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General Cricket => World Cricket => England => Topic started by: stamper on November 05, 2021, 01:11:16 AM
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I've contributed to the thread in the Kippax section, but as discussed, it's only there because of the association to Gary Ballance. And as has been mentioned, the issue is much wider than that. I couldn't find it anywhere else. So I thought maybe a new thread here was a better place.
I'm very disheartened that this is occurring in the game I love, and to people in this country. From the very start when Azeem Rafiq was first subjected to inappropriate and unfair behaviour right up to the current point that Yorkshire CCC have been dragged to by Azeem, his advisors, the public, the media, sponsors and MPs. Rather than Yorkshire CCC seizing the initiative.
I'm 50 years old, and grew up in the New Forest. Not a multicultural area in the 70s or 80s. But I specifically remember a situation at school where I knew enough when I was around 13/14 (so, 1984/5) that "p***" was first and foremost an offensive term, and that I couldn't think of a situation where it would be ok to use.
So it's been painful to read that at least one player has used this term at least 20 years later. Even if Gary Ballance felt it was banter, and felt it was reciprocated by Azeem as part of a friendship, I just don't think it's a term that can be used. I can understand how in a sports team it could arise. There is a lot of negative banter in sports teams and there are known reasons why that occurs. But there is a line, over which things said can be regarded reasonably as intimidation, bullying, racism, sexism and alike.
GB has apologised publicly (and maybe privately too, I don't know, but I would hope so) and he has provided a context in which he feels his behaviour was rational at the time. This has taken some balls considering a likely backlash. I've not seen any response from Azeem on how he views GB's apology. Michael Vaughan has also issued a statement refuting a claim about some specific wording that it is alleged he used. We are starting to see greater transparency and I hope we view this information as it comes out as part of the necessary progress towards a resolution, and not individual events to "pile on", overreact and make a situation even worse.
Should GB be punished? I think yes. But it should be proportionate. Maybe there are mitigating factors. However, for Yorkshire CCC to decide to take no action? That's deeply disturbing. There are plenty of options that that they could have chosen. A verbal warning, a written warning, enrolment on an awareness course, a final warning, a fine, dismissal are examples. Combinations of these could be used. They decided that no punishment was appropriate.
As was mentioned on the Kippax thread, there are many other allegations that Azeem has made that cannot be determined because individuals have refused to co-operate with the internal investigation. It doesn't mean these people are guilty. Doesn't mean they are innocent either. Maybe they are worried that, with hindsight, they did cross the line and are frightened of the repercussions now.
However, I think YCCC look far more culpable than any of the individuals that have been and will be implicated. As a club they have a responsibility to try to prevent bullying and racism, amongst other things, from happening, to monitor and see if it is happening, and to take appropriate action if it does. They don't seem to have achieved any of these things in this instance. And further, seem to be wilfully obstructing the course of events. It still greatly bothers me that YCCC released the news of the report findings on the morning of the cancelled Eng v Ind test match. I believe they did this cynically. They have, like a dog with all four legs outstretched, been pulled to this point by external forces. They should have be leading it.
So should YCCC be punished? Absolutely. It wouldn't do the wider cricket loving community in Yorkshire any good for the club to be disbanded. In fact, much better for the club to be asked by the ECB to be a leading proponent of the statements on the England player's t-shirts "Cricket is a game for everyone". To set the standard for the other counties to achieve. I think that will require changes in personnel at the top and maybe elsewhere, improved or introduced processes and procedures and strong consistent messaging of the objective and the progress. And time.
Just my thoughts.
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Hutton’s resigned.
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Vaughan is implicated too, and has been busted by Rana Naveed with his nonsense telegraph article.
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Hutton’s resigned.
Hutton is quoted as saying "[at Yorkshire he had] experienced a culture that refuses to accept change or challenge". So he may have gone, but it sounds like he's not the [only] one that needs to go.
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Yes Hutton resigned it is possible the whole board will go today.
To me….Ballance having admitted he was wrong, has done absolutely the right thing owning up and apologising-I hope there’s no long term consequences for him.
Yorkshire CC by trying to deflect,delay and mislead have made the situation worse - it’s a real storm now
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Hutton is quoted as saying "[at Yorkshire he had] experienced a culture that refuses to accept change or challenge". So he may have gone, but it sounds like he's not the [only] one that needs to go.
It needs a clear out. By the end of today that could happen it’s moving so quickly
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Vaughan is implicated too, and has been busted by Rana Naveed with his nonsense telegraph article.
Personally thought Vaughan's response was suspicious. "I completely and categorically deny that I ever said those words"
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I can totally imagine Michael Vaughan saying that. On air, never mind in a dressing room.
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Vaughan is implicated too, and has been busted by Rana Naveed with his nonsense telegraph article.
It's not as there are any racists that write for the Telegraph, is it?
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Sorry, I thought it was Michael Vaughan who had written in the Telegraph.
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https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/former-yorkshire-player-rana-naved-ul-hasan-says-he-heard-vaughan-s-racist-comments-1287618 (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/former-yorkshire-player-rana-naved-ul-hasan-says-he-heard-vaughan-s-racist-comments-1287618)
I think this is what previous poster was referring to. Rana Naveed is willing to come forward.
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https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/former-yorkshire-player-rana-naved-ul-hasan-says-he-heard-vaughan-s-racist-comments-1287618 (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/former-yorkshire-player-rana-naved-ul-hasan-says-he-heard-vaughan-s-racist-comments-1287618)
I think this is what previous poster was referring to. Rana Naveed is willing to come forward.
Yes this is what it needed, someone else to come forward.
Vaughan despite what he has said, needed to be 100 per cent sure he did not say it.
As opposed to the single current player who has owned up.
There’s trouble ahead for Vaughan
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Hutton has quit and fired a broadside at the ECB.
Likely that the hugely conflicted Graves would have been running the ECB at that time.
What a mess.
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Yes this is what it needed, someone else to come forward.
Vaughan despite what he has said, needed to be 100 per cent sure he did not say it.
As opposed to the single current player who has owned up.
There’s trouble ahead for Vaughan
Big time. Never been a fan
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Problem with the way the county have handled it is now that everyone is potentially in the firing line, and so many people will make their own judgements without the full picture. I wonder how far this could go, banning all YCCC players from playing for England? Playing county cricket?
A good clear out at the top and of the coaching staff might be good for on-the-field Yorkshire as I feel the coaching has been lacking in recent years.
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Vaughan dumped from the BBC five live show he will be dropped like a hot potato now by all media.
As with anything in life, if you make a mistake own up and say sorry then deal with whatever comes your way.
With a whole clear out coming very soon I wonder how many of us 2 days ago would think Ballance himself, his apology and explanation of his relationship with Rafiq would come out of this ok(so far).
It’s quite clear many at Yorkshire have refused to comment on the report, covered it up and delayed it and therefore wanted it under the carpet.
Now what was a big problem is now absolutely huge.
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Gale will be the next to go as coach.
Am pretty sure he was skipper at the time too.
The thing about Vaughan is that he does not realise the stuff he has done is bad.
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Vaughan will find a home in politics, I have little doubt. :(
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An anonymous player now coming forward and if the allegations are true it’s going to get a lot worse for Yorkshire.
It’s completely out of control now for the club and you wonder what will happen as the days go on and maybe someone else comes forward.
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What's the betting that Vaughan will spend the next 6 months telling us he's been 'silenced' whilst speaking on a major platform? That's usually how these things go isn't it
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What's the betting that Vaughan will spend the next 6 months telling us he's been 'silenced' whilst speaking on a major platform? That's usually how these things go isn't it
I believe the term is 'cancelled'.
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Gotta look at the amateur game aswell how many BAME players play Saturday cricket. I know in my local team they only have 3 players from BAME across 3 team senior saturday teams despite having a large BAME community.
We also have 6 teams from my local area playing in a sunday league which is mostly made up of BAME players because they don't have the opportunities to play on Saturday's. All these teams have there home grounds(rented) upto 30mins away.
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I don't believe there is a problem with participation levels. I seem to remember reading somewhere that British Asians are six ties more likely to play recreational cricket than British whites.
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Can honestly say I have not seen exclusion at amateur levels as played in a mostly Asian side when younger and was quite fun, got abused plenty by the teams of all colours
At amateur level this is like football more and more, abuse gone from funny and clever to just personal and abusive in last 10-15 years I have noticed as people see top level doing it more so think it’s ok
I’m glad this report has come out as properly done with investigators proving wrong doing so heads should roll not just court of public opinion on social media hounding people they don’t like
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Yes, there is a big problem with 'sledging' more generally in amateur cricket.
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https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1518581/racism-yorkshire-cricket-club-azeem-rafiq (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1518581/racism-yorkshire-cricket-club-azeem-rafiq)
Just been catching up with this, not sure where it got to but the employment tribunal claim has been settled. Lord Patel has met with Azeem Rafiq and he will publish the report to those with "legal interest". Rafiq has stated that Moxon, Arthur and most of the coaching staff should go. Will be interesting to see where this ends as, while I am sad this has happened to Yorkshire, it shows there is a lot of work to be done here and across all of cricket as a whole.
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I don't believe there is a problem with participation levels. I seem to remember reading somewhere that British Asians are six ties more likely to play recreational cricket than British whites.
I don't think participation at grass roots is the issue.
Its the step up in the professional game. Requires a lot of practice, input from coaches which most working class state kids cant afford. The kit is expensive and also requires good family structure to ensure kids are travelling to sessions and games all over the place. I'ts a huge effort.
It's probably why so many public school kids succeed whereas state schools don't in the same ratios. I don't for a second blame the richer kids, it's not their fault and as any parent would do if they could afford it they would spend on their kids.
I know one young lad who has had serious amounts of cash spent on him by his father. Hours and hours of coaching and attends a well o do school where they have more than 1 cricket ground that's probably better than most local league grounds. The kid and his dad are lovely people and I wish them well.
The kid has come on leaps and bounds and was told by a coach he needed to move to a bigger club that played a higher stanadrd.
However I've seen kids probably with better natural ability (both Asian and white) but will never progress as the kid I mentioned has done. Going to a public school with all the structure and support makes a difference. The way of the world.
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The above post is one of the best posts I have read on this forum and is the biggest issue faced in cricket and in Yorkshire around Leeds I have noticed
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The reason that so many kids in private schools move on to the next level is because its played at school....a lot! with full time cricket coaches & great facilities. Typically these coaches are ex Pro's who can find a way into the game for their players.
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There is a massive commitment - both time and money - that parents have to give up if their child is to make it through the pathways into the professional game in cricket. You look at the sacrifices that the fathers of Moeen Ali and Haseeb Hameed and you can see why those from elite backgrounds dominate the professional game. Someone from Marcus Rashford's background would have almost no chance of a career as a professional cricketer. If you then add to that a culture of institutional racism at a club with the taken pool that Yorkshire has, it isn't hard to see why the England test side is drawn from such a narrow homogeneous group
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Agree with most of what is being said. But, perhaps ironically, cricket has always seemed to me to be more of a working-class sport in Yorkshire than any other part of the country. Many of the Yorkshire greats have been from humble backgrounds.
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Gale suspended.
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Yes and the coaches and director of cricket have been asked to resign according to reports.
Moxon and Vaughan did not comply with the inquiry and that to me is far worse than one player using an offensive term and then apologising. I hope the player keeps his job.
This is a massive stink but to be honest a lot of good can come of it, There’s a chance to clean up and rebuild the club with a different outlook.
As far as the amateur game goes, I’ve played myself as a minority in a team for the last 20 years so I don’t see what others do in terms of my own experience.
I do know different races, colours and religions can play together as one team and respect their own differences.
Cricket can and should bring people together from all different walks of life.
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Moxon is off work with a stress-related illness.
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Moxon is off work with a stress-related illness.
The stress of being asked to resign... very understandable.
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Apparently Moxon received some threats
Here’s the background to the Andrew Gale suspension
https://apple.news/AVkBB8e0BQI6ZG6acICG74A
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And Jo Stevens MP has kicked off as the terms of reference of the enquiry were changed by YCCC part way through the process in order to “prevent the investigations team from drawing any conclusions about institutional racism”. Hence the conclusions upheld 7 of Rafiqs claims but didn’t pass judgment as to the institutional racism question.
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Bilal Shafayat
https://twitter.com/bshafayat46/status/1456977045154566145
Tabassum Bhatti
https://apple.news/AANrEPg1-T72NwuOx-DVuQQ
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And Jo Stevens MP has kicked off as the terms of reference of the enquiry were changed by YCCC part way through the process in order to “prevent the investigations team from drawing any conclusions about institutional racism”. Hence the conclusions upheld 7 of Rafiqs claims but didn’t pass judgment as to the institutional racism question.
I think there is a possibility the government either get involved with more academy players speaking out or
They put serious pressure on the ECB to make significant change.
The way this is going Government intervention looks like it’s coming.
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Bilal Shafayat
https://twitter.com/bshafayat46/status/1456977045154566145
Tabassum Bhatti
https://apple.news/AANrEPg1-T72NwuOx-DVuQQ
That is horrific... hope they get named and shamed. Heavy punishments... I won't be losing sleep over their loss of earnings and pressure... I'll refrain from using foul language...
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This is so sad! Anyway at least Michael Vaughan is currently on mute.
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This is so sad! Anyway at least Michael Vaughan is currently on mute.
He’s had toasted himself as a second player backed up the remarks he made to the four Asian players.
One of this players was Rashid…he is the most prominent Pakistani players-if he breaks his silence things could get worse.
If that’s even possible.
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Disappointed to read that Vaughan will still be commentating with BT Sports for the Ashes series. Think I will forgo buying a viewing package for the upcoming series!!!
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I do know different races, colours and religions can play together as one team and respect their own differences.
Cricket can and should bring people together from all different walks of life.
That is true. Stay focused on cricket and treat each other with respect, that is all you need.
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Gale suspended.
Gale had been suspended for a tweet he sent, then deleted, in 2010. Unrelated to this case, but still racist language.
What I don’t understand is why it takes so long for this to come out if it’s been on Twitter. Why wasn’t this highlighted when he got the job in 2016?
Those that have tweeted and it’s still there, how have they not deleted it yet or had action accordingly? Like the bowler who got called up for England then his tweets were highlighted. How on earth hasn’t someone highlighted these sooner?
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Moxon and Vaughan did not comply with the inquiry and that to me is far worse than one player using an offensive term and then apologising. I hope the player keeps his job.
It was disturbing to find out that the reason why a majority of Rafiq's allegations were not upheld by the report commissioned by Yorkshire was that a number of those connected to the Club simply refused to cooperate with it. Moxon's position is plainly untenable but it is hard to see how as a current employee, the Club didn't instruct him ay the time that he was required to cooperate
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Gale had been suspended for a tweet he sent, then deleted, in 2010. Unrelated to this case, but still racist language.
What I don’t understand is why it takes so long for this to come out if it’s been on Twitter. Why wasn’t this highlighted when he got the job in 2016?
Those that have tweeted and it’s still there, how have they not deleted it yet or had action accordingly? Like the bowler who got called up for England then his tweets were highlighted. How on earth hasn’t someone highlighted these sooner?
More pertinently, how do the ECB now justify not disciplining Anderson and particularly Buttler for their earlier tweets?
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Adil Rashid has now backed up Rafiq’s claims by Vaughan exactly what was said to the group of Asian players.
Vaughan is not telling the truth and I hope he is toasted by all broadcasters now.
There’s one thing using the wrong offensive terms and saying sorry, it’s quite another denying you ever said them.
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I suspected this would go beyond Yorkshire...
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Vaughan's defence is looking pretty suspect when three people confirmed they heard his comment and he refused to take part in Yorkshire's investigation.
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Vaughan's defence is looking pretty suspect when three people confirmed they heard his comment and he refused to take part in Yorkshire's investigation.
Yes exactly. By not cooperating essential those that chose that option are saying there is nothing wrong and nothing to change.
It’s impossible to move forward with that
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This is horrible to listen to from Rafiq and some of the stuff he's had to go through.
Plenty more high profiles names as well...
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/59294668 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/59294668)
DCMS select committee is live on BBC - few other names been mentioned now
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I'm watching the Select Committee hearing live. Azeem Rafiq is currently making his statements.
A few additional names, previously unmentioned, have already been dropped in relation to his experiences. No doubt the media will gorge on these. However, for me two things stand out. His still raw emotion over the loss of his son and the lack of support he received from YCCC at the time (in fact he raises instances where it led to more abuse). And his strong view that it is not just YCCC, but endemic within the professional game.
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Think it's significant what he's said about how normalised racism was, that white players could forget things even happened.
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Pleased to learn he was positive about Joe Root. I like Root and would have been disappointed had he been in the mire..
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Pleased to learn he was positive about Joe Root. I like Root and would have been disappointed had he been in the mire..
Absolutely, it’s a new ECB programme of fairness for all but Root is the face of that and it’s hard to believe he does not genuinely believe that is the way forward
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And we move from the clarity and emotion of Azeem's testimony to the vacuous guff and fence sitting of the ex and current non-exec Chairmen...
YCCC have to go on a journey apparently. No sh!t Sherlock.
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It’s a significant issue the club are saying….and we don’t know if it’s true….that they cannot sack anyone without permission from the Colin Graves Trust.
If this is correct it may explain why those that wanted to clean up, and there must be those people at the club, had no authority to do so including the head honcho.
That situation essentially is a toothless and powerless management team.
I’d be interested to know if that really is the situation.
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Noone believes Root has any racial issues but the fact he has denied outright he ever saw any racism at Yorkshire ever is a problem, clearly a lie
Does anyone even believe that ?. It was rife . Root sadly is protecting his mates
Root is a good man as said by rafiq should have done the honourable thing rather than burying the truth at yorkshire
Pleased to learn he was positive about Joe Root. I like Root and would have been disappointed had he been in the mire..
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It’s a significant issue the club are saying….and we don’t know if it’s true….that they cannot sack anyone without permission from the Colin Graves Trust.
If this is correct it may explain why those that wanted to clean up, and there must be those people at the club, had no authority to do so including the head honcho.
That situation essentially is a toothless and powerless management team.
I’d be interested to know if that really is the situation.
Absolutely. This is a key point. From what the ex-Chairman said today, the Graves Trust vetoed efforts he made to remove several Executive Directors. Unless Lord Patel has negotiated something different on acceptance of his role, he will be equally as toothless (aside from the fact that Mark Arthur has resigned. and Martyn Moxon is on "sick leave".
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ECB now being quite rightly highlighted as the myopic, reactive, fckwitted, organisation that it is.
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The ECB getting absolutely slaughtered here
Does anyone have access or know where to find the 2014 Fletcher Report being extensively referred to?
I searched tinternet but maybe my skills are not up to scratch
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The ECB getting absolutely slaughtered here
Does anyone have access or know where to find the 2014 Fletcher Report being extensively referred to?
I searched tinternet but maybe my skills are not up to scratch
Here? Haven't fully checked, but looks like it.
https://ray.yorksj.ac.uk/2456/1/Swain%20-%20Nothern%20Otherness%20-%20Revised.pdf (https://ray.yorksj.ac.uk/2456/1/Swain%20-%20Nothern%20Otherness%20-%20Revised.pdf)
May also be this. Year is correct.
http://eprints.leedsbeckett.ac.uk/159/6/Cricket%20the%20Post-Match%20Drink%20and%20Exclusion%20of%20British%20Muslims.pdf (http://eprints.leedsbeckett.ac.uk/159/6/Cricket%20the%20Post-Match%20Drink%20and%20Exclusion%20of%20British%20Muslims.pdf)
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Noone believes Root has any racial issues but the fact he has denied outright he ever saw any racism at Yorkshire ever is a problem, clearly a lie
Does anyone even believe that ?. It was rife . Root sadly is protecting his mates
Root is a good man as said by rafiq should have done the honourable thing rather than burying the truth at yorkshire
He's not a good man if he is a liar.
Root and Ballance lived together.
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Clearly is lying is anyone going to justify here Root was not aware of anything going on and he’s never seen
Any racism at Yorkshire ?
The fact he’s lying makes his position hard to justify
He just should have told the truth in the first place
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Clearly is lying is anyone going to justify here Root was not aware of anything going on and he’s never seen
Any racism at Yorkshire ?
The fact he’s lying makes his position hard to justify
He just should have told the truth in the first place
Root not identifying certain things as racist is maybe not so surprising if he grew up around the same culture that treated Rafiq and others so poorly.
If you grow up in an atmosphere where bigotry is treated as the default then you'll think it's perfectly normal and likely won't identify it as bigotry/discrimination.
Wouldn't be stunned either if Root has been given a very clear line to take by the ECB's PR teams.
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I am ashamed to say I have myself been in many situations where I have witnessed racism and failed to intervene or even make my thoughts known.
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Root not identifying certain things as racist is maybe not so surprising if he grew up around the same culture that treated Rafiq and others so poorly.
If you grow up in an atmosphere where bigotry is treated as the default then you'll think it's perfectly normal and likely won't identify it as bigotry/discrimination.
Wouldn't be stunned either if Root has been given a very clear line to take by the ECB's PR teams.
Did he or did he not hear those names being used would require a straight yes or no answer?
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Would love to know if anyone else believes this too
Doesn’t make Root a racist but I think he’s lying and protecting his mates
So what we are suggesting is ecb have told root to lie and root has agreed I see…
Root not identifying certain things as racist is maybe not so surprising if he grew up around the same culture that treated Rafiq and others so poorly.
If you grow up in an atmosphere where bigotry is treated as the default then you'll think it's perfectly normal and likely won't identify it as bigotry/discrimination.
Wouldn't be stunned either if Root has been given a very clear line to take by the ECB's PR teams.
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Did he or did he not hear those names being used would require a straight yes or no answer?
Is that what he's been asked? Similar to what Rafiq said this morning, if you're not the target of this language then it doesn't stick with you in the same way.
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I don't think he's telling the truth.
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Would love to know if anyone else believes this too
Doesn’t make Root a racist but I think he’s lying and protecting his mates
So what we are suggesting is ecb have told root to lie and root has agreed I see…
He may well be but I don't know that you've got any more evidence to believe that than anyone would have not to?
I'm not claiming any basis to think Root has been fed a line but it would hardly be shocking for a large organisation to feed lines to senior employees to manage a PR crisis, would it?
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Is that what he's been asked? Similar to what Rafiq said this morning, if you're not the target of this language then it doesn't stick with you in the same way.
Probably not what he was asked. I don't believe you wouldn't remember
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Let’s go with the fact ecb have forced or pushed root to say this
What kind of man does this make Root then ?
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It’s a significant issue the club are saying….and we don’t know if it’s true….that they cannot sack anyone without permission from the Colin Graves Trust.
If this is correct it may explain why those that wanted to clean up, and there must be those people at the club, had no authority to do so including the head honcho.
That situation essentially is a toothless and powerless management team.
I’d be interested to know if that really is the situation.
To the best of my understanding, this veto on Board appointments was introduced in 2016 when Graves moved to the ECB. It seems something of a sham to give the impression of independence of Yorkshire from Graves, but leaving his family able to still expert a measure of control by dictating who can sit on the Board
https://yorkshireccc.com/news/view/4487/yorkshire-announce-annual-profit-for-the-first-time-since-2009
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Of course he's been 'advised' what to say!
If he was seen to have been complicit in allowing a racist dressing-room culture to exist then surely his job as England captain would be untenable?
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Let’s go with the fact ecb have forced or pushed root to say this
What kind of man does this make Root then ?
Not as good a man as I thought he was.
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Can’t see how root gets out of this
If he just said he saw it and he wants nothing to do with this as it’s totally wrong
And nothing to do with him or part of his ethos he comes out so strong
But he’s taken the approach which is wrong
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Let’s go with the fact ecb have forced or pushed root to say this
What kind of man does this make Root then ?
If we do assume that is the situation, then it would make him no better or worse than any other person who makes a wholly understandable choice to protect their livelihood and career in the face of pressure from their employer.
Do remember that there is no suggestion Root himself was ever involved in racist behaviour at Yorkshire. We'd all like to imagine we'd take a stand but in practice I think it is probably quite a lot harder than we all think it is. Just need to look at the abuse Rafiq has received for speaking out.
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Let’s go with the fact ecb have forced or pushed root to say this
What kind of man does this make Root then ?
Just playing devil's advocate here, is it a fact he's lying and a fact the ECB have pushed him to say this?
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I think actually he would become a hero
Not asking him to take a stand
Asking him did you see it or not that's it
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I think actually he would become a hero
Not asking him to take a stand
Asking him did you see it or not that's it
You mean in the same way Rafiq has been universally praised as a hero for speaking out? He was receiving death threats as recently as last week.
I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to become embroiled in this, even if it is a cop out. The blame should be directed at the organisations who allowed this culture to continue, not on individuals who weren't even involved in the behaviour in question.
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I think we have both said our pieces and given fair side to both arguments :)
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I think actually he would become a hero
Not asking him to take a stand
Asking him did you see it or not that's it
Imagine living with a bloke that called lots of people not named Kevin 'Kevin' and not noticing he had this habit...
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Could have been too busy shadow batting ?
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understanding a bit more why Morgan has been so reluctant to pick hales, but i also think hales is thick as 2 short planks so maybe didnt understand 100% the full meaning (not defending him at all - even if hes only guilty of being a moron)
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Missed most of this- there was more revealed about Ballance I think? Sorry state of affairs for cricket in England full stop.
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A bit more on Ballance, clearly him and Rafiq were good friends but that relationship deteriorated. Rafiq’s opinion is the club went downhill rapidly when Gillespie left and Alex Lees was no longer Captain and replaced by Ballance.
It seems like racist terms were accepted at the club and became the norm.
It also came out the management were toothless and any big decisions such as sacking had to be rubber stamped by the Colin Graves Trust which props them up financially.So those that wanted to do something had their hands tied somewhat.
The only thing I think myself about the whole thing is the difference between banter between good friends and racism that runs thru an organisation who turn a blind eye to anything serious.
The issue of what is banter is a moot point. Rafiq called Ballance Zimbo from Zimbabwe, is that a derogatory term?
I have played with a Zimbabwean and we called him Zim or Zimmer, never was that term used in a deregatory manner.
However I grew up in West London in a multiracial city so I know the term P… is offensive.
What I’m saying in the line between good friends is a difficult one.
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Alex Lees was only ever a one-day captain. He was never club captain. Ballance took over from Andrew Gale, who retired from playing and immediately became a coach under Gillespie.
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My understanding was that 'Zimbo' is like Aussie or Kiwi, there's no history of it being used to denigrate people or to abuse minorities, unlike the P-word.
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Is the hearing carrying on tomorrow?
It's pretty piss poor Yorkshire didn't send any witnesses to the committee, I think that speaks volumes really.
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Yes it is, only Hutton who didn’t know Rafiq and has only recently been appointed in the last couple of years
Looks like Bumble is now in hot water, Rafiq referring to him as a closet racist for remarks made about Asian players in club cricket.
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He said Asian cricketers don't go in the bar. Is this really racist?
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He said trying to get Asian players to pay subs is like getting blood out of a stone which is tarring everyone with the same brush.
The issue of the bar is one I know well, most of my teammates don’t drink alcohol because of their religion and don’t go in the bar
That’s perfectly normal in the part of the Country I’m from and elsewhere I’m sure.
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He said Asian cricketers don't go in the bar. Is this really racist?
Think it was more than that.....
'the club houses are the life blood of a club and Asian players don't go in there', 'getting subs out of Asian players is like getting blood out of stone'.
‘And then personally this guy doesn’t even know me, has never spent any time with me, is talking about my personal drinking, going out and socialising.'
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I didn't know the first bit. Sorry.
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But we've admitted there is at least some truth in the statement?
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If Del Boy had done the Steve 'joke' on Only Fools and Horses, we'd all have found it hilarious. Wouldn't we?
(Playing devil's advocate here a little bit.)
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If Del Boy had done the Steve 'joke' on Only Fools and Horses, we'd all have found it hilarious. Wouldn't we?
(Playing devil's advocate here a little bit.)
Do we really want to use an 80s sitcom as our moral compass though?
Also very different if the joke is 'this guy is too dim to get simple names right when they're not British' as opposed to 'ha ha foreign names are funny'.
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I'm not sure I could confidently tell you what Pujara's first name is. And I've watched him a fair bit.
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I'm not sure I could confidently tell you what Pujara's first name is. And I've watched him a fair bit.
But you could presumably bother yourself to learn the name of a new work colleague rather than refusing to use their name because it's 'too foreign'.
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But you could presumably bother yourself to learn the name of a new work colleague rather than refusing to use their name because it's 'too foreign'.
Honestly, I might also have seen the 'funny' side in calling him Steve. Names we are unfamiliar with are more difficult to remember.
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Jack Brooks has deleted his Twitter account. :o
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It’s pretty ignorant for team mates to use an English name for a foreign player but we have all been in dressing rooms where someone who thinks you might struggle with their names shortens it for you
For example Chetswara might be call me Chets….
But if would have to come from him. To substitute an English name is ignorant and should not be done.
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It’s getting worse for Ballance as drug allegations are surfacing…with Yorkshire allegedly covering them over.
They would not be the first club to do this thou before the pitchforks come out
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There's certainly going to be some solicitors being kept busy.
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Looking forward to counties panicking... now that sponsors might withdraw...
Fair play to Hoggard for apologising straight away... I just hope it was genuine... which I feel was...
I get alcohol is a big part of English culture... but why is it so central to clubs looking for people to play cricket...
Have a curry night or offer veg alternatives... sometimes when people don't drink they could feel not a part of the club or team. So let them know in other ways...
Again people are different and don't want to feel as if they are causing more trouble than it's worth...
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It’s getting worse for Ballance as drug allegations are surfacing…with Yorkshire allegedly covering them over.
They would not be the first club to do this thou before the pitchforks come out
I've read somewhere that football clubs have fixers to keep headlines away...
Understandable when you got a daft 18 year old away from family with more money than people will see in their lives.
Not the brightest bunch footballers especially at that age...
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Not the brightest bunch footballers especially at that age...
Well, that's a sweeping generalisation if ever I heard one!
Classist?
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Well, that's a sweeping generalisation if ever I heard one!
Classist?
:D :D unlike us cricketers... ;)
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Good catch though... I should have prefixed.."some of these.."
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Also: "Have a curry night." :o
"I'm not a racist. I love a good curry."
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The full text of the witness statement that Rafiq prepared for his employment tribunal claim has been published. It is a difficult read to understand what life as a Muslim player at Yorkshire was like.
Also very disappointing to see that Hoggard was the player who came up with the Raffa the Kaffir slur. As someone who played in South Africa as a young payer and toured there as an international, he must have understood how offensive that term is
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/cricket/azeem-rafiq-dcms-yorkshire-racism-crisis-testimony-b966488.html (https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/cricket/azeem-rafiq-dcms-yorkshire-racism-crisis-testimony-b966488.html)
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He said Asian cricketers don't go in the bar. Is this really racist?
The issue seems to be that Lloyd made a call to a journalist who had been supportive of Rafiq to make comments about Rafiq which seem to have been intended to discredit Rafiq and therefore the allegations he was making. Aside from his generalised comments about Asian players, he is being implicated in Yorkshire's efforts to cover this up rather than dealing with it
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Also: "Have a curry night." :o
"I'm not a racist. I love a good curry."
I'm asian and I love it when we have a curry at our club!!! :D :D
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I'm asian and I love it when we have a curry at our club!!! :D :D
I love a curry too. I just don't like it when people make a song and a dance about liking a curry. It's almost like they're trying to hide something?
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Not in this context... :)
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The issue seems to be that Lloyd made a call to a journalist who had been supportive of Rafiq to make comments about Rafiq which seem to have been intended to discredit Rafiq and therefore the allegations he was making. Aside from his generalised comments about Asian players, he is being implicated in Yorkshire's efforts to cover this up rather than dealing with it
Again, I didn't know this. Thanks.
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Not in this context... :)
Not in a "have a curry night and all will be well" context?
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Not in a "have a curry night and all will be well" context?
In the context of a social event not based around alcohol...
That was an example.... take it how you wish...
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Looks like this will go on for some time and now that even the PM has got involved. Really not good for some big names in English cricket.
What so sad is that someone’s whole life’s work on getting to the near top in his chosen profession can’t be ruined by pure ignorance. This goes far deeper than banter which in an ideal world isn’t acceptable but is accepted in all top level sports dressing rooms until it gets to a point that it can have the type of effect its had on Rafiq. Someone must have known this was going over the line but was to scared to speak up, the senior board responsible for the club chose to ignore it and then try and just sweep it away and even in the face of all the come back have still failed to hold there hands up.
I dont pretend to be an expert on this case but it’s just so sad someone has been treated this way for so long.
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The PM has got involved? Wow!
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Not sure what immediate action is the PM has called for but the way this has gone it is not impossible to imagine Yorkshire CC being dismantled completely.
The ECB will have to do something now they may of wished more time to sort out.
It’s very sad actually. There must be without a doubt some good people at Yorkshire.
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It’s very sad actually. There must be without a doubt some good people at Yorkshire.
Oh I imagine 95% of people associated with YCCC are without doubt good people and will be totally gutted with how there club is being portrayed. Hundreds of years of heritage within one of the biggest and no doubt proudest counties around given there success at domestic level and also the international players that have come through and played for YCCC
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It’s pretty ignorant for team mates to use an English name for a foreign player but we have all been in dressing rooms where someone who thinks you might struggle with their names shortens it for you
For example Chetswara might be call me Chets….
But if would have to come from him. To substitute an English name is ignorant and should not be done.
Believe he's called Che around the India set up quite often. The notion that his English teammates couldn't have learned that is laughable, pure wilful ignorance at work.
I've played cricket with more than a few lads whose names I couldn't pronounce easily. It was as simple as asking "sorry mate, how do you pronounce your name?" and going with that. Basic courtesy and common decency.
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Believe he's called Che around the India set up quite often. The notion that his English teammates couldn't have learned that is laughable, pure wilful ignorance at work.
I've played cricket with more than a few lads whose names I couldn't pronounce easily. It was as simple as asking "sorry mate, how do you pronounce your name?" and going with that. Basic courtesy and common decency.
It's not rocket science is it, shocking really. I'm sure someone would much rather you ask them how to pronounce their name correctly rather than not try at all and patronise them.
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Will the EcB want their top players associated with Yorkshire?
Will Root/Bairstow/Rashid/Malan’s PR teams want them to move on?
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Will the EcB want their top players associated with Yorkshire?
Will Root/Bairstow/Rashid/Malan’s PR teams want them to move on?
That’s a very good point. Root and Bairstow have been there from the junior section and you would imagine their heart is just for their club.
I guess they would want to be part of a new culture.
Rashid is the key one I think, he has not said much but has clearly seen what has gone on and been subject to it himself.
But it’s such a mess you would not rule anything out.
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Losing Rashid would be most damaging as after this mess, they would want to be showing progress.
It's ironic that the pinnacle of the game ... the England squad has such great comradeship with Morgan leading the way...
As others have mentioned, maybe he knew about Hales character and didn't want him in the team.
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It's not rocket science is it, shocking really. I'm sure someone would much rather you ask them how to pronounce their name correctly rather than not try at all and patronise them.
Agree Jamie, easy to do.
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Further issues with historic behaviours at Yorkshire...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59338118 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59338118)
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Further issues with historic behaviours at Yorkshire...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59338118 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59338118)
Doesn't look good... how old was he?
Same as Ollie Robinson.
If people have apologised for their actions and say they have changed... he surely cannot go after them now.
Messed up...
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In the context of a social event not based around alcohol...
That was an example.... take it how you wish...
Most cricketers I have known would be disappointed if a curry night didn't involve the drinking of 6 or 8 pints of lager.
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Problem with that antisemitic stuff now is that the public will just throw the focus on him rather than the wider issues. Beyond frustrating
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Micheal Holding is worth listening to if anyone has not heard his comments on historical social media messages.
As the ECB tripped over themselves to hang Robinson Holding talked a lot of sense at the time.
But yes….Rafiqs argument is diluted now, the more serious issue of predjudice because of the colour of someone’s skin remains and that needs more than just a slogan or t shirt to work.
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Azeem Rafiq has really shot himself in the foot here with the historic slurs against other cultures coming to light. Shame, as there really was some momentum starting to build for his plight.
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Micheal Holding is worth listening to if anyone has not heard his comments on historical social media messages.
As the ECB tripped over themselves to hang Robinson Holding talked a lot of sense at the time.
But yes….Rafiqs argument is diluted now, the more serious issue of predjudice because of the colour of someone’s skin remains and that needs more than just a slogan or t shirt to work.
Where is the best place to listen to him on this specific subject? Do you have a link please?
And agree with your second point.
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Azeem Rafiq has really shot himself in the foot here with the historic slurs against other cultures coming to light. Shame, as there really was some momentum starting to build for his plight.
I think the bigger picture, which is what is needed rather than targeting individual players should be the focus. With the comments he made toward Ballance, and the fact he has prior disciplinary actions (calling the Eng U19 a W on twitter), he probably didn't think he was going to come out totally unscathed, however, this has highlighted there is more a of behavioural culture throughout.
The drinking culture, which was huge in the 80s/90s (Boon and co. drinking records, etc.) and even Ballance in Aus last time he was there, for instance, really needs to change. It could do with a Wenger-style change to those behaviours to truly make an impact.
It will not stop at Yorkshire, or even the ECB, it needs global focus to future-proof the sport.
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Has anyone seen that Sidebottom interview from today? :o
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Has anyone seen that Sidebottom interview from today? :o
https://twitter.com/SkyCricket/status/1480551251465031680?t=MpcaqZUnn-xHbUk2Q5wc7A&s=19
:o
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Seen a short interview with Sidebottom saying he will be coaching with Harmison at Yorkshire.
You would think with most if not all sponsors leaving Yorkshire the ECB will need to fund them now and also for any potential court cases for unfair dismissal that may follow.
Certainly a big job to rebuild ahead
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https://twitter.com/SkyCricket/status/1480551251465031680?t=MpcaqZUnn-xHbUk2Q5wc7A&s=19
:o
Ah ok. Seen that again. He used the wrong word in forget which he has now apologised for.
Institutional racism has to be stamped out but I do think there needs to be some sort of latitude to move forward with every phrase picked to pieces on social media.
What happened to Rafiq was terrible but he was not whiter than white in the whole affair.
They need to be able to move forward now and hopefully they will.
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He used the #onon which Vaughan bleats in his every tweet. But yeah, at some point you have to move on..on
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Interviewer: "Did you hear anything?"
Sidebottom: "Not necessarily."
You did or you didn't, Ryan. :o
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Mental that it looks like Yorkshire will come out of this pretty much unpunished. Disgusting when compared to the punishment that Durham were given by the ECB.
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They have lost all major sponsors, the whole coaching staff have been sacked and Test status has been withdrawn from them.
What would of been an appropriate punishment? A fine of points big enough to keep them in the lower division long term?
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Not sure what else could be thrown at the club, humiliation complete, but sure there are those who wish more
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Not sure what else could be thrown at the club, humiliation complete, but sure there are those who wish more
I think there are quite a few who want Yorkshire to actually reform their club and the wider attitude within their county cricket structure. Don't forget that this all happened because they allowed discrimination and bullying to become acceptable.
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Interviewer: "Did you hear anything?"
Sidebottom: "Not necessarily."
You did or you didn't, Ryan. :o
I noticed that part or the interview too. Unbelievable :o :( :o
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I think there are quite a few who want Yorkshire to actually reform their club and the wider attitude within their county cricket structure. Don't forget that this all happened because they allowed discrimination and bullying to become acceptable.
Important to recognise that it was individual people at the club that made it institutionally racist. Not the club itself. Get rid of those people, and punish them further if possible, but don't punish the club. Instead, as I wrote earlier, get people in who want to make the club a paragon of inclusivity, with the best getting to represent the first team regardless of race.
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Important to recognise that it was individual people at the club that made it institutionally racist. Not the club itself. Get rid of those people, and punish them further if possible, but don't punish the club. Instead, as I wrote earlier, get people in who want to make the club a paragon of inclusivity, with the best getting to represent the first team regardless of race.
Well no, that's not what institutional racism is. Rafiq has made a point of saying, correctly IMO, it's not about hounding individuals but about changing the entire culture. It very much was "the club itself", ie the institution.
To be clear, that is not saying that everyone at Yorkshire or their fans is/was racist, but Yorkshire CCC had an institutional problem with discrimination and bullying.
Now you could, probably fairly, say that senior individuals are responsible for developing the culture of an institution, but you don't end up with widespread and accepted discrimination and bullying if you don't have a wider problem beyond your senior management.
To be honest, you've actually outlined in your post why its cultural and institutional change that is needed rather than just new individuals in senior roles - "make the club a paragon of inclusivity". That's not achieved by sacking your Chairman and bringing in a nicer bloke, but by overhauling the whole culture of the club.
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Well no, that's not what institutional racism is. Rafiq has made a point of saying, correctly IMO, it's not about hounding individuals but about changing the entire culture. It very much was "the club itself", ie the institution.
To be clear, that is not saying that everyone at Yorkshire or their fans is/was racist, but Yorkshire CCC had an institutional problem with discrimination and bullying.
Now you could, probably fairly, say that senior individuals are responsible for developing the culture of an institution, but you don't end up with widespread and accepted discrimination and bullying if you don't have a wider problem beyond your senior management.
To be honest, you've actually outlined in your post why its cultural and institutional change that is needed rather than just new individuals in senior roles - "make the club a paragon of inclusivity". That's not achieved by sacking your Chairman and bringing in a nicer bloke, but by overhauling the whole culture of the club.
I think you're wrong.
"It was the club itself"? Was the wooden clubhouse racist or bullying? Were the concrete stands racist or bullying? Were the rollers and super soppers racist or bullying? No. It was some of the people who were directors or employees of the club. Ergo get rid of those people, get in people who are not racist or bullying.
My additional point was that I feel a great strategy for these people to follow would to be for the club to be an exemplar rather than open the club to further punishment. Which would achieve nothing.
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I think you're wrong.
You're entitled to your opinion.
"It was the club itself"? Was the wooden clubhouse racist or bullying? Were the concrete stands racist or bullying? Were the rollers and super soppers racist or bullying? No.
Ridiculous, facetious comment and I suspect you know exactly what I meant, that it is the organisation as a whole that has a problem and not just a few individuals. By your logic (that 'the club' means the physical infrastructure) then they would cease to be YCCC if they moved ground.
My additional point was that I feel a great strategy for these people to follow would to be for the club to be an exemplar rather than open the club to further punishment. Which would achieve nothing.
This I generally agree with.
I don't think that Yorkshire's issues will be solved by relegating them, fining the club further, etc. Mandating certain initiatives (for example unconscious bias training for senior figures) wouldn't IMO be punishment but it would go some way to addressing the relevant issues.
Whether they deserve further punishment as a club (points deductions, etc) is a separate question, but I'm not sure that it is really the important issue here.
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You're entitled to your opinion.
Ridiculous, facetious comment and I suspect you know exactly what I meant, that it is the organisation as a whole that has a problem and not just a few individuals. By your logic (that 'the club' means the physical infrastructure) then they would cease to be YCCC if they moved ground.
I get a certain impression from this chain. And I really can't be bothered to argue the point any further. So I'll just simply say I disagree and leave it there.
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I think you're wrong.
"It was the club itself"? Was the wooden clubhouse racist or bullying? Were the concrete stands racist or bullying? Were the rollers and super soppers racist or bullying? No. It was some of the people who were directors or employees of the club. Ergo get rid of those people, get in people who are not racist or bullying.
My additional point was that I feel a great strategy for these people to follow would to be for the club to be an exemplar rather than open the club to further punishment. Which would achieve nothing.
Wow. Just wow. You aren’t currently employed by Yorkshire CCC by any chance are you?
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Important to recognise that it was individual people at the club that made it institutionally racist. Not the club itself. Get rid of those people, and punish them further if possible, but don't punish the club. Instead, as I wrote earlier, get people in who want to make the club a paragon of inclusivity, with the best getting to represent the first team regardless of race.
This is a completely incorrect understanding of institutional racism. Jimbo is being far too generous when he says you are entitled to your opinion because this is not something we can agree to disagree on, your denial of the existence of institutional racism is just simply wrong.
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The DCMS report is due to be published on Friday which is unlikely to make comfortable reading for the Club
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This is a completely incorrect understanding of institutional racism. Jimbo is being far too generous when he says you are entitled to your opinion because this is not something we can agree to disagree on, your denial of the existence of institutional racism is just simply wrong.
Seconded.
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The DCMS report is due to be published on Friday which is unlikely to make comfortable reading for the Club
It’s going to take time to get rid of the issues there it cannot be done short term.
I’m just not convinced myself further punishment in the form of points fines are the way to go-clearly others on here have a different view.
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Seconded.
Thirded.
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The aspects to the "institutional racism" as, whilst you say that the "club" as it is purely bricks, mortar, etc. it is the people, the policies, how individuals behave and are expected to behave.
The fact that they would allow such recognised behaviour meant they either didn't have the correct policies and processes in place, or that the reporting of such behaviours were not able to happen as they were not dealt with appropriately and the systems in place did not do anything to stop this.
I do believe this is more wide-spread than just Yorkshire, and it does go back a long way, not that this is an excuse but I just do not believe the club has moved with the times.
To try to explain the "it's not bricks and mortar" bit, if there is a massive oil spill in the pacific ocean while BP are transporting this across the world, the news would be "Large BP Oil Spill", it wouldn't be "Dave the Sailor Spills Oil". It is the responsibility of the company to make sure the right things are done at the right time.
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Thirded.
Fourth-ded
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So YCCC have announced Ottis Gibson as new head coach, personally I think this is a great appointment.
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I agree completely, and also slightly disappointed England didn’t get there first!
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I agree completely, and also slightly disappointed England didn’t get there first!
True, when he was with England he was very well thought of by all the bowlers he worked with.
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I’m happy that it’s been announced and looking forward to him getting things going. Much improved on the last coach. Glad no one else snaffled him up first, I’m sure England would have had him replace our current crop.
His name has been banded for a hit and there was talk last weekend of him being offered. Rour is that Younis Khan is prime for the batting coach at the moment.
Seems they’re putting a strong team together.