s not enough runs from him by a long way but I reckon England will keep Bairstow in and make the change at number 3.
Crawley def has the game but the scores just don’t lie.
Hameed could bat 3 if Sibley remains.
-
At least Crawley looks like he has the technique to score runs at a rate of more than 1 every 10 balls. If you could guarantee that Sibley could bat all day and score 100 that would be fine, but he either gets out cheaply, or bats for 100+ balls for barely double figures. Either way he puts too much pressure on those around him to score the runs. Time to put him out to pasture.
-
I do wonder if part of Crawley's current issue is related to batting behind Sibley and Burns.
-
Siraj is a bit of a bellend
-
At least Crawley looks like he has the technique to score runs at a rate of more than 1 every 10 balls. If you could guarantee that Sibley could bat all day and score 100 that would be fine, but he either gets out cheaply, or bats for 100+ balls for barely double figures. Either way he puts too much pressure on those around him to score the runs. Time to put him out to pasture.
Agree with your view, Crawley does look like he has the shots and is proactive putting the bad ball away. His scores over the last year 18 months just don't warrant selection, but neither does Sibley or Lawrence or Pope. They are have talent.
It's a tricky call I think about this slow scoring.Totally get what other think, listening to Vic Marks on commentary it's clear he thinks Sibley does a job for the team most others can't do..so there's another way of looking at it.
Whether it is what the team needs is the difficult issue, Sibley is very limited off the hip or off the legs,not much else.
I guess it depends whether you think there is a role in a five day day for a bit of 'occupying the crease' and wearing out the bowlers.
Root and Bairstow have pushed us on in this game, Burns and Sibley got us to some sort of start, how much is that worth.
But I totally get the opposite viewpoint. I don't think England will drop Sibley myself now, but he is limited in options to score,very limited.
-
Buttler with a gift, sigh. Lost count of the times he's left like that and got out
-
That’s one of Roots best hundreds. He is on a different level than anyone else in the team.
-
Nothing wrong with this pitch and isn't hooping like it was on day one. We've had a few guys get starts which is really frustrating! We might get rescued by the rain if we're lucky.
Root just masterful.
-
So, err, can we defend this?
-
Need one tonight. Trent Bridge is rocking. Could do with one of Broads hot spells
-
Broad has his lucky bandana back on so we could be on here!
-
The problem for England in making a change at the top of the order is that it isn't a case of having one guy at the top of the order who of struggling but all of the top three. Crawley is the one I think it capable of having a successful career at this level and it may be that he is given a break before a other go in the side. With Sibley it is more a case of whether you think what he does is useful to the side. He doesn't look to have the game to make regular big scores at this level but he can bat time. Burns is the one who may not get another chance given his age and already having had 26 tests to show what he can do.
-
I don't know the stats but Burns seems to get the most runs, most consistently. He is doing enough not to get dropped but not enough big scores.
He seems the one most likely to get a score. I don't think Sibley will get dropped by number 3 they will change I reckon.
Hameed in, they will keep Bairstow and then it's a toss up on long term potential of Pope or Lawrence.
Lawrence hasn't had the amount of innings the others have.
Worth appreciating Root for a min, he's up there with Gooch and KP and maybe Cook as the best player of the last 20-30 years.
I think I would put him as the best of the lot in one day and tests. He is just outstanding batting under the pressure of not much coming from anyone else.
Some of the players like Trott and KP and Bell also usually came in after a score from the openers.Root hasn't had that for a good 3 years now.
-
I think Eng has enough to win this game. If rain causes patches of play tomorrow, then it will start swinging heavily again and one session is all Ind needs to fold up against Anderson and co. Only chance Ind have is if it remains bright and sunny all day and forecast clearly isn't showing that.
From cricinfo: "Until this Test the highest target India had chased down in England was 173, which came 50 years ago in the Oval Test. The 208 target achieved by West Indies in 1980 remains the highest by a visiting team at Trent Bridge. England were aiming for something well in excess of 200."
-
Sibley surely cannot hold his spot? How on earth can you pick a batsman who can't/wont score on the off side. I saw him leaving over pitched half volleys throughout his innings.
Definitely a place for guys who can stick around but Sibley has no intent what soever unless its on his legs.
I know you guys don't think Bairstow et al should be given any more chances but surely you match him up against Sibley/Burns and say he's worth another decent go.
-
Sibley surely cannot hold his spot? How on earth can you pick a batsman who can't/wont score on the off side. I saw him leaving over pitched half volleys throughout his innings.
Definitely a place for guys who can stick around but Sibley has no intent what soever unless its on his legs.
I know you guys don't think Bairstow et al should be given any more chances but surely you match him up against Sibley/Burns and say he's worth another decent go.
I think England will make a change in the top 3, Sibley does a job but he's limited, and virtually no pressure is being put back on the bowler. He can stay in and bat time thou which might keep him in the team.
Because we need to make a change, bairstow will stay in I think for experience.
To be fair to him, he batted ok on the tour of India and did OK yesterday. Whatever the result of this game Bairstow and Root did inject some momentum.
Bairstow needs to be 5 or 6, 3 is way too high with his defence.But 3 is too high for Crawley,Lawrence and Pope so he's not alone.
He's been moved around the order a lot and I think some on this forum think he should play, I'm not a fan but let's be fair, England don't have quality so he has to be compared with what we have available.
-
Sibley surely cannot hold his spot? How on earth can you pick a batsman who can't/wont score on the off side. I saw him leaving over pitched half volleys throughout his innings.
Definitely a place for guys who can stick around but Sibley has no intent what soever unless its on his legs.
I know you guys don't think Bairstow et al should be given any more chances but surely you match him up against Sibley/Burns and say he's worth another decent go.
I just think surely Hameed could do a better job than Sibley, he could bat with just as much patience and has more shot options and has far far more longevity.
Crawley is worth sticking with because if he gets a couple of scores before the Ashes I think his game will do well in Oz. Burns has proved to grit it out and come back with runs so stays.
Pope vs Lawrence vs Bairstow is an interesting one (if you consider that Stokes will eventually come back in). 2 young talented players vs an experienced player who has had lots of chances but is capable of memorable innings.
-
When was Bairstow's last memorable test innings?
-
I can't see Bairstow losing his place when he has outscored 4 of England's top 6 in this game and is an outstanding fielder in a batting line up of awful fielders. He wouldn't be my first choice for red ball cricket but he had shown some fight whilst batting and a determination and concentration in the field that others have failed to do.
Looks like we will get away from this test with a draw but it leaves a lot of selection issues to resolve and very little time before Thursday to work them out
-
I think Bairstow is set to bat 5 for the series with Stokes out and a young and misfiring top 3. He does bring experience and has batted better than the others as you say.
If Sibley is dropped,England have 2 problems, 2 and 3. If they just change 3 and bring in Hameed it's less disruption.
I think those who want Bairstow in might say he deserves all series at 5, he's has been up and down if he's not kept that is for sure.
-
Hands up I underestimated Bumrah...chap can bowl a bit.
Anyway going forward we need 4 actual bowlers. If India are picking 4 genuine fast/medium bowlers + a spinner. How the hell are we picking 3 bowlers + a non event like Sam Curran?
Curran is clearly only selected because if we collapse with the bat he might brainlessly slog a few runs. Get him out the side.
Hameed in, Crawley out. Crawley aside from that 267(big fluke) averages 18 in his other 25 innings. Pope in, Lawrence out. Pope isn’t exactly a world beater but Lawrence looks like a rabbit in the headlights. Curran obviously out, either Overton or Leach. We need someone how can actually bowl with the older ball like Thakur did for India.
We are so short on batting that Bairstow’s averaging 20 odd the past 10 tests seems like the saviour...Jesus Christ...
-
The top three issue is tough, because any changes now have limited time to bed in pre Ashes (and the blindingly obvious selection, Malan, is not even in the extended squad). Do they really think Hameed has recovered to that level? Which of the current top three is best adapted to Australian conditions? For me, Crawley is probably that man, with Burns ahead of Big Dom on the basis that he has made runs against them here, and scores in more than a 45 degree arc.
Bairstow, not so much for his scores as for the impression that he has addressed some technical flaws, deserves a final run. The nagging question for me, post Smith is whether he or Foakes will get the gloves off Buttler.
-
When was Bairstow's last memorable test innings?
Clearly a very long time ago, but that is the point, they obviously think he is still capable of doing it again otherwise why pick him!
-
I think ICC should seriously start considering 1 reserve day for every test, not just a WTC final test. Sure there are challenges, but not that cannot be worked out by the will of all involved.
Test cricket missed a great advert today in what would have been a great 5th day irrespective of which side would have won or even drawn.
-
I think ICC should seriously start considering 1 reserve day for every test, not just a WTC final test. Sure there are challenges, but not that cannot be worked out by the will of all involved.
Test cricket missed a great advert today in what would have been a great 5th day irrespective of which side would have won or even drawn.
They won't be able to work out an additional day in the UK it's virtually impossible with the tests crammed in our summer. Another match starts on Thursday at Lords I believe.
It's England with the problems to sort out, Ashwin will play a part in these games you would think.
Our batting is not easy to resolve but it must be tackled.
I've got...presume others are thinking how we line up :)....
Burns
Sibley or Hameed
Hameed/Malan/Crawley(don't think England will pick Malan but it's an option, Crawley might get one more chance)
Root
Bairstow
Pope or Lawrence(think I'm going Pope but not much in it)
Butler.
Another option England might think is recalling Ali and playing him in Currans position, so no place for Leach. That would leave us a bit short on bowling, Ali could bat 6 I suppose leaving out Pope or Lawrence to get another bowler in.
-
Perhaps a neutral (non-English) perspective will help:
1. Stop dissecting each batsman’s technique. This obsession with technique is a typical “English” problem - cricket isn’t played in the coaching manual. All this does is make you run around in circles- Sibley “lacks intent”, but Bairstow has “too much” intent, Butler should “reign himself in”, but not get bowled “leaving straight balls”.. all that matters is results, and to that point…
…2.The current lot are England’s best red ball cricketers. Maybe you could make minor tweaks, but England is pretty much picking its best players. So it is pointless to try and dissect each batsman’s technique- these guys perform at the FC level and are the best you have. Don’t like it? Too bad - you’ll need to wait for longer term changes (re-prioritizing test cricket) to kick in.
3. England needs to stop (if they haven’t already) having a “team plan” for how they bat. It’s either “intent” or “bat long”. Each batsman is different. For example, Sibley should feel totally fine playing like Pujara, whereas bairstow should be allowed to force the pace.
4. Specific to bairstow and Butler, they are both supremely talented. They should just tweak their game plan a SMIDGE, but still aim to attack. If they get out doing so - so be it. They need to be fearless and play their natural game. The only adjustment Bairstow needs to make is mastering AB de villiers “late block”, to survive the balls he’s not attacking.
5. Perhaps this is a good lesson - there are real costs to forcing out quality players prematurely… KP and Ian Bell are better than the current lot even in their “old” age Today.
-
Interesting points especially 1. Never thought of it as a typically English issue.
-
Interesting points especially 1. Never thought of it as a typically English issue.
Of course you need to dissect a batsman's technique if they continually fail. This is not an English only issue.
Doesn't need to be text book by it does need to work. Burns Sibley et al have obviously done well at County level but this is test cricket where every tiny piece of a batsman's game has been analysed and dissected by numerous parties. Test bowlers are accurate and unrelenting so wont bowl to your strengths as often as FC bowlers which is probably why us guys who know very little about Sibley wonder how he gets in your side (Sibley has clearly scored mountains of runs at FC level and bowlers must feed his strengths? I don't know).
-
Right, You'll all disagree but everyone is allowed an opinion (although, some disagree with that)
This England team is not very good and hasn't been for a very very long time. It's had some good knocks (then players are lauded as superstars) and it's had some wins but generally it's a poor team. England 'fans' have to start to be brutally honest about these players, the team, the set up and the fact that quite frankly.. They aren't very good
Sibley - The lad bats time and that's what this side (and test cricket top orders) need. Sure, he's no Cook (who was limited), Strauss or Trott but he is the best option we have currently and doing that role. Could be be better, dam right and should be training/learning to improve.
Burns - lad isn't very good.. lets be honest again.. However, again.. the best we have right now. Can he improve.. yep loads.. will he... probably not so lets just accept he's not great, enjoy the odd good knock for what it is but cast the eye to the next 15-20yr old and start creating a replacement
Crawley - Again, doesn't look unto it sadly but has been given a run. Pretty much the same as Burns .. unless there is someone better, why bother just switching lifeboats.. and no.. Barstow/Buttler/Stokes et all are not hte answer at 3..
Hameed - Would love him to be good enough again... question is... is he.. Only one way to find out but do we want to chop and change now before the Ashes..
Malan - badly treated by England (yet again).. Chances are he won't play a part and due to his age.. is it worth it anyway now?
Root - Englands ONLY test class batsmen. Just leave him batting at 4 or 5 though, don't start pushing him higher as he's not a top order batsmen
Stokes - All rounder. Great purple patch over the last 18-24 months but lets not kid ourselves. (although I'm sure people will wet themselves cause he's the greatest thing since sliced bread)... he should be at 6/7 BUT.. bUT.... England don't have any viable options currently but should be looking for some!!
Pope - looks the business... not scoring the runs.. Lets not make the same mistake and keep backing a dead donkey.. Given him another 10 tests and if he doesn't get that average to an actual test batters average then start to look for alternatives .. Maybe still play him while you find one, but stop bS'ing him up all the time
Buttler/Bairstow - Flogging dead horses. If they can't make it as test batters then kick them out and admit that we've wasted a lot of time on two players who just aren't good enough (although..... it's very impressive that Bairstow appears to have changed technique a bit.. it is too late though, he's had too many chances)
Foakes - for gods sake just put him in the side ... at 6/7 and tell him he's the man for 20 tests at least. see if he can average 40 because his keeping is far above the rest but we need the runs too sadly.
curran - for gods sake.. you guys seem to want to have his babies because he is a god $%^& (sorry, 'aggressive' and 'competitive')... biffs a few runs... he's there as a bowler.. and isn't good enough... admit he's just a modern bits and pieces player for white ball and kick him into touch.. laughable that he's in a test side.
Anderson/Broad - aging but still sadly the best we have.
Archer - They broke him.. He will be a 2020 merchant now.. maybe a few more odd games but accept he's not interested, his body can't take it and let him go earn his fortune as a mercenary
Robinson - fair play lad... looks tasty.. give him a run (shame about his stinking attitude though but hey ho)
Wood - not a 'good' bowler but sharp and we need some pace so he's in
leech - massively badly treated by England
We don't need 'team plans'.. just let each player play their game BUT expect them to adapt to each game situation. If they can't adapt to a game situation then they have no business playing red ball, let alone test cricket.. One dimensional players are to be left in white ball
I don't care if England aren't very good, I don't overly care if they lose.. just stop BS'ing them or the players up as something they aren't as we have from 2015 onwards.. accept it's a poor crop, admit it and then try and change it.. don't keep spouting the ECB line that they are some kind of 'world class' or when they happen to have a good day start saying 'look how good <insert player> is.. nailed on number x'... every dog has his day after all.. Bairstow has proven that with some timely knocks to keep saving his test skin.
Well played India but they aren't that hot either.. Enlgand only need to dig in and they can turn them over. Again, peopel over rate this India side due to the hype surrounding them
-
@ProCricketer1982 I think I agree with absolutely everything you have written there.
Spot on Sir :)
-
Probably agree with a chunk of the above, but where I would take issue is on technique.
If you look at how technically able the batsmen are in the Kiwi and Indian sides and then you look at burns and Sibley... I would argue that for too long we have seen coaches not being comfortable working on a bats man's technique. This needs to change in my view. Burns and Sibley are massively limited by their technique.
-
Have to agree with that assessment @Buzz
Look at the difference technical coaching made to Labuschagne when he went to Glamorgan. I'm not saying that there's no value in the likes of Trescothick but surely England could bring in a batting coach with a history of improving and refining player's techniques at the highest level, even as a consultant rather than as a full time appointment.
-
Have to agree with that assessment @Buzz
Look at the difference technical coaching made to Labuschagne when he went to Glamorgan. I'm not saying that there's no value in the likes of Trescothick but surely England could bring in a batting coach with a history of improving and refining player's techniques at the highest level, even as a consultant rather than as a full time appointment.
This is the role of the counties to be honest, players with poor techniques shouldn't make it to the England side.
-
This is the role of the counties to be honest, players with poor techniques shouldn't make it to the England side.
or county sides ! No place for the likes of Duckett in any top 5 in red ball full stop for example
-
This is the role of the counties to be honest, players with poor techniques shouldn't make it to the England side.
But if they're scoring buckets of runs at county level (Sibley, Burns, Pope, Lawrence) why would their county risk changing things? If things are only an issue at international level then I'd suggest it would be in the interest of the England setup to have someone working with them on the necessary technical adaptations, rather than relying on the county coaches to fix something that, for them, isn't a problem.
-
But if they're scoring buckets of runs at county level (Sibley, Burns, Pope, Lawrence) why would their county risk changing things? If things are only an issue at international level then I'd suggest it would be in the interest of the England setup to have someone working with them on the necessary technical adaptations, rather than relying on the county coaches to fix something that, for them, isn't a problem.
It's only 'not a problem' at county level because the level is poorer. It's like at amateur level, you see players who you know will be undone if they come across a wicket that isn't a road but because they play on roads most games, get away with their technique etc.. Just because they are scoring runs, doesn't mean they are good.. How many games have you seen when one side plays their games on a road, only to rock up once or twice a year on a non road and be utterly shown up.. yet, because they play mostly on roads... people just ignore the fact they can't bat etc..
same at county level ... just these players in theory are better
-
But if they're scoring buckets of runs at county level (Sibley, Burns, Pope, Lawrence) why would their county risk changing things? If things are only an issue at international level then I'd suggest it would be in the interest of the England setup to have someone working with them on the necessary technical adaptations, rather than relying on the county coaches to fix something that, for them, isn't a problem.
Ask Marnus or Mark Butcher.
Because you want to get better and succeed.
Laurence and Pope both have good technique (ignoring this standing on off stump nonsense) so for them it is mental.
I actually thought Bairstow looked much better in the last test too, I suspect he will get another run at it now.
Realistically Pope and Laurence are fighting for one spot, unless one of them bats 3...
-
Interesting stuff being discussed in the last few posts, I don't disagree, there's got to be loads of us on here at club level looking to improve technique because we have to fall back on it when it's hard to score runs in our matches. I've spent a lot of time myself trying to get better(I'm 54) and it's always something to be worked on-the basics of batting.
I have seen Burns in interview say he does not care about comments or advise on his technique and Sibley pretty much the same.Both have unusual batting styles and of the two no ones arguing Sibley is off the hip or off the legs and nothing else seems natural to him.
Burns specifically said in interview he will be judged on runs alone and he will do it his way. In other words runs keep him in the team whether his technique is unusual or not. So he does it his way.
If you look at Crawley and Pope, both look to me to have an all round game and conventional technique, set up to do well, but neither really has(yet)
-
Also watch out for a call up for Moeen coming your way...
Very likely he could come into the team for Sam.
Silverwood has just given an interview when he implied that Hammed and Pope could come in and Moeen is under consideration. Also that Bairstow looked as good as he has in a long time....
-
Bairstow did do,well over two innings, credit where it's due.
He also gave us some momentum when we needed it.
-
Also watch out for a call up for Moeen coming your way...
Very likely he could come into the team for Sam.
Silverwood has just given an interview when he implied that Hammed and Pope could come in and Moeen is under consideration. Also that Bairstow looked as good as he has in a long time....
Bairstow did look like he's actually tried to get better. Kudos for that to the lad. Shame he didn't do it about 3-4 years ago mind!
oh no.. not moeen again.. Love the lad as he seems such a nice bloke but again.. what's leech done wrong to not get a year or so in the side?? .. in fact, what's moeen done in red ball to deserve yet another shot??
-
One good innings and Bairstow goes from public enemy no.1 to almost a hero...lol...I guess it has more to do with limited options.
The Indian team seems to be pretty sorted at the moment, not expecting to see any changes. Ashwin will have to sit out as Jaddu's contribution with the bat are invaluable. I guess Rahane and Pujara will get an extended run to get some runs. I dont really see Shaw or Sky getting a match in this series unless there are injuries.
-
One good innings and Bairstow goes from public enemy no.1 to almost a hero...lol...
The same as all England players.. One knock and they are legends.. 'world class' again.. few white ball runs and they get into the test side.
He doesn't deserve to be there.. simple as that.. HOWEVER, IF.. IF.. you forget everything and go off the last game... it was at least a positive...
-
This fourum over all is pretty balanced, their are Bairstow and Yorkshire fans who think he should be in,some of us think he has had enough chances.
Either way, if he's batted ok let's say he has batted ok-which he did.He can only be compared with other guys who are in the team and the 30 other batsmen we have tried in the last 3 years.
Most of us England fans know, we are looking at,with the huge exception of Root, the worst batting line up in living memory.
-
Interested to hear comments praising Lawrence's technique and criticising Burns'. I have it the other way round, with Lawrence getting his hands in all the wrong spots, making it very loose, whereas with Burns I think the quirky stuff actually happens before the bowler reaches the crease (though he possesses limited scoring options).
Issue is not as much with the quality of the county game as its fundamental otherness from test cricket. There remains a preponderance of seamers who peak at or below 80mph but use "a bit of nip" which allows them to pick up wickets but not test reactions in the same way a Test attack might. Excluding the hypothetical Sussex one day attack for a moment, Lancashire probably have the quickest attack in the FC game right now, with Anderson, Mahmood and Luke Wood around 85 and Bailey, Lamb and a couple of others over 80. That's still a bit gap from Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc and Pattinson all over 90, which denies players the right to live on their reflexes.
-
I can't deal with us messing Moeen around again. Sigh.
-
Speaking of technique, this might be controversial but it seems like Zak Crowley has the worst technique (for the conditions). Or perhaps not technique, gameplan might be the better word. But he’s way too loose.. if all you want is to see some gorgeous cover drives, just bring Vince back.
-
I can't deal with us messing Moeen around again. Sigh.
Have to say he's been treated appallingly by England, I'm surprised he still wants to play five day cricket.
He's a selfless individual but if your reading Silverwoods interview they do want him in to cover the problem area of batting.
He's batted 8 before so it cold be a straight swap for Curran
-
Mo surely can’t be brought it as part of a 5 man attack. If it’s him for a batsman then it could work (though the batting certainly doesn’t need weakening). But if you get a flat wicket and a warm spell, I’d have to be Root leading that attack if the Indians get after Mo. Especially with them only having one leftie.
-
Most of us England fans know, we are looking at,with the huge exception of Root, the worst batting line up in living memory.
The line ups from the 90s were far worse than the ones we are putting out at the moment. Ramprakash played 62 tests at an average of 27. The constant churn of batsmen getting a couple of tests after a good run of domestic form then getting ditched if they didn't make a big score have thankfully gone.
This may not be a great side, but it is a barely 20 years ago that we sat bottom if the test rankings.
-
It seems odd to me that you have a guy like Kholi who has reached the top in all formats of international cricket who is fairly open about the work he does to improve his game and address technical issues and a guy like Rory Burns who seems happy to crack on the same way as he has been doing seemingly leaning nothing. It reminds me of Monty Panesar and his lack of capacity to learn and develop.
There is a world of difference between those guys who look unorthodox or ugly, but have the fundamentals in place, and those who don't.
I
-
Have to say he's been treated appallingly by England, I'm surprised he still wants to play five day cricket.
He's a selfless individual but if your reading Silverwoods interview they do want him in to cover the problem area of batting.
He's batted 8 before so it cold be a straight swap for Curran
You have to wonder how that phone call goes between Silverwood and Mo .. 😆
If Mo comes in I don't think you have a choice it'd him for Curran to get a spinner into the spinner and not weaken the batting - otherwise you would play Leech surely.
-
Mo has been selected... I have no idea where that leaves Dom Bess and Leach.
-
Mo has been selected...
Big question is does he come in for Curran or Lawrence/Bairstow? Hard to quibble with having Moeen around when Stokes/Woakes are unavailable, but if I was Jack Leach I'd be going ballistic around now.
-
It seems England will pick Leach when we have a bowling allrounder in the team(Stokes/Woakes). You would doubt we will play two spinners at Lords so Leach misses out again.
The Guardian today has Hameed and Mo in the side for Thursday. With potentially Buttler batting 6, presume Mo 7.
-
And I thought we were a mess when Ed Smith was in charge...
-
Jeez, they have really messed about poor Leach and Bess if Mo is shoehorned in.
-
Good to see Moeen back. Hopefully his all round ability means we can pick a proper fourth seamer such as Wood.
Leach will be gutted but he’s in the same situation as Ashwin. Without a seam bowling all rounder both those two looking to be warming the bench.
-
Good to see Moeen back. Hopefully his all round ability means we can pick a proper fourth seamer such as Wood.
Leach will be gutted but he’s in the same situation as Ashwin. Without a seam bowling all rounder both those two looking to be warming the bench.
All round ability... remind me when was the last time he actually produced anything CONSISTENTLY with the bat for the England TEST team (white ball biffing simply doesn't count)
-
Got to feel a bit for Leach, changed his action, had his illness concerns, yet only seems to get a game here and there. Has never really been a decent run in the team. Maybe he should learn to bat a bit, seems to count for more than bowling ability
-
All round ability... remind me when was the last time he actually produced anything CONSISTENTLY with the bat for the England TEST team (white ball biffing simply doesn't count)
Playing Moeen gives the option of playing 4 genuine seam/fast bowlers eg the winning strategy.
Moeen might not be the batsman he once was but he’s probably still able to swing madly like Curran
-
Playing Moeen gives the option of playing 4 genuine seam/fast bowlers eg the winning strategy.
Moeen might not be the batsman he once was but he’s probably still able to swing madly like Curran
oh, I defo wouldn't pick Curran anyway personally.. offers nothing
-
Mo could consider himself a bit unlucky not to have been in the original squad considering he took 8 wickets in his last test and, in thr absence of Stokes and Woakes, addresses the problem of trying to get 5 bowlers into a side when the batting is suspect.
I would prefer to see him replace Lawrence, slot him in at 7 with Butler moving up to 6 and Curram keeping his place at 8.
-
I just dont understand how Leach and Bess convince themselves that they are good enough to play at test level when such things happen. It must be so tough to stay motivated.
-
India dropped the mighty ASHWIN to get better balance in their batting - dropping leach doesn’t seem so drastic..
-
India dropped the mighty ASHWIN to get better balance in their batting - dropping leach doesn’t seem so drastic..
But its not just this one instance, is it? He constantly gets picked up in the squad and more often than not sits on the sidelines...and then the board brings in another spinner and he gets picked ahead of Leach. Clearly in terms of spin options, Moeen is the alpha. Surely it must not be easy being in that situation.
-
India dropped the mighty ASHWIN to get better balance in their batting - dropping leach doesn’t seem so drastic..
I did think this. Ashwin is a man with over 400 test wickets as well as averaging a pretty healthy 27 with the bad including 5 hundreds.
Something has gone drastically wrong with our price preparation if we are playing on decks where we are relying on Jack Leach to out bowl Ashwin in the second innings of the game
-
India dropped the mighty ASHWIN to get better balance in their batting - dropping leach doesn’t seem so drastic..
India dropped Ashwin but his replacement Jadeja isn’t too much off a downgrade is he?
-
I can't help but feel that Jack Leach is a victim of his time. If our top 7 (less Root) were firing properly and making stacks of runs he'd probably be in the side. As it is he makes the tail too long, less from his own actions but more of others'.
-
But its not just this one instance, is it? He constantly gets picked up in the squad and more often than not sits on the sidelines...and then the board brings in another spinner and he gets picked ahead of Leach. Clearly in terms of spin options, Moeen is the alpha. Surely it must not be easy being in that situation.
Moreover, the selectors chose to bring in a spinner from outside the squad to address the balance, rather than to back him as their spinner and call up an all rounder who can bowl some seam for the balance.
-
Seems as if Sibley, Crawley and Lawrence could all get the chop, for Hameed, Pope and Moeen.
Team being mooted is below (don't shoot the messenger)
Burns
Hameed
YJB
Rooooooot
Pope
Buttler
Mo
Curran
Robinson
Broad
Anderson
Seems a little harsh on Sibley, no one knows about Pope's form. Mo hasn't seen a red ball for a while either (but when has that ever been an impediment to selection) and YJB needs to be at 5 not three (like most of the Eng batsmen at the moment).
-
I can't help but feel that Jack Leach is a victim of his time. If our top 7 (less Root) were firing properly and making stacks of runs he'd probably be in the side. As it is he makes the tail too long, less from his own actions but more of others'.
Exactly, looks like we need a bowling allrounder to play(seamer) for Leach to get picked in most conditions apart from India or Sri Lanka.
If we batted and got 400 most of the time you need spin at the back end of the game even in the UK. But the fact is we don't, our batting is weak and the selectors are doing everything and anything to prop it up.
In some ways I feel for those picking the team, invest in potential or revert back to players tried before-not easy.
I don't know when the next Championship game is but England should release Leach from the squad for this series to let him get some cricket in. I'm less convinced about Bess, he's a better bat than Leach but nowhere near as good a spinner.
You could make the same argument about Foakes, when fit, how anyone sees his batting as weakening the side is a mystery to me.
-
Broad is likely going to miss this game...
Going for a scan on his calf/ankle. Means we might see a bit of Mark Wood. Which isn't a bad thing.
-
Seems as if Sibley, Crawley and Lawrence could all get the chop, for Hameed, Pope and Moeen.
Team being mooted is below (don't shoot the messenger)
Burns
Hameed
YJB
Rooooooot
Pope
Buttler
Mo
Curran
Robinson
Broad
Anderson
Seems a little harsh on Sibley, no one knows about Pope's form. Mo hasn't seen a red ball for a while either (but when has that ever been an impediment to selection) and YJB needs to be at 5 not three (like most of the Eng batsmen at the moment).
Oh god... Bairstow ....
-
Not sure why Moeen gets so much hate. Yes, he leaks run, but he’s a wicket taker. The below from espncricinfo:
“To date in Test cricket he has claimed 189 wickets at 36.24 in 61 matches, at a sub-60 strike rate that is better than each of the more celebrated spinners above him in England's wicket-takers' list - Derek Underwood, Graeme Swann and Jim Laker.
Meanwhile his record on home soil against India is particularly impressive. He has taken 31 wickets at 22.22 across seven previous matches in 2014 and 2018, including a Player-of-the-Match-winning nine-wicket haul at the Ageas Bowl following his mid-series recall in 2018.“
Best strike rate… and he can bat a bit. Clear winner over Leach.
-
Seems as if Sibley, Crawley and Lawrence could all get the chop, for Hameed, Pope and Moeen.
Team being mooted is below (don't shoot the messenger)
Burns
Hameed
YJB
Rooooooot
Pope
Buttler
Mo
Curran
Robinson
Broad
Anderson
Seems a little harsh on Sibley, no one knows about Pope's form. Mo hasn't seen a red ball for a while either (but when has that ever been an impediment to selection) and YJB needs to be at 5 not three (like most of the Eng batsmen at the moment).
What is the point of moving Bairstow to 3. We'll never get over the in/out nature of his recent career if he keeps getting treated like that.
-
I can’t add much more than what’s already been said other than England’s selection policy is just as crazy now as it was under the old regime.
If these are to be believed than we are dropping the young players just before an ashes series when they have been in the spot for the last 18 months for two guys who in Mo and JYB have not produced either and no doubt will get dropped again as they have been tried and tested and either won’t or can’t change the flaws in there game.
Well I guess let’s wait and see what side is picked but 7 is to high for Butler, And with him at 7 mo 8 curren 9 and broad who is now next to useless at 10 that’s a very long tale behind with exception of Root a top 5 that’s just in termoil
-
Appreciate I'm in a bit of a minority but I don't see England leaving out Sibley. If Bairstow plays(he is) it's got to be 5 or 6.
He's doesn't have it to bat high up.
If England drop Sibley and Crawley we need a 2 and 3, just Crawley and Hameed could bat 3,Root,Pope,Bairstow, Ali or Butler.
Unless they really do think Crawley will come good and let Sibley go. Should Crawley fail again at Lords what then?
I like Crawley and he may come good in the long run but, he's averaging 18 since the 267 knock.
-
I can’t add much more than what’s already been said other than England’s selection policy is just as crazy now as it was under the old regime.
If these are to be believed than we are dropping the young players just before an ashes series when they have been in the spot for the last 18 months for two guys who in Mo and JYB have not produced either and no doubt will get dropped again as they have been tried and tested and either won’t or can’t change the flaws in there game.
Well I guess let’s wait and see what side is picked but 7 is to high for Butler, And with him at 7 mo 8 curren 9 and broad who is now next to useless at 10 that’s a very long tale behind with exception of Root a top 5 that’s just in termoil
Buttler 7, Mo 8, Curran 9 a long tail? Even all a place higher and Robinson at 9 and that’s still not a bad ‘tail’ it’s what’s above it that’s a issue.
-
I saw a valid point earlier that two years into Silverwood's talk of reinventing our batting that we are going to have a Bayliss-esque middle order of Bairstow, Buttler, Moeen and Curran
Ah
-
Broad is likely going to miss this game...
Going for a scan on his calf/ankle. Means we might see a bit of Mark Wood. Which isn't a bad thing.
@Buzz maybe I'm missing something but what is so great about Wood in Test matches? Sure he can certainly bowl fast but are we really celebrating a test match bowling average of 33?
-
Buttler 7, Mo 8, Curran 9 a long tail? Even all a place higher and Robinson at 9 and that’s still not a bad ‘tail’ it’s what’s above it that’s a issue.
Given recent form yes that’s a long tail. Butler avg 33 which is passable I guess. Mo 28 which is built largely on what he did when he first given his chance. Just checked and avg 19 and 10 in test cricket in 2018 and 2019 which was last years he played before a single test so far in 2021.
Curran is ok but is as likely to score 0 as he is to get a few quick runs and then Broad who is no better than a village batter these days unfortunately and Jimmy so yea pretty long tail to me given what we have been used to in our heyday
-
I saw a valid point earlier that two years into Silverwood's talk of reinventing our batting that we are going to have a Bayliss-esque middle order of Bairstow, Buttler, Moeen and Curran
Ah
Good spot.. that's actually amusing.
God England is a dire dire dire team.
The question is... should one of them other than Root get some runs etc over the next 12 months.. Will we suddenly be reading about how great that player is (or the team).. How they should always be in the side (thinking a Bairstow ton here for example, or a Curran India esq performance).....
or will people go 'fair one, got some runs but we know it's just a flash in the pan'
-
Both teams docked 2 WTC points as well as 40% match fee fine in relation to slow over rates.
Wonder if the penny will finally drop.
-
Shardul Thakur out for the Indians with a muscle injury.
Ashwin vs Ishant look like they are competing for that spot.
-
Shardul Thakur out for the Indians with a muscle injury.
Ashwin vs Ishant look like they are competing for that spot.
Shardul would be a big loss! He is the only one who has the ability to shape the ball away from the right handers in this bowling line up. He has added the necessary variety in the attack. Such a shame!
-
Being reported that James Anderson is now also a doubt for Lords...ffs
-
Being reported that James Anderson is now also a doubt for Lords...ffs
He's old now.. bound to pick up injuries sadly. It'll happen more and more
-
Thought it was Broad who's struggling, Mahmood called up to warm the bench and keep the squad huuuuge. At least Bess has been allowed to leave to play some hactual cricket.
-
Is Overton fit? Why is he in the squad if he isn't likely to play.
-
Is Overton fit? Why is he in the squad if he isn't likely to play.
He should play if Anderson and Broad are both out, leaving Mahmood warming the bench. Although players being called in as 'cover' and going straight in the team is hardly unusal with England!
-
Good spot.. that's actually amusing.
God England is a dire dire dire team.
I think the team (and the squad) are doing the best they can. I'm sure being pro sportsmen, they're not going out on the pitch not giving a toss. They will want to win. They're also playing arguably the no.1 or no. 2 team in the world, with a great bowling attack - and scarily, that's excluding their spinners.
However, I agree England are dire. I think mostly because the ECB are clueless cnuts and have put red ball cricket (and therefore mainly the 'bat time' skill - which is not the same as bat for long periods without scoring, Mr Sibley) as low on the priority list as possible through their belittling of the County Championship. Partly because Ed Smith, Chris Silverwood, James Taylor et al were/are not very good selectors (getting as bad as the 90s I'd say). And partly because for the players, pressure/confidence is a virtuous but also vicious circle.
The solution? Sack the appropriate ECB morons who have let this happen. Replace them with a crew from CBF. Wait 5 years.
Although I should also add that Sam Curran, for all of his battling qualities, belongs nowhere near the test side.
-
I think the team (and the squad) are doing the best they can. I'm sure being pro sportsmen, they're not going out on the pitch not giving a toss. They will want to win. They're also playing arguably the no.1 or no. 2 team in the world, with a great bowling attack - and scarily, that's excluding their spinners.
However, I agree England are dire. I think mostly because the ECB are clueless cnuts and have put red ball cricket (and therefore mainly the 'bat time' skill - which is not the same as bat for long periods without scoring, Mr Sibley) as low on the priority list as possible through their belittling of the County Championship. Partly because Ed Smith, Chris Silverwood, James Taylor et al were/are not very good selectors (getting as bad as the 90s I'd say). And partly because for the players, pressure/confidence is a virtuous but also vicious circle.
The solution? Sack the appropriate ECB morons who have let this happen. Replace them with a crew from CBF. Wait 5 years.
Although I should also add that Sam Curran, for all of his battling qualities, belongs nowhere near the test side.
Awesome to the point post. 😀. I've sacked myself from the CBF selection committee before anyone else does it. I've still got Sibley in.
P45 in the post.
-
All this talk of giving white ball cricket priority over red ball cricket always confuses me. What was done by the board in the past which has stopped now? Has anything changed at the grass roots level? This seems like an easy excuse to me. If I compare this to India, its not like BCCI has done anything extra for red ball cricket back in India, and yet India now has a world class team. On the contrary, BCCI is always blamed for giving priority to white ball/T20 cricket.
For me, I think this has to do with the falling standard of players in county cricket. Gone are the days when top overseas players used to rub shoulders with the county players. That is not something the board can control, can they?
-
All this talk of giving white ball cricket priority over red ball cricket always confuses me. What was done by the board in the past which has stopped now? Has anything changed at the grass roots level? This seems like an easy excuse to me. If I compare this to India, its not like BCCI has done anything extra for red ball cricket back in India, and yet India now has a world class team. On the contrary, BCCI is always blamed for giving priority to white ball/T20 cricket.
For me, I think this has to do with the falling standard of players in county cricket. Gone are the days when top overseas players used to rub shoulders with the county players. That is not something the board can control, can they?
Allowing centrally contracted players to go to the IPL is one. Scheduling few FC matches during the height of summer is another.
Happy to be corrected on either.
-
Broad now out for the series. Ah
-
we might be seeing the lack of FC games for the bowlers in particular now causing these injuries. I'm sure Anderson has said ideal preparation is bowling in a match not nets.
Interesting to see if we risk Wood in this match, no warm up games and then being asked to get it down quicker than anyone else can.
-
I wonder why players get injured more often these days compared to olden days. Sure, higher number of games played could be a factor but is it the only or main factor? Is the type of training also a factor? Cricketers these days train a lot on strength/weights which the previous generations didn't do. I wonder if being more injury prone is a drawback of all that strength and weight training? Maybe cricket needs a higher balance towards flexibility to go with the strength training? Interesting to see if there have been any studies or articles on this..
-
Trueman wouldn't have injured his calf doing hurdles for sure.
Mainly because he would have said that there aren't any hurdles on a cricket pitch.
Different bowlers benefit from different preparation.
Andy Caddick needed lots of overs, I would suggest Broad is the same.
All the England bowlers were undercooked in the last test apart from Robinson, but he has a few years on Broad and Jimmy.
Curran I think needs more overs too.
But this is the ECB's fault for not scheduling red ball games during the test summer and having virtually no red ball games in July and August at all. That is absolutely criminal.
-
All this talk of giving white ball cricket priority over red ball cricket always confuses me. What was done by the board in the past which has stopped now? Has anything changed at the grass roots level? This seems like an easy excuse to me. If I compare this to India, its not like BCCI has done anything extra for red ball cricket back in India, and yet India now has a world class team. On the contrary, BCCI is always blamed for giving priority to white ball/T20 cricket.
For me, I think this has to do with the falling standard of players in county cricket. Gone are the days when top overseas players used to rub shoulders with the county players. That is not something the board can control, can they?
So many things have changed from grass roots to pro game
If you look at the amateur leagues back say from 1990-2000 which produced the 2005-2013 team (and arguably the biggest growth cricket has known).. just look around your local area.. what format did the players play from top to bottom? what skill sets did it promote/DIFFERENT skill sets etc etc
then go to the pro game. What has changed there.. when did they play the FC games? when did they play the other formats... what's changed...
priorities.. there was never the money in white ball say in 2005.. now there is more money to be made by being a 2020 mercenary than there is by focusing your skills on red ball for example.. Counties have produced white ball players who they then shoe horn into red ball teams etc.. bowlers need variations and to be able to bat now (well, smack a ball anyway) rather than accuracy AND movement/pace.. again.. where are the nagging bowlers now a days? the guys who run in, land it in the right spot ball after ball AND are either 90 ish or move the ball... not many around... more bits and pieces bowlers around now who bowl an array of balls but can't actually land them in the right place ball after ball after ball
there are many many other reasons I'm sure many on here could point to
-
I wonder why players get injured more often these days compared to olden days. Sure, higher number of games played could be a factor but is it the only or main factor? Is the type of training also a factor? Cricketers these days train a lot on strength/weights which the previous generations didn't do. I wonder if being more injury prone is a drawback of all that strength and weight training? Maybe cricket needs a higher balance towards flexibility to go with the strength training? Interesting to see if there have been any studies or articles on this..
Well....there can be all the studies in the world going on but the more established traditional view(I'm not a bowler but I believe this 100 per cent)
There's being fit
There's being match fit.
The second is, as Buzz says, overs in the legs, training for bowling and getting your body used to bowling again the next day.
Modern day training,diets,conditioning and recovery is very much different from back in the 70 s or 80's.
Our two most successful bowlers in recent times, Broad and Anderson, need those overs and workload.i suspect but don't know, Ollie Robinson is the same.
As @Buzz mentions again in his post, we know one day cricket is the cash cow,but with no FC games in the best part of the summer, are the players being asked to do a job with one hand tied behind their backs?
-
I wonder why players get injured more often these days compared to olden days. Sure, higher number of games played could be a factor but is it the only or main factor? Is the type of training also a factor? Cricketers these days train a lot on strength/weights which the previous generations didn't do. I wonder if being more injury prone is a drawback of all that strength and weight training? Maybe cricket needs a higher balance towards flexibility to go with the strength training? Interesting to see if there have been any studies or articles on this..
On the contrary, no fast bowler back in the day could ever dream of playing 150+ Test matches. So yes, broad is injured, but he has 150 tests on the odometer. I would say the current way of managing nutrition and fitness has been a huge success - especially for Broad and Anderson. Compare Anderson at this age… to Botham. Not even close.
-
On the contrary, no fast bowler back in the day could ever dream of playing 150+ Test matches. So yes, broad is injured, but he has 150 tests on the odometer. I would say the current way of managing nutrition and fitness has been a huge success - especially for Broad and Anderson. Compare Anderson at this age… to Botham. Not even close.
I wasn't even looking at Broad and Anderson. Given their builds and considering the time when they started playing, they seem more of old school compared to new guys who seem very muscular. Also maybe kind of explains their longevity? I am talking about the general injuries that we keep seeing in new guys coming through. See for example Gill or Thakur in this tour or the number of injuries Ind had after/before each test in Aus tour even among the less workload folks. Nowadays it is almost certain to hear someone having a niggle/tightness etc., that will keep them out for few games. I don't remember seeing these kind of frequent injuries going back even just 5-10 years. Gill and Thakur for example don't have the too many games issue for example. So definitely somethings have changed apart from the number of games that could be contributing to the increasing injuries.
-
Which of the new guys do you think seem particularly muscular? Archer, Robinson and Stone aren't as far as I can see. Nor are Woakes, SCurran, Mahmood.
-
Which of the new guys do you think seem particularly muscular? Archer, Robinson and Stone aren't as far as I can see. Nor are Woakes, SCurran, Mahmood.
Well, not in the beefy sense. But just modern sports seem to focus lot more on weights and strength (not just bowlers, but batsmen as well, wasn't hinting Gill/Thakur are muscular looking either :D )
Also, wasn't saying this is cause of the issue but just wondering if this could be related in any way, I believe reading something along those lines before but can't remember where it was.
-
Well, not in the beefy sense. But just modern sports seem to focus lot more on weights and strength (not just bowlers, but batsmen as well, wasn't hinting Gill/Thakur are muscular looking either :D )
Also, wasn't saying this is cause of the issue but just wondering if this could be related in any way, I believe reading something along those lines before but can't remember where it was.
I think you have lost some of us in the point you are trying to make, bowlers modern day or way back havnt been particularly 'muscular' . They all work on strength and core strength more so today, most of them do weights but I think it's only part of their training.
The only bowler which springs to mind for England who had a lot of muscle mass was Chris Tremlett.
I've seen him up close and he is the the biggest human I've ever seen. I believe he now runs a body building company and is a body builder himself.
He was,when I saw him for England,absolutely massive in height and width. Not someone to have an argument with.
:)
-
Ok, my bad, I think confusion is from muscular word I used earlier, maybe not the right word to describe what I was trying to say. Just meant if training difference with focus on weights has any difference to injury frequency. Looks like from the responses here, people don't think that is the case, we can leave it at that :)
-
Suspect back in the day that a fast bowler with a calf niggle would have just bandaged it up and cracked on, rather than having a scan and a few games off. Better miss a couple of games than retire wrecked after 30 tests.
-
Yeah, given the lack of central contracts (and money in general if you go back far enough) I imagine a lot of them played plenty of games when they were well off full fitness.
-
Not just about shortening the career as well, think there is now a focus on not ruining players' bodies for the rest of their lives so they're all crocked by 50.
-
I wonder how England will line up today - I suspect:
Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
YJB
Pope
Butler
Mo
Robinson
Wood
Anderson (if fit)
I would prefer to see:
Burns
Sibley
Hameed
Root
YJB
Butler
Mo
Robinson
Overton
Wood
Mahmood
-
ECB has just confirmed that Pope is being released back to Surrey
-
I would go in with
Burns
Hameed
Crawley
Root
Bairstow
Butler
Ali
Curran
Robinson
Wood
Anderson/ Mahmood
-
If Pope has been released that could mean another chance for Crawley to come good with better batting conditions at Lords.
Sibley may indeed be left out for Hameed to get in.
-
I'm a Surrey member, but it can't be right that Pope is suddenly available to play in the Royal London.
-
Not sure on the bowling, but the batting will be
Burns
Sibley
Hameed (Crawley dropped)
Rooot
Bairstow
Buttler
Moeen (Lawrence also dropped but retained in the squad for concussion cover)
Bowling tbc
-
Suspect back in the day that a fast bowler with a calf niggle would have just bandaged it up and cracked on, rather than having a scan and a few games off. Better miss a couple of games than retire wrecked after 30 tests.
I can't recall anyone ever retiring with calf trouble.
-
Hameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed
-
Off before they bowl a ball, sake...
-
I can’t add much more than what’s already been said other than England’s selection policy is just as crazy now as it was under the old regime.
If these are to be believed than we are dropping the young players just before an ashes series when they have been in the spot for the last 18 months for two guys who in Mo and JYB have not produced either and no doubt will get dropped again as they have been tried and tested and either won’t or can’t change the flaws in there game.
Well I guess let’s wait and see what side is picked but 7 is to high for Butler, And with him at 7 mo 8 curren 9 and broad who is now next to useless at 10 that’s a very long tale behind with exception of Root a top 5 that’s just in termoil
Keen to hear your thoughts on Bumrah (average 3.5) at 8 if Mo is too weak 😁
That’s some tail, if we can get the batters out!
-
Very pleased to see Mo back, especially if he can bring his Hundred form.
Less pleased to see Crawley dropped for Hameed. I’m happy to see Hameed get another go, but it should have been at the expense of one of Sibley or Burns. With the top three England have chosen England will be lucky to score at more than 1.5 per over.
-
Very pleased to see Mo back, especially if he can bring his Hundred form.
Less pleased to see Crawley dropped for Hameed. I’m happy to see Hameed get another go, but it should have been at the expense of one of Sibley or Burns. With the top three England have chosen England will be lucky to score at more than 1.5 per over.
Here we go ‘in for his 100 form’ lol lol lol lol
-
Very pleased to see Mo back, especially if he can bring his Hundred form.
Less pleased to see Crawley dropped for Hameed. I’m happy to see Hameed get another go, but it should have been at the expense of one of Sibley or Burns. With the top three England have chosen England will be lucky to score at more than 1.5 per over.
Hameed is not long off an 80odd ball century in a List A game. He's definitely added a bit more intent than he had on debut.
-
England might also have an eye on the future, Hameed has always opened and Bairstow is back in the middle order.
There is Pope and Crawley who you might think will be back in an around the squad, and Lawrence.
I don't see us disregarding those players, a lot of time has been invested. Crawley and Pope look to have the allround game to return.
So I think Sibley, who gets in my team, might be on borrowed time.
There is of course Stokes to fit back in when he comes back.
-
Curran singlehandedly killing off any pressure created
-
Atherton laying into Harrison here, it's beautiful. Twist the knife...
-
Suspect back in the day that a fast bowler with a calf niggle would have just bandaged it up and cracked on, rather than having a scan and a few games off. Better miss a couple of games than retire wrecked after 30 tests.
I may be off the mark somewhat but is the greater emphasis on fielding also a contributing factor to bowler fitness. In the 20th Century a bowler would do his spell then go and field in a fairly easy spot and not be expected to be Neil Fairbrother-esque in the field. Chasing a boundary-bound ball involved using the boot etc. These days a bowler is expected to contribute in the field and so there is less rest between spells.
There is also a higher expectation for a seamer to start a spell at high effort levels, maybe one ball to loosen up and then full pace. Certainly in the 80s and earlier a seamer could get almost a whole over to get up to speed. And there were fewer speed measurements to gauge if a bowler was giving 100%.
This means that warm ups are much more intense nowadays and therefore more injuries occur before the match starts.
-
Suspect back in the day that a fast bowler with a calf niggle would have just bandaged it up and cracked on, rather than having a scan and a few games off. Better miss a couple of games than retire wrecked after 30 tests.
Have you ever torn or strained your calf? It is impossible to even walk briskly.
-
This is going well.
-
This is going well.
Both openers batted well last game and are batting well again. It's normally pretty flat at Lords but I think we are seeing how low on confidence we are with the bat.
Any sign of overheads are we stick them in. I don't really blame Root, he must be thinking we could collapse.
Jimmy just got one. :)
-
Both openers batted well last game and are batting well again. It's normally pretty flat at Lords but I think we are seeing how low on confidence we are with the bat.
Any sign of overheads are we stick them in. I don't really blame Root, he must be thinking we could collapse.
Jimmy just got one. :)
Thank goodness for Sir Jimmy.
You are being far too kind in saying Root thinks we could collapse - I think we WOULD collapse! We collapse on days where there isn’t a cloud in the sky, so today we’d have been done for.
-
Keen to hear your thoughts on Bumrah (average 3.5) at 8 if Mo is too weak 😁
That’s some tail, if we can get the batters out!
Bumrah or Mickey Mouse at 8 is fine with me a hen you have, Shawna, kholi, Rahana, Pant above but we don’t. We have Root and that’s it currently.
Let’s hope he comes good but picked on 100 form and given his previous track record over last couple of years I’m afraid I think it will be same old same old.
Also looks like we could be chasing a fair few here
-
Anyone else notice the analysis of Kohli taking guard by Strauss. How he marked all 3 stumps as usual then went down pitch a little to make a mark outside off stump on the line where he wants to be looking to leave the ball. Surely that's not allowed. He wasn't marking his guard, and even walked a couple of steps down pitch to do it, never seen that before.
-
Would Root now be regretting the decision to bowl first? Should he have been more positive and batted first? I am guessing the cloud cover must have influenced the decision but you also need the bowling attack to exploit conditions.
-
Can understand why he did it, it's generally good for batting at Lords, India do have a tail and it's been overcast most of the day.
You say we need the bowling to exploit the conditions but we need the batting and I'm afraid he probably does not have the confidence to survive.
Not great but that's the reality of it, I think he made the right call. Root is in a bit of a no win situation at the moment.
Curran seems to leak runs most games unless it's really swinging around and you wouldn't expect any spinner to get much day 1.
Not easy at all.
-
Masterful innings by KL Rahul long overdue 6th test century. Considering he was 4th choice opener he can be pretty proud of his work thus far.
-
Bumrah or Mickey Mouse at 8 is fine with me a hen you have, Shawna, kholi, Rahana, Pant above but we don’t. We have Root and that’s it currently.
Let’s hope he comes good but picked on 100 form and given his previous track record over last couple of years I’m afraid I think it will be same old same old.
Also looks like we could be chasing a fair few here
He’s got some to go to convince me that he’s still go much to offer in red ball cricket, but who else do we have at 8/9 that offer more with the bat than Mo and Curran?Pretty sure I’ve seen Wood in at 8 before.
-
Masterful innings by KL Rahul long overdue 6th test century. Considering he was 4th choice opener he can be pretty proud of his work thus far.
Looks like only guys coming in from outside the starting 11 do well for Ind :D (maybe they value the limited chances they get while regulars take it for granted).
-
When India get to 350 they should send up the declare flare, it would put real pressure on our batsmen and being how fragile we are I could see us completely folding for less than 200.
-
The way they're going they really should be looking at 450+
-
Looks like only guys coming in from outside the starting 11 do well for Ind :D (maybe they value the limited chances they get while regulars take it for granted).
KL is the comeback kid! He was given a fair go at the top in tests but couldnt grab his opportunities then. So happy to see him succeed. He is such a treat to watch when in form!
-
Well, I'll take that for a start
-
Pretty safe to say Pujara and Rahane won’t be around too much long. Both are finished.
-
Pant rocking a butterfly bat.
-
Pant rocking a butterfly bat.
standard 🦋 or one of Aldred' s Emperer butterflies?!
-
346-7 at lunch. Jadeja trying to manufacture some runs with India’s 4 number 11s...
It’s a shame we refuse to pick a genuine fourth seamer as Curran has been crap again.
-
What a recovery from England! Wow!
-
Right, we're gonna make a meal of this, right?
-
Let’s see if they can avoid the follow on..
-
These two could bat for three days and still got get to the India score.
-
What on Earth was that. Jesus Christ.
-
Oh for Gods sake
-
Oh, no! :(
-
Think that dismissal should mean the end of Sibley's stint opening for England. He clearly has a problem. Australia would eat him up in the Ashes!
-
I don't think I have ever felt so deflated after a Golden Duck than Hameed's. :(
-
If Sibley gets another international cap I will be surprised.
-
If Sibley get's dropped who is waiting in the wings? It would be stupid if ECB say Crawley. If that was the case to me it means that ECB flipped a coin between Sibley and Crawley on who gets dropped for this test.
-
If Sibley get's dropped who is waiting in the wings? It would be stupid if ECB say Crawley. If that was the case to me it means that ECB flipped a coin between Sibley and Crawley on who gets dropped for this test.
Crawley shouldn’t have been dropped in the first place. It should have been Sibley dropped, and If they really wanted Hameed to play, he should have opened. Of course, he may still have played all around a straight one.
-
These two could bat for three days and still got get to the India score.
Well if you have Matthew Hayden and David Warner waiting in the wings, by all means play them… Till then, don’t think there are better openers than Burns / Sibley - they are very average (and if you had better options, they would have played), but at least they blunt the new ball to some extent.
-
Sibley's dismissal...prime numpty shot. First off, he's consciously played that. It's not a steepling bouncer that he's fended off the shoulder. There's a fielder there specifically. And he got out the same way in the last match. One mitigating factor is it was just after a break.
-
Crawley shouldn’t have been dropped in the first place. It should have been Sibley dropped, and If they really wanted Hameed to play, he should have opened. Of course, he may still have played all around a straight one.
I don't think England wanted to drop Crawley, he looks to have a better all round game as does Pope.
Sibley I still have in for this game but it does beg the question what do they do with him now, keep him in or push Hameed up and creating a space for one of the other batters.
Sibleys dismissed this innings was very poor, it's a nothing shot because he is trying to shovel a ball to the on side.
I think Hameed got done for pace which will take some time adjusting to in tests.
But Sibley is limited and the writing may be on the wall for him.
-
And there was me thinking that was way too high...
-
Crawley shouldn’t have been dropped in the first place. It should have been Sibley dropped, and If they really wanted Hameed to play, he should have opened. Of course, he may still have played all around a straight one.
Spot on statement so now what do England’s do??? They hate looking foolish but let’s hope they bring Crawley back to no3 and Hammed to open. Sibley can’t come back but he has to work on the attacking aspect of his game for sure over the next 12-18months and then maybe be a replacement for Burns as he isn’t a spring chicken
-
And there was me thinking that was way too high...
He's a small lad...
(https://i.ibb.co/4pR3jFg/Eifocoo-XYAEF7-j.png) (https://ibb.co/tDpFbHP)
-
Sibley's dismissal...prime numpty shot. First off, he's consciously played that. It's not a steepling bouncer that he's fended off the shoulder. There's a fielder there specifically. And he got out the same way in the last match. One mitigating factor is it was just after a break.
Bairstow does it every game… he’s still around …
-
If Sibley get's dropped who is waiting in the wings? It would be stupid if ECB say Crawley. If that was the case to me it means that ECB flipped a coin between Sibley and Crawley on who gets dropped for this test.
Don't think it was far from that, probably biased by Crawley's ability to come again compared to Sibley having the look (Ballance, Khawaja) of someone whose technique has been picked apart, hence Dom getting a bit more rope. I do think though that if they do make a switch, Crawley would benefit from opening so that he doesn't start feeling obligated to up the tempo.
-
Suffice to say this has been a pleasant surprise
-
Bairstow has batted well again this innings. He def is a five or six in this line up and plays better down the order.
With the state of our batting his are valuable runs.
-
Can't believe he fell hook line and sinker for that
-
Roooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot
-
Butler doesn't do it for me in test cricket,yet Bairstow gets all the abuse,seems a bit unfair tbh.
-
Butler doesn't do it for me in test cricket,yet Bairstow gets all the abuse,seems a bit unfair tbh.
Buttler gets his fair share too.
-
Well, there's the collapse
-
Wood can bat a nice 20 odd would be handy here :)
-
Butler doesn't do it for me in test cricket,yet Bairstow gets all the abuse,seems a bit unfair tbh.
Butler has had enough chances as well and tbh honest should be moved aside for Foakes permanently now as well, 2 hundreds in 50 odd tests and 90 innings with an avg of a tad over 30 isn’t great, it’s not awful but Foakes is about the same and his glove work is on another level to Butler
-
That 'over' from Bumrah was pathetic
-
That 'over' from Bumrah was pathetic
Only seen it as text commentary but.. when he comes out to bat, they should get Wood to pepper him.
-
Very good in the end from Root and YJB giving England a chance to win but surely not lose this test. Heard a stat that shows how well Toot has played this last year and how poor the rest have been. So far in 2021 Root has 1200+ runs and second is Burns with 323 so 900 runs between Root and the next best. Just not good enough from the rest at all.
-
Only seen it as text commentary but.. when he comes out to bat, they should get Wood to pepper him.
I don’t really see the point of multiple bouncers at number 11 batsmen. Put it this way, if it was us, after the bouncer hits them on the head, that should be the last time your trying to do it.
Credit again to Bairstow, the was another good innings. He looks like he’s trying to rein in a bit and play tighter.
-
sorry but I thnk its time to see the end of Jos. Very rarely contributes with the bat and not the best keeper either.
-
Foakes would be in if not injured I reckon.
-
sorry but I thnk its time to see the end of Jos. Very rarely contributes with the bat and not the best keeper either.
Buttler like Bairstow/Moeen/Curran shouldn't be in the side. They all seem to be golden children (Bairstow did bat well for him again though tbf).. Doesn't mean he should keep his place after years of failures !
Root - What can you say.. He's not only our only Test class batsmen full stop but also a world class middle order batter.
As for bouncing Anderson.. fair enough.. it's test cricket.. if you're fast enough.. give it back to them. Leave the silly 'must bowl it where the batter can slog it' to white ball.
-
It’s test cricket. If India think their best chance of removing Anderson is to pepper him with short stuff, then that’s fair enough. Bumrah knows that he will likely get the same in return (albeit in the form of 78mph Curran buffet balls).
-
It’s test cricket. If India think their best chance of removing Anderson is to pepper him with short stuff, then that’s fair enough. Bumrah knows that he will likely get the same in return (albeit in the form of 78mph Curran buffet balls).
anderson missed a straight ball .. no feet movement.. I'd say it worked just fine.. Nothing wrong with short ball barrage if the bowling is actually quick enough (compared to the batsmen of course)
-
Short stuff fine, bit dubious about repeatedly overstepping on bouncers to the point it seems almost deliberate.
-
Short stuff fine, bit dubious about repeatedly overstepping on bouncers to the point it seems almost deliberate.
No different to throwing the ball in on the bounce to scuff it up.. 'almost' say that's deliberate too :) :) :)
Nah, bouncer barrage is and should be part of test cricket. It's good fun and against tail enders... it's a good tactic. imagine someone taking curran's head off at high speed rather than serving up full balls for him to biff . great fun..
actually starting to like the idea of 90+ mph in aus vs curran... would be quite amusing to see him peppered
-
Whether Curran is any good as a batsman or not is debateable but he can't be compared with Anderson who is a genuine tailender.
But it's legit tactic as has been said. in the last match Robinson got whacked in the lid and turned down a single to expose Anderson- I thought that was classy from Robinson and a good example of team work looking after your partner
-
Root's bowl first decision which seemed a bad decision at first has turned out to be a masterstroke. Seeing a WTC final repeat and will be surprised if Eng don't win from here. Safe to say Root in form of his life not just with batting but with captaincy as well :)
-
Robinson's slower ball deliveries are an absolute treat to watch
-
Suffice to say we've lost our way with this
-
Suffice to say we've lost our way with this
Umm, did you expect anything less??
Mo getting tonked is amusing
-
Umm, did you expect anything less??
Mo getting tonked is amusing
After the start they made, I wasn't expecting this shower.
-
Imagine throwing away the opportunity to chase a reasonable target because we want to bowl short at Bumrah because Anderson’s feelings got hurt when he batted.
Brainless captaincy and tactics.
Bumrah averaged 3 before this innings smh
-
After the start they made, I wasn't expecting this shower.
I dunno. England just had a really good day with Root. England were down and out but for some brilliance, back to usual today overall. Again, don't get carried away with England after one good knock/day/game. Now to show fight and save the game and not capitulate with a slog or a skittling out
-
so... who here would 'have a go' and chase??
Would you throw in bairstow with burns to open, buttler 3, root 4, mo 5, curran 6 and then if that fails.. shut up show with hameed/sibley ? I just don't fancy bairstow/buttler/mo/curran to save a game
Personally.. I'd just bat it out. Can't win without someone magical so I'd take the points and wait for the next game.. Deny India the win
-
Braindead cricket from England.
Looking forward to watching Sibley smash 100 off 47 balls.
-
oh dear.. one dead man walking gone
-
Oh dear. 1-1
-
Sigh
-
no fight.
Sorry state
And people were getting all OTT about this side again just yesterday.
All on Root and Hameed now... Don't back the rest to do anything useful
-
If Sibley plays in the 3rd test I will be very grumpy.
-
If Sibley plays in the 3rd test I will be very grumpy.
I'm of a similar mind but who comes in?
-
At least Hameed didn't get a king pair.
-
Ollie Pope the only cab left on the rank but he’s barely good enough at 5/6, will he be shoehorned at 3?
-
I'm of a similar mind but who comes in?
Hameed to open and Crawley to bat 3. Not ideal I know, but at the moment there’s no alternative. Beggars believe that Malan can’t get in this side.
-
Wow, lucky Hameed. What a dolly.
-
Wow, lucky Hameed. What a dolly.
soft hands means they are very close.
Hameed can really re-establish himself with a rear guard action today.. or utterly fail....
Sibley is no worse than Burns lets be honest. Both are dire. Crawley is no better and anyone wanting to push Root, pope, stokes, buttler, bairstow or alike up the order are clowns.
Malan probably the ONLY viable option but then he's not a long term prospect.. They've missed another chance for Malan by recalling Bairstow again.
-
India just giving us the extras for a laugh
-
soft hands means they are very close.
Hameed can really re-establish himself with a rear guard action today.. or utterly fail....
Sibley is no worse than Burns lets be honest. Both are dire. Crawley is no better and anyone wanting to push Root, pope, stokes, buttler, bairstow or alike up the order are clowns.
Malan probably the ONLY viable option but then he's not a long term prospect.. They've missed another chance for Malan by recalling Bairstow again.
Despite Malan's lack of red ball cricket, I would sooner see him at 3 than Crawley, Bairstow or Pope. I'm not sure Malan would do better at 5 than YJB, but almost certain he is a better prospect at 3.
-
I've had Sibley in my team as I've said many times.
I think the only thing England can do now is @SouthpawMark let Hameed have a good run, he has the potential.
And then at 3 let Crawley bat there come hell or high water. He has a good all round game.
It's picking on potential but can't see any other option for us, there is Pope but again, has he done enough..
Bairstow to be fair has batted well and there is still Lawrence, again, potentially ok.
We really are short of options.
-
I'd just stick with what we have
Hameed
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Stokes (With him out, I'd pop Malan at 3 and Crawley at 5 to hopefully let him develop with an easier batting slot)
Pope
Foakes (bye bye Barstow/buttler)
Robinson (needs to add some pace on but he is impressing)
Broad/Wood
Anderson/Wood
Leech
lets face it.. no one is any better so we might as well go with what we have but just CUT OUT the hype when they have a good day (like people are suddenly saying Bairstow is now the messiah again!).. he's failed for so long, a random knock isn't changing that or deserving of a run.
Archer is done for.. injury prone after they broke him and again.. face facts.. he wants to bowl 4 overs for the money.
Burns in the squad as cover for top 3 but I'd just back the younger players now. Lets face it... not much difference
-
Hameed out.
YJB hasn’t been bowled through the gate for a couple of matches. I think today is the day.
-
game over.. Could get bowled out now quite easily
-
I'd just stick with what we have
Hameed
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Stokes (With him out, I'd pop Malan at 3 and Crawley at 5 to hopefully let him develop with an easier batting slot)
Pope
Foakes (bye bye Barstow/buttler)
Robinson (needs to add some pace on but he is impressing)
Broad/Wood
Anderson/Wood
Leech
lets face it.. no one is any better so we might as well go with what we have but just CUT OUT the hype when they have a good day (like people are suddenly saying Bairstow is now the messiah again!).. he's failed for so long, a random knock isn't changing that or deserving of a run.
Archer is done for.. injury prone after they broke him and again.. face facts.. he wants to bowl 4 overs for the money.
Burns in the squad as cover for top 3 but I'd just back the younger players now. Lets face it... not much difference
Stokes is injured, Foakes is injured, Crawley is in horrible nick. Other than that you're not a million miles away.
Think Overton probably deserves a game this series, especially if Wood is injured now. They can still bring in someone to bat 3 and I think that has to be the best option. No doubt Bairstow will be pushed up and fail instead though.
-
Stokes is injured, Foakes is injured, Crawley is in horrible nick. Other than that you're not a million miles away.
Think Overton probably deserves a game this series, especially if Wood is injured now. They can still bring in someone to bat 3 and I think that has to be the best option. No doubt Bairstow will be pushed up and fail instead though.
I wasn't looking at injuries intentionally as the 'spares' are in teh list to cover such things (excluding keeper tbf.. might as well keep Buttler as wk while foakes is down).
Crawley/Malan can fill in for Pope/Stokes at 5/6
-
This is where all the white ball prioritization will come to the fore. Bairstow,Buttler,Moeen to go hammer and tongs and chase this down in 20 overs?
-
Sibley is finished.
For the next test:
Hameed
Burns
Malan
Root
Bairstow
Buttler
Ali
Overton
Robinson
Wood
Anderson
Crawley,Pope ,Sibley and Lawrence have had enough chances for now and need some time out the limelight,and sessions with Gary Palmer.
-
Wood looked like he's really hurt himself earlier, wouldn't be shocked if he's out for a few games.
-
Sibley is finished.
For the next test:
Hameed
Burns
Malan
Root
Bairstow
Buttler
Ali
Overton
Robinson
Wood
Anderson
Crawley,Pope ,Sibley and Lawrence have had enough chances for now and need some time out the limelight,and sessions with Gary Palmer.
So you're calling time on 4 young players but re-calling a tried and failed player in Bairstow???
-
dire dire dire bairstow... he's taking off stump guard to try and not get bowled.... problem with that.. You'll just be out LBW when you miss one... that's literally the same dismissal as usual for him..
Why o why do people back this guy so much.. jesus christ
-
this mornings shocking tactics and bowling have cost us big time here
-
Sigh. England fans had better start doing a rain dance.
-
ward to atherton 'You don't want to change the way you play do you?' ---I mean.. that's utterly clueless and sadly means the public think that 'it's the way I play' is acceptable.
Of course you can't just play how you do.. YOU HAVE TO ADAPT TO THE GAME SIUTATION .. jesus... No wonder modern players can't bat time
This is the time to dig in
Sure it's nothing like the quality of Donald but think Atherton.. THink Prior... THink Collingwood.. Think Ponting ... Save the game.. Scrap hard. Fight.. show something more than just flashy shots or 'it's the way I play'
-
So you're calling time on 4 young players but re-calling a tried and failed player in Bairstow???
Not completely calling time and no-re-call for Bairstow,he's already in the side
-
Not completely calling time and no-re-call for Bairstow,he's already in the side
Is getting out the same way (aka, beaten on teh inside of his bat again) acceptable?? I mean, that's literally THE SAME dismissal as is his usual way... NO change there (well, except he was batting on off stump so was lbw rather than cleaned up I suppose)
How does he have so much support after one randomly good performance
-
Game over then
-
the door isn't open Bumble... There is no flipping door... we gon
chin music for the flapping moeen then nick off coming?? useless vs the short ball after all
-
Is getting out the same way (aka, beaten on teh inside of his bat again) acceptable?? I mean, that's literally THE SAME dismissal as is his usual way... NO change there (well, except he was batting on off stump so was lbw rather than cleaned up I suppose)
How does he have so much support after one randomly good performance
As Atherton said the other day, he’s the easily the second best batsman in the squad. He may not be good enough, but he’s the (second) best you’ve got.
-
India only themselves to blame here with the drop, edge off a no-ball
-
please can someone put Curran out his misery and pack his bag back to county white ball cricket. Two ducks
-
Curran makes history, as we all knew he would.
-
It’s desperate listening on the radio. Yesterday I thought we would win
-
These Indian cricketers really are incredibly obnoxious. No need for that sort of behaviour in test cricket. Kohli is a terrible influence.
-
Some of...
These Indian cricketers really are incredibly obnoxious. No need for that sort of behaviour in test cricket. Kohli is a terrible influence.
-
Suraj's death stare glare :o
-
These Indian cricketers really are incredibly obnoxious. No need for that sort of behaviour in test cricket. Kohli is a terrible influence.
When the ball hit Robinson, Siraj and Bumrah definitely went too far. More Indian players have stayed classy.
[size=78%]Saw the umpire talk into his mic, so hopefully it's reported and will be dealt with after. [/size]
-
These Indian cricketers really are incredibly obnoxious. No need for that sort of behaviour in test cricket. Kohli is a terrible influence.
stokes/robinson and Anderson/broad are just as bad.. There is no need for any of it
-
Some of...
True. Pujara is alright.
-
Pak vs WI yesterday, and now this game… Nothing beats Test cricket
-
Let’s hope the idea of 4 day test matches are binned off
It’s def the best format of the game.
-
5 day test matches with a reserve day to make up for the lost overs. My dream.
-
Buttler doing well here. fair play lad
-
Game over then...
-
Buttler doing well here. fair play lad
Until he played at one on 5th maybe 6th stump. Another that shouldn’t be in the red ball side but he isn’t as culpable as some above him but you can’t have him and YJB in the side should only be 1 or none when’s Foakes is fit.
-
Woefully inept with the bat again
-
Good win for India. All is not lost for England as well. Good test match for the neutrals.
-
We just couldn’t hang on long enough, one wicket brought two..
You suspect there will be an inquest after this game
I’d like to see Silverwood front up first, not Root again-he’s cannot do much more
-
Wow, didn't see that coming. End of day 4 - only draw or eng win seemed possible. How things turned in a single day..
-
That was dismal. Awful morning session with the ball, and woeful with the bat. There are maybe 5/6 players in that XI who in any other era wouldn’t get in the test side. ECB are entirely to blame for forgetting about the purest form of the game, whilst focusing entirely on the hit and giggle white ball crap.
-
Outclassed by an exceptional bowling attack. You don’t win many matches when you have 2 top players and many passengers.
Thank fudge it rained in Nottingham otherwise it would 0-2
-
The mindless short ball strategy today morning cost England. Root and co will have a hard think about how they let proper tail enders Bumrah and Shami to score so many runs. The Indian attack was absolutely brilliant though. What a win!
-
The mindless short ball strategy today morning cost England. Root and co will have a hard think about how they let proper tail enders Bumrah and Shami to score so many runs. The Indian attack was absolutely brilliant though. What a win!
Exactly why Root is a very average captain. Shockingly stupid strategy.
-
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/eng-vs-ind-2nd-test-lords-5th-day-jasprit-bumrah-and-mohammed-shami-and-england-s-great-malfunction-1273654 (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/eng-vs-ind-2nd-test-lords-5th-day-jasprit-bumrah-and-mohammed-shami-and-england-s-great-malfunction-1273654)
-
Root needs Butler and Stokes next to him he always has done from day 1.
We got the tactics wrong and got them wrong in a big way. Root has come out and said so. Got nothing but admiration for him, he is not a natural or instinctive captain, is carrying is virtually by himself so how much can he take.
Where is SILVERWOOD to face the press and take some pressure off Root? Absolutely nowhere.
England have problems that cannot be fixed short term as others have said. There's no red ball cricket and not many batsmen in form.
I think Sibley has had enough chances now, let Hameed open and stick with him.
And we need a number 3. I dunno what anyone else thinks but Malan is an option(no red ball cricket recently).
I think I would stick Crawley back at 3 and to hell with what he scores. He has the game and the talent front and backfoot both sides of the wicket.
But well played India, bowled brilliantly and won the important sessions.
-
From the highlights, it was only Curran who was out on a perfect ball bowled! The rest of the batters played at wide balls and got out!
-
From the highlights, it was only Curran who was out on a perfect ball bowled! The rest of the batters played at wide balls and got out!
Did you actually watch the highlights? Hameed was LBW, Bairstow was LBW, Root nicked one he had to play at because it was tight to off stump, Robinson was LBW and Anderson was bowled.
-
India losing a few to injury before the series has started. Gill has a broken shin. Sundar broken thumb. Agarwal hit on his head by Siraj out with concussion.
Yeah 4-0 home win. No doubts at all.
This aged well @Jeff Navarro
-
This aged well @Jeff Navarro
LOL
-
Did you actually watch the highlights? Hameed was LBW, Bairstow was LBW, Root nicked one he had to play at because it was tight to off stump, Robinson was LBW and Anderson was bowled.
Sibley on the end of a rip snorter too. He’s obviously going through a tough time but not much anyone could have done about that delivery.
-
Sibley on the end of a rip snorter too. He’s obviously going through a tough time but not much anyone could have done about that delivery.
It was a good ball. However, he’s not going to get a stay of execution because he got out to a good ball. The fact is that he’s out of his depth, and he will never, ever, be good enough for test cricket. We’ve seen a big enough sample size now to know that he’s not the answer (and neither are Burns, Hameed, Bairstow, Buttler or Curran). In summary, English red ball cricket is in a shocking state.
-
I’m not doubting his position in the team, it’s fairly obvious he’s not really a test opener.
I’m just saying it was a great ball on a tight line that pretty much everyone would get out to.
-
Sometimes the technique and the position the batsman gets into makes it feel as if it is unplayable though it might not necessarily be the case. For e.g., Pujara gets "unplayable" balls a lot more than others but I feel it is because he stands still and also crouches low, so looks like he gets unplayable balls as soon as there is some deviation near off stump or if the ball rises a bit more than expectecd. Imagine De Villiers playing similar delivery - he would get behind the line and either defend or leave it well based on line or even height by dropping the hands.
-
What a game....could not watch it full live...watched the highlights now
Everyone contributed in the indian side....rahane was being mocked heavily and even he played a big role
Other than Rohit sharma getting out of a short ball which he would hit any day , most wickets came of length ball or the lbw of tail from fuller balls
So not sure who came up with the short ball strategy :)
Joe root got the century but he does not have much support, butler , bairstow everyone is struggling
Test match batting is all about spending time in the middle and even shami got a 50 by staying there
Someone should make a video of kohli's expressions after every england wicket fall, but this indian team's can win attitude is what made them win against Aus and now this game on day 5
hopefully someone will support joe root in the batting department in the upcoming matches
love test cricket
-
What I just keep on thinking after this test is ..... Where the hell is Silverwood??!!! And also What is he doing to this side now he has full control of it??
He has just let Root come out to do the PC and take all the flack, his captain who has the whole team on his shoulders, he hardly needed more stress after he quite obviously had a shocker in the field.
Silverwood hasn't won a test match since he took over full responsibility of everything and his overall test record as coach reads, P22, W9, L8, D5, pretty poor really!
Also the bowlers must take some responsibility for what happened, they have brains of their own, they are experienced, and can't just be Root says this so I must do it!
-
I've been thinking about the first class structure since watching the game yesterday and wondering what the ECB could do to grow better test match cricketers. I think we can all agree that there are quite a few players playing for England in the test matches that aren't good enough even after an extended run in the side.
As a cricket badger it pains me to say it but I think that there is probably too much cricket being played at the professional level. I don't think it is sustainable to have:
1. County Championship
2. Royal London Cup
3. The Hundred
4. Vitality Blast.
5. International 20 over matches (endless amounts)
6. International 50 over matches
7. Test matches
First class cricket is shoved in at the start of the season when there are no test matches for two months and then right at the end of the season when there is maybe one test left. How could you replace someone in the test matches with someone who has been playing in the Hundred? The only thing I could think of was perhaps we have a series of first class matches that take place during the test matches that is along the lines of North Vs South Vs East Vs West or however you want to divide it. You could have England over 25's vs England under 25's. I don't particularly care as long as some meaningful first class cricket takes place at some point during the main part of the summer. I appreciate that you would have to take players out of the Hundred to do so but something has to give at some point.
I don't have anything against limited overs cricket and I think that the Hundred has been good for getting people thinking, talking and playing cricket. Anything that promotes the game is great but it is clear that in England (at least) test match cricket is still very important. Do we really care if we win an international one day series or T20 series? We remember the test matches the most. If you asked anyone would we rather win the Ashes or lose the Ashes and win the limited overs series?
I understand that it is a delicate balancing act and finances play a big part in the volume of one day cricket that is played and seen but it's quantity and not quality. I can't help but feel that the structure needs a total overhaul with the focus on less cricket volume.
Is it better to have 100 top professionals playing professional cricket or 750 average professionals playing professional cricket?
Truth is apart from one golden period we have been a very inconsistent test match side for a long time.
I don't have any answers but I do hope that at some level within the ECB a conversation is taking place about the balance of cricket in the professional game and someone is asking the question 'have we got the balance right'?
-
There’s no reason why you couldn’t have CC matches during the Blast or The Hundred. You can get a decent gauge of a bowler regardless of the form of cricket, and we’ve seen (with a few exceptions in England) that batters who thrive in the short game don’t last for long in test cricket as their attacking instincts become so ingrained.
The ECBs obsession with white ball was fine while we were rubbish at it. However, we have now won the ultimate prize, and it is time to focus on the red ball game again. They should also realise their mistake and get shot of Silverwood too.
-
Does everyone really expect Chris Woakes to come straight back without any match practice? As far as I’m aware Woakes has a broken heel. Steyn did something similar was out for nearly a year.
-
This aged well @Jeff Navarro
0-4 still on the cards :(
-
It was a good ball. However, he’s not going to get a stay of execution because he got out to a good ball. The fact is that he’s out of his depth, and he will never, ever, be good enough for test cricket. We’ve seen a big enough sample size now to know that he’s not the answer (and neither are Burns, Hameed, Bairstow, Buttler or Curran). In summary, English red ball cricket is in a shocking state.
So everyone is quick to discard Sibley but again.. Bairstow?? The lad has failed time and Time again.. Yesterday he took off stump guard to try and limit his weakness and STILL got out in the same way (only LBW rather than bowled as the ball couldn't physically hit the stumps due to his pads!)... Why is he getting 'a stay of execution' again and again but Sibley.... nope.. you gon .
Come on. If you're going to be harsh on Sibley (who isn't good enough btw) then please be just as harsh on Burns, Sibley, Crawley, Pope, Bairstow, Buttler, Moeen, Curran who are all simply not good enough for test cricket and have never been. I mean, what more utter failure does Curran have to do to get get dropped from being the golden child 'oh he is so aggressive though' 'he's variation'... the kids just not a red ball player. suck it up and leave him to be a bits and pieces white ball player.. no shame in it, just not his thing red ball cricket.
-
Sometimes the technique and the position the batsman gets into makes it feel as if it is unplayable though it might not necessarily be the case. For e.g., Pujara gets "unplayable" balls a lot more than others but I feel it is because he stands still and also crouches low, so looks like he gets unplayable balls as soon as there is some deviation near off stump or if the ball rises a bit more than expectecd. Imagine De Villiers playing similar delivery - he would get behind the line and either defend or leave it well based on line or even height by dropping the hands.
ABdV lets face it like Ponting/Williamson/Kallis/Sangakkara et all are just levels above players like Pujara and co. Sure look to them for inspiration and how to do things but lets not expect them to be able to do it.. or at least not consistently
-
Crawley and Pope are 23, bit early to be writing them off altogether. Crawley has shown he has the technique and mentality to go big, he's just in horrible nick and needs to go away and work on a few things with his coaches. Pope has had a string of injuries but his talent is clear to see, he needs a run of injury free game time and to be batted in the right position in the order.
-
Crawley hasn’t shown the technique at all. A one off ‘fluke’ is all that 267 was.
Burns not enough good heck he’s got more ducks than hundreds...
Sibley literally has one scoring shot
Crawley clearly not good enough
Pope the greatest thing since slice bread exposed at the highest level.
Bairstow averages 50 in domestic red ball yet after 70 odd tests still hasn’t got it at test level.
Buttler(I’m a massive fan) but the geezer isn’t red ball standard. I keep reading ‘Jos is like Pant’ yeah sure he is...
S Curran nothing against the boy but he’s truly one of the worst ever England test cricketers. Can’t bowl for toffee. Now the brainless slogging isn’t working either.
So 7 lame ducks not like we’ve got another 7 capable to replace them...
But at least we got some 100 ball garbage...
-
Ollie Pope just had his stumps demolished by Chris Rushworth for a duck...yeah he’s not gonna cut it as #3.
-
Crawley hasn’t shown the technique at all. A one off ‘fluke’ is all that 267 was.
Burns not enough good heck he’s got more ducks than hundreds...
Sibley literally has one scoring shot
Crawley clearly not good enough
Pope the greatest thing since slice bread exposed at the highest level.
Bairstow averages 50 in domestic red ball yet after 70 odd tests still hasn’t got it at test level.
Buttler(I’m a massive fan) but the geezer isn’t red ball standard. I keep reading ‘Jos is like Pant’ yeah sure he is...
S Curran nothing against the boy but he’s truly one of the worst ever England test cricketers. Can’t bowl for toffee. Now the brainless slogging isn’t working either.
So 7 lame ducks not like we’ve got another 7 capable to replace them...
But at least we got some 100 ball garbage...
None of Burns, Sibley, Hameed or Crawley seem good enough.. However, they are the best options currently so we might as well back the 3 youngest but ensure they work on RED BALL technical improvements/mentality. That means Burns becomes the spare from the three
Curran/Bairstow/Buttler can all go play white ball cricket please. Buttler at least tries to bat long but just isn't really good enough.
pope looks the business but keeps getting out. Again, there isn't anyone better so might as well persist but just get him ONLY playing red ball and develop his mental ability as that's obviously where the issue is.
This can't be fixed short term but realistic expectations are needed about players and the team. We've seen just this week how one good (by good we mean just not as reckless!) knock by Bairstow suddenly makes him a shoe in again when he really shouldn't be anywhere near or at the most, people should be going 'he's not good enough but had a good knock)
-
Sam Curran one of the worst England test cricketers ever? I only started watching in 2005 and I know that's a lot of mince.
-
Sam Curran one of the worst England test cricketers ever? I only started watching in 2005 and I know that's a lot of mince.
Sam Curran makes or is at least very close to making my worst ever England Test XI - that would be an interesting thread lol
-
Sam Curran makes or is at least very close to making my worst ever England Test XI - that would be an interesting thread lol
That's your recency bias shining through, you're forgetting how awful England have been at test cricket in the past. Some far better examples of "worst test cricketers" even over the last ten or so years.
Simon Kerrigan, Jason Roy, Samit Patel, Zafar Ansari, Jake Ball...
-
That's your recency bias shining through, you're forgetting how awful England have been at test cricket in the past. Some far better examples of "worst test cricketers" even over the last ten or so years.
Simon Kerrigan, Jason Roy, Samit Patel, Zafar Ansari, Jake Ball...
The age I am believe me I have seen some rubbish, like Aftab Habib or numerous 1/2 cap wonders from the 80/early 90's.
The problem with Curran is he actually thinks he's good. He is amongst that list in my book.
But I completely take your point there are some awful players in your list.
-
None of Burns, Sibley, Hameed or Crawley seem good enough.. However, they are the best options currently so we might as well back the 3 youngest but ensure they work on RED BALL technical improvements/mentality. That means Burns becomes the spare from the three
Curran/Bairstow/Buttler can all go play white ball cricket please. Buttler at least tries to bat long but just isn't really good enough.
pope looks the business but keeps getting out. Again, there isn't anyone better so might as well persist but just get him ONLY playing red ball and develop his mental ability as that's obviously where the issue is.
This can't be fixed short term but realistic expectations are needed about players and the team. We've seen just this week how one good (by good we mean just not as reckless!) knock by Bairstow suddenly makes him a shoe in again when he really shouldn't be anywhere near or at the most, people should be going 'he's not good enough but had a good knock)
Wish you'd stop sitting on the fence and tell us if you rate Bairstow or not! 😆
For me Burns and Sibley have never convinced they'll be up to it. So not sure where we go from here with out top 6 tbh, but obviously Stokes slots straight back in at 6 when fit. I'd personally give Bairstow a run at 5, as he's never realy had a settled role in the test side and there's nobody else beating down the door who convinces me they'd do more. Hameed maybe to open with Burns (struggling to find an alternative) and Malan at 3, Root 4, Bairstow 5, Butler 6.
Still not convinced by most of this top order tbf, but it's the best i can come up with for now. In fairness to India, they do have a very good bowling attack which works well in our conditions. If we'd have bowled better yesterday morning and run through their tail, then we could have been having a much different discussion now.
-
The age I am believe me I have seen some rubbish, like Aftab Habib or numerous 1/2 cap wonders from the 80/early 90's.
The problem with Curran is he actually thinks he's good. He is amongst that list in my book.
But I completely take your point there are some awful players in your list.
What do you mean "he thinks he's good"? Do you not reckon plenty of other, worse cricketers have rated themselves?
I'd say the biggest problem with Curran is he simply hasn't played enough non-Test FC cricket so he doesn't have a method worked out when his favoured game plans aren't working. His lack of discipline with the ball in this test betrayed the lack of experience and nous. With the bat, if he can't attack he doesn't look convincing at all, that I'd also put down to not having played enough FC matches.
-
Wish you'd stop sitting on the fence and tell us if you rate Bairstow or not! 😆
For me Burns and Sibley have never convinced they'll be up to it. So not sure where we go from here with out top 6 tbh, but obviously Stokes slots straight back in at 6 when fit. I'd personally give Bairstow a run at 5, as he's never realy had a settled role in the test side and there's nobody else beating down the door who convinces me they'd do more. Hameed maybe to open with Burns (struggling to find an alternative) and Malan at 3, Root 4, Bairstow 5, Butler 6.
Still not convinced by most of this top order tbf, but it's the best i can come up with for now. In fairness to India, they do have a very good bowling attack which works well in our conditions. If we'd have bowled better yesterday morning and run through their tail, then we could have been having a much different discussion now.
In terms of people knocking on the door, when you look at this years CC it is Libby at Worcester with 798 runs @68, then Karlson at Glamorgan with 790 @65, Haines at Sussex with 767 @45, after that noone has scored 700 runs in 10 matches.
And any of those 3 would be very left field picks, apart from maybe Libby who has a few good seasons behind him.
-
What do you mean "he thinks he's good"? Do you not reckon plenty of other, worse cricketers have rated themselves?
I'd say the biggest problem with Curran is he simply hasn't played enough non-Test FC cricket so he doesn't have a method worked out when his favoured game plans aren't working. His lack of discipline with the ball in this test betrayed the lack of experience and nous. With the bat, if he can't attack he doesn't look convincing at all, that I'd also put down to not having played enough FC matches.
What I mean by that is I think he looks arrogant with it all, when he isn't very good.
You are probably right with regards his FC experience.
-
What I mean by that is I think he looks arrogant with it all, when he isn't very good.
You are probably right with regards his FC experience.
Are you absolutely sure this isn't just because of his daft hairdo? 😂
-
Sam Curran has played 50 fc matches + 20 odd tests. That’s not a small sample size. In those 70 odd matches he’s got ZERO centuries. Yet he’s hyped up as Ben Stoke 2.0.
Curran is bang average simple as.
-
ABdV lets face it like Ponting/Williamson/Kallis/Sangakkara et all are just levels above players like Pujara and co. Sure look to them for inspiration and how to do things but lets not expect them to be able to do it.. or at least not consistently
Agree, but it tells us there is a different way to deal with some of those balls marked as "unplayable" - just need to look at how these guys do it. The "that ball could have got anyone out" logic assumes any batsman would be in same position to the ball as the one who got out but thing is better batsmen wouldn't be in the same position for that ball in the first place, so might not be as unplayable as it is made out to be.
-
The list of players who are not good enough is considerable.
Silverwood has given his press briefing, not a word of support for Root who is carrying our team. Yes mistakes were made, yes it probably cost us the match.
Is anyone else actually angry with the hierarchy of the ECB? I rarely get that bothered these days but am now. It’s not the loss-well played India-it’s the fact no management have any balls. We are asking players with no 4 day cricket in a big series to perform when it’s odds against.
Root is not a natural or instinctive Captain, we know that
But does the buck stop with him?
I’m seriously pissed off
-
If I'm honest I completely agree. I can't shake the feeling that the reason we have digressed into the 90s is that the guys sailing the ship ie Silverwood and Giles are bang average players from that era. Both nice guys whose heart is in the right place, but they are different to Andy Flower and Duncan Fletcher who have both managed the team through our best periods.
If you look at the more successful coaches (I think of Andy Flower,Eddie Jones or Warren Gatland for example) they take the heat off the captain and the team and take ownership of their decisions - I just don't see that happening at the moment. Joe Root has to own absolutely everything, which can't be right. Also as a coach the team's performance is a reflection of the work you have done with the team, at the moment I feel like the plan is 'either the players come good themselves or they aren't good enough' - is that honestly the best strategy we have? Obviously I'm ignorant of what's going on and maybe don't see all the hard work behind the scenes, and hey maybe the players just aren't good enough - but whatever the 'strategy' is at the moment, it's not working.
-
Totally agree with you. I’m losing confidence in Silverwood quickly.
Giles said 12 months ago ‘the focus moves to red ball’. It hasn’t.
I’m delighted we won the WC, but if you look at the rotation against India in India, the test players were rested.
Not a single one was rotated for the one day games.Root got the rough end of those decisions and that’s when the rot started.
-
Wish you'd stop sitting on the fence and tell us if you rate Bairstow or not! 😆
For me Burns and Sibley have never convinced they'll be up to it. So not sure where we go from here with out top 6 tbh, but obviously Stokes slots straight back in at 6 when fit. I'd personally give Bairstow a run at 5, as he's never realy had a settled role in the test side and there's nobody else beating down the door who convinces me they'd do more. Hameed maybe to open with Burns (struggling to find an alternative) and Malan at 3, Root 4, Bairstow 5, Butler 6.
Still not convinced by most of this top order tbf, but it's the best i can come up with for now. In fairness to India, they do have a very good bowling attack which works well in our conditions. If we'd have bowled better yesterday morning and run through their tail, then we could have been having a much different discussion now.
No.. Those who blindly follow what the ECB and media spout and will swing between 'england are world class' 'Bairstow is in our best 6' or' look, buttler blasted 100, how great is he.. move him to 3'... that brigade are part of the problem because they literally won't admit players aren't upto it and so just go 'hey, he's awesome'.. just look at some people over bairstow this test.. He is 70 odd tests in and has failed failed failed.. yet, two knocks of not many runs and suddenly he's undroppable again.. jesus christ.
England had a random stroke of luck with roots 180.. lets not get carried away yet again and think england weren't anything but lucky just to be in this game .
Why are people so blind to the failings. Not saying don't wish them well but don't blindly claim they are any good
-
In terms of people knocking on the door, when you look at this years CC it is Libby at Worcester with 798 runs @68, then Karlson at Glamorgan with 790 @65, Haines at Sussex with 767 @45, after that noone has scored 700 runs in 10 matches.
And any of those 3 would be very left field picks, apart from maybe Libby who has a few good seasons behind him.
This year's CC mostly happened three months ago. Would those players still be in form even if they were good enough? (They're not.)
-
The squad is announced tommorow with a recall for Vince tipped to slot in at 3.
The guy has the talent and the shots but has been tried before. I guess in comparison to the others who have been tried it makes sense.
I think as well England will revert to a more senior player coming in so that could fit
-
Vince, averaging 40 with a single hundred in 12 FC innings this season. Christ...
-
just look at some people over bairstow this test.. He is 70 odd tests in and has failed failed failed.. yet, two knocks of not many runs and suddenly he's undroppable again.. jesus christ.
We all get that you hate the guy with a passion but really?
Aside from the fact that all of the media experts have him in our best top six... He's not undroppable but if you were dropping him you'd be making, what, eight or nine changes. Even in the 80s that'd have had you certified.
-
Vince, averaging 40 with a single hundred in 12 FC innings this season. Christ...
More pertinently, Vince choosing to bat himself five rather than going in first drop.
-
Sam Curran has played 50 fc matches + 20 odd tests. That’s not a small sample size. In those 70 odd matches he’s got ZERO centuries. Yet he’s hyped up as Ben Stoke 2.0.
Curran is bang average simple as.
I couldn't agree more. I'm only watching the highlights as I'm in Australia but he looks very average to me. Not at all threatening with the ball and lacks game awareness with the bat.
Don't get me started on Hameed, he must have done something right in County cricket but he's hopeless in the field and all at sea with the bat.
I'm looking forward to the Ashes.
-
The batting is the obvious major issue but with Wood a doubt and Archer and Stone already out of the Ashes surely you don't risk him, that makes are attack very samey.
Broad's out of the series, Anderson's just played 2 on the bounce...... Who's getting the call up to bowl?
-
The batting is the obvious major issue but with Wood a doubt and Archer and Stone already out of the Ashes surely you don't risk him, that makes are attack very samey.
Broad's out of the series, Anderson's just played 2 on the bounce...... Who's getting the call up to bowl?
You're right, the problem are mounting. Robinson and Overton look similar. I think Curran will have to stay in the side. There's no way Wood will be risked. Mahmood in for Wood, with the gap between tests Anderson will prob play 3 on the bounce.
-
I Googled 'Vince set for recall' and got stories from 2018 and 2019. It's slmost like nothing's changed?
-
I Googled 'Vince set for recall' and got stories from 2018 and 2019. It's slmost like nothing's changed?
Haha so did I! Well said.
-
We all get that you hate the guy with a passion but really?
Aside from the fact that all of the media experts have him in our best top six... He's not undroppable but if you were dropping him you'd be making, what, eight or nine changes. Even in the 80s that'd have had you certified.
hate is a strong word. I don't have 'him', I hate that he's managing to forge a test career when he's not been good enough for years and years. Added to that, just look at the comments here.. people are saying x should be dropped, can't go back to Vince etc etc.. Why are we dropping Sibley and co and yet, keep trying and failing with Bairtsow.
I get you love him as he's a yorkie but still.. He's PROVEN time and time and time again he's not up to it. His dismissal this test was the same dismissal again.. You might as well throw in a rookie , at least we'd learn something rather than rehashing the same mistakes time and time again.
I wouldn't mind Bairstow if people were honest about him but jus took at this thread.. suddenly he's awesome again etc.. no one is saying 'sure, he actually did ok but he's still not good enough'.. Hell, people have been talking about him going to 3!!!
-
hate is a strong word. I don't have 'him', I hate that he's managing to forge a test career when he's not been good enough for years and years. Added to that, just look at the comments here.. people are saying x should be dropped, can't go back to Vince etc etc.. Why are we dropping Sibley and co and yet, keep trying and failing with Bairtsow.
I get you love him as he's a yorkie but still.. He's PROVEN time and time and time again he's not up to it. His dismissal this test was the same dismissal again.. You might as well throw in a rookie , at least we'd learn something rather than rehashing the same mistakes time and time again.
I wouldn't mind Bairstow if people were honest about him but jus took at this thread.. suddenly he's awesome again etc.. no one is saying 'sure, he actually did ok but he's still not good enough'.. Hell, people have been talking about him going to 3!!!
So you wouldn't have Bairstow in your side then?haha
Could you name yours for the next test?
-
I've got more sympathy for the view that we'd be better giving someone younger/untested a run over Bairstow rather than the view that Bairstow adds nothing. He's got more experience and you won't ruin him by throwing him into this series, but I would much rather see Pope/Lawrence backed at 5.
-
The squad was supposed to be announced last night wasn’t it? Something’s a foot…
-
The squad was supposed to be announced last night wasn’t it? Something’s a foot…
It’s due today but you might be right. I don’t suppose it’s likely they are in touch with Ben Stokes.He is desperately missed but has to return on his terms
-
Stokes won't be back any time soon from what I understand
The media are touting a return for Vince or Malan.
Who knows.
-
I think Sibley will miss out, Burns prob still in.
So England might want some experience in that 3 position, and to take some pressure off Root at 4.
Root from his interviews wants to keep with Pope,Crawley,Lawrence but it’s what the team needs for this series.
It’s going to be Malan or Vince I think.
-
Why not add them all to the squad, try them out and see who looks best? There really shouldn’t be a need to guess who’s in the beat nick, get them all in for a middle practice :D :D
-
Article in The Times today that had Ali Cook quoted as saying “I could be tempted to return in an emergency”. 2 tests away from the Ashes and nobody reliable from 1-3…I’d say that qualifies as an emergency!
-
Sounds like an audition for Love Island :)
-
So you wouldn't have Bairstow in your side then?haha
Could you name yours for the next test?
Squad
Top 3 (tbh, I don't care which of the actual 3 you pick. I'll just back the younger ones as they may actually improve - assuming they want to and are training to!!)
Sibley
Hameed
Crawley
Burns - As spare
4- Root
5 - Malan
6 - Pope (If not Pope, then I'd put Crawley in and play Burns at 3)
7 - buttler (HOWEVER, this is only until Foakes is back.. as soon as he is.. Foakes is in)
8 - Whoever is your best Bowler who happens to be the best batter out of them
9 - as above, only second best batter
10 - Leach
11 - as above, only the worst batter (probably Anderson)
8/9/11. for me are a toss up between Broad, Anderson, Archer, Wood, Woakes depending on who is fit... If I had to pick.. I'd take Woakes at 8, Wood 9, Leach 10, Anderson 11 as it's a relative mix of bowling. Archer is broken and broad can swap in and out as required.
That's what I'd do anyway and just give the young guys time AS LONG AS THEY ARE ACTUALLY LOOKING TO IMPROVE RED BALL and not just going 'it's the way I play'.. a la Balance/Bairstow etc
-
Malan and Mahmood in, Sibley and Crawley out. Leach also out of the squad
https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/2223281 (https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/2223281)
-
Malan will bat 3 you would think. Neither Pope nor Lawrence are number 3's.
Mixed about Sibley, I know most on here wouldn't have him in. If he at least got to 30 or 40 it might of been enough.
Nevertheless Hameed is similar so probably two styles won't work. You need to give something back to the opposition.
Malan/Vince must of been a tight call
-
Surprised they didn’t give a chance to someone who hasn’t tried and failed numerous times before. I’d have been tempted to give Kent’s Jordan Cox a go, but then again, I’m obviously much braver than Silverwood.
-
They have picked Malan because he has a good international record and was good on the last Ashes tour.
Makes sense.
Also keeps the left hand right hand dynamic down the order.
-
They have picked Malan because he has a good international record and was good on the last Ashes tour.
Makes sense.
Also keeps the left hand right hand dynamic down the order.
Malan is a fair shout. Just bizarre how they aren't backing the younger players but are backing Bairstow/Curran and Moeen who have all been tried.. and realistically.. failed time and Time again
-
Not backing the younger players, Curran is only 23!
-
If we believe the announcement wi the team, they clearly think Crawley will be back and they have invested time in him so maybe that is right. He clearly has the talent and the shots.
I'm not so sure about Sibley, he might find it harder to expand his game. There is only so much time in the nets that's worth wil thou.
These players need match games and there's precious little for them to play in.
Personally I think Crawley has the game to return. It may have to be high up the order thou it's too crowded in the middle.
-
Malan is a fair shout. Just bizarre how they aren't backing the younger players but are backing Bairstow/Curran and Moeen who have all been tried.. and realistically.. failed time and Time again
You can't drop the majority of the side.
Bairstow was brought in at the start of the series so should be given the series to see what happens, otherwise what was the point in bringing him back in the 1st place.
I really feel that Curran is playing because Stokes and Woakes are unavailable. Whether you think that's right or wrong, not much choice if they feel that's the best way to balance the side. And the same could be said of Mo being picked.
Malan in for Sibley, Hameed to open is as good as anything. I just hope Hameed gets some runs, otherwise it will look really really dire.
-
What balance is Sam Curran offering? 59 runs @ 19 and 1 wicket @ 171. Literally offering nothing.
-
As @six and out says thou Jeff, no Woakes,no Stokes.Broad out, Archer won't be seen again in tests, Wood won't be risked in this match and Jimmy is set to play 3 on the bounce.
I don't think anyone on here has him ahead of any of those players.
He's going to have to play as a bowler. If you take him out and put Overton in, everyone is right arm over medium pace.
I suppose they could do that.
-
At preent in the top10 averages in the county championship only 1 player is not available to play for England. With this being the case we are theoretically in a better position than years past yet we still go the old guard time and time again.
-
CDG and Bedingham?
5/10 by total runs aren’t England qualified
-
The reality is all players fit into 1 of 4 broad categories:
1) Proven Legends. These players will likely only not be selected due to injury or rotation. If they get into a bad patch of form they're likely to be played anyway in the hope they can play themselves back into form.
Examples in Current side: Anderson, Broad, Root, Stokes
2) Quality Place Holders. These players meet the 'international player' quality line and are capable of looking like they belong but are primarily selected on form. The thing these players all have in common is that they have shown they are capable of outstanding performances, but usually are unable to reproduce this form consistently enough to be automatic picks and earn them Category 1 status. This is a much larger category than category 1 and so players are picked on form/ match conditions.
Examples in current side: Bairstow, Moeen
3) Desperate Place Holders. Players who, were there half decent alternatives that weren't considered gambles, would likely not be selected. Very much 'for now' men. Capable of quality performances but rarely look comfortable at the highest level. They show just enough to make you think that they might be Category 2 players but ultimately are unable to banish their demons.
Examples in current side: Burns
4) The un-placed. Young players who are still developing and could therefore fall into any of categories 1-3.
Our problem as a media/ support base is that we categorise people far too early. Someone scores a ton and half the media claim that someone special has been found - but that's rarely the case. It is also the reality that in a good generation half your team will be Category 1 players (think of the Strauss era), in a weaker period (now) there is a much more even spread across all categories. You can't necessarily select out of this issue and the crux is that there isn't enough CC cricket to allow us to select on form. If we're honest Malan, Vince, Lyth etc are all category 2/3 players but we can't pick them based on form because we have no idea who is actually in form! This is also why the old hats like Bairstow continuously get selected ie they've shown they are capable of producing good performances and the chances of them coming into form are considered less risky than picking a Cat 4 players - plenty of people disagree with this approach but management of risk is particular to each coach.
This manifests itself in patchy performances because if half your team are category 2/3 players, for everyone that succeeds the other fails and this advantage cancels each other out. Conversely if they all fire on the same day you think you have a team of legends and are then surprised when two matches later they all fail and you get an absolute drubbing!
-
Is Alex Less in the mix or what?
He came and played down here in NZ a few years ago and was an absolute Gun plus a fantastic human. I have followed his progress since and he seems to be batting well this season.
-
Is Alex Less in the mix or what?
He came and played down here in NZ a few years ago and was an absolute Gun plus a fantastic human. I have followed his progress since and he seems to be batting well this season.
Has been better of late but hasn't put together many really big scores to force the conversation.
-
He’s spent time out injured but in the last 2 seasons he’s been fantastic at Durham. If he has another top year next year I’d think he would be in the conversation for sure.
-
What balance is Sam Curran offering? 59 runs @ 19 and 1 wicket @ 171. Literally offering nothing.
I think that's very unfair. The Indian batsmen are loving his offerings down the leg side at gentle medium pace!
-
As @six and out says thou Jeff, no Woakes,no Stokes.Broad out, Archer won't be seen again in tests, Wood won't be risked in this match and Jimmy is set to play 3 on the bounce.
I don't think anyone on here has him ahead of any of those players.
He's going to have to play as a bowler. If you take him out and put Overton in, everyone is right arm over medium pace.
I suppose they could do that.
Just to your last point, I’d absolutely rather that all our bowlers were right arm medium pacemen as opposed to our “point of difference” bowling left arm throw downs from 3ft 1 at 78mph. As others have alluded to, he averages 36 with the ball and 25 with the bat. It’s dire.
-
Not backing the younger players, Curran is only 23!
but he is not good enough with the ball
not good enough with the bat
I mean, quite literally the only positives ever said are 'he can hit a few balls' 'he's variation' 'he's really aggressive'. is that really the quality of player that should be even considered a test player
-
but he is not good enough with the ball
not good enough with the bat
I mean, quite literally the only positives ever said are 'he can hit a few balls' 'he's variation' 'he's really aggressive'. is that really the quality of player that should be even considered a test player
He's certainly a luxury player in this side that they probably can't afford just now. There's a good Wisden article about why his stats, in part, reflect the role he has been asked to do by England of "making things happen".
With so many big players missing I would personally rather see Overton in to improve the consistency and reliability of the bowling and lower order batting, but I can see why Curran shouldn't be totally dismissed.
-
The reality is all players fit into 1 of 4 broad categories:
1) Proven Legends. These players will likely only not be selected due to injury or rotation. If they get into a bad patch of form they're likely to be played anyway in the hope they can play themselves back into form.
Examples in Current side: Anderson, Broad, Root, Stokes
2) Quality Place Holders. These players meet the 'international player' quality line and are capable of looking like they belong but are primarily selected on form. The thing these players all have in common is that they have shown they are capable of outstanding performances, but usually are unable to reproduce this form consistently enough to be automatic picks and earn them Category 1 status. This is a much larger category than category 1 and so players are picked on form/ match conditions.
Examples in current side: Bairstow, Moeen
3) Desperate Place Holders. Players who, were there half decent alternatives that weren't considered gambles, would likely not be selected. Very much 'for now' men. Capable of quality performances but rarely look comfortable at the highest level. They show just enough to make you think that they might be Category 2 players but ultimately are unable to banish their demons.
Examples in current side: Burns
4) The un-placed. Young players who are still developing and could therefore fall into any of categories 1-3.
Our problem as a media/ support base is that we categorise people far too early. Someone scores a ton and half the media claim that someone special has been found - but that's rarely the case. It is also the reality that in a good generation half your team will be Category 1 players (think of the Strauss era), in a weaker period (now) there is a much more even spread across all categories. You can't necessarily select out of this issue and the crux is that there isn't enough CC cricket to allow us to select on form. If we're honest Malan, Vince, Lyth etc are all category 2/3 players but we can't pick them based on form because we have no idea who is actually in form! This is also why the old hats like Bairstow continuously get selected ie they've shown they are capable of producing good performances and the chances of them coming into form are considered less risky than picking a Cat 4 players - plenty of people disagree with this approach but management of risk is particular to each coach.
This manifests itself in patchy performances because if half your team are category 2/3 players, for everyone that succeeds the other fails and this advantage cancels each other out. Conversely if they all fire on the same day you think you have a team of legends and are then surprised when two matches later they all fail and you get an absolute drubbing!
Moeen and Bairstow (add in Buttler) wouldn't get close to the Strauss era cat 1 .... Again, over rating Moeen and Bairstow
-
if they all fire on the same day you think you have a team of legends and are then surprised when two matches later they all fail and you get an absolute drubbing!
This is quite literally what it's like reading this forum though and listening to the media. No one is literally being realistic or brutally honest about these players.
Bairstow - I'm sure he is 'in the best' top 7 we have currently.. HOWEVER, stop saying he deserves his spot etc et.c. just call it out as being utterly dire and we are desperate for a replacement. Not as soon as he has half a decent game start claiming he's test class again etc etc (insert Moeen/Butter/Curran (lets not forget how wildly in love people are with him because he had ONE good series a Long while ago).
I don't REALLY care if Bairstow plays or not btw, this side is so poor. It's more that people aren't be honest about these players quality (or lack of) and then when they happen to have a good one suddenly they are great again rather than 'He's just produced a freak knock, well played lad'.. very diifferent to 'oh how great is he, he can bat 3 woooooooo'
-
I think a lot of people here would be less aggravated if they accept the following:
1. The squad is most likely the best red ball cricketers you have available, with some bowlers (Curran) the possible exceptions
2. Best available doesn’t mean ‘quality’
3. It also means that as much as you’d love to, you can’t ignore the likes of JB, Moeen,Malan, Vince etc.
4. The above are white ball cricketers, but the ECB had prioritized white ball cricket to such an extent, that these white ball specialists are also your best red ball cricketers.
5. There is no “young talent” smashing the door down - you’ve already picked your best youth (Pope etc)
6. The team is very weak and ‘should’ lose more often than not - you are the underdogs; best to embrace it and enjoy the one off successes while being totally fine with all the losses.
-
I think a lot of people here would be less aggravated if they accept the following:
1. The squad is most likely the best red ball cricketers you have available, with some bowlers (Curran) the possible exceptions
2. Best available doesn’t mean ‘quality’
3. It also means that as much as you’d love to, you can’t ignore the likes of JB, Moeen,Malan, Vince etc.
4. The above are white ball cricketers, but the ECB had prioritized white ball cricket to such an extent, that these white ball specialists are also your best red ball cricketers.
5. There is no “young talent” smashing the door down - you’ve already picked your best youth (Pope etc)
6. The team is very weak and ‘should’ lose more often than not - you are the underdogs; best to embrace it and enjoy the one off successes while being totally fine with all the losses.
You're right. Most of us on here I think know the side is in transition and we have tried to get younger batsmen in the team, that hasn't worked well up till now but you have to invest in youth at some point and hope they are good enough-they are the best players we have.
Losing against the best team in the world and the second best is not a disaster, what some of us maybe are realising thou is Root is doing the job with one hand behind his back and seemingly without support of the management.
After the last test they should of come out and backed Root when he needed it,we know he is not a good Captain and needs Stokes on the field.
Silverwood and Giles are not upto the job and that may cause more damage than a few lost test matches.
Personally I think that is a bigger problem than the team currently.
-
If you’re a bowler with an unorthodox technique you can still thrive in international cricket. I don’t think the same can be said for batting. Sure there’s the exception of Steve Smith, who has an amazing eye, and still gets in to good positions in his own way, but others are few and far between. The problem with England’s batting is that we have SO many players with techniques that you wouldn’t coach. In the first test you could argue that 5 out of the top 7 had unorthodox techniques, some which may work in white ball, but don’t in the longer form, especially when they make the jump from domestic to international.
When you only have Root and Crawley batting in an orthodox fashion, and Burns, Sibley, Bairstow, Lawrence and Buttler batting in their own, individual styles, I question whether any input from the England batting coaches will do more harm than good.
-
I think a lot of people here would be less aggravated if they accept the following:
1. The squad is most likely the best red ball cricketers you have available, with some bowlers (Curran) the possible exceptions
2. Best available doesn’t mean ‘quality’
3. It also means that as much as you’d love to, you can’t ignore the likes of JB, Moeen,Malan, Vince etc.
4. The above are white ball cricketers, but the ECB had prioritized white ball cricket to such an extent, that these white ball specialists are also your best red ball cricketers.
5. There is no “young talent” smashing the door down - you’ve already picked your best youth (Pope etc)
6. The team is very weak and ‘should’ lose more often than not - you are the underdogs; best to embrace it and enjoy the one off successes while being totally fine with all the losses.
See, I agree but it seems most here don't. They actually think these guys are any good and after a random knock suddenly these guys are test quality and awesome (Bairstow in the last test does very very 'OK' and suddenly he's great again as an example).. Curran might biff a few like he did in the series vs India before he's the next Botham.. etc etc
Nothing wrong with having a weak side, in fact.. it makes no odds either way.. What's annoying is most here and the media BS these guys up and seem to not accept they aren't actually any good
-
I know we are all being a bit doom and gloom, but I think it is just going to take a while for this new generation to mature and season into the players we hope they will be. Crawley is 23, Hameed is 24, Pope is 23, Sibley is 25, Lawrence is 24, Dom Bess is 24. They have plenty of time to come good. Obviously, we want that to be sooner rather than later, but even if just two of them turn into top-class players, they will help ensure the success and stability of the side in the future. I think there is plenty of talent in that cohort. Players like Sam Hain and so on aren't far away either.
I don't think we will see a truly strong England test side for a while. In some ways, Anderson and Broad's departure coming sooner than later might speed up the development process of our younger bowlers, but I don't see how we will be winning series against top sides regularly. Soon the band-aid of Broad and Anderson will be ripped off, and then things really will be weird for England fans.
I have a lot of sympathy for players like Woakes and Foakes who just haven't had the careers they arguably should have had in the test side.
-
Wood ruled out. Another seamer, who knew.
Hope we get to see Mahmood play
-
Wood ruled out. Another seamer, who knew.
Hope we get to see Mahmood play
I bet it will be Overton.
-
Could be both unless Curran leads the attack, which is a contradiction in terms :)
-
Surely they need the all round talents of a certain Darren Stevens! What they need is a matchwinner!
-
Seems like the team for the third test is as following:
Burns
Hameed
Malan
Root (c)
Bairstow
Buttler (w/k)
Moeen
Robinson
Overton
Mahmood
Anderson
Think Overton as fourth seamer adds more bite to the bowling
-
Seems like the team for the third test is as following:
Burns
Hameed
Malan
Root (c)
Bairstow
Buttler (w/k)
Moeen
Robinson
Overton
Mahmood
Anderson
Think Overton as fourth seamer adds more bite to the bowling
An average of 45 and a strike rate of 79 indicates otherwise. Take out his debut and his average would be 60, and strike rate just shy of 100.
-
An average of 45 and a strike rate of 79 indicates otherwise. Take out his debut and his average would be 60, and strike rate just shy of 100.
Give him a chance...
Curran is 1-171 in the series
-
Overton's record has significantly improved since his last Test appearances. Worth mentioning as well that most of the good judges of CC cricket seem to think he is now bowling quicker without sacrificing his accuracy, movement or bounce. Look at his bowling average the last couple of seasons and it suggests a much improved bowler.
-
Its sad to see Anderson crying in the media about Bumrah's bouncer barrage! Surely it doesnt suit someone like him.
-
I know we are all being a bit doom and gloom, but I think it is just going to take a while for this new generation to mature and season into the players we hope they will be. Crawley is 23, Hameed is 24, Pope is 23, Sibley is 25, Lawrence is 24, Dom Bess is 24. They have plenty of time to come good. Obviously, we want that to be sooner rather than later, but even if just two of them turn into top-class players, they will help ensure the success and stability of the side in the future. I think there is plenty of talent in that cohort. Players like Sam Hain and so on aren't far away either.
This is an interesting point. Of India's top 7 recognised batsmen (I've excluded Shami and Bumrah!) 5 are 32-34 years old and Pant is the youngest by some way at 23.
Pant aside, they all made their debuts an average of around 9 years ago. Which would put them around the same age as the English batsmen that billyb has identified.
Is it the case that that 9 years of test experience that the Indians have is a critical advantage? If levels of pure batting technique are equal regardless of age, is this extra experience enabling greater calmness at the crease, fewer nerves, and better shot selection?
-
Its sad to see Anderson crying in the media about Bumrah's bouncer barrage! Surely it doesnt suit someone like him.
I’ve no issues with bouncing the crap out of tailenders. I’m a little skeptical to none of the no balls being deliberate. If they were that’s out of order for me.
-
Overton's record has significantly improved since his last Test appearances. Worth mentioning as well that most of the good judges of CC cricket seem to think he is now bowling quicker without sacrificing his accuracy, movement or bounce. Look at his bowling average the last couple of seasons and it suggests a much improved bowler.
Don't think selectors bother watching CC, just go by reputation 😂
-
Don't think selectors bother watching CC, just go by reputation 😂
@SwingAndMiss
Sounds very true!
-
Don't think it's a bad toss to lose, not surprised to see Overton over Mahmood either...
-
Curran retained beggars belief
-
Curran retained beggars belief
Suppose they want a bit more variation in their attack but you do have to wonder if it's doing him more harm than good.
-
would have gone saqib for curran, other than that i dont think they have many better options
-
Yes lack of options for England and some variation.
If it’s swinging conditions he still could play a part
-
England pick selectively forgetful racist at Headingley.
Nice T-shirts though, guys.
-
Jimmy's just too good
-
Don’t let any old timers…of which I am one…tell any different
We’ve never had anyone better
-
big call to bat first at headingley, both bowlers are right on the money though
-
Just a bit of movement which is helping us, Not suggesting Curran should be on but he can get it back in to the right handers….in between some through downs :)
-
Even Curran is looking threatening in these conditions! Wonder why Kohli chose to bat first?
-
Jimmy that is an absolute beauty
-
Difficult call for Kholi, pretty dry, good forecast, clear day for batting.
But there is a bit of movement.
-
Would have preferred to see Mahmood as the fourth seamer rather then Overton. Overton seems a rather safety first call given he is less likely to go for runs and is a better fielder and batsman but not really what is needed in a Test England have to win.
-
Robbboooooooooooooooo
-
We’re in dreamland here but we do have to bat so perhaps not time to get too excited
-
Curran! Blimey :)
-
India with a great impression of England
-
now the part we've all been dreading, England batting
-
Please don't mess this up
-
India batting again before stumps?
-
We will have casualties here but India did play some bad shots
-
Kudos to the English bowlers for sticking to a plan and bowling in a disciplined manner, lead by Jimmy the GOAT! Very interested to see how England fare on this pitch now.
-
Saw real Indian batting skills today. If not for Shami Bumrah magic in one session, 2nd test was England's for the taking. 1st test could have gone either way. And to think that these games are 2nd string Eng vs full strength Ind side or really 2 Eng players vs full strength Ind side.
Can see why 4-0 prediction for Eng was not a far away call.
-
Saw real Indian batting skills today.
Let's wait till both sides have batted on the same pitch. This is Test cricket and it is called so for a reason. :)
-
Holy f£)£ .. what happened ???
-
Lots of respect for Hameed - looked like he will get out any second, but he is fighting hard, and using his mind to overcome whatever flaws have crept into his game.
-
Looks like he has added some square of the wicket shots, he was always ok off his pads
Early days but promising
-
It's very refreshing to see England's openers punishing the crap balls in between keeping the good ones out.
-
What a comeback from Eng after all the drama of the 2nd Test. And Root hasn't even batted yet!
-
It's very refreshing to see England's openers punishing the crap balls in between keeping the good ones out.
Hameed has some good offside shots, it could be Burns might play better with the scoreboard moving.
I do like Sibley but it’s pressure off if your partner can put those bad balls away as you say.
-
Hameed has some good offside shots, it could be Burns might play better with the scoreboard moving.
I do like Sibley but it’s pressure off if your partner can put those bad balls away as you say.
Agree, having a positive partner at other end definitely helps. With Sibley, Burns is left to fend for himself to relieve any pressure, makes huge diff IMO.
-
Sibley causes more problems than he solves. Unless he can improve his attacking intent he shouldn’t be anywhere near the England side again.
-
Sibley causes more problems than he solves. Unless he can improve his attacking intent he shouldn’t be anywhere near the England side again.
I think England still want Crawley and Pope and Lawrence to come thru. With the younger batsmen, to me anyway, Crawley and Pope look to be the most talented, Lawrence also.
Sibley is much harder to gauge as he has crease occupation but not much else.you would think it would be harder for him to develop a more attacking game than the others....
You never know thou, but agree you need an option when it's tight bowling on difficult wickets. Hameed seems to have developed some shots.
And that may take the pressure of Burns a bit. England have shown they are sticking with players these days, there might not be a route back easily for Sibley.
Malan is a good player, same with him, he will get the chances I reckon, 33 is not too old and even if he is 35 does it really matter...
-
I think England still want Crawley and Pope and Lawrence to come thru. With the younger batsmen, to me anyway, Crawley and Pope look to be the most talented, Lawrence also.
Sibley is much harder to gauge as he has crease occupation but not much else.you would think it would be harder for him to develop a more attacking game than the others....
You never know thou, but agree you need an option when it's tight bowling on difficult wickets. Hameed seems to have developed some shots.
And that may take the pressure of Burns a bit. England have shown they are sticking with players these days, there might not be a route back easily for Sibley.
Malan is a good player, same with him, he will get the chances I reckon, 33 is not too old and even if he is 35 does it really matter...
Crawley and Pope will come back stronger (hopefully). I don’t really see what Lawrence brings to the side other than a poor technique and interesting ways he finds to get himself out.
-
Hameed has some good offside shots, it could be Burns might play better with the scoreboard moving.
I do like Sibley but it’s pressure off if your partner can put those bad balls away as you say.
I heard a stat recently about Burns - if he gets to 1 (eg doesn't get a duck) he averages 50+
-
I heard a stat recently about Burns - if he gets to 1 (eg doesn't get a duck) he averages 50+
54 I believe it was.
-
Hameed has gone into a Sibley-like shell here,just 3 off his last 50 balls.
-
Shame he got so bogged down
Love that overthrow from Siraj, toys out of the pram stuff.
-
Yes but a good start from both openers, Burns seemed to play well with something coming from his partner.
On the face of it Hameed is a natural opener so the hard ball suits his style.
It’s early days of course after a lot of changes but looks much better than with Sibley there.
Malan with experience and decent shots could slot in nicely
-
India reverting to type - losing the plot when it’s cold and swinging. England will win this series 2-1 now.
-
That back foot punch from Root is nothing short of glorious
-
50 up for Malan. Not bad for a player who can only score off the back foot. Abroad.
:)
-
50 up for Malan. Not bad for a player who can only score off the back foot. Abroad.
:)
Love to see it, he's batted really nicely and justifying his selection brilliantly.
-
is Bairstow not a good enough keeper? He’s the second or third best (after malan) batter - why not replace Butler with Pope and have JB keep?
-
is Bairstow not a good enough keeper? He’s the second or third best (after malan) batter - why not replace Butler with Pope and have JB keep?
That’s been a hot topic on here. :). I think England do want one of the youngsters back, Pope,Crawley or Lawrence.
Jos Butler plans to miss the Ashes so things could change
-
Is Pope going to add more with the bat than Buttler at the moment?
-
#TapeGate
-
is Bairstow not a good enough keeper? He’s the second or third best (after malan) batter - why not replace Butler with Pope and have JB keep?
@Manormanic might have a heart attack but IF.. IF we really can't have Foakes (preferred choice!).. then I'd take Bairstow over Buttler as Wk Batsmen any day.
-
Good old Jonny can’t even contribute when the opponents are dead and buried. How he’s stolen 70+ test caps is baffling
-
Please god don't let them throw this away now...
-
Good old Jonny can’t even contribute when the opponents are dead and buried. How he’s stolen 70+ test caps is baffling
Jesus.. I'm defending Bairstow...
Given numbers 1/2/3 and 4 scored really well... It is 'allowed' for 1/2 of the top 7 to fail... kinda expected right?!?!?!
really pleased to see Burns, Hameed, Malan and Root all scoring runs though. India have thrown the game away with their 1st inns batting for sure but still.. England are at least not repeating it which is good to see.
It is a long tail though with Moeen at 7
-
Please god don't let them throw this away now...
Do you think there is even a possibility to throw away from here. Even if Eng lose all remaining wickets for 0 runs, Eng will win with days left.
-
Do you think there is even a possibility to throw away from here. Even if Eng lose all remaining wickets for 0 runs, Eng will win with days left.
yeah, anyone thinking England can lose is just being dumb. India are purely fighting to draw which in reality is take the game as deep as possible and on the 5th day, hope you have 10 wickets to bat it out.
England can't lose.. .it's purely about 'can they win' or will they limp over the line. The game now will only be interesting come the 5th day
-
Do you think there is even a possibility to throw away from here. Even if Eng lose all remaining wickets for 0 runs, Eng will win with days left.
Years of accumulated paranoia showing 😂
-
Years of accumulated paranoia showing 😂
:D Even a draw is out of contemplation. This is just 2nd day and lead is 300+. Once Anderson has ball in hand, the pitch will flip to swinging wicket again :) Only question that remains is can India take game into 4th day - a possibility if Eng decide to bat until tea or later tomorrow.
-
Good ball that. Brilliant innings.
-
Odds on India to get 550 with King Kohli getting a double and Pant smashing 150,then skittling us for 175 on the last day?
-
Oh come on Mo
-
Odds on India to get 550 with King Kohli getting a double and Pant smashing 150,then skittling us for 175 on the last day?
:D :D
-
One of cricket's mysteries at all levels...why are solid performances by the top order often followed by middle/lower order collapses?
-
India is all smiles - one would think they’re the ones winning.
-
One of cricket's mysteries at all levels...why are solid performances by the top order often followed by middle/lower order collapses?
Yes, happens a lot, after a big partnership is broken, usually another wicket falls quickly. Maybe waiting so long in dressing room for your turn to bat has some effect on the body/mind.
-
India is all smiles - one would think they’re the ones winning.
Maybe they think having a go at Anderson when he comes to bat will do it as it did in previous test :D
-
Maybe they think having a go at Anderson when he comes to bat will do it as it did in previous test :D
England should declare by the time Anderson comes in to bat!
No need to put him in any physical or mental harm!
-
Maybe they think having a go at Anderson when he comes to bat will do it as it did in previous test :D
Not sure how much mileage there was in deliberately overstepping to intimidate a batsman who poses not threat at all but I cannot remember such a short period before when momentum shifted so quickly.
I thought it would be England demoralised after Lords.
India actually look cooked to me. I can understand getting rolled over in seaming conditions but their bowling is all over the shop.
Maybe they have written this test off already?
-
Not sure if we know that the overstepping was deliberate. Also, when did overstepping become a way to intimidate a batsman? Bowling team gets penalized via no ball, so only bowling team's to lose.
As far as bouncer to bowlers, there is no such rule and all teams do it, so don't see issue there either unless Bumrah was only one in whole world to employ it.
Agree on Ind bowling quality (lack of) though. Harmison explained possible reason for this below but not sure how much of it is really the cause.
https://www.espncricinfo.com/video/eng-vs-ind-2021-3rd-test-headingley-steve-harmison-explains-why-it-can-be-tricky-to-bowl-at-he-1274802 (https://www.espncricinfo.com/video/eng-vs-ind-2021-3rd-test-headingley-steve-harmison-explains-why-it-can-be-tricky-to-bowl-at-he-1274802)
-
Bouncers ok, deliberate no balls when bowling bouncers not ok.
Otherwise what to stop some quick pinging a bumper at a tailender from 16 yards aka nets. Or if you take it extremes then something just throwing one at a batsman? One runs not much of a penalty for that 🤷
-
it is surely time that Buttler is put out to Test pasture?
-
Deliberately bowling No balls is Cheating!
-
Not sure if we know that the overstepping was deliberate. Also, when did overstepping become a way to intimidate a batsman? Bowling team gets penalized via no ball, so only bowling team's to lose.
As far as bouncer to bowlers, there is no such rule and all teams do it, so don't see issue there either unless Bumrah was only one in whole world to employ it.
Agree on Ind bowling quality (lack of) though. Harmison explained possible reason for this below but not sure how much of it is really the cause.
https://www.espncricinfo.com/video/eng-vs-ind-2021-3rd-test-headingley-steve-harmison-explains-why-it-can-be-tricky-to-bowl-at-he-1274802 (https://www.espncricinfo.com/video/eng-vs-ind-2021-3rd-test-headingley-steve-harmison-explains-why-it-can-be-tricky-to-bowl-at-he-1274802)
Actually bud, there is a rule that a bowler cannot deliberately attempt to intimidate a batsman by bowling short if the batsman is not very good. The umpire must consider the bowling speed and the batters ability and make a determination as to whether the bowler is attempting to deliberately intimidate or injure.
Given that bumrah only bowled 2 no balls in the entire innings, I suspect bowling 4 in an over wasn’t accidental.
-
Bouncers ok, deliberate no balls when bowling bouncers not ok.
Otherwise what to stop some quick pinging a bumper at a tailender from 16 yards aka nets. Or if you take it extremes then something just throwing one at a batsman? One runs not much of a penalty for that 🤷
That's the point. Bumrah didn't overstep and bowl from 16 yards, in which case umpire would have determined it as deliberate and removed him from attack.
-
Actually bud, there is a rule that a bowler cannot deliberately attempt to intimidate a batsman by bowling short if the batsman is not very good. The umpire must consider the bowling speed and the batters ability and make a determination as to whether the bowler is attempting to deliberately intimidate or injure.
Given that bumrah only bowled 2 no balls in the entire innings, I suspect bowling 4 in an over wasn’t accidental.
I don't get the "deliberately attempt to intimidate" part. How do we know the bowling short was to intimidate in this case? Why is it that when Wood bowls a short ball at a tailender, it is to take a wicket by exploiting a weakness but when Bumrah does same, it is to intimidate? Why wasn't it bowling to exploit a weakness in short pitch bowling and take a wicket? What is different here versus all the short balls everyone else bowled against a tailender?
-
Actually bud, there is a rule that a bowler cannot deliberately attempt to intimidate a batsman by bowling short if the batsman is not very good.
Would like to see reference for such a rule which takes batsman's skill into account - can't see how it can be enforceable. If a debutant comes into crease and during first ball (when no one knows what skill the batsman has), how will bowler know the batsman's ability before deciding whether the short ball can be bowled or not? If there is a good batsman but is woefully out of form that short ball could injure him, is bowler allowed to bowl short in that case? Also a batsman can be very good batsman for fuller balls but very bad with short ball that he could get injured with it - is bowler allowed to bowl short in this case? So many cases come into play with such a rule that the rule falls apart.
The umpire must consider the bowling speed and the batters ability and make a determination as to whether the bowler is attempting to deliberately intimidate or injure.
It we are all sure it was deliberate, why didn't the umpire make a determination that it was deliberate in this case? Surely they have all the 360 degrees cameras and replays that they can use to find out if they wanted to.
Given that Bumrah only bowled 2 no balls in the entire innings, I suspect bowling 4 in an over wasn�t accidental.
Maybe it was deliberate. Maybe the heat of the moment could have caused it. Maybe trying to bowl too fast could have caused it. Thing is we don't know for sure to conclude it is deliberate and umpire didn't deem it deliberate either.
Also there is no stat that says one would spread out the no balls evenly throughout the game.
-
Would like to see reference for such a rule which takes batsman's skill into account - can't see how it can be enforceable. If a debutant comes into crease and during first ball (when no one knows what skill the batsman has), how will bowler know the batsman's ability before deciding whether the short ball can be bowled or not? If there is a good batsman but is woefully out of form that short ball could injure him, is bowler allowed to bowl short in that case? Also a batsman can be very good batsman for fuller balls but very bad with short ball that he could get injured with it - is bowler allowed to bowl short in this case? So many cases come into play with such a rule that the rule falls apart.
It we are all sure it was deliberate, why didn't the umpire make a determination that it was deliberate in this case? Surely they have all the 360 degrees cameras and replays that they can use to find out if they wanted to.
Maybe it was deliberate. Maybe the heat of the moment could have caused it. Maybe trying to bowl too fast could have caused it. Thing is we don't know for sure to conclude it is deliberate and umpire didn't deem it deliberate either.
Also there is no stat that says one would spread out the no balls evenly throughout the game.
41.6 Bowling of dangerous and unfair short pitched deliveries
https://www.lords.org/mcc/the-laws-of-cricket/unfair-play (https://www.lords.org/mcc/the-laws-of-cricket/unfair-play)
-
You're a test match player.. deal with short pitched balls.. If you can't, then you'll get hit. If we keep going down the dumbing down of the game like white ball has then the skill levels will keep dropping as players will not need to be able to deal with the different situations/balls etc
-
That's the point. Bumrah didn't overstep and bowl from 16 yards, in which case umpire would have determined it as deliberate and removed him from attack.
One of them wasn’t far away!
-
You're a test match player.. deal with short pitched balls.. If you can't, then you'll get hit. If we keep going down the dumbing down of the game like white ball has then the skill levels will keep dropping as players will not need to be able to deal with the different situations/balls etc
Agreed
-
You're a test match player.. deal with short pitched balls.. If you can't, then you'll get hit. If we keep going down the dumbing down of the game like white ball has then the skill levels will keep dropping as players will not need to be able to deal with the different situations/balls etc
Well said.
-
Great catch from YJB! What a fine test cricketer he is.
-
What a magnificent catch, JB!
-
41.6 Bowling of dangerous and unfair short pitched deliveries
https://www.lords.org/mcc/the-laws-of-cricket/unfair-play (https://www.lords.org/mcc/the-laws-of-cricket/unfair-play)
Thanks for the link, copying the relevant part here for easy reference:
41.6.1 The bowling of short pitched deliveries is dangerous if the bowler’s end umpire considers that, taking into consideration the skill of the striker, by their speed, length, height and direction they are likely to inflict physical injury on him/her. The fact that the striker is wearing protective equipment shall be disregarded.
Now I am wondering if this has ever been invoked when tailenders have been injured to short pitched bowling. One extreme case I can think of was when Broad got hit on the face and ended up with broken nose. Was bowler no balled then? Also does umpire inform the bowler beforehand about skill of batter so bowler could decide if short ball could be bowled or not, as bowler could argue he/she is unaware of batters skill.
-
You'd imagine if a bowler was repeatedly hitting a tailender in the helmet or around the head and the batsman was getting absolutely nowhere near it there might be cause to remind the bowler of the rule.
-
You'd imagine if a bowler was repeatedly hitting a tailender in the helmet or around the head and the batsman was getting absolutely nowhere near it there might be cause to remind the bowler of the rule.
Makes sense. Has any umpire ever given such a reminder to bowler in intl cricket?
-
Encouraging to see Rohit Sharma using a half heartwood bat, one which GM would grade as 808 I guess.
-
Never thought we’d see pujara striking at twice the rate as rohit sharma
-
Never thought we’d see pujara striking at twice the rate as rohit sharma
Pujara can go at 1 per 100 balls if he likes.. they aint winning so just eat up time. runs are irrelevant now
-
Nice day here at Headingley. Still miles ahead of the game
-
I wouldn't discount team India just yet, they have a solid batting line up. They would want to bat out days 3 & 4 to hold on to the series lead. Team England and bowlers capitalized on a great window of opportunity with the pitch but now this is a batting pitch.
As of now, this match hangs in balance. A good showing with the bat will tilt the match in favor of team India.
-
That Rohit Sharma dismissal is exactly what is all wrong with the DRS system! Wasnt there a rule update which said that more than 50% of the ball has to hit for a decision to be upheld?
-
That Rohit Sharma dismissal is exactly what is all wrong with the DRS system! Wasnt there a rule update which said that more than 50% of the ball has to hit for a decision to be upheld?
The rule is that more than 50% needed to overturn. To uphold, even hint of touch is enough.
-
That Rohit Sharma dismissal is exactly what is all wrong with the DRS system! Wasnt there a rule update which said that more than 50% of the ball has to hit for a decision to be upheld?
was the same with Hameed's dismissal in the second innings at Lords - both just didn't look right but just clipping seems to be enough in the laws of DRS :(
-
I don’t understand Root’s tactics. Anderson seemed off or hurt himself. Yet Root keeps bowling him into the ground.
Robinson and Overton need to work on their fitness seemed down on pace today.
-
#TapeGate
Did anyone else think Pants glove/finger strapping, contravene the rules?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51004684792_3bb0ce8932_c.jpg)
Called it, back when they played India away in March.
-
That was some innings from Pujara. Obviously thought f*ck it i'm on my last legs and played accordingly. Looked a different player.
-
I have a horrible feeling about this…
-
Big day today I still fancy us with so much time left.
Real quality thou from the Indian batsmen.
This match is our chance and we need to make breakthrough before lunch
-
Big day today I still fancy us with so much time left.
Real quality thou from the Indian batsmen.
This match is our chance and we need to make breakthrough before lunch
We should win, but given England’s recent history of letting sides off the hook, I wouldn’t be surprised to see India enter day five with a lead of 200. Big morning session. We need to get rid of these two, and also get rid of Pant ASAP too.
-
One wicket away from an innings win
-
We should win, but given England’s recent history of letting sides off the hook, I wouldn’t be surprised to see India enter day five with a lead of 200. Big morning session. We need to get rid of these two, and also get rid of Pant ASAP too.
Players think the same way, putting a lot of extra pressure on the bowling.
Jeffrey Bowcott said Test cricket is about playing session by session!
Michael Vaughan said yesterday, England should be patient, wickets will come with the new ball today! I'm very hopeful for England victory.
-
Have to say I'm mightily Impressed by Ollie Robinson. Tall, accurate and moves the ball, always asking questions of the batter. Everyone bangs on about bowling speeds but look at the likes of Philander,he was medium pace but had a brilliant test career.
-
Brilliant from Anderson and Robinson this morning. Again, the idea that we'd even be set something to chase is a bit much
-
Bunnies being lined up
-
Have to say I'm mightily Impressed by Ollie Robinson. Tall, accurate and moves the ball, always asking questions of the batter. Everyone bangs on about bowling speeds but look at the likes of Philander,he was medium pace but had a brilliant test career.
Even as a bit of a Robinson evangelist, I'm surprised how well he has made the step up to test cricket.
-
Yes he’s looked good from day 1 and carried it on. Very impressive.
Good win for us but India fought back yesterday well.
I still don’t think there is much between the sides myself
You do wonder if there will be a clamour to get Ashwin back in for them. With over 400 wickets it’s a tough call leaving him out.
-
Yes he’s looked good from day 1 and carried it on. Very impressive.
Good win for us but India fought back yesterday well.
I still don’t think there is much between the sides myself
You do wonder if there will be a clamour to get Ashwin back in for them. With over 400 wickets it’s a tough call leaving him out.
England are better team and have the momentum with them, England will win next Test despite any changes in Indian team!
-
My changes for the next test:
1) Buttler out (disguised as a rest to save embarrassment) with YJB taking gloves until Foakes is fit, Pope in for Buttler.
2) Curran out with either Woakes or Mahmood in depending on match fitness - probably the latter.
-
On what grounds can we pick Pope, he’s hasn’t played a red ball game in ages and his form in the RL has been terrible.
-
My changes for the next test:
1) Buttler out (disguised as a rest to save embarrassment) with YJB taking gloves until Foakes is fit, Pope in for Buttler.
2) Curran out with either Woakes or Mahmood in depending on match fitness - probably the latter.
Don't change winning team!
No need for any changes!
-
I read today that Buttler is expected to miss the last two tests due to paternity leave, though I would have been minded to drop him anyway.
Whilst I chuckled at @ProCricketer1982 suggesting Bairstow get the gloves back, there is part of me that says he should be left alone to prove or disprove his worth in the side as a batsman if Foakes is the long term option, especially as neither Pope nor Lawrence has shown any real form. Realise that this queues up a long debate about our next best keeper, but personally I'd quite like to see someone given a couple of games for the experience - maybe Jamie Smith, or Alex Davies.
-
On what grounds can we pick Pope, he’s hasn’t played a red ball game in ages and his form in the RL has been terrible.
I mean, it's his home ground where he's used to scoring runs domestically.
Sounds like Bairstow is taking the gloves for the rest of the series. Shame that Foakes isn't fit, as Jonny's slip catching this match was brilliant
-
I mean, it's his home ground where he's used to scoring runs domestically.
Sounds like Bairstow is taking the gloves for the rest of the series. Shame that Foakes isn't fit, as Jonny's slip catching this match was brilliant
Or not scoring runs domestically in recent times…
-
Lawrence in for Buttler?
-
Lawrence has been released for County Championship games for Essex
-
Lawrence has been released for County Championship games for Essex
So they're going to play an extra bowler/all-rounder?
-
BBC has Pope and Lawrence both in squad. 2 hours ago.
-
Woakes also fit, perhaps not a favourite to play as he had no cricket at all but an option for England.
With Malan back in the team and adding experience, Pope, Crawley and Lawrence may be playing for one spot in the near future.
Head says Pope has the most potential but it’s not clear cut with the younger batsmen.
-
Lawrence in for Butler and Wood in for Curran for me (assuming that Anderson is fine to play to back tests).
Not sure what Pope has done to deserve a recall to the squad at this stage. Certainly falls into the James Vince category of player that you would love to make it as they are so good to watch, but so far has come up short. Would have preferred to have seen Livingstone as a guy playing with confidence
-
With Malan back in the team and adding experience, Pope, Crawley and Lawrence may be playing for one spot in the near future.
Which spot?
-
Not sure what Pope has done to deserve a recall to the squad at this stage.
Pope was released to play for Surrey in the Royal London. The fact that Surrey's championship game has been cancelled might be a factor in having him around again. It's at the Oval too. Might as well!
-
Pope was released to play for Surrey in the Royal London. The fact that Surrey's championship game has been cancelled might be a factor in having him around again. It's at the Oval too. Might as well!
When you have a top score of 34 in your last 15 test innings, it suggests to me that he has some work to do on his game. Not sure being thrown in against a very good seam attack is the best thing at this stage and there are people who have done more to get that chance at this moment in time
-
Lawrence has been released for County Championship games for Essex
Correct!
-
Anderson or Robinson poss to miss out under the managing workloads banner.
I think should that be right I’d def have Woakes in the team in place of Curran.
England clearly like Curran but he has not really done enough for me, on bowling alone Woakes is the better player.
With batting coverage Woakes and Ali lower down, those tipped Pope may be right-he averages over 100 at the Oval-to bat 5
-
Burns has been made vice captain for the rest of the series. It may well be that Jimmy sits out this game so he can play (possibly his last game for England at Old Trafford)
Team will be
Burns
Hameed
Malan
Rooooooooooooot
Pope (probably, but could be Lawrence not sure)
Bairstow (wkt)
Mo
Woakes
Overton
Robinson
Wood
Curran needs to play some county cricket.
-
Burns has been made vice captain for the rest of the series. It may well be that Jimmy sits out this game so he can play (possibly his last game for England at Old Trafford)
Team will be
Burns
Hameed
Malan
Rooooooooooooot
Pope (probably, but could be Lawrence not sure)
Bairstow (wkt)
Mo
Woakes
Overton
Robinson
Wood
Curran needs to never play test cricket again.
Fixed that for you :)
-
I’m a Woakes fan but if the team is right we have 5 bowlers and no tail. I just think we are stronger with him in.
-
Like the team, but would leave Bairstow at five if we bat.
-
Humm seems the telegraph was wrong and Moeen is the new VC.
Edit
I should add this is something I am very happy about Mo I would be a brilliant captain and will be a real help for Joe No1 Root.
-
I don't think we're in a position to give Robinson or Anderson a break. Also not sure that Wood would be that effective on what will be a pretty flat deck. Woakes in for Curran and Pope at 5 are the only two changes I'd make; don't like messing around with what is a momentum team.
Can't wait to see how India line up, suffice to say they have more problems than ourselves...
-
Good conditions on Day 1 for a bowl, think that's the right team too.
No Ashwin is bloody mad
-
Thought they would include Ashwin it may well turn. Good Woakes is in our batting looks stronger.
I think England will want to see a contribution from Pope, he’s a very talented lad but must of been a tight call with Lawrence.
-
THE WIZARD!
-
Welcome back wizard !! Settling in straight away !
-
Sure Curran will come again, but the team looks so much stronger in English conditions with Woakes in there.
-
Thought they would include Ashwin it may well turn. Good Woakes is in our batting looks stronger.
I think England will want to see a contribution from Pope, he’s a very talented lad but must of been a tight call with Lawrence.
Seems they had already made that decision? Lawrence was in Cardiff with Essex, as pointed out to me earlier in thread. Finished yesterday, but not scheduled to do do until today.
-
Seems they had already made that decision? Lawrence was in Cardiff with Essex, as pointed out to me earlier in thread. Finished yesterday, but not scheduled to do do until today.
Yes probably. Hard call because England are backing potential, Pope has masses of talent, there’s Crawley and Lawrence I’m not sure Sibley will be back anytime soon thou.
I think they are wanting one of the youngsters to nail a spot down. Pope and Crawley look the best to me but it’s runs that count.
-
Shocking drop. Burns should have taken that.
-
Shocking drop. Burns should have taken that.
Agreed, no idea what he is thinking not going for that.
One down side of Bairstow keeping is he is a big loss in a cordon that has been poor for a prolonged period
-
done well out of the umpires in this game, that didnt look that high though
-
Robinson is so bloody good
-
Yep he’s looked really good from his first test and Kholi was hitting it beautifully
-
Robinson is so bloody good
How do Broad and Jimmy both fit into an England side now?
-
How do Broad and Jimmy both fit into an England side now?
Woakes has bowled superbly today. Broad is very good but if you had to pick one it’s Anderson. He is still doing it at 38.
He’s just that good he’s in class of his own
-
It will be interesting to see how Robinson gets on with a Kookaburra, as he can certainly make the Dukes ball talk. I was worried about England’s bowling post Anderson and Broad, but I think we will be ok. Just a shame he’s 28 in December.
-
It will be interesting to see how Robinson gets on with a Kookaburra, as he can certainly make the Dukes ball talk. I was worried about England’s bowling post Anderson and Broad, but I think we will be ok. Just a shame he’s 28 in December.
Went really well with a kook on a lion tour in Oz.
-
Went really well with a kook on a lion tour in Oz.
Bit of a resemblance to josh hazlewood too who always gets wickets. Tall and accurate.
-
Bit of a resemblance to josh hazlewood too who always gets wickets. Tall and accurate.
He played with Hazelwood at club level in Australia. He actually presented Robinson with his debut cap for the club.
-
That Mcgrath lad always went ok there too? Despite not bowling 90mph 😉
-
How do Broad and Jimmy both fit into an England side now?
Is Broad going to get back into the test set up? I'm not so sure we will be seeing him in the winter and the likes of Robinson offer a similar threat.
-
A Pant brainless slog? Ah
-
Thanks Pants!
-
Seems like it's the car crash period
-
England in brain fart mode again.
-
Don't think this is anything like the Lords game
Anyway, he's gone, ideally roll them now
-
By the way, what has Ashwin (number 2 ranked bowler in the world) done to upset Virat so much? I mean he 100% should be playing in this game.
-
Convinced he would play after missing the first 3 games and it usually turns at the Oval.
Kholi wants 4 seamers so I get that, but we have a few left handers Ashwin could take the ball away from, Jadeja will bring it in.
Bit of a mystery.
-
Bring back Sibley!
-
Convinced he would play after missing the first 3 games and it usually turns at the Oval.
Kholi wants 4 seamers so I get that, but we have a few left handers Ashwin could take the ball away from, Jadeja will bring it in.
Bit of a mystery.
Jadeja is in mainly for his batting. If pitch offers any assistance to spinners, Jadeja more than capable to exploit it as well. While Ashwin is a decent bat, most of his runs have been on flat decks, so don't really expect Ashwin to bat in conditions when most of top order is failing. India got terribly outplayed with two spinners on green deck in WTC, so can imagine why they don't want to go in with 2 spinners. So even though it looks terrible when Ashwin is missing, given lack of runs from all batsmen and the seaming conditions, difficult to get him in.
-
Sigh
-
Bring back Sibley!
:) As a fan if you don’t laugh you will cry most of the time
-
Malan is the man for a crisis at number 3 and Root is, well just amazing
-
Malan is the man for a crisis at number 3 and Root is, well just amazing
Kiss of death
-
Damn!! But we have others who need make a contribution Root cannot carry us all series.
I think England are ahead, will need to get past the morning session..
-
Typical start really
-
Christ, what a start...
-
dropping kohli and thakur early on is going to cost us here. Malan & root didnt a lot wrong but burns hameed and overton need to have a look in the mirror
-
Sir Olly Pope makes batting look so easy.
-
India just giving away free runs, taken off the pressure easily
-
Ah, that prat running on the field again. Makes a mockery when it comes to player security now
-
#WoakesOut
-
Ah, that prat running on the field again. Makes a mockery when it comes to player security now
Waste of a seat.
-
Another drop from Burns. How is he still in the slip cordon? He’s bloody useless!
-
Another drop from Burns. How is he still in the slip cordon? He’s bloody useless!
Burns only sees cricket balls when he's on the move. If he had his trigger when in the slips he might have half a chance :D
-
Second innings under way and this is just Day-2! What's going on with Test cricket.
-
Second innings under way and this is just Day-2! What's going on with Test cricket.
Day 2?
-
Burns again. Get him out of the slips!
-
You drop Rohit once and it’s bad news. You drop him twice and you know it’s game changing. Magnificent century.
-
Day 2?
When I wrote the comment, it was Day 2 of the Test.
Are you implying that it is typical for a "Day 2"? It really is not.
-
We could be in real trouble here. No Ashwin beggars belief!
-
When I wrote the comment, it was Day 2 of the Test.
Are you implying that it is typical for a "Day 2"? It really is not.
The number of Tests that are finished inside 4 days (or less) it's not exactly uncommon, either.
-
Robinson strikes, we needed that.
No Ashwin might get us out of jail in this game..maybe.
It’s pretty baffling of all venues he’s not playing at the oval
-
Ashwin paying price for out of form batsmen including Rahane and Pant. If every batsmen did their job, then Ashwin would be playing
-
I don’t see the issue with Ashwin missing out. Everyone is acting like India has picked some bum as his replacement. Couldn’t be further from the truth. Jadeja is the best left arm spinner in the world. Sure Ashwin is the best spinner in the world but his deputy isn’t too bad either.
-
Very rare across a 5 match series with up to 25 days of cricket that one individual can decisively turn the outcome but Burns looks to have managed that with his slip catching here across both innings. As humiliating an effort at fielding as you are likely to see at intentional level
-
Was nice to go today, although I did get slightly irritated by the public schoolboy lads who will not stop bloody talking.
Still feel like it's an even game, get one or two early doors and it opens up a little more.
-
Burns has shelled a few this series, don’t know we are flush with slip fielders…Bairstow is good in any position, Mo, Root.
I think Overton is decent as well as an option.
Burns fields there for Surrey but seems to drop too many.
Think I’d have Root,Malan and Mo in there.
I’ve seen Anderson before also in there.
On flat decks you get punished missing too many, I think Burns should be replaced myself
-
I don’t see the issue with Ashwin missing out. Everyone is acting like India has picked some bum as his replacement. Couldn’t be further from the truth. Jadeja is the best left arm spinner in the world. Sure Ashwin is the best spinner in the world but his deputy isn’t too bad either.
He’s a top player in his own right, but as an England supporter you’d have him in the side over Ashwin all day long. Not scored many runs and not taken many wickets.
Any game we’re batting last we all know who you’d rather be facing.
-
He’s a top player in his own right, but as an England supporter you’d have him in the side over Ashwin all day long. Not scored many runs and not taken many wickets.
Any game we’re batting last we all know who you’d rather be facing.
Well I’d assume Kohli/Shastri would say it’s a problem with balancing the side.
If Ashwin is to play you think they’d want Pandya as their all rounder but he doesn’t seem interested in the red ball game anymore.
Ashwin situation, outside Asia, isn’t too dissimilar to the Stokes/Leach situation.
-
I see why they’ve done it but I think they’d be better placed now if they’d played Ashwin over Jadeja, though we’ll never know for sure.
-
Woakes is such a good cricketer
-
Comfortably the most underrated player since I can remember.
I really don’t fancy us chasing anything around 250 even with no Ashwin for them.
-
Moeeeeeeeen
-
Feels like heads have dropped here, been pretty poor after lunch
-
The tactics where crap in the second session. Bowling Moeen with 6 men on the boundary let India milk easy runs and this lead seems far too big already.
-
The tactics where crap in the second session. Bowling Moeen with 6 men on the boundary let India milk easy runs and this lead seems far too big already.
The fielding more than anything will cost us the test, the dropped catches and missed run outs have been shocking
-
Pitch looks dead, there is nothing in it for the bowlers. Eng can chase this if they can wrap this now quick and end the day with 70 odd.
-
Pitch looks dead, there is nothing in it for the bowlers. Eng can chase this if they can wrap this up now quick and end up the day with 70 odd.
All going to be on the new ball and playing Jadeja well
-
Pitch looks dead, there is nothing in it for the bowlers. Eng can chase this if they can wrap this up now quick and end up the day with 70 odd.
Pretty certain the pitch won’t look ‘dead’ when Bumrah and Yadav are bowling around 90mph...
-
Can't see our fragile batting lineup chasing that
-
Can't see our fragile batting lineup chasing that
Apart from Root obviously, all of Woakes, Malan, Hameed, Burns, Bairstow and Mo are scoring and in form. Don't think the batting is as fragile as in the start of the series. Also the pitch is like odi pitch now and most of these guys are good ODI players.
-
I would not class one score from each of them across 4 matches as 'in form'. If the top 4 can put on 200 odd between them fine, but I just don't have faith in them
-
The pitch has flattened and the bowlers did ok with the dropped chances and missed run outs.
I cannot see us being tough enough to get anywhere near this run chase, 250 maybe but not this much.
-
It is hard to predict an outcome here. Match hangs in a balance. Pitch is batting friendly but I don't know if ENG batsmen can capitalize on it. They could do really well but they could also fold under pressure exerted by Kohli and co.
This is match is all about mental strength now.
-
Looks like it will be difficult work for either side to win. Draw is the easiest outcome based on the pitch condition. Only way Ind can win is if Eng go too hard for the win and lose wickets in the process. Otherwise, should be easy for Eng to draw it out at least. But given the target and overs left, Eng would go for the win. That's where it gets tricky and interesting.
-
Looks like it will be difficult work for either side to win. Draw is the easiest outcome based on the pitch condition. Only way Ind can win is if Eng go too hard for the win and lose wickets in the process. Otherwise, should be easy for Eng to draw it out at least. But given the target and overs left, Eng would go for the win. That's where it gets tricky and interesting.
Yes but I don’t think our batting is strong enough to last a day, there is enough time left for us to get bowled out which I think we will do.
But if we bat all the overs we will be very close. It’s a fast scoring outfield.
-
Sounds like it's a decent pitch to bat on, do India's bowlers have enough to prise out England in a day while keeping the run rate under control?
-
Pleased with that from Hameed and Burns
-
Yes very good a hard ball on a good pitch there will be scoring opportunities.
Hameed has improved and has more shots now it seems. I think that’s helping Burns to play a bit more aggressively
-
It will be a thrilling end to this test, tomorrow, 5th day!
Let's see who will hold their nerves the best!
-
Fair play to Burns and Hameed, decent start tomorrow and all to play for!
-
Got Malan, Bairstow and Ali to come. Eng have really good chance of winning
-
Anyone else excited but also terrified
-
Anyone else excited but also terrified
This is exactly how I feel.
-
Day 5 and not expected much to happen off the pitch. Should this be rated as a poor pitch?
-
There’s plenty of rough for the left handers to cope with. Burns played it really well last night.
I like Jadeja but cannot get my head around Ashwin not playing.
It was always going to turn on this wicket.
-
Here comes the collapse...
-
What an awful attempt at a run
-
As they said on TMS, poor cricket whether you're going to chase or go for the draw.
-
cant work out whether we are trying to chase it or not
-
Game over now then
-
Pope overrated as fudge. Flat track bully. Nothing more.
-
More misery
-
Dead pitch my ass
-
Boom Boom Bumrah!! What a bowler! Brilliant!
-
Bairstow has been bowled or LBW 59 times in Test cricket. Man in an embarrassment
-
the lack of proactive batting this morning, and average captaincy yesterday, has just bitten us
-
Alternative view.
We picked the wrong bowling attack. Got lucky in the first innings. Then when we batted we left 200 runs unscored. Pope, Bairstow and Mo culpable.
Our knackered bowlers (from previous back to back tests) slogged through 150 overs in the field and the team is now broken.
That is pure test match cricket. The Indians are a better team than us.
-
Bairstow has been bowled or LBW 59 times in Test cricket. Man in an embarrassment
To be fair that was a Jaffa first up and would have cleaned many up but you have a point. Also no idea really why we pick Ali, has been poor in test cricket for a while now with both bat and ball.
Root still there and Woakes is a decent bat so fingers crossed for small miracles
-
Why have they not played Leach??
-
Why have they not played Leach??
Because you can't balance the team with Leach in it. The tail becomes too long. This is the problem with not having Stokes. Although Woakes is a true all rounder in my view, especially in England.
-
Because you can't balance the team with Leach in it. The tail becomes too long. This is the problem with not having Stokes. Although Woakes is a true all rounder in my view, especially in England.
I'm not sure this holds true with Woakes, Overton and Robinson, or even with Wood playing. Could see the rationale before they brought back Woakes but Moeen hasn't bowled very well and Leach did nothing wrong before being unceremoniously binned.
-
India literally play with 3 11s and it’s not done them any harm has it?
Moeen’s test career should be over after this match.
-
Bairstow has been bowled or LBW 59 times in Test cricket. Man in an embarrassment
Not a bad nut tho, so can't really be blamed for that. Good balls can get anyone out.
-
Why not the classical four man attack? Leach would fit nicely then.
Good balls is all very well but Pope and Bairstow both prodded across straight balls :(
-
Bumrah is quality, and anything above 200 was going to be a tough chase with our fragile/aggressive batting lineup. The second new ball spells doom for us
-
These effing drag ons
Jesus Christ
-
Pitch still dead, just no one including the experts expected the reverse swing to come into play. What swings test cricket brings!
-
India got reverse swing because their spinner, after a few pies yesterday, can actually bowl a proper spell.
Whereas Moeen comes on and gets smashed around.
There are levels to this test cricket malarkey...
-
This Thakur guy punches above his weight. Though not a massive wicket taker, he picked up the highest scorer in Eng 1st innings, opened up the gates today morning and then the wicket of Root. Plus without his batting in both innings, game would have been over by Day 4.
-
This Thakur guy punches above his weight. Though not a massive wicket taker, he picked up the highest scorer in Eng 1st innings, opened up the gates today morning and then the wicket of Root. Plus without his batting in both innings, game would have been over by Day 4.
Burying Ashwin’s hopes in this series
-
Burying Ashwin’s hopes in this series
Can't blame Thakur for Ashwin's non-inclusion. Thakur more than proved his worth in this test. Ashwin could replace Rahane, still score more runs than him just as a batter.
-
Can't blame Thakur for Ashwin's non-inclusion. Thakur more than proved his worth in this test. Ashwin could replace Rahane, still score more runs than him just as a batter.
You might get your wish at Old Trafford...
-
As @Buzz said, it’s good test match cricket from India, we cannot bat the whole day.
Vaughan on commentary saying the best chance for us winning is Hameed getting out shows why certain pundits should never be listened to.
If we can’t win we must try to draw. It’s beyond belief some of the garbage that gets put out in the media
-
Irrespective of what Vaughan said, Hameed batting was really surprising. With 300 to chase, 10 wickets in hand and a flat pitch, he seemed batting for a draw up front. Can understand if he switched into block mode after few wickets fell but when he batted, Eng were only 2 down. If Eng got 40 more runs in first session, it could have ended quite differently.
-
Got Malan, Bairstow and Ali to come. Eng have really good chance of winning
I take it back.
-
Irrespective of what Vaughan said, Hameed batting was really surprising. With 300 to chase, 10 wickets in hand and a flat pitch, he seemed batting for a draw up front. Can understand if he switched into block mode after few wickets fell but when he batted, Eng were only 2 down. If Eng got 40 more runs in first session, it could have ended quite differently.
Nonsense...wickets did not fall because England were trying to chase the runs down. Wickets fell to some excellent bowling. If it wasnt for Hameed and Burns, this match would have ended already. Flat or not, its never easy chasing such a big score on Day 5. Also credit to Indian bowlers to the way they stuck to their lines in the morning session.
-
Irrespective of what Vaughan said, Hameed batting was really surprising. With 300 to chase, 10 wickets in hand and a flat pitch, he seemed batting for a draw up front. Can understand if he switched into block mode after few wickets fell but when he batted, Eng were only 2 down. If Eng got 40 more runs in first session, it could have ended quite differently.
No I cannot see that point of view at all, England have enough stroke players down the order, Hameed has a job to do and was doing exact what was needed, he got a great ball from out of the rough.
England lost this in the field, you cannot let good sides off with too many chances, which we did.
India in this game have been better all round.
-
Irrespective of what Vaughan said, Hameed batting was really surprising. With 300 to chase, 10 wickets in hand and a flat pitch, he seemed batting for a draw up front. Can understand if he switched into block mode after few wickets fell but when he batted, Eng were only 2 down. If Eng got 40 more runs in first session, it could have ended quite differently.
I don't think he was batting for a draw, he was just batting. They had a man out for the clip off his pads and didn't give him anything short and wide, he doesn't have many other scoring options. Can see it be an ongoing issue with him where he gets off to a start then just grinds to a halt as oppositions just block off his 2 areas. He tried one break away shot from Jadeja and got dropped.
-
Nonsense...wickets did not fall because England were trying to chase the runs down. Wickets fell to some excellent bowling. If it wasnt for Hameed and Burns, this match would have ended already. Flat or not, its never easy chasing such a big score on Day 5. Also credit to Indian bowlers to the way they stuck to their lines in the morning session.
Totally right. Plus our fielding. A 250 chase is far different from 350 plus. It’s turning and that creates doubt which helps their seamers.
And their seamers are very good.
-
If you don't try to win chasing 300 with 10 wickets in hand and 90 overs to go on a flat pitch, then on any other pitch, you will aim for a draw upfront. In most cases, if you are too defensive, you will get a ball with your name on it. Have seen with Pujara in this series and countless others in past. Also it lets the bowling team get on top as now they don't have to worry about losing option, it is just a win or draw for them.
I would rather have the team try for a win and win some and lose some rather than try to draw out every such game (and still draw some and lose some).
This is just my view, not saying it is necessarily the right view as everyone sees things differently.
-
The loss isn’t on Hameed at all ffs. He laid a platform. Not his fault that India’s attack murdered the rest of the batting line up.
-
The loss isn’t on Hameed at all ffs. He laid a platform. Not his fault that India’s attack murdered the rest of the batting line up.
Some clear thinking at last
-
I don't think anyone blaming Hameed for the loss. Just when you analyze things after, and think if some things played out differently, if that could have changed the result. Doesn't mean you are saying he is the reason for all the things that happened. Still have to appreciate him scoring 60 runs in a team score of 200 odd.
You could also think what if Pope, Bairstow and Mo scored 30 odd each, what if Eng bowlers restricted Ind to lower, etc., but that is obvious part everyone agrees upon, there is no fun in that discussion :D
-
The only person to blame is Rory Burns...he missed that catch in the slips off Rohit in the second innings when he lost the ball and that cost Eng the match!
-
Heavyweight performance by a heavyweight side. World class captaincy from Kohli and an incredible bowling attack. Too good.
-
As a non-English supporter, I find Joe Root classy in every respect on and off the field, even during the press conferences, with that smile on his face. I hope the management has his back.
-
Something like our 8th collapse this year.
-
This team needs Ben Stokes. Period. Without Stokes, there is no fire in either the batting or bowling. The English attack can only prosper when the ball is swinging miles, but noone has the talent to to make things work when conditions are favorable. I dread to think what Australia will do to this side in their home conditions!
-
To be fair to Eng, this is their 2nd team with many first choice players missing against a full strength Indian side, yet the series has been pretty even and mostly decided by one session collapse on either side really. So don't think there is much diff between the two sides. Each side has some magnificent individual performances masking its own set of issues to get through the line.
-
This team needs Ben Stokes. Period. Without Stokes, there is no fire in either the batting or bowling. The English attack can only prosper when the ball is swinging miles, but noone has the talent to to make things work when conditions are favorable. I dread to think what Australia will do to this side in their home conditions!
He has definatley been missed. I think he is needed in the think tank and has been since Root became Captain.That’s ok, Root can’t be a great captain and our best batsman.
Butler looks unlikely to tour and it could be Stokes is missing also.
He’s a big loss and a leader on the field.
-
To be fair to Eng, this is their 2nd team with many first choice players missing against a full strength Indian side, yet the series has been pretty even and mostly decided by one session collapse on either side really. So don't think there is much diff between the two sides. Each side has its own set of issues masked by some magnificent individual performances to get through the line.
Stokes and Broad are missing. Aside from that this is the best we’ve got.
That said the bowling hasn’t really missed Broad anyway.
-
Stokes and Broad are missing. Aside from that this is the best we’ve got.
That said the bowling hasn’t really missed Broad anyway.
Archer
-
Archer
In seaming conditions Archer wouldn’t get a look in over Woakes or Robinson
-
In seaming conditions Archer wouldn’t get a look in over Woakes or Robinson
He would be a point of difference though. As would Wood or Stone.
IMO they'd be a stronger side with Foakes too rather than Bairstow.
-
Catches win matches!
-
He would be a point of difference though. As would Wood or Stone.
IMO they'd be a stronger side with Foakes too rather than Bairstow.
Don’t get me started on Bairstow...
-
He would be a point of difference though. As would Wood or Stone.
IMO they'd be a stronger side with Foakes too rather than Bairstow.
A few months ago I would agree with this but I think Foakes should 100% play but at the expense of Butler I would rather have JYB at 5/6 than the likes of Butler, Lawrence etc. I like the batting line up of:
Burns
Hameed
Malan/Crawley
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
3 bowlers plus Stokes who is missing and due to this it just makes the side unbalanced currently
Burns and Hameed have had 2 x 100 stands so far so a lot better at the top and JYB hasn’t been bad this series just not got the score he would have wanted and I generally feel those balls Pope and Bairstow got would have got many a better batsmen out at that pace with reverse swing.
On to Manchester and I don’t think a drawn series is a bad result against this side given our issues as a Test side at the moment and the strength of the Indian side, remember they are the best test side in the world with a class seam attack in the best country condition wise for seam bowling
-
Have to agree on the Pope and Bairstow wickets, could have got anyone out with that kind of reverse swing and pace. Have heard that reverse swing occurs late, making it more difficult to play compared to conventional swing which in itself is difficult to play.
-
Burns
Hameed
Malan/Crawley
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
3 bowlers plus Stokes who is missing and due to this it just makes the side unbalanced currently
I don't hate that line up but I'm not convinced with only 3 bowlers and Bairstow is the man I'd sacrifice from that side personally.
Hameed
Burns
Malan
Root
Pope
Stokes
Foakes
Bowling all-rounder(Woakes/Overton), Leach/Parkinson and a couple of bowlers suited for the conditions (Anderson, Robinson, Broad, Archer, Wood, Mahmood, Stone).
I'd also argue Robinson should be a nailed on starter outside of the subcontinent at this point. Think his style of bowling just gives you so much as long as the attack around him is suited to conditions.
-
The Bairstow hate on here is funny. Inswinging yorker at 90mph or thereabouts is bound to get even the best out at times. I'm not sure how anyone thinks Foakes would be a better bet?! We dropped crucial catches and Bumrah bowled very well after lunch, a great spell. They're two flawed teams imo, but India have stepped up when needed.
I'd rest Anderson next game, as he's bowled a lot of overs and looked a little leggy. I'd bring Wood in and go with the below. I like Moen but he still can't offer control or much threat in general, so I'd bring Leach in.
Burns
Hameed
Malan
Root
Pope
Bairstow
Woakes
Wood
Overton
Robinson
Leach
-
The Bairstow hate on here is funny. Inswinging yorker at 90mph or thereabouts is bound to get even the best out at times. I'm not sure how anyone thinks Foakes would be a better bet?! We dropped crucial catches and Bumrah bowled very well after lunch, a great spell. They're two flawed teams imo, but India have stepped up when needed.
I'd rest Anderson next game, as he's bowled a lot of overs and looked a little leggy. I'd bring Wood in and go with the below. I like Moen but he still can't offer control or much threat in general, so I'd bring Leach in.
Burns
Hameed
Malan
Root
Pope
Bairstow
Woakes
Wood
Overton
Robinson
Leach
In the short term, Bairstow makes sense. Long term, I'm less convinced.
Agree with much of that side for the next test, other than Wood batting ahead of Overton and Robinson :D
-
Bairstow has done no better or worse than most others so I don’t think leaving him out would improve us at the moment.
Moeen has been made VC so dropping him would just make the selectors look stupid.
Our seamers did look tired of the ones we have not sure who would be best, maybe Wood.
We have to win at OT so England might consider leaving out a batsman to get Leach in. I think myself the reality is England won’t pick Leach-he hasn’t played at all this year.
-
Sadly, we just need to accept that we are currently a very average test outfit and average performances will happen as a result.
-
England are better team and have the momentum with them, England will win next Test despite any changes in Indian team!
This aged well @AJ2014
-
All this series has shown is how much we miss Stokes and how bad a side we are without him.
He balances the side with both bat and ball and also fields at 2nd slip and catches the ball when he's there!!!
-
Definitely we miss Stokes, he can make things happen and is a leader on the field which Root needs.
Butler available for old Trafford according to the papers but not sure that strengthens us much in current form.
Like to see Leach in who is our best spinner but don’t think that will happen.
-
Definitely we miss Stokes, he can make things happen and is a leader on the field which Root needs.
Butler available for old Trafford according to the papers but not sure that strengthens us much in current form.
Like to see Leach in who is our best spinner but don’t think that will happen.
Have to question who Buttler replaces? As you say, no upgrade on Bairstow and they're not going to drop Pope after his 80 odd.
-
Have to question who Buttler replaces? As you say, no upgrade on Bairstow and they're not going to drop Pope after his 80 odd.
Yes very much so. I think Mahmood has picked up a niggle and our two best seamers, Robinson and Anderson are looking a bit tired.
Wood in probably as he’s fit, old Trafford will turn but we don’t have many options.
I think I’d have Wood for Overton, still playing Robbo and Anderson for one more game.
We probably won’t play leach and it will be Mo and a bit of Root.
Not easy to see options to win the next match. A big first innings score and hope the wicket falls to bit later on.
We are grasping at straws.
-
Butter in for Bairstow whom is averaging 21 in his last 34 innings.
Leach for Moeen whom is averaging 19 in his last 30 odd innings.
Wood is for either Anderson or Robinson.
If it’s gonna spin big Parkinson for Overton whom looked like he copped a bad blow to his arm yesterday anyway.
Hameed
Burns
Malan
Root
Pope
Buttler
Woakes
Wood
Leach
Parkinson
Anderson/Robinson
-
This aged well @AJ2014
I also said don't change the winning team!
Even with this team they would have won the match if Sharma catch wasn't drop!
And now I see people asking for Buttler coming back in the team 👍
-
As a non-English supporter, I find Joe Root classy in every respect on and off the field, even during the press conferences, with that smile on his face. I hope the management has his back.
Fully agree. Seems a great guy!
-
Leach and Buttler back in the side.
I expect us to mess around the former, again
-
Leach and Buttler back in the side.
I expect us to mess around the former, again
It's just the squad at the moment, until they announce otherwise I expect Leach to be carrying the drinks
-
I don't think anyone blaming Hameed for the loss. Just when you analyze things after, and think if some things played out differently, if that could have changed the result. Doesn't mean you are saying he is the reason for all the things that happened. Still have to appreciate him scoring 60 runs in a team score of 200 odd.
You could also think what if Pope, Bairstow and Mo scored 30 odd each, what if Eng bowlers restricted Ind to lower, etc., but that is obvious part everyone agrees upon, there is no fun in that discussion :D
The fact people are still ranting on about 'intent' and 'look to score'.. .it's test cricket.. Englands first priority was to not lose, if you'r then in a position to win come 1500 then go for it but don't bloody give it away being all white ball and having 'intent' and then get skittled game after game.
This series has seen 3 one sided games with heavy wins/defeats for teams.. that suggests that basically, each side is relying on someone 'coming off' rather than consistently performing.
Hameed.. If he had just plodded along given all the white ball players in the side.. maybe chasing 150 in the last session was possible?? Maybe that would have been better as you can always shut up shop for 15 overs rather than get skittled like we did and then try and survive 30+ overs ...
Root's shot... open face, trying to 'work it'.... stupid shot really given his main priority was to bat time.. why force the issue and open the door for India??
It's test cricket not one day cricket so you don't need to always be looking to have intent
-
This team needs Ben Stokes. Period. Without Stokes, there is no fire in either the batting or bowling. The English attack can only prosper when the ball is swinging miles, but noone has the talent to to make things work when conditions are favorable. I dread to think what Australia will do to this side in their home conditions!
christ sake.. He isn't a messiah.. he avg's late 30's and it wasn't 'fire' that was needed.. it was simply the ability to bat long and not give the wicket away. Even if you take a one off , once in a lifetime performance as an example...
Stokes... 2019.. vs Aus
how many balls was it be batted when it was purely surviving ???? Purely trying to protect a batsmen???
then.. right when the game as pretty much lost.. he just rolled the dice and went for it... If he (and root at the time from memory) had done what most people seem to be moaning about and had 'intent' and 'looked to score' from the off.. no way he could have produced that innings.. To get yourself in a position in a test to win when you are behind the curve, you have to first..do the hard hards..
England in this test, did SOME hard yards with the openers but they failed to continue to do the hard yards and everyone else just went waaaaay to early rather than ensuring they firstly, tried to make the draw genuinely available before looking to win.. they looked to win and paid the price because their batting is to gun ho
-
Sadly, we just need to accept that we are currently a very average test outfit and average performances will happen as a result.
hahaha
good luck finding the ECB, Media or 99% of people on here willing to admit this side is very average... Continuous banging on about how great most of these players are!!
Woakesssyyy...
Stokeesssyyyy
Roootttyyyyy
YJB YJB
etc etc etc
-
Butter in for Bairstow whom is averaging 21 in his last 34 innings.
but YJB is the 2nd best England batter... peeps here said so!!! Can't possibly be his fault..
As it happens though.. Now they've been stupid enough to pick him and Foakes seems unlikely to ever get picked again... Leave Bairstow at 7 as the wk batter.. no higher as he's not good enough but as a 7, he is decent enough and there are bigger issues in the batting than Bairstow.
-
You may all love white ball but Test Cricket isn't white ball. Sure you play to win but you first make sure you can draw if you are under the pump.. Don't lose.. If you do that, you never know what can happen.. If you keep going out there with players who simply aren't prepared to bat time under pressure or just 'play my way' and hit and hope to have a good day then you're just asking to be crap at red ball cricket.
Sure you'll have some good innings, some good games or even series.. but over the long term... you'll avg 30's or less... shock horror.... that's what we have!
If anyone points at Root (insert Kohli/smith or Williamson) and say 'ah but they do it'... yeah.. they do.. because.. well, you know.. THEY ARE ACTUALLY WORLD CLASS and only a very very very small section of people are world class and able to combine solid defence, capable of batting a long time with intent to score.. the majority simply can't..
Stop having a go at players who are either slow plodders in test cricket because, well... test sides need them... Just like at 6/7 you need players who are more like one day players (Buttler/Bairstow etc).. because you know, they are the guys that cash in against tired bowlers and score at higher rates.. not bloody 1/2/3..their job is to bat time
-
hahaha
good luck finding the ECB, Media or 99% of people on here willing to admit this side is very average... Continuous banging on about how great most of these players are!!
Woakesssyyy...
Stokeesssyyyy
Roootttyyyyy
YJB YJB
etc etc etc
I think most people would admit that, but doesn't mean you have to constantly slate everything they do.
I find it better trying to be positive than being overly negative, or just being completely irrational about international cricketers tbh. If you don't class 'Roooottttyyy' as a world class batsman, I'm not sure what you're looking for!
Stokes is hugely missed as he helps balance the side and in the past has bowled great spells when needed, making things happen when nobody else could. A bit like Bumrah did yesterday.
Bairstow is a 6 or 7 and in my opinion a better red ball player than Butler. Plus no worse with the gloves. He'd get into a few test sides I reckon. Pretty much most of the pundits/ex-players in the media I've heard discuss his role have said the same.
But then again what do they, myself or anyone else on here (apart from your good self obviously it seems) know! 😆
-
I think most people would admit that, but doesn't mean you have to constantly slate everything they do.
I find it better trying to be positive than being overly negative, or just being completely irrational about international cricketers tbh. If you don't class 'Roooottttyyy' as a world class batsman, I'm not sure what you're looking for!
Stokes is hugely missed as he helps balance the side and in the past has bowled great spells when needed, making things happen when nobody else could. A bit like Bumrah did yesterday.
Bairstow is a 6 or 7 and in my opinion a better red ball player than Butler. Plus no worse with the gloves. He'd get into a few test sides I reckon. Pretty much most of the pundits/ex-players in the media I've heard discuss his role have said the same.
But then again what do they, myself or anyone else on here (apart from your good self obviously it seems) know! 😆
I think there is most of the time a fairly healthy debate, different views of course :)
But even those of us who have it the other way round, Butler before bairstow, know there is not much in it.
Butler is short of cricket and not in form, plus rumour has it he’s missing the Ashes.
Bairstow in Sri Lanka batted pretty good, and he’s done pretty good in this series too.His keeping looks maybe a bit improved from before.
I find it impossible to believe both will play at old Trafford, we need to shoe in the most bowling we can.
I don’t think myself it would now be right to drop Bairstow, so Butler missed out.
-
Think the stats support that Bairstow is a better red ball batsman than Buttler. I'd still rather have Foakes in keeping and batting at 7 but Bairstow makes sense for the next test at least.
Longer term I wouldn't mind seeing England looking at a a few slightly more experienced red ball players for the test side. Aussies showed the value of experience when they brought in the likes of Voges or Rogers, don't think it's crazy to suggest that England's newer players have suffered from a lack of experience around them as they develop their test careers.
-
I think most people would admit that, but doesn't mean you have to constantly slate everything they do.
I find it better trying to be positive than being overly negative, or just being completely irrational about international cricketers tbh. If you don't class 'Roooottttyyy' as a world class batsman, I'm not sure what you're looking for!
Stokes is hugely missed as he helps balance the side and in the past has bowled great spells when needed, making things happen when nobody else could. A bit like Bumrah did yesterday.
Bairstow is a 6 or 7 and in my opinion a better red ball player than Butler. Plus no worse with the gloves. He'd get into a few test sides I reckon. Pretty much most of the pundits/ex-players in the media I've heard discuss his role have said the same.
But then again what do they, myself or anyone else on here (apart from your good self obviously it seems) know! 😆
Root is World Class. THE ONLY world class batter England have.
The others aren't world class batsmen and most aren't even test class batsmen as they simply don't average 40+. Simply stop over rating them. State 'good knock' when they come off but don't start saying 'oh x is great, what a player'.. just acknowledge it was a randomly good knock.. That way, not only do 'we' not over rate players but also we don't get down when they fail because.. well.. it's expected as they aren't very good.
Stokes has a knackered knee, his best spells for bowling are behind him. Accept that he's basically now going to be a batsmen (so needs to get that avg above 40 which he was on track to do) and forget his bowling . Woakes is the premier all rounder really now (and under rated) but even he had injury issues. There is no replacement for Woakes (no, curran isn't even close!).
The rest of the batting, just accept they can't (currently) bat like smith/williamson/kohli or root and accept their limitations. If Sibley/Burns/Hameed/crawley/Malan are the best we have in the top 3 then simply assign them a role.. that role is to tire the bowlers out.. leave the fast scoring to the middle order of stokes, Buttler, Barstow, pope, woakes.. that way, at least we play like a test side and start to play consistent cricket. rather than one game someone comes off, next game skittled.
FYI... I can't stand Barstow and the amount of chances he's had and continues to get .. BUT... IF.. IF England are simply going to ignore Foakes then Bairstow for me anyway, is the Wk Bat at 7 with Woakes at 8.
-
Root is World Class. THE ONLY world class batter England have.
The others aren't world class batsmen and most aren't even test class batsmen as they simply don't average 40+. Simply stop over rating them. State 'good knock' when they come off but don't start saying 'oh x is great, what a player'.. just acknowledge it was a randomly good knock.. That way, not only do 'we' not over rate players but also we don't get down when they fail because.. well.. it's expected as they aren't very good.
Stokes has a knackered knee, his best spells for bowling are behind him. Accept that he's basically now going to be a batsmen (so needs to get that avg above 40 which he was on track to do) and forget his bowling . Woakes is the premier all rounder really now (and under rated) but even he had injury issues. There is no replacement for Woakes (no, curran isn't even close!).
The rest of the batting, just accept they can't (currently) bat like smith/williamson/kohli or root and accept their limitations. If Sibley/Burns/Hameed/crawley/Malan are the best we have in the top 3 then simply assign them a role.. that role is to tire the bowlers out.. leave the fast scoring to the middle order of stokes, Buttler, Barstow, pope, woakes.. that way, at least we play like a test side and start to play consistent cricket. rather than one game someone comes off, next game skittled.
FYI... I can't stand Barstow and the amount of chances he's had and continues to get .. BUT... IF.. IF England are simply going to ignore Foakes then Bairstow for me anyway, is the Wk Bat at 7 with Woakes at 8.
Not sure I've ever said we have a side of world class players tbh. Come to that, not sure i hear that at all on here or anywhere else either.
I agree Stokes won't be used much as a bowler, was making the point that he's been missed due to the balance he gave the side. Before his injury and recent issues, there were not many better true all rounders about imo.
Oh and to borrow one of your terms.....Foakes ain't the messiah! Bairstow and Buttler are both adequate with the gloves and probably both offer more with the bat so not sure what Foakes would add, apart from his keeping. Which as good as it is, won't win you matches. Especially when we don't have a great spinner.
-
I think Foakes is probably capable of applying more pressure with his keeping, would back him standing up far more than Buttler or Bairstow.
He's also a more naturally gritty player than Bairstow or Buttler so offers a point of difference compared to the likes of Root, Stokes and Pope who would be my personal choice for 4/5/6 in an ideal world.
-
He's also a more naturally gritty player than Bairstow or Buttler so offers a point of difference compared to the likes of Root, Stokes and Pope
Ahh... you mean a bit of balance within a side rather than just one stroke maker after another.. who would have thought that having a BALANCED side was a good idea...
totally agree. Foakes may or may not avg 40-42.... He will however be slightly better with the gloves and offer potentially better value when at the other end to stroke making 4/5/6/8/9
-
Why Bairstow and Buttler have not been able to bring their white ball form to red ball cricket would make for an interesting study. Is it purely because of technical limitations or does England need an aggressive skipper who asks his team to go out and play their natural game without worrying about the result aka fearless cricket. Would someone with a mentality like Morgan benefit the test side?
Also, didnt some pundit suggest the other day on twitter that Livingstone should be promoted to the Test team?
-
Why Bairstow and Buttler have not been able to bring their white ball form to red ball cricket would make for an interesting study. Is it purely because of technical limitations or does England need an aggressive skipper who asks his team to go out and play their natural game without worrying about the result aka fearless cricket. Would someone with a mentality like Morgan benefit the test side?
Also, didnt some pundit suggest the other day on twitter that Livingstone should be promoted to the Test team?
I think this is the problem except in the complete opposite of how you mean. Baylis did his best to merge to different formats that only the very best players can adapt to.
It didn’t work and was never going to. You really can’t power hit high class test match bowling unless you are exceptional.We need to persevere with the likes of Hameed to try to get us batting test match style not one day style.
To be fair to Butler in the last 18 months he has played some good controlled innings and tried to adapt.
Bairstow even has tried I think this series.
Some of our best test players are also our best one day players, but the spine of our batting has to be those more suited to long form.
And we don’t have many of those :)
-
I don’t really care if Buttler’s going to skip the Ashes. If he is the #1 keeper batsman then he plays at Old Trafford. Bairstow drops out of the side and he’s got no real argument otherwise - averages 21 in last 34 innings....
-
I don’t really care if Buttler’s going to skip the Ashes. If he is the #1 keeper batsman then he plays at Old Trafford. Bairstow drops out of the side and he’s got no real argument otherwise - averages 21 in last 34 innings....
Yeah :) another perspective would be he’s in the side as a 5/6 batsman, asked to keep and bat at 7, ok so far, then Butler returns so Bairstow is dumped as a keeper and also as a batsman.
I’m no Bairstow fan but that’s rough treatment.
-
Why Bairstow and Buttler have not been able to bring their white ball form to red ball cricket would make for an interesting study. Is it purely because of technical limitations or does England need an aggressive skipper who asks his team to go out and play their natural game without worrying about the result aka fearless cricket. Would someone with a mentality like Morgan benefit the test side?
Also, didnt some pundit suggest the other day on twitter that Livingstone should be promoted to the Test team?
oh good god.. 'fearless cricket'.. lol... you realise that's what Bayliss tried and it TOTALLY FAILED.. Utterly and completely failed. Bairstow, Buttler, Duckett, Moeen up the order, stokes up the order, root up the order .. hales was it even?? ROY!... I mean.. Jesus...
White Ball is a TOTALLY different game now to red ball. Simple as that. Before any India jumps up and down over Rohit etc... Lets just remember how inconsistent this Indian batting line up is too shall we......
-
Yeah :) another perspective would be he’s in the side as a 5/6 batsman, asked to keep and bat at 7, ok so far, then Butler returns so Bairstow is dumped as a keeper and also as a batsman.
I’m no Bairstow fan but that’s rough treatment.
Bairstow turns 32 soon and as a pure batsman he averages 27 after 51 innings. Furthermore he averages 28 batting at 5 after 36 innings. Neither of these are small sample sizes.
Pope, whilst nothing overly special, is 23. So if it’s Bairstow vs Pope I’d go with the younger man. More so as Bairstow has received far too many opportunities at Test cricket and he’s not good enough.
-
Bairstow turns 32 soon and as a pure batsman he averages 27 after 51 innings. Furthermore he averages 28 batting at 5 after 36 innings. Neither of these are small sample sizes.
Pope, whilst nothing overly special, is 23. So if it’s Bairstow vs Pope I’d go with the younger man. More so as Bairstow has received far too many opportunities at Test cricket and he’s not good enough.
The figures on there own don’t lie, it will be interesting to see which way they go.
One of Pope, Bairstow or Butler is being left out.
-
The rest of the batting, just accept they can't (currently) bat like smith/williamson/kohli or root and accept their limitations. If Sibley/Burns/Hameed/crawley/Malan are the best we have in the top 3 then simply assign them a role.. that role is to tire the bowlers out.. leave the fast scoring to the middle order of stokes, Buttler, Barstow, pope, woakes.. that way, at least we play like a test side and start to play consistent cricket. rather than one game someone comes off, next game skittled.
"Tire bowlers out" is in the past mate. That should not be the strategy. I thought Hammed was fine, I actually didn't notice how many balls he took until it flashed in front of me. His defensive shots were followed by a look for a run, not safe for a run, say no and re-set. I feel the same watching Burns. I think if you give Hameed and Burns a good run you will see them grow in confidence and those defensive shots for none will become singles. Sibley was the opposite. No intent to score at all unless it was in his leg side zone. Horrible for your team as you never feel comfortable that he wont get out next ball and not ticking the scoreboard over.
Maybe your white ball heroes could follow McCullums approach and just go nuts no matter the situation. Stick to your strengths...
England have been in the box seat for all 3 tests at one stage or another and only managed to win one. Your bowlers have got you into those winning positions. Id be pretty upset as a bowler if My batsman then made a plan to bat for draw first and then if we are in a position to win go for it.
-
Why Bairstow and Buttler have not been able to bring their white ball form to red ball cricket would make for an interesting study. Is it purely because of technical limitations or does England need an aggressive skipper who asks his team to go out and play their natural game without worrying about the result aka fearless cricket. Would someone with a mentality like Morgan benefit the test side?
Also, didnt some pundit suggest the other day on twitter that Livingstone should be promoted to the Test team?
I certainly think it is the case with Butler that there is no clear thinking about what his role in the side is. There is no point picking one of the most destructive batsmen in the world for him to scratch around with no purpose. The comparison with the freedom Pant has to play game changing innings is marked.
The approach on the final morning of the fifth test did sum up for me the concern over the lack of purpose to our batting. If you can't find a way of putting pressure back onto the fielding side and their captain, then you build the pressure on yourself.
-
"Tire bowlers out" is in the past mate. That should not be the strategy.
Nonsense it is valuable now more than ever, especially during a test series with back to back matches.
In the second innings at the oval England bowled 150 overs. Only 26 or so were bowled by Mo and about 6 by Root.
This has been the pattern of Joe's captaincy, he flogs his best bowlers, check out Jimmy's workload. Jofra is broken.
At the start of the oval test, Jimmy and Robbo looked shot. They won't make it through Manchester.
It is absolutely relevant.
Fielding for that long also breaks batsmen.
-
"Tire bowlers out" is in the past mate. That should not be the strategy. I thought Hammed was fine, I actually didn't notice how many balls he took until it flashed in front of me. His defensive shots were followed by a look for a run, not safe for a run, say no and re-set. I feel the same watching Burns. I think if you give Hameed and Burns a good run you will see them grow in confidence and those defensive shots for none will become singles. Sibley was the opposite. No intent to score at all unless it was in his leg side zone. Horrible for your team as you never feel comfortable that he wont get out next ball and not ticking the scoreboard over.
Maybe your white ball heroes could follow McCullums approach and just go nuts no matter the situation. Stick to your strengths...
England have been in the box seat for all 3 tests at one stage or another and only managed to win one. Your bowlers have got you into those winning positions. Id be pretty upset as a bowler if My batsman then made a plan to bat for draw first and then if we are in a position to win go for it.
yes, let's all bat like McCullum (who was great value btw, loved his 300) and watch the side be flashy one day and collapse the next 6 times before someone finally comes off again.. wooo.. that isn't test cricket, that's one day / 2020 / 100 cricket and thinking you're displaying.
There is an absolute need for tiring out bowlers in test cricket, both within one game but also across a series.. Tire bowlers out, they bowl worse, they (and batters/wk) make mistakes, drop catches, lose concentration, then when they come to bat.. they make errors and get out cheaply.. It isn't always about THAT singular innings or knock.. That is one of the beauties of test cricket compare to the random, pot luck one off nature of white ball.
Sure, go out there a nd bat for the win no matter what but just look.. simply look at this England side (I will say again, I don't really think ANY current test side is actually much cop btw).. who, after the top 4 (who aren't exactly great at it either but would be even worse going out there with all this intent etc!) is going to bat time? lets please exclude the random one off freak knocks that ANY batsmen is capable off.. who CONSISTENTLY has demonstrated they are able to eat up 150 balls to help save a game?? Stokes? Bairstow? Pope? Buttler? Woakes? Moeen? Curran? if you're going to ask your top 4 to 'go for the win' then you need to be bloody confident that your 'tail' can see it home if you should need to fight a rear guard action.. If (like England) your batting is dismal, you simply can't just recklessly go for the win as your middle order/tail is so prone to capitulation.
Losing like this is embarrassing for a test side.. It isn't just like white ball where, if people are honest.. who gives a crap from game to game who wins or loses. This is test cricket, each game means more and to keep winning or losing by huge margins isn't good cricket at all.. It just means we are relying on one or two players each game to 'come off'.. that's poor from the players, poor from the coaches, poor from the media, poor from the fans, poor from the ECB, poor from the counties and poor show from amateur cricket too.. all are utterly failing to produce players with both the technical skills but also the mental abilities required to adjust their game or even provide platforms for different skill sets
Anyway, as always it appears most on here just want to see white ball hitting in test cricket. Sad to read and the reason tests are being generally so one sided in their results.. win by an inns and x, win by 100+ runs etc etc. That's fair enough but at least appreciate the skills both technical and mental as well as styles of players being lost to the game from pro level to amateur level and the effect that will have over time on the numbers following and playing this great game.
viewing figures are down
Participation is down
White ball has been eminent for a looooong while now and shows no sign of abating this.. From my limited experience of different counties , I would also venture that the quality of amateur cricket at least is poorer than ever.. Even with people playing their beloved win lose, limited overs, power plays, free hit hitting games.... if the quality is in decline, the numbers in decline.. Why do so many firmly believe the future is even shorter, even more dumbed down formats?
-
Very much agree with that Buzz, also with Mo he does get wickets but the run rate is pretty high, we are missing a slow bowler with control(Leach) who can tie an end down to give the seamers a breather.
Don’t know how we get Leach into the team but again, if we had batsman capable of getting us 300 most games he would be in.
As it is, just cannot see him playing. Unless we play 2 spinners next game and leave out a seamer which is unlikely
-
What's more, cricket is in danger of alienating and losing its most passionate supporters. It often seems that you have more of a voice if you don't love cricket than if you do.
-
What's more, cricket is in danger of alienating and losing its most passionate supporters. It often seems that you have more of a voice if you don't love cricket than if you do.
the sport is run by people whose only concern is money, not the actual sport
-
the sport is run by people whose only concern is money, not the actual sport
I dont really believe in this argument. Arent some countries still doing well in the longer format despite focusing on the shorter formats? I read an article the other day which in my opinion hit the nail on head. If you look at county cricket, trundlers do well and get loads of wickets thanks to helpful pitches. These trundlers wouldnt stand a chance playing at the highest level yet they rule supreme in county cricket. Its all thanks to the kind of pitches which are prepared. If ECB really wants to change the state of things, it needs to start preparing pitches which are better. The batsmen are not really getting the kind of prep they need to prosper at the highest level.
-
I dont really believe in this argument. Arent some countries still doing well in the longer format despite focusing on the shorter formats? I read an article the other day which in my opinion hit the nail on head. If you look at county cricket, trundlers do well and get loads of wickets thanks to helpful pitches. These trundlers wouldnt stand a chance playing at the highest level yet they rule supreme in county cricket. Its all thanks to the kind of pitches which are prepared. If ECB really wants to change the state of things, it needs to start preparing pitches which are better. The batsmen are not really getting the kind of prep they need to prosper at the highest level.
fair shout. Do not actually disagree with you.
What is a 'good pitch'?? how many times do you rock up to a club and if it's a road etc go 'oh what a great pitch'... Is it though?? is a road where a batsmen with limited technique can prosper by simply hitting through the line actually be better than a sporting wicket which offers movement/bounce etc?
Now.. You are 100% right.. to far the other way and you encourage low 80's trundlers to prosper which again, doesn't help anyone.
Of course, a 'good pitch' is one that offers enough to a bowler that if you bowl in the right place, you won't go for runs and you will take wickets.. but is good enough that if you bowl in the wrong place you get smashed.. also a pitch that brings a spinner into the game , gets worse through the game (to make results more likely and make it harder to bat for draws BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE like some India sand pits etc).
Fine fine balance and groundsman will get it wrong from time to time (which is the FUN of the game, aim for the perfect pitch and natural variation will then help add in that element of difference)..
one day pitches are dire.. just flat tracks suitable for hitting only. You don't need technique/mental strength etc to survive and prosper..
scheduling games for April and sept in the main causes issues but then, the ECB is all about money so wants it's short formats in the prime months.
Ok, so some counties are 'doing well'.. but what's the quality of those teams like? What quality are they playing against? if the quality is generally worse then even if you 'win'.. you're winning far easier etc etc..
Streaming and viewing figures for test matches outstrip limited over games so the demand is there.. the problem is that people generally don't and can't afford to go to test after test for 5 days at loads of cost... but can afford a one off beer match at a ODI/2020...so do.. then people claim it's because they like it more rather than just it's more suited to people's lifestyle and finances.
How many can afford 5 days at lords compared to a ODI ticket at Lords say?? 99% of us could happily afford the one day out on the lash... very few could genuinely afford 5 days, in London.. on the lash
-
Back on topic a little. Joe Root has confirmed that Jos will play in the last test.
Which means the team/batting line up will have to be shuffled around again.
Also one of Pope or Bairstow will be dropped. Likely to be Pope as that is an easier conversation and we need Bairstow at second slip.
Tough on Pope who dug us out of a hole from 60-5 in the oval test.
-
Yes one of those two will miss out. It’s a tough call either way as Bairstow has done ok and Pope looks the best of the young batsmen.
Butler is not in form either.
Pope is missing out here I think it’s odds on
-
Dropping Pope after he top scored in the last match seems an absolutely bizarre decision. I really thought Silverwood would be a great appointment but losing faith all the time.
-
Dropping Pope after he top scored in the last match seems an absolutely bizarre decision. I really thought Silverwood would be a great appointment but losing faith all the time.
Yes…not this decision particularly but he has the knack of management speak and saying nothing at all.
I’d rather we had some plain speaking. For this decision they are playing someone who has had very little cricket and is in poor form.
I think I’d of left Butler out of this one.
-
Pope has a decent record at Old Trafford so Bairstow out for me.
-
Yes…not this decision particularly but he has the knack of management speak and saying nothing at all.
I’d rather we had some plain speaking. For this decision they are playing someone who has had very little cricket and is in poor form.
I think I’d of left Butler out of this one.
Not just this one decision but it does seem to fit a bit of a pattern of going back to players who have had plenty of opportunities and not shown anything exceptional simply because "you know what you're getting".
-
I would have told Jos to take another weeks leave personally. I would also have told Malan to spend every waking hour he has learning to be a second slip.
Given that Jos is playing any way that leave us with Pope vs Bairstow, there comes a point when you say who has the bigger upside.
Johnny has played 75 plus tests, we know what he will do.
We don't yet know what Ollie can do.
There is also Dan Lawrence in the mix.
At some point one of these young players (including the likes of Bracey) need to put their hands up and show they can do it.
Honestly England have no idea what their best team is.
-
are we all assuming that Leach has been brought in to actually play? if so Moeen becomes surplus surely? he hasnt bowled well enough and wouldnt get in the side as a batter
i would go with
Burns
Hameed
Malan
Root
Pope
Bairstow (not 100% sure on this over lawrence)
Buttler
Woakes
Robinson
Leach
Anderson
Root may have to bowl a few extra overs but would say that gives us a deeper batting lineup
-
are we all assuming that Leach has been brought in to actually play? if so Moeen becomes surplus surely? he hasnt bowled well enough and wouldnt get in the side as a batter
i would go with
Burns
Hameed
Malan
Root
Pope
Bairstow (not 100% sure on this over lawrence)
Buttler
Woakes
Robinson
Leach
Anderson
Root may have to bowl a few extra overs but would say that gives us a deeper batting lineup
Not according to the press quotes from Root. He said Mo is the number 1 spinner, Leach plays if they consider a second one.
I actually don’t know how leach gets in the team at all. Maybe he has to wait till Sri Lanka and India away.
The control Leach has makes him the number 1 in my opinion, if it’s not turning much you have to keep control, otherwise Root will continue to put our bowlers at risk of too much.
-
if we play a second spinner then we lose a batter? hasnt run scoring been one of the main problems? wasting leach's time bringing him into the squad to carry drinks. did the same with saqib
-
It would be lunacy to prepare a wicket for a game against India that requires two spinners to be selected. It doesn't come as a surprise that the stats show that England have been on top on this series when there has been lateral movement for the seamers. The two games we have lost have both been in London where the priority seems to be preparing pitches that will generate 5 days of income generation rather than giving England the best chance of winning.
-
I would have told Jos to take another weeks leave personally. I would also have told Malan to spend every waking hour he has learning to be a second slip.
Given that Jos is playing any way that leave us with Pope vs Bairstow, there comes a point when you say who has the bigger upside.
Johnny has played 75 plus tests, we know what he will do.
We don't yet know what Ollie can do.
There is also Dan Lawrence in the mix.
At some point one of these young players (including the likes of Bracey) need to put their hands up and show they can do it.
Honestly England have no idea what their best team is.
I think this encapsulates all of the issues very well. Buttler is there not on cricketing merit but because Root leans on him so hard as skipper, and his return does leave England with a horrible selection to make because whoever is left out will rightly feel aggrieved; if its Bairstow, he would be quite reasonable in saying hold on, you change my role for one game, the guy who came in had a slightly better game than me and I get burned, and if its Pope he would think what would I have to have done? It'd be lovely if Pope had gone on to three figures, or if Bairstow had done a little more than look great in making 35s in this series so that it was a clear call.
-
Nonsense it is valuable now more than ever, especially during a test series with back to back matches.
In the second innings at the oval England bowled 150 overs. Only 26 or so were bowled by Mo and about 6 by Root.
This has been the pattern of Joe's captaincy, he flogs his best bowlers, check out Jimmy's workload. Jofra is broken.
At the start of the oval test, Jimmy and Robbo looked shot. They won't make it through Manchester.
It is absolutely relevant.
Fielding for that long also breaks batsmen.
Show me a team that goes out to tire the bowlers as a strategy (Which is my point). Tiring out the bowlers happens naturally without employing a Sibley like batsman to go out and do nothing (But hey he's now dropped so that worked well). No team would ever say let's go and tire the bowlers out. Did India go out to tire the bowlers in the 2nd innings? No, they batted to their strengths and shafted the bowlers by scoring 400+.
Look, I know what you are saying in that tiring out bowlers is super important to winning test matches but my point is that you shouldn't base your strategy around this (10 runs off 150 balls is that worthwhile? Maybe in a super hot country but then spinners are usually bowling in those places).
What you're saying is that Root was more to blame for flogging his bowlers but I don't think Mo was good enough to get more overs.
@ProCricketer1982 My point about McCullum was that he played to his strengths and by the end of his career was consistently scoring well and left the NZ team in the best shape it's ever been in. Our whole cricket culture changed with him. I have no idea what they are saying to guys like Butler and Bairstow but they are obviously confused to what their roles are. When they keep failing surely you let them play to their strengths?
Anyway I think your top 6 look much better in the last test and think you should give them a good crack at it.
-
The bat time approach was rather successful for Andrew Strauss' team with Trott at 3...
-
The bat time approach was rather successful for Andrew Strauss' team with Trott at 3...
Case to be made for essentially playing 3 openers?
-
Case to be made for essentially playing 3 openers?
I think Malan is a good fit for 3. He knows how to build an innings. He could also do well in the winter. Like everyone else he needs runs. Denly before him did get runs and protected the middle order a bit…in the end a younger player got chosen which is fair enough.
To illustrate just how hard a job it is to find test match batsman Root is quoted in the Guardian today saying: we are told test cricket is the priority. He hopes it will be given a priority in the 2022 schedule-which was announced today.
I’m reading between the lines that is one frustrated and unhappy Captain, despite the smiles.
-
The bat time approach was rather successful for Andrew Strauss' team with Trott at 3...
Bat time and look to score runs. Sounds like a good strategy to me.
-
Bat time and look to score runs. Sounds like a good strategy to me.
who doesn't look to score runs? Sibley looks to score runs only he looks in set 'safe' areas.... Cook was the same was he not?? He was only better at it.
Problem again comes back to... THE PLAYERS AREN'T ACTUALLY GOOD ENOUGH TO STAY IN AND SCORE RUNS.. We have a crop of players since 2014 that quite simply (root excepted) who are either stroke makers OR billy blockers.. We simply don't have the players because the system (not just in England!) isn't good enough or set up anymore to produce these types of players.
The system is set up to produce Roy's, Hales's, Bairstow's, Buttler's, Curran's etc.. it's not set up now to produce a cook, Strauss, Trott, Atherton. Even the likes of Langer, Heyden, Smith,and Sangakkara aren't being seen.. (going to exclude the greats like Ponting/Kallis etc)
-
Bat time and look to score runs. Sounds like a good strategy to me.
I think this strategy really doesnt work in England sometimes when the ball is swinging and doing things as soon or later you will get one that moves late and gets you. Pujara for me has been a revelation in this series in that aspect how he has changed his game.
Also, all this chopping and changing and knee jerk reactions doesnt really help anyone. England needs to be patient with the youngsters and accept the fact that this team is in the process of rebuilding. Give the youngsters a good run before deciding to pull the plug. Its not like there are a lot of other better choice around.
-
I think I'd argue that Stokes is another exception to your 'hitter or blocker' rule, he's shown enough at this point that we can say he's very much capable of adapting to the match situation.
I think you have the basis of a good point though about developing test players, not trying to convert your Hales/Roy/Buttler into a Test batter. Players like Hameed, Pope, Lawrence etc should be the ones England are looking at. Leave the likes of Banton to develop into the next Hales, try and turn the ones who have shown they can compile massive red ball innings into proper test match players.
-
who doesn't look to score runs? Sibley looks to score runs only he looks in set 'safe' areas.... Cook was the same was he not?? He was only better at it.
You're right all players look to score runs. However, I think Sibley's first thought was not runs but survival. Anyway.
I think you hit the nail on the head in your third paragraph. White ball has been the focus and now this is what we have. Money for white ball players and youngsters focus on this skill over disciplined batting. Only the worlds best can transition between the formats (Root, Kohli, Smith, Warner, Williamson, Rohit, Babar) thats 7 batsman in the world. You know pretty early if you're that good and if not you should probably focus on the format that pays the most. Its also unfashionable to play in a Sibley/Pujara type way (I'm very aware that I am part of that problem). We want runs and we want them in a certain type of way at a certain strike rate. That's where we are at though in test cricket in my opinion anyway.
-
Another Covid case in the Indian camp, players isolating while further tests go on. Ah
-
Leave the likes of Banton to develop into the next Hales, try and turn the ones who have shown they can compile massive red ball innings into proper test match players.
and finally.. someone has said it.
LEAVE these players to be white ball players and leave others to be red ball. Don't try and mix and match, leave that to the preserve of only the best players. nOthing wrong with leaving Currans and co to 2020 or at a push one days and never even playing them for a county red ball side, let alone a test side.
-
Case in point, Root doesn't get into the T20 side. That should be all the proof selectors need about how hard it is to excel across formats now with the degree of specialisation required.
-
I was of this school, but Rohit has gone way better than any of our red ball only openers this summer. Nevermind in the winter.
-
ECB asked BCCI to forfeit the test as there has been one more case, BCCI says it will play if players test negative.
Looks like ECB is scared to lose another test match, LoL!
-
Cricinfo reporting India’s playing squad have all tested negative. So I doubt there will be anymore forfeiting
-
The test won’t be cancelled, players will of been protected as much as possible to lower the risk.
It’s just who gets dropped, Bairstow or Pope.
Seems obvious Pope is the junior player, it’s a hard call either way.
I actually think they might go with Pope, just a gut feeling
-
ECB asked BCCI to forfeit the test as there has been one more case, BCCI says it will play if players test negative.
Looks like ECB is scared to lose another test match, LoL!
Source for this? Because it sounds like absolute twaddle
-
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/cricket/india-in-england/ecb-wants-india-to-forfeit-5th-test-bcci-says-no-team-india-says-well-play/articleshow/86068870.cms
no sources though - so still may be twaddle :D :D
-
I've seen people refer to the Times of India as TOIlet; they then post an article later saying it's to go ahead as planned.
Clickbait journalism
-
Given the revenues at stake and that Eng have a chance to prevent series loss, not to mention the high levels of entertainment from closely fought and top quality cricket, I doubt ECB would want to call off unless absolutely needed.
I think Eng will come really hard in this game, and wouldn't be surprised if the series ends in a draw. OT is an England fortress. Don't believe this Ind team is better than the Eng team, both are quite even IMO.
Indian camp reporting niggles to several batsmen and bowlers, so interesting to see what team they field tomorrow.
-
Apparently now a few players have concerns about playing and it's very likely they don't play today.
I have tickets tomorrow, argh
-
Official, game off.
-
Such a shame! But I guess its the right decision. Cant wait for the Ashes thread to start now! :D
-
its being reported that the indian team were worried about about missing the IPL if they had to isolate, if thats true then its pretty disrespectful to the ECB and shows their feelings on test cricket.
at least they are making them forfeit it rather than call it abandoned. i think we would have won this game anyway
-
Its all hear say. Wasnt yesterday's news that ECB want India to cancel but India are keen on playing? Regarding the comment that Eng would have won the game anyways; whatever makes the fans sleep easy I guess! LoL!
-
Its all hear say. Wasnt yesterday's news that ECB want India to cancel but India are keen on playing? Regarding the comment that Eng would have won the game anyways; whatever makes the fans sleep easy I guess! LoL!
Being reported on the BBC that India refused to play, even after ECB offered to delay the start by a day, and therefore have forfeited.
Not convinced England would have won though!
-
I don’t know if we would of won but I suspect the rescheduled IPL has a huge bearing on this decision
It’s a real shame it’s been a great series
-
i would guess there are financial ramifications and there will be negotiations ongoing. have seen figures ranging from 30m upto 50m losses from broadcasting and ticket sales so the Ecb will likely being desperate to recoup as much of that as possible.
-
i would guess there are financial ramifications and there will be negotiations ongoing. have seen figures ranging from 30m upto 50m losses from broadcasting and ticket sales so the Ecb will likely being desperate to recoup as much of that as possible.
Just play two T20s instead..that shoud cover all the costs and would be good practice before the T20 world cup. It will also help Pujara make a case for himself to be included in the squad :D
-
Estimated cancelled test match 20m
IPL value to BCCI 300m
I’m doing the maths now :)
-
Wonder if they told Bairstow he was dropped or shelved that decision
-
If all players tested negative as reported and still refused to play to protect the IPL (or were directed to do so by the BCCI) it is a disgrace and India should forfeit the series not just the test.
No way I am buying tickets for the Eng Ind T20 at Old Trafford next year.
-
If all players tested negative as reported and still refused to play to protect the IPL (or were directed to do so by the BCCI) it is a disgrace and India should forfeit the series not just the test.
No way I am buying tickets for the Eng Ind T20 at Old Trafford next year.
Yes negative tests for all players is being reported.
The end of the test series and the start of the IPL looks to have been the deciding factor.
It’s a shame for us fans but money talks. International cricket is a business.
We might not like it buts it’s true.
-
surely inability to field a team is an instant forfeit? if they cannot rearrange it for 2 days later when all the test results are back
-
I think they will end up with a cancelled test, the could be a fight about it but 2-1 will stand.
It’s a damn shame we don’t have the chance to draw
-
Yes negative tests for all players is being reported.
The end of the test series and the start of the IPL looks to have been the deciding factor.
It’s a shame for us fans but money talks. International cricket is a business.
We might not like it buts it’s true.
I agree it is a business and I understand that - this to me feels like a watershed moment though for the international game/test cricket.
Here we (appear to) have explicit confirmation that franchise cricket/the IPL is now more important to the world game (or at least the most important governing body in the world game) than the deciding test of a test series between two 'big 3' nations.
It has been unsaid/rumbling under the surface for a while - but this is open acknowledgement.
-
I think they will end up with a cancelled test, the could be a fight about it but 2-1 will stand.
It’s a damn shame we don’t have the chance to draw
sad end to a really good series, i dont think indian can claim a series win though if they have effectively refused to play the final test because of the ipl
-
I agree it is a business and I understand that - this to me feels like a watershed moment though for the international game/test cricket.
Here we (appear to) have explicit confirmation that franchise cricket/the IPL is now more important to the world game (or at least the most important governing body in the world game) than the deciding test of a test series between two 'big 3' nations.
It has been unsaid/rumbling under the surface for a while - but this is open acknowledgement.
Yes totally agree with you. It’s sad I think but that is the reality.
If it’s true the medical guy for India tested positive today you would think England would cover that and use our guy.
If it meant the test went ahead.
But the risk to the IPL was too great.
I hope we get back to test cricket being important but for those of us that love that format first it’s a sad day.
-
This was of course the test that India sought at the start of the year to have moved to an earlier date
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/05/25/england-resist-request-rearrange-test-series-india-accommodate/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/05/25/england-resist-request-rearrange-test-series-india-accommodate/)
-
Looks like ECB/BCCI will try to play the fifth Test next summer
-
Looks like ECB/BCCI will try to play the fifth Test next summer
will also give old trafford a test next summer as they do not have one - so may be a decent solution all round
-
its a tough situation for the indian team, IPL and money are clearly the deciding factor here as the test was deemed safe and they still have refused to play.
I didnt realise they had already asked to move the dates of this test so they could play IPL so less sympathetic now
I like the idea of a one off test next year but i would still call this a forfeit with regards to WTC points because they could actually get a side out but have chosen not to. if they had an outbreak in the playing staff then it would be a different situation.
-
Pretty poor comments on here about India's decision. I am sure if it was the other way around, people would have been more sympathetic and supportive of the ECB's call to forfeit/cancel the test.
-
Not really, as England would have fielded a B Team like they have already done in the ODI series.
If you can't get a Team together, then you loose the match. Simple.
-
It all comes down to the idiocy and greed of the BCCI. They don’t want to risk the cash cow that is the IPL, and they didn’t consider the implications of going from no spectators to 60k+ unmasked spectators during the last England tour to India. Money talks, and it absolutely stinks. Could you imagine the fallout if England refused to play a match in India?
-
Apparently Harrison is now saying 'mental fatigue' has played a part. I mean, fair enough, but is that a valid reason for cancellation under the ICC/WTC rules?
Telegraph also reporting that the players signed a letter to the BCCI late last night refusing to play, make of that what you will...
-
I think they will end up with a cancelled test, the could be a fight about it but 2-1 will stand.
It’s a damn shame we don’t have the chance to draw
It is a forfeit. The series has been drawn.
-
Pretty poor comments on here about India's decision. I am sure if it was the other way around, people would have been more sympathetic and supportive of the ECB's call to forfeit/cancel the test.
ok, we need to wait for all the facts but appears that Indian players who all tested negative didnt want to risk missing the IPL. So hard for those spectators who have taken time off, travelled plus businesses now affected its not surprising there is negative feelings on this. No ones wins but BCCI flagged concerns early on about timing issues with rearranged IPL.
As a purist its sad to see test cricket cancelled for franchise .
Like I said maybe more facts will come out and players have symptoms etc.
-
It is a forfeit. The series has been drawn.
I agree with you but the ICC and BCCI are the same corrupt organisation now. It will at best be a rearranged game next year or at worst they will say it is classed the same as a washed out game.
-
i would guess there are financial ramifications and there will be negotiations ongoing. have seen figures ranging from 30m upto 50m losses from broadcasting and ticket sales so the Ecb will likely being desperate to recoup as much of that as possible.
How do Lancs and ECB split the ticket revenue? LCCC will lose all of the food and drink sales for the next few days which is huge. Do the ECB or LCCC seem like organisations that will have insured against this type of event?
-
I am still trying to figure out how Shastri ended up with Covid. Aren't the teams supposed to be in isolation and not interact with the general public?
CricInfo says test is back on after the Thursday's 2nd Covid results came back negative - https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/eng-vs-ind-5th-test-2021-manchester-test-to-go-ahead-as-entire-india-squad-tests-negative-1277117 (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/eng-vs-ind-5th-test-2021-manchester-test-to-go-ahead-as-entire-india-squad-tests-negative-1277117)
-
I am still trying to figure out how Shastri ended up with Covid. Aren't the teams supposed to be in isolation and not interact with the general public?
CricInfo says test is back on after the Thursday's 2nd Covid results came back negative - https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/eng-vs-ind-5th-test-2021-manchester-test-to-go-ahead-as-entire-india-squad-tests-negative-1277117 (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/eng-vs-ind-5th-test-2021-manchester-test-to-go-ahead-as-entire-india-squad-tests-negative-1277117)
That story was posted yesterday and events have superceded that report.
-
that was strange. i guess my browser picked up the old cache
-
I am still trying to figure out how Shastri ended up with Covid. Aren't the teams supposed to be in isolation and not interact with the general public?
CricInfo says test is back on after the Thursday's 2nd Covid results came back negative - https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/eng-vs-ind-5th-test-2021-manchester-test-to-go-ahead-as-entire-india-squad-tests-negative-1277117 (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/eng-vs-ind-5th-test-2021-manchester-test-to-go-ahead-as-entire-india-squad-tests-negative-1277117)
There was no bio bubble/isolation it seems, just a letter in beginning of series from bcci to be careful/use judgement which doesn't clearly tell what to do/not to do. Still Sastry should have avoided the book event if he used his judgement.
Heard that cry baby Kohli was the one who chickened out and not willing to play. Initially bcci was open to idea of kohli "resting" if he wasn't comfortable but then knowing Kohli, he must have persuaded others to not play so he doesn't come across as bad (just my assumption based on way things played out). Sad state of affairs if that is the case.
Also read that the next year's replacement test will be a one off test if it happens, so wouldn't be a decider for this series.
-
news starting to come out of the england camp that they are fuming with the BCCI and prepared to take this as far as possible to force a forfeit and get compensation from them. Dont see it getting far with the ICC though unfortunately.
I dont blame the indian players for not wanting to miss out on a massive payday but this just demonstrates the lack of respect they have for any other team, i cant imagine Dhoni refusing to play because he didnt have enough physios in the setup
-
And to think that Kohli publicly says test is most important format for him.
-
The bio bubbles have had to be a bit relaxed we all know that from the stress on the players during the home series last time round.
So the players have to be cared for as a priority-all basic stuff.
So to a certain extent you have to use your judgement.
Attending a book signing event where this all started is not using common sense.
In fact it’s brain dead stupid.
-
Attending a book signing event where this all started is not using common sense.
In fact it’s brain dead stupid.
What "book signing event"?
-
What "book signing event"?
Google search returns several results. Even Kohli was in the event, and the physio returned positive test 4 days after initial group tested positive, so maybe that's why some players are scared.
https://www.firstpost.com/firstcricket/sports-news/bcci-reportedly-miffed-with-kohli-shastri-for-attending-crowded-book-launch-event-9953191.html (https://www.firstpost.com/firstcricket/sports-news/bcci-reportedly-miffed-with-kohli-shastri-for-attending-crowded-book-launch-event-9953191.html)
-
Both Kohli-Sastry must have had brain fade to attend such an event. Can't imagine carelessness levels of even those in important positions.
-
There was no bio bubble/isolation it seems, just a letter in beginning of series from bcci to be careful/use judgement which doesn't clearly tell what to do/not to do. Still Sastry should have avoided the book event if he used his judgement.
Heard that cry baby Kohli was the one who chickened out and not willing to play. Initially bcci was open to idea of kohli "resting" if he wasn't comfortable but then knowing Kohli, he must have persuaded others to not play so he doesn't come across as bad (just my assumption based on way things played out). Sad state of affairs if that is the case.
Also read that the next year's replacement test will be a one off test if it happens, so wouldn't be a decider for this series.
Wow...you seem to have all the insider info. Amazing!! :D
Did Kohli call you and informed you that he was chickening out?
Shame on all the people here who are bad mouthing BCCI and the Indian players. Just goes to show how insensitive people can be. Stuff happens. Shastri didnt catch the virus on purpose. In these times, the least people can do is be sensitive to such things.
There have been cases in the Indian camp and they dont want to play. Period. Deal with it!
-
Wow...you seem to have all the insider info. Amazing!! :D
Did Kohli call you and informed you that he was chickening out?
Shame on all the people here who are bad mouthing BCCI and the Indian players. Just goes to show how insensitive people can be. Stuff happens. Shastri didnt catch the virus on purpose. In these times, the least people can do is be sensitive to such things.
There have been cases in the Indian camp and they dont want to play. Period. Deal with it!
There was news article yesterday that stated mainly one senior player was particularly scared to not play. Today it was revealed that the senior player was Kohli.
-
Google search returns several results. Even Kohli was in the event, and the physio returned positive test 4 days after initial group tested positive, so maybe that's why some players are scared.
https://www.firstpost.com/firstcricket/sports-news/bcci-reportedly-miffed-with-kohli-shastri-for-attending-crowded-book-launch-event-9953191.html (https://www.firstpost.com/firstcricket/sports-news/bcci-reportedly-miffed-with-kohli-shastri-for-attending-crowded-book-launch-event-9953191.html)
I didn't have the entire context nor parties (Shastri/Kohli) involved to search for. Thanks for sharing this.
-
I didn't have the entire context nor parties (Shastri/Kohli) involved to search for. Thanks for sharing this.
No worries, I wasn't trying to say you could have searched yourself. I was just pointing source of the link I provided.
-
I think the Indians just got spooked and I can't really blame them to be honest. Is it not possible to get Covid and not show a positive test immediately? I thought there was an incubation period for this virus. What of a player shows a positive test mid test and became seriously ill?Ramifications would be huge.
It's a massive shame and such a sad way for the series to end, but to start picking out individual Indian players and point the finger of blame is a bit harsh and unnecessary tbh.
-
I think the Indians just got spooked and I can't really blame them to be honest. Is it not possible to get Covid and not show a positive test immediately? I thought there was an incubation period for this virus. What of a player shows a positive test mid test and became seriously ill?Ramifications would be huge.
It's a massive shame and such a sad way for the series to end, but to start picking out individual Indian players and point the finger of blame is a bit harsh and unnecessary tbh.
Fair enough, sometimes the frustration of cancelled match can take a toll on us fans too :D but ya, need to be sensitive on these things as we don't know the full story from what is put out in public.
-
No point taking the risk with Covid. Just cancel and move onto the next series.
-
No point taking the risk with Covid. Just cancel concede and move onto the next series.
Corrected.
-
Corrected.
Did England concede/forfeit the ODI's that were postponed in SA?
-
Did England concede/forfeit the ODI's that were postponed in SA?
Totally different scenario at the time. The first vaccine was only just going through the approval process, the world has changed since then.
-
If this pandemic stays with us much longer, expect either shorter tours or multi-team tours where different format squads would "bubble"/quarantine for individual format schedules.
I suspect those physios have spread Corona virus to team players and many are expected to test positive in next few days.
-
Corrected.
Does it make a difference? India have won the series. This feels like England fans searching for any small morsel of hope in this team suddenly playing another freak game and actually winning. India have played better excluding for one extraordinary knock by Root
-
If this pandemic stays with us much longer, expect either shorter tours or multi-team tours where different format squads would "bubble"/quarantine for individual format schedules.
I suspect those physios have spread Corona virus to team players and many are expected to test positive in next few days.
I mean, it should be different squads anyway as the formats are now so wildly different. As for the positive cases, I agree.. just a matter of time now before a few more test positive.
-
I mean, it should be different squads anyway as the formats are now so wildly different.
As a matter of practicality but not mandated (i.e. exclusivity); it'd be a shame to see Ben Stokes playing only one format.
A smart team manager would just create three separate teams and run them as separate entities. It is great that Eoin Morgan only plays white ball cricket.
-
There was news article yesterday that stated mainly one senior player was particularly scared to not play. Today it was revealed that the senior player was Kohli.
India would have been 3-1 in this series if not for the 1st test washed out (needed 150 odd runs with 9 wickets remaining) which everyone conveniently forgot. So saying that Kohli was scared to play this test knowing fully well Anderson/Robinson already broken down from the last test and England was playing to salvage is laughable tbh
-
India would have been 3-1 in this series if not for the 1st test washed out (needed 150 odd runs with 9 wickets remaining) which everyone conveniently forgot. So saying that Kohli was scared to play this test knowing fully well Anderson/Robinson already broken down from the last test and England was playing to salvage is laughable tbh
Never said Kohli scared to play due to fear of losing. All fear is from covid/ipl revenues impact.
-
Does it make a difference? India have won the series. This feels like England fans searching for any small morsel of hope in this team suddenly playing another freak game and actually winning. India have played better excluding for one extraordinary knock by Root
Won?
If you can't field a Team to play a fixture, then that is a concession. So the true series result is a draw, which I'm also aware is a good outcome for the England Team and therefor retain the Pataudi Trophy.
-
Shows how desperate things have got for our test match side that some fans cling to the hope of a concession in order to draw a home series.
England really are bang average these days.
-
Worrying how subservient people are becoming to accept giving away results, without the opposition actually wining it.
-
If this pandemic stays with us much longer, expect either shorter tours or multi-team tours where different format squads would "bubble"/quarantine for individual format schedules.
I suspect those physios have spread Corona virus to team players and many are expected to test positive in next few days.
Shorter tours? Great NZ will have 0 test matches from now on.
-
Never said Kohli scared to play due to fear of losing. All fear is from covid/ipl revenues impact.
Think the IPL impact might be far fetched as well. Covid is genuinely scary and for teams in a bubble, getting it and passing it on is probably the factor. They lost revenues already last year postponing IPL cause of cases. Last thing they want is a repeat of the episode
-
Shorter tours? Great NZ will have 0 test matches from now on.
2022 home schedule looks pretty packed but there is a 3 match test series against NZ.
We don’t play New Zealand enough so this is welcome news for 2022.
-
Didn't the same thing happen with Eng Vs SA last year..don't think there was so much discussion here at that moment :). Its a shame that this fascinating series ended/paused this way but Covid is a reality now and everyone needs to acknowledge that even with the best will in the world such cases would be inevitable sometimes. India already wanted to bring forward this test but ECB couldn't because of 'The Hundred' so don't think IPL argument is viable as ECB did the same.
Personally was looking very forward to watching this test and took a Friday off for the same reason but not to be.
-
Didn't the same thing happen with Eng Vs SA last year..don't think there was so much discussion here at that moment :). Its a shame that this fascinating series ended/paused this way but Covid is a reality now and everyone needs to acknowledge that even with the best will in the world such cases would be inevitable sometimes. India already wanted to bring forward this test but ECB couldn't because of 'The Hundred' so don't think IPL argument is viable as ECB did the same.
Personally was looking very forward to watching this test and took a Friday off for the same reason but not to be.
The same thing didn’t happen with Eng v SA as both sets of players in this match has negative results, so they are, we’re, clear to play. They are double jabbed which they weren’t in that previous series.
The end of this series was too close to risk the Indian players in the IPL and that’s the reason they wanted the firth test brought forward.
There’s now a question on if the insurance will pay out as all players were negative, Lancashire are refunding 95000 tickets, not to mention catering and everything else.
You’re quite right thou, players must be protected, in a series this financially viable why the senior Indian management thought it ok to attend a book signing with excess of 100 people in attendance.
That takes some getting your head around.
-
For once, I find myself applauding Michael Vaughan for being outspoken. :o
-
For once, I find myself applauding Michael Vaughan for being outspoken. :o
Yes me too. Double first we agree
Haha :)
-
However way this is handled by ICC, it will set a precedent for multiple future Test series. If players are not sick but refused to play because of a dressing room infection, is that a forfeited game or cancelled game? Lot of new scenarios need to be discussed by ICC.
-
This is still going on?? Just let it go English fans! Indian players have the right to choose if they are concerned about their well being (mental, physical and financial). Regarding the book event, I do agree that it could have been avoided, but it was not as if they were breaking any rules. The country has removed almost all Covid restrictions, stadiums are fully packed with fans, players are doing trips with their families during the breaks. None of them were breaking any rules. It was just an unfortunate incident.
I wonder why English players have withdrawn from the IPL though. I dont see the reasoning behind that.
-
This is still going on?? Just let it go English fans! Indian players have the right to choose if they are concerned about their well being (mental, physical and financial). Regarding the book event, I do agree that it could have been avoided, but it was not as if they were breaking any rules. The country has removed almost all Covid restrictions, stadiums are fully packed with fans, players are doing trips with their families during the breaks. None of them were breaking any rules. It was just an unfortunate incident.
I wonder why English players have withdrawn from the IPL though. I dont see the reasoning behind that.
Woakes and Malan pulled out because they are now in England squads that they weren't expecting to be when they signed, not sure about Bairstow
-
This is still going on?? Just let it go English fans! Indian players have the right to choose if they are concerned about their well being (mental, physical and financial). Regarding the book event, I do agree that it could have been avoided, but it was not as if they were breaking any rules. The country has removed almost all Covid restrictions, stadiums are fully packed with fans, players are doing trips with their families during the breaks. None of them were breaking any rules. It was just an unfortunate incident.
I wonder why English players have withdrawn from the IPL though. I dont see the reasoning behind that.
I understand concerns over wellbieng etc but if that was the case why did some Indian players fly straight out to the IPL bubble the next day? If wellbeing a genuine concern I would have expected some to take a break from cricket and spend time with families not go straight into another tournament.
-
Let it go England fans.
England were the poorer team in a series with two poor teams (but overall the series was quite good fun as both sides and random good knocks/bowling spells and devastating dire performances too so neither side can claim to be much cop). Sure England COULD have won the last game and drawn the series but then, India COULD have thrashed England yet again and took a devastating 3-1 win.
With Covid now being totally ignored by the country now it's leaving this sort of thing wide open and you can't blame players for taking the option of safety first. IF the ICC tried to play hard ball the BCCI could just stick two fingers up anyway, plus, you can't prove the players were wrong and who in their right mind is going to punish people for being wary of Covid. Naturally like all sportsmen/business you can raise an eyebrow and go 'yeah, that PR is a load of tosh' but then.. well... 99.9% of PR is tosh and made up rubbish so what's new?
Good to see some England players pull out of the IPL, hopefully it's to concentrate on some England games (of one format or another).
-
For once, I find myself applauding Michael Vaughan for being outspoken. :o
Me too!
Will be interesting to see if this can be resolved without further fall out. It was woefully naive of England and Austrlia to push through the BCCI's governance reforms to the ICC back in 2014 as well as hugely damaging to the game as a whole but it seems rather naive of India now to think that they can walk away in the middle of a series to guarantee player availability for the IPL
-
Fifth Test confirmed to be played in July 2022 at Birmingham
-
Fifth Test confirmed to be played in July 2022 at Birmingham
This will be good for England as Stokes should be back by then and hopefully some of the young talent can cement their place in the top order after Ashes experience. Also Eng bowling unit was mostly tired out by the 5th test, so a fresh unit in July can make a big difference.
-
Lets be honest though, India should have played the final match this summer but were the de facto winners of the series due to their lead and having played by far the better cricket.
This proposal of some kind of one-off decider is a massive wet blanket that bears no resemblance to a test match "series".
I would much rather see England play a one-off test against Ireland or Afghanistan and think this would be much better for world cricket.
-
Lets be honest though, India should have played the final match this summer but were the de facto winners of the series due to their lead and having played by far the better cricket.
This proposal of some kind of one-off decider is a massive wet blanket that bears no resemblance to a test match "series".
I would much rather see England play a one-off test against Ireland or Afghanistan and think this would be much better for world cricket.
This! Afghanistan or Ireland would have been much better for world cricket
Although India should have forfeited the 5th test
They couldn't raise a side.. it happens all over at club level... You can't raise a side, you forfeit and the oppo gets the points
-
I am also a little underwhelmed by a one off test played a year after the rest of the series. Obviously the Indian players were worried about not being against for the IPL which was the priority. It would have been better for them to forfeit the test then if the BCCI felt they needed to offer something to rebuilt relations, have an extended one day series in 2022
-
Don't even get me started on this Edgbaston fiasco, it's genuinely really pi**ed me off.
Bought tickets for the Friday, as we do every single year - must've done so for the last 10 years now. It's annually a joint birthday/Xmas present to my father and we go religiously. I don't live locally to my family anymore so spending genuine quality time with them is quite a rarity, so it's a fairly significant thing for us.
We've now been told that with the SA test being switched with IND, and inexplicably the change of dates, our tickets are now for the Saturday not Friday. Bearing in mind a pretty large number of people who go on a Friday do so to avoid missing cricket on a Saturday.
It just smacks of how out of touch the ECB really are with the modern day fan - just one look on any of the social media posts tells you everything you need to know. Our only option now is to refund all 7 tickets I've bought, and hope that I somehow manage to pick up some Friday tickets in a mini-resale they're having (not holding out much hope!).
Oh and to top it off, there's disclaimer to say re-booked tickets might cost more as the pricing structure has changed - couldn't make it up!
-
It gets even better! I've just applied for the refund and it's saying to allow up to 28 days to receive the refund (~£500).
The re-sale for new tickets is next Monday... pure incompetence.
-
Don't even get me started on this Edgbaston fiasco, it's genuinely really pi**ed me off.
Bought tickets for the Friday, as we do every single year - must've done so for the last 10 years now. It's annually a joint birthday/Xmas present to my father and we go religiously. I don't live locally to my family anymore so spending genuine quality time with them is quite a rarity, so it's a fairly significant thing for us.
We've now been told that with the SA test being switched with IND, and inexplicably the change of dates, our tickets are now for the Saturday not Friday. Bearing in mind a pretty large number of people who go on a Friday do so to avoid missing cricket on a Saturday.
It just smacks of how out of touch the ECB really are with the modern day fan - just one look on any of the social media posts tells you everything you need to know. Our only option now is to refund all 7 tickets I've bought, and hope that I somehow manage to pick up some Friday tickets in a mini-resale they're having (not holding out much hope!).
Oh and to top it off, there's disclaimer to say re-booked tickets might cost more as the pricing structure has changed - couldn't make it up!
Glad you mentioned this Adam. I'm in the same boat and won't be going on Saturday. Didn't even register the day.
-
Yeah I didn't realise to start with, saw the change of teams and just assumed it'd be the same dates - really is such an inexplicable move to change the dates. But then they know they'll easily sell the refunded tickets to Indian fans.
Feel for anyone who's booked non-refundable hotels etc
-
I’m one of those with unrefundable hotel rooms booked. Can change the dates for an astronomical fee but one of the party can’t go to the new dates and to be honest I’m a bit disillusioned with it all a bit so I don’t particularly want to go either now. Just going to get a refund on the tickets and take the hit on the hotel I think.
-
I’m one of those with unrefundable hotel rooms booked. Can change the dates for an astronomical fee but one of the party can’t go to the new dates and to be honest I’m a bit disillusioned with it all a bit so I don’t particularly want to go either now. Just going to get a refund on the tickets and take the hit on the hotel I think.
Sorry to hear that mate, might be worth posting on some of the cricket FB groups about the hotel - sure there'll be someone that wants the room for what you paid. The whole thing is just another smack in the face for us fans.
-
Right the series finishes at Edgbaston this week.
The games come thick and fast for England at the moment.
India have a few questions over their line up with Shama out with Covid and KL Rahul injured. Will Kohli get the arm band or will Bumrah or Pujara get a go...
England are on a crazy roll, but will they be able to continue to smash everything against the Indian attack?
-
I do not fancy Crawley's chances against that India attack, although I can see that bringing in someone else for a one off game is a bit of a hiding to nothing.
If Stokes can learn to temper the aggression a touch as Bairstow has done so effectively then that England middle order is the match of just about anyone on its day.
-
With the way Eng are playing as well as the form (lack of) of most Indian batsmen, the series is drawn already. The way Eng are playing, must say Test cricket is getting even more interesting! With next generation players all brought up on T20, it had to happen.
-
As well as we played NZ seemed a bowler short and one out injured for the last match the Indian attack is decent.
One off game would help us but I think it could be a closer game. Anderson back and Potts looks pretty good to me.
The 90 mph Overton didn’t happen although he is brisk it’s no different to Potts.
Crawley….well he has the shots but could be last chance. Lawrence did not do much wrong but for an opening spot I think Sibley may be worth another chance looking at him and Burns maybe more potential with Sibley. He got a hundred today as well.
-
Potts was operating around 81/82 I thought, Overton was mid-high 80s from what I saw.
-
Possibly a bit quicker but don’t see much in it. Overton has the height but I think Potts is a real find for us.
Looks to pitch it up and def done one of the New Zealanders for pace LBW.
Seems to have a good attitude too, smiles and gets in with it.
I’m impressed
-
Didn't like them using Overton to bang it in short personally, feels a waste.
-
Im never much a fan of the tactic, unless the batsman has a weakness against the short ball - the idea of bowling six mid trackers an over to someone who can play the short ball in the hope that they won't quite middle one is a bit shithouse in my opinion.
But id rather see Jamie O bowl those over than Wor Sturks.
-
Bumrah to captain India at Edgbaston.
-
Billings retains his spot - Foakes still has covid
Anderson replaced J Overton.
-
Think id have been minded to bring Brook in rather than Billings.
-
Could be wrong but I think they must replace like for like keeper
Brook bats and bowls is he another that can keep as well?
-
Could be wrong but I think they must replace like for like keeper
Brook bats and bowls is he another that can keep as well?
What? It's a new match! They can pick who they like.
-
Brook is not a wicketkeeper and bowls only occasionally.
They could have considered playing him, but Bairstow would have kept.
-
What? It's a new match! They can pick who they like.
I could well be wrong but I read Foakes still has covid so the obvious replacement would be Billings from the last test if Foakes does not recover
So they really had to include Billings
I could well be wrong thou
-
Brook is not a wicketkeeper and bowls only occasionally.
They could have considered playing him, but Bairstow would have kept.
Exactly. Not my preferred long term solution, but id rather have a look at Brook in thevtest arena than at Billings.
-
I could well be wrong but I read Foakes still has covid so the obvious replacement would be Billings from the last test if Foakes does not recover
So they really had to include Billings
I could well be wrong thou
He is recovering from Covid. But it is no differerent to if he was unfit for any other reason. Or if they just didn't want to pick him. They can pick who they want.
It had to be 'like for like' when he was substituted in the last match. But that has no bearing on this one.
-
Could be wrong but I think they must replace like for like keeper
You're having a laugh surely? This is not just a different match but a different series!
-
He is recovering from Covid. But it is no differerent to if he was unfit for any other reason. Or if they just didn't want to pick him. They can pick who they want.
It had to be 'like for like' when he was substituted in the last match. But that has no bearing on this one.
Yes of course that’s right, I got my covid replacement rules mixed up. What I was trying to say is it makes sense if Foakes does not recover for Billings to be the 12th man because I thought it was like for like.
Yes Bairstow could keep to have a look at Brook maybe, but I think England now want him as a specialist batter.
-
Would be nuts to change anything with Bairstow in this purple patch.
-
Bairstow looks in the best form of his career, I'd definitely leave him at 5!
-
Why did they start at 10.30?
-
Why did they start at 10.30?
For Indian TV viewers.
-
If Gilchrist’s parents and de Villiers’ parents had a hybrid child that child would be Rishabh Pant. What an incredible player.
-
If Gilchrist’s parents and de Villiers’ parents had a hybrid child that child would be Rishabh Pant. What an incredible player.
:D :D
-
338-7 off 73 overs…4.63 economy. 11 overs lost due to terrible over rate…
Pant 146
Jadeja 83 not out
Anderson and Potts decent with the new ball.
Leach back to usual just plain awful. No courage against Pant at all.
ICC needs to do something about crap over rates. People pay money to watch 90 overs. Yet they get conned every time.
-
10.30AM is not a time to start a match. Should have been started by 9.30AM, broadcasting companies (Indian company Sony Networks probably) are dictating terms for match timings IMO.
-
Warney’s ‘Rockstar’ proving he’s the real deal.
-
Stuart Broad had conceded 35 runs in an over - an unwanted world record
-
5/98 India end up 416.
Anderson 5 wickets
-
How can someone with Broad's experience be that brainless? Astonishing.
-
Don’t get the bang it in to the middle against the tail
We want to get them out mid off and mid on back and bowl straight at the stumps!
Baffling
-
The plan goes completely out of the window when we get to the tail, it's so unusual to see them keep doing this over and over.
-
Broad is an absolute moron when he wants to be
-
Crawley has no future at test level.
-
Crawley I think needs a period back in County cricket to just get some scores together.
-
Lees with 3 low scores in a row, Crawley useless once again. I get that it would be tough putting someone in against India but surely this is the last we see of Zak for a long time.
-
Zak Crawley since his fluked that 267 Pakistan
33 innings
1 hundred
2 fifties
4 ducks
20 single figure scores
18.24 average.
Aside from a century on a slab of cement in the Caribbean, Crawley offers absolutely nothing.
-
Zak Crawley since his fluked that 267 Pakistan
33 innings
1 hundred
2 fifties
4 ducks
20 single figure scores
18.24 average.
Aside from a century on a slab of cement in the Caribbean, Crawley offers absolutely nothing.
He needs to go back to Kent and get some runs under his belt. From what I have seen in my opinion he has the talent. Ramprakash on BBC is saying he needs technical work and a coach to help him-which I think is spot on.
There has not been a batsmen in Test history who has fluked a big double ton, Crawleys number don’t add up currently so England probably will look elsewhere for the SA series.
-
Crawley averages 31 in first class cricket, basically indicating he’s just not very good. If he genuinely wants to improve he needs to play his red ball domestic cricket at a test venue.
As for fluking a double hundred, we seen Crawley do it…
-
Fluke is probably a bit harsh, but Crawley's technique is in bits and he needs serious time with a top batting coach. He's not the same player who got the double hundred.
-
Pope looks good against Southee’s 120kph servings. Hapless against Bumrah
-
Pope looks good against Southee’s 120kph servings. Hapless against Bumrah
Southee and Boult are among the best you can get. I wouldn't underrate any performance against them.
-
Southee and Boult are among the best you can get. I wouldn't underrate any performance against them.
There’s a big different between feasting on medium pacers and genuine fast bowler.
Pope was hopeless in the ashes and hapless today. Pace sorts the good from the hype.
-
There’s a big different between feasting on medium pacers and genuine fast bowler.
Pope was hopeless in the ashes and hapless today. Pace sorts the good from the hype.
Don’t remember the Aussies looking that great against Archer, the medium pace Broad has Warners number memorised.
Crawley needs a break from the spit light and as has been mentioned go back to his coach or find a coach and work on what’s needed at the very top level.
He averages 31 in county cricket when all the talk was of wickets that were tailored for medium pace 70-80mph county bowlers and since the ECB and ground men have been working together a lot more he has hardly played. He has also played all his test cricket against Australia away, India home and away, SA Away, West Indies away, NZ home and Pakistan home so played all his test cricket against the established and top crop of international test cricket of which 3 of these have arguable the top new ball bowlers in the world in Cummins, Hazelwood, Boult, Bumra, etc.
Not making excuses but give a young lad some slack. He needs a break and see when he comes back how he performs then but he needs some support from a coach
-
So Crawley should be given leeway because he’s been exposed by the best international attacks…fine if you think an average of 18 is acceptable?
And as for the flatter pitches in the county championship, Crawley averages 30 in division 1 this year.
He’s just a very average player.
-
Don’t remember the Aussies looking that great against Archer, the medium pace Broad has Warners number memorised.
Crawley needs a break from the spit light and as has been mentioned go back to his coach or find a coach and work on what’s needed at the very top level.
He averages 31 in county cricket when all the talk was of wickets that were tailored for medium pace 70-80mph county bowlers and since the ECB and ground men have been working together a lot more he has hardly played. He has also played all his test cricket against Australia away, India home and away, SA Away, West Indies away, NZ home and Pakistan home so played all his test cricket against the established and top crop of international test cricket of which 3 of these have arguable the top new ball bowlers in the world in Cummins, Hazelwood, Boult, Bumra, etc.
Not making excuses but give a young lad some slack. He needs a break and see when he comes back how he performs then but he needs some support from a coach
Def agree with this, County Championship averages are not the be all and end all of assessing a player, tres and Vaughan would never of played if that was the case.
We’ve seen some players in recent time have time out and work on their game, Crawley is getting out the same way, he’s young and has the shots.
Long term we have to start backing these young batsman and work with them.
I think he has the talent to do well, but needs some work on his game for now.
-
Not winning this game then
-
Not winning this game then
Eng have recovered from similar positions and gone on to win vs NZ, and the two architects of those comebacks are still there. So nothing off the table anytime soon.
-
Chatting to lads on the actual county circuit. Crawley and Pope are the lads at your clubs that are just far too good to be playing that level and that’s from across all the counties apparently. I’m sure there time will come to shine on the international circuit… even if it isn’t now and it’s after a break for Crawley. The guy has scored plenty and destroyed attacks in the past.
I also want to see him at three rather than open 👍
-
Def agree with this, County Championship averages are not the be all and end all of assessing a player, tres and Vaughan would never of played if that was the case.
We’ve seen some players in recent time have time out and work on their game, Crawley is getting out the same way, he’s young and has the shots.
Long term we have to start backing these young batsman and work with them.
I think he has the talent to do well, but needs some work on his game for now.
I agree to a point, but picking him right now is just unkind, he is so out of form (I mean I saw him play a T20 for Kent at Lords between tests and he made some bang average seamers look like a peak period West Indies)
But it shouldnt be Terminal, they need to work with him.
And on the meantime, find a way to get Harry Brook in the side. He's a different level of of player.
-
I agree to a point, but picking him right now is just unkind, he is so out of form (I mean I saw him play a T20 for Kent at Lords between tests and he made some bang average seamers look like a peak period West Indies)
But it shouldnt be Terminal, they need to work with him.
And on the meantime, find a way to get Harry Brook in the side. He's a different level of of player.
Yes totally agree. The SA series is 6 weeks away, I think England will want Crawley to play as much County cricket as he can.
One of the problems is he is too loose for an opener, so a replacement probably will be another opener, maybe Sibley again is an option. Less extravagant and more defensive.
The problem with Brook or Bohannon to name 2 is unless they open a re jig in the order is difficult to see.
I actually think Crawley has more chance at 4 or 5- but there’s no space.
I cannot see a spot for Brook for the next series. Highly rated I would agree with you, but where does he fit in.
Crawley is not the only one, Lees is just starting out in the side but finding pace and movement is different in tests than County
-
I see that Kohli's verbals to Bairstow have backfired a bit
-
Stokes gets dropped twice from absolute dollies. Continued to slog. Gets caught by a flying Bumrah.
-
Bairstow goes after getting 106. Keeps England in the game. 241-7
-
Pathetic from Broad, wild hack and throws his wicket away. 248-8
-
England reach 284 all out. India’s lead is 132. Essentially Pant’s innings is the difference so far.
-
That ball has surely grassed. Awful
-
That ball has surely grassed. Awful
Clips look like it bounced, very strange decision...
-
4-1 Gill out after 3 balls. This guy isn’t an opener.
-
Gill is another Anderson bunny
-
4-1 Gill out after 3 balls. This guy isn’t an opener.
Gill stays side on and doesn't get behind the ball. Don't see him succeeding in swinging conditions as opener. He may score maybe at 5/6 in Bairstow type role, but not as opener.
-
India 125-3 at stumps. Pujara 50 not out. Pant 30 not out but was dropped off the final ball of the day.
India lead by 257 runs.
16 overs lost due to terrible over rates
Seems to be some variable bounce as well
-
Pujara slaps a Broad long hop to Lees in the gully 152-4.
-
Very unlike Pujara, maybe the bit of luck England need to stay in this game.
-
190-5 Iyer bounced out by Potts
Pant with another fifty
-
198-6 Pant out to Leach - lead is 330
Seems to be taking turn
-
Awful shots by Iyer and Pant, Pujara gifted his wicket away too. I predict we will struggle getting the tail out and they will an impossible target for us to chase.
-
Another gift
-
I know it worked with Thakur but why are they so keen on this short ball nonsense?
-
227-7 at lunch - lead is 361
Leach got Pant, more a donation, but he’s totally unthreatening. Bowls too short.
-
230-8 Shami bounced out by Stokes
-
Leach should’ve had Bumrah LBW. England didn’t review...
-
To be fair nobody is going to give that out on the field; didn't look like straightening like that!
-
236-9 Jadeja bowled by Stokes.
-
245 all out. Stokes 4 wickets
Target 377
-
This has been quite the start
-
Confidence is infectious it seems, Lees has been excellent so far.
-
When Crawley gets going, he is gorgeous to watch.
-
Talk about the Kiss of death guys
-
absolute brain fade!
another question though, are both teams starting to take the pi55 with all the ball changes? seems as soon as the swing stops they cry until the umpires get bored of hearing about it and give them one that does. cant say that Crawley would have been bowled by the ball they had swapped out
-
Jesus Christ
-
Eng making big 4th innings chases look easy, not once but many times against decent bowling attacks. Have to give it to Mccullum to bring about this level of change after the Ashes drubbing. I thought he will bring about a positive change but never expected it ll be this immediate. Shows how important the coach still is. Even though technique wise he doesn't do much at this level, the environment, temperament and strategy he brings to the table is far more important than any technique changes just a pure technical specialist can bring about.
Next Ashes gonna be really exciting, who knows, it could even be an Aussie drubbing if Lees/Crawley/Pope get going by then in addition to Root, JB, Stokes.
-
These two, oh God
-
Anyone still want to drop Jonny?
-
This all seems a bit random, does it not. I don't ascribe to the "we hate Jonny" view espoused by many on here, but I also think that if he is to return to the Test side, unless common sense has prevailed and he is taking the gloves back, in which case batting form is slightly less relevant, then he ought to be told to go and dominate in County cricket. He has not played any first class cricket since India, so throwing him in just risks causing more uncertainty as to whether he is good enough.
Anyone not sure if he's good enough?
-
Anyone not sure if he's good enough?
You'd have got pretty good odds on Bairstow scoring zip when that comment was first posted like. I don't think last summer anyone was saying Bairstow would come out and go on this kind of hot streak in 2022.
-
Funny, Bracey was such a popular pick!
I'd back Simpson or Ben Brown to do a decent short-term job, if needed.
But we're still hoping Bairstow will rediscover his batting, aren't we?
I, at least, held out hope.
-
Next Ashes gonna be really exciting, who knows
I would hope McCullum would be encouraging the players to treat the Ashes like any other series.
-
I, at least, held out hope.
Fair play, although it's a bit of a step from "rediscover his batting" to the all-time high that this purple patch represents.
-
Chasing nearly 400 last is some going so don’t want to put any negatives but it seems from the radio where normally you would expect pitches like Trent bridge and edgbaston to deteriorate that have not done on days 4 and 5. They don’t seem to spin that much either.
So yes fantastic from us but with balls going soft and out of shape pretty quick, these last 2 wickets have been good for batting till the end.
-
Anyone not sure if he's good enough?
Im impressed, if a little concerned about your mental health, that you traced up a year old comment to use out of context here. Go you!
-
Give it a rest, eh? You don't know much.
-
absolute brain fade!
another question though, are both teams starting to take the pi55 with all the ball changes? seems as soon as the swing stops they cry until the umpires get bored of hearing about it and give them one that does. cant say that Crawley would have been bowled by the ball they had swapped out
This year's batch of Dukes balls is getting very poor feedback across the range. Going soft and not holding their shape. Of course it is a tactic to try and get the ball changed if it isn't moving, but they only succeed in that if the ball has actually lost shape which is happening
One issue given the way the ball is being flayed around this summer is that the replacements are in better condition than the balls they replace when they should be like for like
-
I, at least, held out hope.
At the end of the day everyone here is hopeful that the England test side do well. Yes, everyone has their favourites and it's fair enough to not be a fan of certain players but this team under Silverwood was not performing even close to the level they are currently at.
-
Witnessing greatness...AGAIN
-
Obscene! This hasn't been slogging in anyway. Sensible batting, just putting away the bad ball and creating opportunities to score. India haven't bowled well and some dubious field placings, but that's taking nothing away from England. Pure class!
-
Bet India wish they'd just conceded this game now rather than crying until they got their way.
-
So good and a true pleasure to watch, thank you England.
-
Bet India wish they'd just conceded this game now rather than crying until they got their way.
Not sure this comment was needed to be honest. We got to witness a great match and we should be happy about that.
-
Bet India wish they'd just conceded this game now rather than crying until they got their way.
wonder if the indian players thought it was worth running away to the ipl money now, prob would have won if they had stayed
-
Not sure this comment was needed to be honest. We got to witness a great match and we should be happy about that.
A great match yes, but the series should have been done and dusted last year.
-
A great match yes, but the series should have been done and dusted last year.
England SHOULD have toured Pakistan last year but withdrew last minute due to fictional security concerns. Don't think they are in any position to sling mud at the Indians on this occasion.
-
Whatever the rights and wrongs of India cutting short of series already being played to play in the IPL there were two good teams competing and at least the result will shut Kholi up for a while
The bloke is an absolute bell end
-
Whatever the rights and wrongs of India cutting short of series already being played to play in the IPL there were two good teams competing and at least the result will shut Kholi up for a while
The bloke is an absolute bell end
They withdrew from the final Test due to having 7 members of the touring party in isolation with Covid-19. Fair grounds not to play in my opinion.
Agree on Virat though and you can throw Siraj and Bumrah in that category aswell after some in-the-batsmans face send offs in this match (although not in the 2nd innings, well bowled Siraj)
If you want a real conspiracy theory - how about Foakes positive covid Test whilst already suffering from a back injury which allowed England to bring in Billings for the remainder of the match rather than give Bairstow the gloves and bat with 10. A very handy coincidence indeed.
-
You have seen 1 plus 1 and made 12 there.
Stokes has been clear Foakes is the number 1, plus he has batted brilliantly this summer so far.
-
You have seen 1 plus 1 and made 12 there.
Stokes has been clear Foakes is the number 1, plus he has batted brilliantly this summer so far.
I think you have severely misunderstood my point.
-
How are those Stokes/Baz pessimists going?
Amazing England. Such a good team to watch now.
Will be interesting what they do when they bat first.
Fantastic for test cricket.
-
I am sure all teams will eventually be forced to employ similar tactics, otherwise they wouldn't stand any chance going forward. Gone are the days when 200-300 targets in 4th innings will be considered defendable.
Think this is the only possible evolution for Test cricket to stay relevant in this age of T20, it will definitely bring back more fans back to test cricket. What Mccullum and Eng have done is a watershed moment for cricket, decades down the line, ppl will refer to Test cricket as BM and AM (Before Mccullum and After Mccullum). Plus I read somewhere, attack is the skills most youngsters grow up with now anyway, so better to leverage it than try to teach new Test skills. Instructions for newbies coming into tests - you attack for 20 overs in T20, do same in Tests, but for 180 overs. Everything else remains same :D
-
I am sure all teams will eventually be forced to employ similar tactics, otherwise they wouldn't stand any chance going forward. Gone are the days when 200-300 targets in 4th innings will be considered defendable.
Think this is the only possible evolution for Test cricket to stay relevant in this age of T20, it will definitely bring back more fans back to test cricket. What Mccullum and Eng have done is a watershed moment for cricket, decades down the line, ppl will refer to Test cricket as BM and AM (Before Mccullum and After Mccullum). Plus I read somewhere, attack is the skills most youngsters grow up with now anyway, so better to leverage it than try to teach new Test skills. Instructions for newbies coming into tests - you attack for 20 overs in T20, do same for 180 overs in Tests. Everything else remains same :D
I think you'll see more doctored pitches if other teams start going down this route though. Hard pressed to do this in India when it rags from ball one. Saying that if its hard to bat defensively in India then why not go down this route, nothing to lose. It's great to see.
-
Saying that if its hard to bat defensively in India then why not go down this route, nothing to lose. It's great to see.
Yes, will be great to see. Greats like Amla and De Villiers have played epic defenses in India in past but not much difference in result. I feel attack is only option. You might lose some, but likelihood of winning increases. Plus entertainment value for fans.
-
What a game, delighted that India got a thumping after bottling this game last year.
Bairstow looks a whole different player batting like this, brilliant. McCullum/Stokes have already been a success if getting him playing this well is the only thing they manage! Potts has massively exceeded expectations too, amazing that with so many injuries there's still serious competition for bowling spots.
I do worry what will happen when we have to bat first though...
-
How much of this success can be attributed to a fairly dry summer this year and pitches not providing as much assistance on Day 4/5 as previous years? It was the same case with the NZ series as well.
-
How much of this success can be attributed to a fairly dry summer this year and pitches not providing as much assistance on Day 4/5 as previous years? It was the same case with the NZ series as well.
Dry weather would make pitches better to bat on at the start but make them crumble and deteriorate as the game goes on. Basically a good Test match pitch.
-
How much of this success can be attributed to a fairly dry summer this year and pitches not providing as much assistance on Day 4/5 as previous years? It was the same case with the NZ series as well.
England have still taken 80 wickets. We've still got issues though. Crawley still doesn't convince and for me neither does Pope at 3. Leach is getting there maybe, but then still Broad and Anderson to replace shortly.
Not being all doom and gloom as it's been a great summer so far, but still a lot of work ahead.
-
England have still taken 80 wickets. We've still got issues though. Crawley still doesn't convince and for me neither does Pope at 3. Leach is getting there maybe, but then still Broad and Anderson to replace shortly.
You have hit the nail on the head here: the top three are all on probation and none of them are entirely convincing, though i expect they will get the South Africa series to see if they can make it now. This is made easier for them by the fact that there is not an easy replacement for any of them, though I could see Harry Brook succeeding at three if pushed. I also wonder how James Vince would fare with this mindset?
The real issue is with the ball. Anderson is good for the first innings and one spell now, then he becomes a holding medium pacer. Thats fine, except Broad is also down on pace. I think they should be an either/or for the next 18 months as we try to establish the next generation and keep them fit.
-
Disagree a bit with that, the find of the summer for me is Potts without a shadow of a doubt
Good pace accurate and does not seem the lose pace later in the day. If he stays injury free he will be permanent.
It’s great to see us chase these big scores but I have some caution myself-the balls go soft very quickly, outfields are very fast and the number 1….the wickets not only have not deteriorated they have not spun either.
However the new management style has very quickly taken hold, we needed to be more positive and we are.
Those not naturally attacking, like Lees and maybe Sibley of recalled are the true test.
The big scores have come from the middle order, possibly to do with the balls doing nothing much.
-
Disagree a bit with that, the find of the summer for me is Potts without a shadow of a doubt
Good pace accurate and does not seem the lose pace later in the day. If he stays injury free he will be permanent.
It’s great to see us chase these big scores but I have some caution myself-the balls go soft very quickly, outfields are very fast and the number 1….the wickets not only have not deteriorated they have not spun either.
However the new management style has very quickly taken hold, we needed to be more positive and we are.
Those not naturally attacking, like Lees and maybe Sibley of recalled are the true test.
The big scores have come from the middle order, possibly to do with the balls doing nothing much.
Broad has been faster than Potts every game I've watched. Hes been impressive but low 80s so not exactly pace to write home about
-
Maybe it's not about the pace but more about where he puts it and how he bowls - he's taking wickets as was Robinson before him - neither of whom were express pace.
-
Robinson - 9 tests, 39 wickets @ 21,28
Potts - 4 tests, 18 wickets @ 26.72
Neither to be sniffed at - Angus Fraser was medium paced, and he wasn't the worst!
-
His pace isn't an issue in the UK, but we could really do with some express options when touring OZ
-
Agree with Fattus on this, he’s quick enough I reckon but hopefully we will have Wood back at least for genuine pace.
I think Potts is a real good prospect, Woakes has not played this year, Robinson showed huge promise but is not fit enough, Broad and Anderson cannot go on for ever.
He’s not competing for a place with Archer,Wood or Stone, but in the fast medium slot.
-
Potts is a great prospect, i mean no disrespect to him. He will get better - he will get a little bit quicker over the next 2 to 4 years, and reminds me so much of Scott Boland - the kind of bowler you might score of, but you never really get on top of.
But we are missing, what, Archer, Wood, Woakes, Stone, Fisher, Mahmood, Robinson.
-
This pitch is an absolute motorway.
-
Did anyone watching get an idea of what was wrong with Roy? Scorecard is not flattering.
-
He’s a pretty firm sort of a player isn’t he. Can look fairly sketchy at times.
-
Did anyone watching get an idea of what was wrong with Roy? Scorecard is not flattering.
The Indian bowlers were getting some serious swing.
They looked a class above us last night. Which is very unusual for our white ball team.
-
The way Bhuvi and Arshdeep bowled in the power play was quite exceptional. It was swinging a lot which was surprising with the white ball.
-
Isha Guha is awful!
-
Roy gone first ball, zero foot movement at all.
-
Eng came third today.
Rohit has transformed the Indian t20 team.
It will be interesting to see how Jos and the team respond to this.
-
Eng came third today.
Rohit has transformed the Indian t20 team.
It will be interesting to see how Jos and the team respond to this.
Morgan wasn’t impressed from his comms
-
Haven't seen Eng play T20s as bad as these last two games lately. Could the absence of Morgan as captain be the reason? No matter how important captain is, almost everyone believes you can't have a captain who isn't scoring so Morgan had to go. But is captaincy so important to makeup of the team that it can overcome even personal lack of form to win games just by strategy and other things.
Consider India in tests, after coach Ravi Sastry left, under coach Dravid, Ind lost the test series against a non-full strength/weak SA team. Same result in the one off Eng test, of course Eng were propped up by Baz-Stokes in this department to make it even more one sided. Pant and KL as captains were quite underwhelming to say the least. Right now, in Ind team, with so much rotation, the senior most players available are getting the captaincy/vc duties when regulars are not available. It seems to me there is no thinking at all among the selectors as to who will be a good captain at all, they just go by seniority which seems quite naive. Otherwise how can one explain Jadeja as VC when he was such a flop in IPL and he himself said captaincy was affecting his game in all 3 departments and relinquished it.
I think this is a question that will need further debate. Not just captain but coach and captain setup is very important I feel, and I am not sure teams all over the world give enough thought to this despite the amount of damage it can do when the right person isn't in the captaincy/coaching job. Selecting a player with great playing record for coaching job isn't the solution for sure. Langer and Dravid failures vs Sastry, Mccullum , Dave Whatmore, Bob Wooolmer (not best players but ones with great coaching skills/attitude) successes.
-
Rahul Dravid has coaching experience, National Cricket Academy, India Under 19 (winner 2018, runner up 2020), IPL mentoring. Also Ravi Shastri didn’t start immediately winning everything. He lost series in SA in 2018 too, it has been difficult with team India to win at SA. It will taken more than 1-2 series to better judge Rahul capabilities. Labelling him as a failure is just too early IMO. The young generation which is joining team India now has been coached by him in one way or another. So it’s better to give him few years before judging. Also you didn’t put example of Sandeep Patil, Garry Kirsten and many other forward. And Shastri was very good player at his time with successful and long career and is a celebrated personality in India, not the best but still one of the best similar to dravid.
Rohit is the full time captain here. Indian team is not trying out captains or handing out captaincy to senior most one otherwise Pujara should have been captain in last test match, it’s just in last year due to one reason or another Rohit wasn’t either available or fit or Indian team was trying/ exposing youngsters probably for World Cup and that’s why new captains were also tried, e.g. Ireland, SA T-20 series.
Rohit, if playing will be captain as of now and we will see him delivering results in future
https://www.republicworld.com/sports-news/cricket-news/as-bcci-appoints-rahul-dravid-as-indias-coach-heres-his-u-19-india-a-and-nca-record.html (https://www.republicworld.com/sports-news/cricket-news/as-bcci-appoints-rahul-dravid-as-indias-coach-heres-his-u-19-india-a-and-nca-record.html)
-
I think India winning the series so easily has far more to do with other factors than Morgan going (although the captaincy importance thing is an interesting debate).
1. The Indian batsman have finally bought into having to keep scoring and putting the pressure on through the middle overs.
2. This is no where near the full strength England side. It's missing Bairstow, Stokes, Rashid, Wood and arguably Woakes (and I haven't included Archer).
3. Hardik is able to bowl properly again so it allows them to balance their side far easier than they have before. Where they had no one in the top 5 bowling.
-
Agree, plus can't really draw much conclusion from two T20 results. On another day, the result could have been exactly the opposite.
-
Great start to the Buttler era in limited overs cricket! Reaching new milestones!
-
Movement from the Indian bowlers and they are high class.
I guess England hit thru the line consistently and they will have to adapt to improve.
India have quality bowlers and it showed today. We didn’t move it much at all
-
Time for a white ball re-set lol
-
Test are being played like ODIs, so ODIs need to be played like T20s at least lol.
-
Why are you guys only ever good at one format? :D