Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Companies => Custom companies => Topic started by: awp on February 16, 2011, 12:40:57 AM
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Im still relatively new here so I apologise if what Im asking is common knowledge. Seems to be some boutique companies who make their own and others who outsource production. Can we make a list of the 2 or doesnt it really matter?
Of the companies that outsource I assume the bats are their own design and they have them made?
I've read "so and so has them made by Newbery"???
maybe you experts can add to the lists.....
Companies that make their own bats
SAF - Andy
H4L - Matt
Companies that outsource
??? - made by ??
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i do not think many will want to answer this question mate
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Touchy subject I bet, easy one for me though. At blue room Robert makes all the bats himself. they are not made by any other podshaver at all, and they are not sourced from anywhere else.
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I'm not sure why it should be a touchy subject, we're talking facts arent we?
I dont see anything wrong with contracting out the batmaking any more than outsourcing softs
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And if we look at it most freely admit it. See the Instinct cricket thread. The non-batmakers include Talisman, Mongoose, Ayrtek, Lekka and Instinct. In some cases they have their own Willow, in others they source it. I guess it is the difference between being a brand and a podshaver.
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I do not make my own, that might change but beware of those making false claims saying they make all their own bats themselves, they may be economical with the truth and that is a very bad starting point when buying a bat.
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I guess it comes down to using common sense. Those who do make their own bats are rightly proud of it and clearly advertise it. Those who buy in and add their own branding will admit it, and will tell you if they are English made or Asian made. It doesn't take much to figure out who is doing what and there is no problem as none who do not make their own claim to make them (I speak specifically about the brands associated with this forum, you may find differently elsewhere)
Although many of those who buy their bats in from a maker will not openly admit to who made them due to contractual issues, it is a pretty poorly kept secret and anyone who spends time on the forum can usually put two and two together. That said, due to the delicate nature of it all, it's not looked upon well for someone to make guesses in public. So let's not turn this into a guess the batmaker thread.
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What do you class as making yourself as alot machine shape then hand finish foes that count
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Branded by Ayrtek made in the Uk to a level that I'm happy with.....if I wasn't they wouldn't have our branding on them!
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I'd class making as performing the machining and pressing yourself, the sanding and shaping if required is finishing.
Tom, you are man of high standards when it come to bats.....
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He is just sucking up mike ha
How difficult is it to machine the bay as assume it's just a basic cnc?
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You need to saw off the waxed ends, run through a cutter to get the width right and plane the face to shape, shape shoulders and toe and maybe profile on a CNC and then cut splice, also cut a handle, pre press, bow press and finally fit the handle. Then you need to draw down the handle and sand and polish.
I know you've seen all this at GM and the sanding and finishing is the easy bit. Once you have a decent program on the CNC it is easy, just press the button....
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I'd class making as performing the machining and pressing yourself, the sanding and shaping if required is finishing.
Tom, you are man of high standards when it come to bats.....
Good point, but it does annoy me a bit when 'handmade' is associated with CNC made bats. Nothing wrong with CNC but it is a tad misleading. To me a handmade bat is one where handtools are used from beginning to end.
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Very few bats in the UK will be handmade, and Asian bats are becoming more machine made by the day.
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Companies that make their own bats
SAF - Andy
H4L - Matt
Newbery
GN
GM
Kippax
Warrior
Nixon
Think we then have comapnys inbetween that may do the shaping and the finishing from pre handedled stuff
Companies that outsource:
Talisman
Mongoose
Ayrtek
Lekka
Instinct
Black Cat
Bulldog
Joda
Piri piri
end of day i dont think its that importand where a bat comes from as long as its a good bat!
ps some of the people in the list above i may be wrong about.
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I think, Newbery outsource all work.
And a couple of the others on that list outsource and just make a few.
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why wud newbery not make there own bats?
to busy making everybody elses?
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I think he means newbery get there stuff made by tim who is not technically newbery
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yeah didnt realise tim had his own company..
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Called something like TJ Keeley ltd isn't it?
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TW i think.
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Companies that make their own bats
SAF - Andy
H4L - Matt
Newbery
GN
GM
Kippax
Warrior
Nixon
Think we then have comapnys inbetween that may do the shaping and the finishing from pre handedled stuff
Companies that outsource:
Talisman
Mongoose
Ayrtek
Lekka
Instinct
Black Cat
Bulldog
Joda
Piri piri
end of day i dont think its that importand where a bat comes from as long as its a good bat!
ps some of the people in the list above i may be wrong about.
Could add redback to that list of podshavers ? :)
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anyone know anything about these guys.....
who uses them etc.......
http://www.headfort.co.uk/home
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GN must surely out source somewhere if that there workshop there know way there getting through 1000's of handmade bats.
Canners it is a fix headfort
the old owner owned St Peters ask Mike about them there a topic on them in the pavillion
He imports them nothing more
He is a sacked ex employer of Greens
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here you go...
http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=9150.msg143969#msg143969
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cheers mate
i searched Tim Keeley cricket bats and thats what come up.....
dodgy feckers
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I think Hawk should be added to the list as well of bat makers
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I'm heading to Hawk a bit later on today and I've got a few questions to ask them so I will see if they do make their own or not etc...
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i dont think just finishing a bat, should be classed as a batmaker.......
i would describe a batmaker, as someone who does everything themselves from start to finish (machining inclusive)
the likes of Keeley and Millichamp, apart from these two it seems there arent many others out there....
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dont forget the key part, the pressing.
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yeah i meant that as well......
that will narrow things down even more so
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I think, Newbery outsource all work.
And a couple of the others on that list outsource and just make a few.
So you are saying Tim Keeley makes all senior size Newbery bats?
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my understanding was Keeley makes the top end/ pro bats but im sure Mike would be more qualified to answer that question
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So you are saying Tim Keeley makes all senior size Newbery bats?
His company does yes.
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but Tim only Handmakes certain bats?
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Ah okay, cheers Tom.
So Nick Keeley is also in Tim Keeley's company? What is Tim's company? Headfort?
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Headfort is something completely seperate a rip off company if you read above this in this post
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Ah okay, cheers mate!
Do you know Tim Keeley's company name?
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but Tim only Handmakes certain bats?
I don't know if he handmakes any, they work on a production line.
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Presumably they have a cnc machine
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He does have a cnc but he like rob pack can make totally by hand from start to finish but it's just not cost effective with the time involved
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good read this topic is on peoples perception of what goes on! :)
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Agreed Tom this is like a chinese whispers thread "I heard from my monkeys uncles godsons friend whose father knows a chap that sold me a bat...."
CNC machining the majority of the shape is not boutique or bat making either it is just finishing!
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finishing a bat is different to making a bat in my eyes as you have already been given the template and the hardwork has been doen for you....there will be very few "batmakers" there but quite a few "finishers".
still a great amount of skill involved in both though!!!
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dont forget the key part, the pressing.
what happens though if the a person goes to say keeley and does his own pressing on there presses there then shapeing/sanding at the own workshop
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Ah okay, cheers Tom.
So Nick Keeley is also in Tim Keeley's company? What is Tim's company? Headfort?
headfort has nothing to do with Keeley either of them it is acon man in Devon
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would they press a handled cleft?
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headfort has nothing to do with Keeley either of them it is acon man in Devon
Where in Devon? I need to keep my ear closer to the ground!!
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finishing a bat is different to making a bat in my eyes as you have already been given the template and the hardwork has been doen for you....there will be very few "batmakers" there but quite a few "finishers".
still a great amount of skill involved in both though!!!
yep again was trying to say CNC machining is an engineering process to make a bat shape, it isn't pod shaver therefore not bat making and hence just finish bats...
what happens though if the a person goes to say keeley and does his own pressing on there presses there then shapeing/sanding at the own workshop
[please note the sarcaism here Procricket] so Tim lets you touch his press
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not me i'am no batmaker but i know a person he does let touch his press
i am a garden potter sander
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there you go Gary he was ST peters
Headfort CNC, The Cricket Barn. Prattshayes House, Maer Lane, Exmouth, Devon, EX8 5DB
like i said i hear he worked at greens and goes by the name of David or Walter
one last question does it matter in quality if it cnc or Handmade i do not think so but i ask the real experts
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there you go Gary he was ST peters
Headfort CNC, The Cricket Barn. Prattshayes House, Maer Lane, Exmouth, Devon, EX8 5DB
like i said i hear he worked at greens and goes by the name of David or Walter
one last question does it matter in quality if it cnc or Handmade i do not think so but i ask the real experts
Dave, I was wondering the exact same thing....
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i'd like to know this also, i'm guessing a machines mor eaccurate, but i would assume theres some shapes a cnc machine cant make....
in terms of quality id hazzard a guess at there wouldnt be much of a difference
i look forward to an answer from someone thats in the know ;)
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and to add i think there no more than 10 possible 5 real podshavers in the Uk
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GM made their LUNA model to show off the shapes that the CNC can make that other brands cannot replicate, as a production line GM wouldnt be able to make the sheer volume they cater for by handmaking the bats.
if making y hand i would think it would take experience and skill to make sure both edges and side of the bat are symmetrical. From my limited experience when shaping from a raw cleft this was bloody hard to do!!
The CNC machine would eliminate this problem and your just left to shape the handle and finish off the bat from there, Im sure there are people that can make from scratch question is have they got time to do so in order to meet the volume demand they require?
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there you go Gary he was ST peters
Headfort CNC, The Cricket Barn. Prattshayes House, Maer Lane, Exmouth, Devon, EX8 5DB
like i said i hear he worked at greens and goes by the name of David or Walter
one last question does it matter in quality if it cnc or Handmade i do not think so but i ask the real experts
Has to be handmade, a cnc machine can't adapt to the different qualities an individual cleft will have.
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i see your point but still think as many do pressing is key so shaping is only secondary
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GM made their LUNA model to show off the shapes that the CNC can make that other brands cannot replicate, as a production line GM wouldnt be able to make the sheer volume they cater for by handmaking the bats.
if making y hand i would think it would take experience and skill to make sure both edges and side of the bat are symmetrical. From my limited experience when shaping from a raw cleft this was bloody hard to do!!
The CNC machine would eliminate this problem and your just left to shape the handle and finish off the bat from there, Im sure there are people that can make from scratch question is have they got time to do so in order to meet the volume demand they require?
talking of completely hand made bats in demand Tom, hows the sales of the 'frankenstein' taken off??? :)
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Ive owned too may bats to list on here but i now don't care less where its made or how it was made hand made or machine made etc etc, obviously i would prefer my bat to made here in England but as a consumer its all about price. Ive found no real benefit in custom made bats against hand picking something off the shelf and as i said ive tried most.
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mate he's in the corner of the office waiting for action.....the market isnt ready for such radical introductions yet...years ahead of his time is old Frank!
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mate he's in the corner of the office waiting for action.....the market isnt ready for such radical introductions yet...years ahead of his time is old Frank!
Tom do you make your helmets from unhandled clefts or just from pre-mades?
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We can't let on the secrets involved I'm afraid...trade secrets lol
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I love the view that as you set out to make a bat from a big lump of wood you find that the big lump of wood doesn't like being pushed to have certain features and so a hand maker will adapt to the uprising and select another shape.
In reality this would only ever apply to low end bats made from poor men's clefts with big faults in them that need to be worked around by hand, and this high labour with a cheap cleft will never make anyone money so is always done in Asia where labour is very very cheap.
As far as I know no one but Mr T Keeley will press at bat in his factory as no one has skills to match his. Certainly it is a nice story to spin that certain customers of his making actually use his equipment to make their own bats but sadly having spent time with them while they have been there they watch and wonder how it is all done.
I can cook a mean Chilli, but if I chose to buy in tins of it and sell it as my own would I still be a cook?
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I love the view that as you set out to make a bat from a big lump of wood you find that the big lump of wood doesn't like being pushed to have certain features and so a hand maker will adapt to the uprising and select another shape.
In reality this would only ever apply to low end bats made from poor men's clefts with big faults in them that need to be worked around by hand, and this high labour with a cheap cleft will never make anyone money so is always done in Asia where labour is very very cheap.
As far as I know no one but Mr T Keeley will press at bat in his factory as no one has skills to match his. Certainly it is a nice story to spin that certain customers of his making actually use his equipment to make their own bats but sadly having spent time with them while they have been there they watch and wonder how it is all done.
I can cook a mean Chilli, but if I chose to buy in tins of it and sell it as my own would I still be a cook?
I can't think of anyone obviously on this forum who claims to make who actually doesn't...
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I think that's the idea Jon, you're not meant to know!
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I think that's the idea Jon, you're not meant to know!
Well are we talking about those who finish pre-mades or those who have never so much as owned a woodworking tool? Of the former I suspect some, of the latter, don't think so.
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It's a question of perception, I agree that to be called a bat maker you need to be involved in all the processes but how could someone starting out afford a press?
I made a wooden smoothing plane recently and whilst I didn't make the blade, I did make the body to hold the blade. Whilst the blade does the cutting, it would be of little use had I not made a body to hold it...
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Il be honest with all - Vantage source there willow from elsewhere pressed/handled. I then get it down to required weight/profile, shape shoulders and get to the correct width, sand, bind the handle and apply finish.
I have experience of pressing and the process of making a bat by hand from scratch which i learnt with Choice Willow but as mentioned before presses are very expensive and difficuilt to get a good one so it is easier and more cost effective to have this done elsewhere. Hopefully something we will be able to achieve in the future.
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Very refreshing and honest of you Dan...i tip my hat to thee in respect
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Big respect for being honest mate
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Takes skill, time and effort to do those tasks u mention mate otherwise ul end up with a FRANKENSTEIN in your kit bag lol
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Will good old frankie be on display when I head down Thomas
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Very honest, fair play. Indeed it does still take a lot of skill and a lot of the Vantage bats I have seen on this forum look superbly finished.
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Iv asked mike for sum binding string so it can be finished off mate as i know ur keen to give him a try out lol
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Hell yeah would love to walk out to the middle with it
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Il be honest with all - Vantage source there willow from elsewhere pressed/handled. I then get it down to required weight/profile, shape shoulders and get to the correct width, sand, bind the handle and apply finish.
I have experience of pressing and the process of making a bat by hand from scratch which i learnt with Choice Willow but as mentioned before presses are very expensive and difficuilt to get a good one so it is easier and more cost effective to have this done elsewhere. Hopefully something we will be able to achieve in the future.
fair play mate......
in all honesty it doesnt bother me if the bats are pressed elsewhere and just shapped etc, all i want is a bloody good bat ;)
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Dan I am very pleased with your honesty, I genuinely believe you are doing nothing wrong in your set up as the time and money you would have to spend to match your current arrangement would be huge. And I would like to add that Dan has asked me many times about finding a press suitable for him as he wanted to fully make himself.
When Vantage gets bigger you will be able to get something made to match the "sub".
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top probs for dan coming out! LOL
me and tom had a nice long discussion about this last night. doesnt really matter if its a pre handed cleft or what because it still takes alot of skill to actually make the bat. not much u can do with just a block of wood with a stick in it.
more cost efective as well
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Dan, you're a bat maker to me, with or without the press. The willow would not adequately serve its purpose without you. The fact that you've made an effort to understand the process is perhaps an indication as to the difference.
A bat maker cares about the where's, why's and who's of the process rather than being satisfied with finishing whatever turns up?