Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Rez on September 06, 2021, 08:26:05 PM
-
Was surprised to just see a bat being sold as a G1 with a heavy butterfly stain.
Could go like a train obviously but as grading for the most part seems to come down to the aesthetics and butterfly stains are a bit marmite.... errrr, interested to know what you chaps think?
-
Depending on where the stain is, I could maaaybe stretch to something heavily stained being fairly graded as G2 but G1 is a bit of a piss take.
-
The wright's definition (which is as close to industry standard as there is) has butterfly willow as g4 and in some circumstances it could be g2.
Examples of each here.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyLGw8N6/IMG_20191231_172351.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dLQ3WtwZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Z42Gq8k/IMG_20191231_172334.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1fWtbh3C)
-
A few weeks ago I've seen one butterfly stained bat as close to white willow! As less as I've seen, butterfly stain, only in it's back. Oval havel handle. Haven't held a better balanced butterfly bat with perfect straight grains. Price tag £350!
-
https://www.thecricketboutique.co.uk/gb-willow-bullet---g1-2lb-11-38oz-3632-p.asp (https://www.thecricketboutique.co.uk/gb-willow-bullet---g1-2lb-11-38oz-3632-p.asp)
-
I must admit when I saw the bat on TCB I thought Mark had fudged up the advert and the photo.
I love a butterfly bat but I wouldn't pay £300 if the stain was on the face.
Crazy pricing .
-
300+ GBP is nuts!
-
https://www.thecricketboutique.co.uk/gb-willow-bullet---g1-2lb-11-38oz-3632-p.asp (https://www.thecricketboutique.co.uk/gb-willow-bullet---g1-2lb-11-38oz-3632-p.asp)
No way!
-
Hope he's got that on sale or return lol
-
For me it depends on how you've gone about ordering it and the cleft itself. I don't mind if it is a one off really special low density and pretty Butterfly for it to demand a more premium price - afterall, we know that density is a big selling point these days. The GB Willow one however as nice as it looks, doesn't really fit into this category.
I saw a light butterfly cleft the other day with the most immaculate grains, with tiny bits of staining up at the splice which would have been covered by stickers. If I was sold this as a G1, loved it and then peeled stickers off for a refurb and found the stains, I wouldn't be mad.
-
Grade one butterfly is a pile of steaming BS.
That bat you’ve linked is a G4 - potentially a G3
-
Grade one butterfly is a pile of steaming BS.
That bat you’ve linked is a G4 - potentially a G3
Agreed, it no better than the g4 chase I have in the picture above which cost about £75.
-
The whole grading things is a bit BS though isn’t it? If someone wants to buy a £300 butterfly then it’s worth £300, that’s pretty much it. If that’s not you then look elsewhere.
I don’t really understand the constant outrage at bat price threads on here. It’s not like there’s only one or two batmakers/brands in the world.
-
The whole grading things is a bit BS though isn’t it? If someone wants to buy a £300 butterfly then it’s worth £300, that’s pretty much it. If that’s not you then look elsewhere.
I don’t really understand the constant outrage at bat price threads on here. It’s not like there’s only one or two batmakers/brands in the world.
Far too much sense! That sort of thinking is banned around here I thought.
-
I don't believe butterfly can be graded above G4/G5, no matter what. I would not buy one if it is graded/priced at G3 level, forget about G2/G1.
-
Hi Gents.
Just on the G1 butterfly we have in. I did question this when it arrived but as we work on the grading given by the bat maker and work with them on agreed pricing we have gone along with it. To be honest it is a really nice bat and the grains are good. Without the stain it would definitely be classed as a G1 but as some of you have said, can a butterfly be a G1?
If you look at the Aldred pricing, the Emperor butterfly is £290 and not too long ago Keeley were showing some pro bats with butterfly stain at a similar price.
Im not saying I agree with it at all however there are a few out there going that way price wise.
-
And this was one of the main reasons for starting my own brand. I really do feel that this is just not on personally and the public just pay the price for marketing BS.
Aldreds internal grading of Butterfly is slightly acceptable on the basis that as JS Wrights pretty much set the bench mark for grading he puts the “nicer” looking ones in a higher price point.
The G1 tag is there basically to tempt a buyer into believing that the higher grade means a better overall bat which in my opinion is just nonsense.
Rant over and each to there own but I couldn’t bring myself to charge £300 for a butterfly ever, hell I don’t even sell G1 bats for that.
-
"Without the blemish it'd be blemish-free."
-
"Without the blemish it'd be blemish-free."
:D :D :D :D
-
Hi Gents.
Just on the G1 butterfly we have in. I did question this when it arrived but as we work on the grading given by the bat maker and work with them on agreed pricing we have gone along with it. To be honest it is a really nice bat and the grains are good. Without the stain it would definitely be classed as a G1 but as some of you have said, can a butterfly be a G1?
If you look at the Aldred pricing, the Emperor butterfly is £290 and not too long ago Keeley were showing some pro bats with butterfly stain at a similar price.
Im not saying I agree with it at all however there are a few out there going that way price wise.
I must say its quite interesting for a boutique retailer to have a bat like that in the inventory, given that you always have a select few of each brand. Surely the chances of getting someone interested in a butterfly willow for that price are pretty low.
-
When a retailer puts up such a bat, even though the bat brand decided on the grading/price and not the retailer, a user could get the impression (irrespective of right or wrong) that the store has bats that aren't of value which could affect traffic in other ways. When competing in a tough market against other retailers who market hand picking/showcasing few bats with mis-grading the other way (G1/G2 looking at G3 price) etc., one might want to avoid such a situation IMO.
-
And this was one of the main reasons for starting my own brand. I really do feel that this is just not on personally and the public just pay the price for marketing BS.
Aldreds internal grading of Butterfly is slightly acceptable on the basis that as JS Wrights pretty much set the bench mark for grading he puts the “nicer” looking ones in a higher price point.
The G1 tag is there basically to tempt a buyer into believing that the higher grade means a better overall bat which in my opinion is just nonsense.
Rant over and each to there own but I couldn’t bring myself to charge £300 for a butterfly ever, hell I don’t even sell G1 bats for that.
Personally, I don't see how Aldred's is more or less acceptable than this case. There's a £30 difference in the pricing in this case, but this seems to be a one off case for GB. Wrights state that 2% of butterfly make it into the G2 grade bracket. A lot more than 2% of the butterflies sold by Aldred make it into the Emperor grade. Is there anything wrong with that? Up to the consumer, there's no coercion into buying the bats itself. The premium you pay for an Aldred Butterfly over a butterfly made from someone newer to the industry I'd imagine from a consumer point of view is due to a perceived track record (Aldred has worked a lot with Butterfly, and appears to know what he's doing) and a wealth of experience (He's made bats for over a decade). If he's managed to convince folks his work is worth that kind of money, then so be it.
I've gotta keep more on the ball with threads I randomly start, I think I remember doing a poll on people's thoughts on Butterfly!
-
The whole grading things is a bit BS though isn’t it? If someone wants to buy a £300 butterfly then it’s worth £300, that’s pretty much it. If that’s not you then look elsewhere.
I don’t really understand the constant outrage at bat price threads on here. It’s not like there’s only one or two batmakers/brands in the world.
IF.. IF business had one or two that charged (in this example £300).. but the rest sold it for say between 200 and 150 then your above statement would be more vindicated. the issue is, retailers/makers see x selling for y and go 'well, I can raise my prices too'.. that way, the customer ends up having little to no choice but to spend loads of money.. there in lays the issue .. once you lose that choice because everyone is raising prices to within roughly the same range as each other then you're basically screwed.
-
I think my problem is more with the idea that the less well informed consumer assumes that the £300 bat is somehow superior. Not an issue if you choose to actually speak to Mark from TCB as I've always found him to be scrupulously fair to deal with, but more widely I'm not a huge fan of priced up butterfly clefts being described as G1 which some would take as an indication of quality of the bat and justification of the price. Just doesn't quite sit right.
-
Looks sell...I bet a good looking grainy 'plank' would sell much faster than a excellent performing Butterfly G1. If I had 50 bats in my inventory, would I stock something like this? Probably not.
-
I understand everyone's comments on here about the grading/pricing etc. We try and be as transparent about what we sell as possible, hence each bat being individually photographed etc.
There is definitely a stronger argument if generic stock photos are used and you don't know what you are actually getting until it arrives. It definitely wouldn't sit well with us If I had taken a picture of the best looking bat and then sent someone one with a butterfly stain just because the maker had graded it as G1. Ultimately its down to the customer to decide if they like a bat or not and if they deem it to be value for money.
How many times have you seen G1 bats that look closer to G2/3, its exactly the same argument.
If you talk to us we will give an honest opinion on bats and there have been a number of times where I have advised customers to go with lower grade bats because in my opinion they perform (pre prep etc) better than a higher grade bat at a higher price that they originally wanted.
Where do people stand on "pro" bats? Sellers/Makers try and bump prices up, regardless of what the bat would be graded at (on looks) because it taps up well or a pro had an option to choose it for themselves. Would it be ok to charge £300+ for a butterfly bat if It had Root written on it in pen? Again its the same sort of argument.
We are definitely not trying to con anyone and I hope those that have dealt with us in any way have witnessed this.
-
IF.. IF business had one or two that charged (in this example £300).. but the rest sold it for say between 200 and 150 then your above statement would be more vindicated. the issue is, retailers/makers see x selling for y and go 'well, I can raise my prices too'.. that way, the customer ends up having little to no choice but to spend loads of money.. there in lays the issue .. once you lose that choice because everyone is raising prices to within roughly the same range as each other then you're basically screwed.
So you can’t find anyone selling butterfly for under £300 now?
-
Another day, another brand...
-
I'm assuming this is the 'GB Willow' bat we are talking about?
-
Has anyone actually heard of GB Willow before now? What's their story?
-
Personally, I don't see how Aldred's is more or less acceptable than this case. There's a £30 difference in the pricing in this case, but this seems to be a one off case for GB. Wrights state that 2% of butterfly make it into the G2 grade bracket. A lot more than 2% of the butterflies sold by Aldred make it into the Emperor grade. Is there anything wrong with that? Up to the consumer, there's no coercion into buying the bats itself. The premium you pay for an Aldred Butterfly over a butterfly made from someone newer to the industry I'd imagine from a consumer point of view is due to a perceived track record (Aldred has worked a lot with Butterfly, and appears to know what he's doing) and a wealth of experience (He's made bats for over a decade). If he's managed to convince folks his work is worth that kind of money, then so be it.
I've gotta keep more on the ball with threads I randomly start, I think I remember doing a poll on people's thoughts on Butterfly!
Agree with you.
-
Personally, I don't see how Aldred's is more or less acceptable than this case. There's a £30 difference in the pricing in this case, but this seems to be a one off case for GB. Wrights state that 2% of butterfly make it into the G2 grade bracket. A lot more than 2% of the butterflies sold by Aldred make it into the Emperor grade. Is there anything wrong with that? Up to the consumer, there's no coercion into buying the bats itself. The premium you pay for an Aldred Butterfly over a butterfly made from someone newer to the industry I'd imagine from a consumer point of view is due to a perceived track record (Aldred has worked a lot with Butterfly, and appears to know what he's doing) and a wealth of experience (He's made bats for over a decade). If he's managed to convince folks his work is worth that kind of money, then so be it.
I've gotta keep more on the ball with threads I randomly start, I think I remember doing a poll on people's thoughts on Butterfly!
@Chad I highlight the word slightly more acceptable but I still don’t agree with it really. I was also unaware on the %of Butterfly willow that makes it into the G2 category and as you say that bat maker from what you see in his social media I would guess is 60%+ of sales in Butterfly willow.
The pricing of bats and kit full stop has gone mental. If I can make and sell a butterfly for £135 as a small bat maker that’s buys in small quantities than the pricing of some is a total joke. Now I know it’s not my livelihood etc but even still the realms now of £300 for a g2 from the bigger brands and £450 for G1 is just mind boggling to me. Let alone the sub grades etc that fall into it like G1+++, Pro etc because it happens to me a nice looking bat.
-
In fairness @SOULMAN1012, whilst you can make a butterfly for ~£135 you'll have literally minimal costs involved with running your business so it isn't even close to being a fair comparison.
Believe me, the costs spiral once you hit a certain level. If I was to sell butterfly bats for £135, without selling huge quantities of them, I'd be losing money as a company.
The second you have to start factoring in rent/rates, VAT, accountants etc it isn't anywhere near as simple as buying a bat for X and selling it for £50 more.
-
Also, just to add - that absolutely isn't a dig at any small brand/batmaker. As someone who started off with literally 32 pairs of gloves and something like 10 bats I've very much had to work up from nothing to where it's at now so I completely understand and can emphasise at both ends of the spectrum.
I always look back on the original CBF thread for Neon so as not to forget where it all started - I can confirm selling pittards gloves for £35 was never a sustainable idea lol :D (Link here if anyone's interested - http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=23132.msg370386#msg370386 (http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=23132.msg370386#msg370386))
-
In fairness @SOULMAN1012, whilst you can make a butterfly for ~£135 you'll have literally minimal costs involved with running your business so it isn't even close to being a fair comparison.
Believe me, the costs spiral once you hit a certain level. If I was to sell butterfly bats for £135, without selling huge quantities of them, I'd be losing money as a company.
The second you have to start factoring in rent/rates, VAT, accountants etc it isn't anywhere near as simple as buying a bat for X and selling it for £50 more.
@Neon Cricket never thought it was a dig at all buddy and for someone that has to rent or lease a workshop or commercial unit I know the costs are high and that has to be included in the selling price of the product.
However when new brands come to the market and just charge the same prices as the big boys that’s just a Micky taking exercise to me. Don’t get me wrong I don’t like the fact that if you buy a NB for example you pay a larger price to cover the costs of sponsoring Root or GN to cover Babar plus the large costs involved with a business of those scales but for example a bat maker working from home in a outbuilding etc charging £500+ for “players” grade which is basically just a nice looking G1 is a mockery in my opinion. You can’t or shouldn’t be grading within a grade to make more just because it looks nice in my opinion, business or not. The club player is the one losing out now as prices are just mental and they can’t keep going this way as they must have doubled in the last 5 years across all kit ranges
-
would it make a difference if you are a sticker brand or part maker or full maker of bats? anyone in the know got any ideas - as in if you did everything from raw cleft to finished bat and were a big brand - could you buy in bulk and minimise costs enough to get the price down? i.e like Chase - or are they selling them at cost/below cost to get rid of them?
as in if GB willow is a sticker brand - is that why the price is so high?
or am i talking complete crap - please tell me if i am :)
-
would it make a difference if you are a sticker brand or part maker or full maker of bats? anyone in the know got any ideas - as in if you did everything from raw cleft to finished bat and were a big brand - could you buy in bulk and minimise costs enough to get the price down? i.e like Chase - or are they selling them at cost/below cost to get rid of them?
as in if GB willow is a sticker brand - is that why the price is so high?
or am i talking complete crap - please tell me if i am :)
No your not talking rubbish. I for example buy the cleft and then the price I set is purely down to me plus additional costs for stickers, grip etc. Also when you buy in bulk I get a little discount but this I imagine is pretty standard. So if I want to only charge £10 for example I could.
If you buy as a sticker brand I guess you have to pay the price for the whole bat so this includes a pre determined labour rate from the manufacture of your bats and then you have to make your profit on top of the profit already made by the manufacturer.
I imagine the discount to be quite vast for someone like GM the who no doubt order thousands a year. Others like GN and a Kippax that grow there own have those associated costs and the big one for big brands is players sponsorships although some have cut back I think but I image Jos is a very big endorsement figure which again has to be paid for
-
would it make a difference if you are a sticker brand or part maker or full maker of bats? anyone in the know got any ideas - as in if you did everything from raw cleft to finished bat and were a big brand - could you buy in bulk and minimise costs enough to get the price down? i.e like Chase - or are they selling them at cost/below cost to get rid of them?
as in if GB willow is a sticker brand - is that why the price is so high?
or am i talking complete crap - please tell me if i am :)
GB willow has their own in house batmaker, and are predominantly English Willow suppliers. Their pricing is actually very competitive IMO, just the grading of this one piece seems to be up for debate. £145 for G3 up to £320 for G1 is very good pricing IMO.
Most likely Chase has to buy in a fair bit of willow, so the lower grades/butterflies they'll make up and sell for very little profit most likely. Lots of love for the R1 grade, one of the best value for money English made bats you can buy. It's good for the sport itself, as it means folks with a tighter budget can access a well priced bat without compromising on manufacturing quality.
Thing is, even if you're making from the raw materials, you need to spend a large amount on purchasing a fairly hefty chunk of it for good rates, and then the time investment to making the end product. That's a lot of money to be invested in the materials. You also have a lot to be invested into the actual manufacturing equipment and maintenance as well. It's not an easy industry to get into from the looks of things. For start ups, you'll get a good beginning as you'll have teammates and friends etc to buy from you, but after that, it's very tough I'd imagine.
In terms of sticker brands, it's a bit of a funny one. Some of them start off with 1 manufacturer and then switch for various reasons. (Better product, cheaper product, manufacturer relationship turned sour, etc etc.) In terms of their costs, they'll get the bats from the manufacturer for cheaper than the manufacturer sells their bats for, and then add on their own cut on top of that to make a profit. (Nothing wrong with making profit, we all need to make a living somehow) The costs associated are different, the space they need and also the equipment they require. Thing is, many manufacturers will need to make bats for these sticker brands, as their own brands don't sell enough for them to be busy all year round...
-
thanks @SOULMAN1012 - a really helpful answer!
-
thanks @Chad
-
thanks @SOULMAN1012 - a really helpful answer!
As someone that makes from the raw cleft, I can produce cheaper bats than if I made from part mades, and considerably cheaper than if I imported before you account for labour.
I get a discount if I buy in bulk, but the raw materials for making a bat simply aren’t that expensive. What is very expensive is the machinery (our handle saws cost the best part of 5K our press after shipping was 4k, Spindle moulder, table plane sanding machinery, bandsaw etc etc.) space, electric, labour etc.
The reason most brands charge the prices they do is because they can.
Neon cricket was right in so far as once you factor in rates, vat, space, utilities etc you do need to increase your prices, but over a certain level it is just because consumers buy it.
There is a huge margin in cricket bats if you just work off the raw materials
-
thanks @LEACHY48 - appreciated - never thought that the equipment/machinery could cost so much
-
For me it's all about, something I really want and have money, I'll buy it! Most on here have seen heavy butterfly marks or bars on them.
The ones we're talking about, have a hint of butterfly stain. are actually made to top specs! From to toe! For them even £350 is a reasonable price! Because they are as good any other grade top grade bats!
-
The ones we're talking about, have a hint of butterfly stain. are actually made to top specs! From to toe! For them even £350 is a reasonable price! Because they are as good any other grade top grade bats!
The bat that inspired this thread has 36mm edges, a 30mm toe and a 60mm spine. Respectable for sure but certainly not "top specs".
-
The bat that inspired this thread has 36mm edges, a 30mm toe and a 60mm spine. Respectable for sure but certainly not "top specs".
I was referring to the one I mentioned I've seen using someone, not the one on here.
-
I once got a B3 in their post fire offer which was a 3 stripe. It had a small butterfly stain and is one of the best bats i've had my hands on. Think it was around £200 in the sale and probably the biggest bargain i have had buying gear
-
For me it's all about, something I really want and have money, I'll buy it! Most on here have seen heavy butterfly marks or bars on them.
The ones we're talking about, have a hint of butterfly stain. are actually made to top specs! From to toe! For them even £350 is a reasonable price! Because they are as good any other grade top grade bats!
Great next time a get a Butterfly that’s quite light I’ll make it up for you and charge you £350 for a Grade 4 bat which is justifiable because I can make into “top specs” what ever that means but I assume it’s this magical 40mm edge 65mm spine that makes the bat a total gun!!
-
Great next time a get a Butterfly that’s quite light I’ll make it up for you and charge you £350 for a Grade 4 bat which is justifiable because I can make into “top specs” what ever that means but I assume it’s this magical 40mm edge 65mm spine that makes the bat a total gun!!
Fine, if I like it and if I've got the money, I'll buy it! 😃👍