Is this acceptable?
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Chompy9760

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2022, 03:03:56 AM »

^ Interesting observation!

I was curious about how humidity affected bat weight, as we are in a mostly dry environment.  I started with an unscuffed bat that was 1145g, and stored it in a sealed (non working) fridge with a tray of water in the bottom.  It picked up 5g every few days, and after a month had put on 60g (=2.1 oz), where the weight hit a plateu.  When the tray of water was removed, it came back to where it started within a month.

It surprised me just how much it changed, but it needed some very untypical storage conditions to do it.
I can see how a bat that is a stable 1200g here, could gain an oz or two in other parts of the world, and also the other way round.
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Buzz

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2022, 08:02:07 AM »

Going back to the original question.

My son has just turned 13 and 5ft 9. He is a very strong lad who hits the ball very hard.

He has a short handled bat, but it is 2lbs 7 I think. The idea a 13 year old could use a 2lbs 11 or more bat is bonkers feel or otherwise.
Take the bat back before it is used and get something more sensible. 2lbs 9 on the scales absolute max.
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Kai

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2022, 08:08:17 AM »

Does the weight gain in a bat affect the pickup that much ? As in could someone feel a difference when swinging the bat around ?
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Northern monkey

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2022, 08:49:53 AM »

2.9 max no matter how big he is,,,I’m not exactly small, and my match bat is 2.7 now
No way I’d personally let a 13yr old even pick up a bat like that,
I would suggest weighing the bat once it’s been altered at the batmakers,just to be sure..
Keep an eye on grips/scuff sheet/tape etc as this can all add a bit of dead weight to a supposedly finished weight.

Main thing is, he needs to be able to get the bat into a position to play the ball, and his shots
And he needs to do this for more than a few shots,,,especially if he values his wicket and hangs around a bit.
A lighter weight bat will help him massively in indoor nets too, where the ball tends to come onto the bat a little quicker.

He certainly doesn’t need to be able to hit it miles or anything, the main focus should be on being able to play shots consistently and not get fatigued.

Going back many years,,,most sports shops would never let you walk out with a bat that heavy at that age,,,I remember having to practically force the guy at Romida to let me have a 3lb powerbow,as he just didn’t believe I could comfortably use that weight,(even tho I was a lot bigger in those days from gym work,,he was right).

I completely understand not disclosing the maker, but I’m sure like others, I’m a little disappointed in whoever it is

Thamesvalley

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2022, 09:38:05 AM »

Going back to the original question.

My son has just turned 13 and 5ft 9. He is a very strong lad who hits the ball very hard.

He has a short handled bat, but it is 2lbs 7 I think. The idea a 13 year old could use a 2lbs 11 or more bat is bonkers feel or otherwise.
Take the bat back before it is used and get something more sensible. 2lbs 9 on the scales absolute max.


Totally agree, taking weight out is bonkers. He should be replacing it .
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crystalmais

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2022, 10:46:06 AM »

Just something from me. My son is now 14 and only 5ft 6in but has long legs and a shorter body but we do expect him to grow to about 5ft 8in min but is skinny. I've always tried to keep his bats as light as possible. He moved to adult this season and I order via the batmaker and have stipulated 2lb 8oz or lighter fully dressed. Its helped him massively.
 
We went to see a different batmaker last year and we bought 2 bats from him totally against his advice as he felt the bats were a touch too heavy for my boy but the boy said they felt great. Low and behold after a few sessions batting, he was struggling and now these 2 bats are now sat doing nothing and I don't want to start messing with them. Same happened mid season when his 2 main bats broke due to some dodgy balls being used at a County tournament (different story as quite a few players broke bats) - we had to buy a bat from a shop and again he picked 1 that felt great (2lbs 10oz) and we bought it as a temporary bat while he got the broken ones replaced. Lo and behold 7 overs into an innings he was struggling. Thankfully one of the bat makers on here has recently taken weight off and he's using it as a net bat.
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KettonJake

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2022, 11:29:58 AM »

Cases like this are why i always tried to strongly discourage parents from buying bats at this time of year, whether as Christmas presents or otherwise. If he's an exceptionally tall lad, then when we've gotten through winter and he hasn't used it yet (winter nets aside, where you shouldn't be using a new/match bat unless you have no alternative) he might possibly have outgrown it, as there are sizes above short handle, long blade and long handle. These are rarities but they are options for taller people. So a custom bat as a 13 year olds first bat is probably not the best option. Particularly a 'blind' present experience like this, where what you've agreed and ordered is totally different to what is received (those of us who've been around long enough are probably making an educated guess on the batmaker, but looking through your old posts I suspect we are wide of the mark)
At this time of year the best option is a gift voucher, not as exciting to open on Christmas day I know, but if he already knows he's getting a bat because he went to be 'fitted' for one then the surprise of unwrapping it is somewhat lost. This voucher can be redeemed once any pre season growth spurts are out the way. 

I ran a retail shop, sure we offered custom bats from trusted batmakers but most of what we sold was off the shelf from a myriad of choice. I always tried to refuse for as long as possible to allow a child getting their first SH bat to even see the heavier bats. I wanted them to wave as many of the lighter bats around as possible. I always performed a quick test* that to me was a failsafe to show if a bat was too heavy. Those who've seen it in person will agree it is pretty effective.
Obviously brand pull was a thing, and at the time New Balance was all the rage with youngsters, but didn't offer loads of super light bats; a recipe for disaster. Thankfully most parents listened even if their child didn't, but there were always a few who blanked all the advice I could provide, and ultimately if they continue to insist they want something, then you kind of have to sell it to them or they will just go and get it elsewhere. Not saying this is wheat happened with you, but more of a general observation on this very important stage in any cricketers life; their first SH bat.

Most parents have an expectation like yourself that the bat will last a number of years, perhaps because it is more expensive than a junior equivalent, perhaps because they can't outgrow it (not quite true, see above) or perhaps because that's just the expectation of modern sports equipment. I would always try to advise the parent got a relatively cheap bat at the correct weight. It might be that as the child grows/changes physically as they get older, perhaps their playing style will change? Perhaps they will get stronger, or maybe shoot up height wise but won't fill out, so become 'weaker' ? - the point being that during the teenage years their needs from their equipment are likely to change quite often and sometimes by quite a lot. This is before you factor in the inevitable teenage trait of following fads/fashion and also probably not having much of an idea of what sort of equipment actually suits their game. You will have a lot of other equipment to buy in the coming years that will regularly become worn out, or outgrown, or both (shoes, helmets, gloves, pads, whites) - it's is likely that a bat will be no different.
The child who treats their bat with respect is one in a million in my experience. Most bats i see used by teenagers get launched around the changing room, back garden or practice nets, left in puddles (yes really!) left out in the rain, or just the plain old classic; 'I lost it' - I'm just trying to condition you to the idea that it is very unlikely he will be using the same bat by the age of 15, and that's if it suited his exact needs as they are right now and those needs don't change.

Some questions, which might prompt a better buying experience next time.

Was he wearing his batting gloves when swinging bats around? Nobody picked a bat up at Vitas Cricket without wearing batting gloves, which can weigh around 10 ounces in adult sizes. When you combine this with waggling a bat around that had roughly 3 or 4 ounces of binding, grip and stickers still to be added, we are talking about a serious amount of missing weight that is totally skewing the buying experience.
My number one pet peeve from video reviewers of the last decade was waggling a bat around with no gloves on and saying how great it felt; super pickup! Really? Must have felt like a wand when you wore your batting gloves then? Videos are just sales guff, primarily there to sell the actual bat in the video rather than sing the pros/cons of that range/model. I never got involved in that part of the market. Buy a bat by handling as many as you can in a shop or similar. As you get a feel for what you like then of course go to a batmaker you can trust and ask for what you want. I don't think I'll ever buy a piece of willow from anyone but Matt at H4L for example, as I've found what i like and trust him to provide it.

Is he likely to grow/change physique? As the answer with most teenagers is usually yes then the aforementioned advice on not overspending and committing to years of use from the same equipment is prudent. I once had a 13/14 year old walk in the door with his parents in April, he had size 8 feet and was on the cusp of a 5/6 junior bat. Purchased what was right at the time and out the door they went, parents and kid happy. By August he was a size 11 shoe and he was walking out the door with a short handle, I think they kept him in a grow bag in the greenhouse. 

Does he *really* know what he wants? You'll find that most people in his cricketing life will try and impose their own views upon him, meaning kids quite often form a quite strange concoction of various opinions about what might suit their game. His adult team captain, junior club coach, county coach, private coach, school coach, you, the shop/batmaker trying to sell him something, all of them will be telling him something different about what he should be looking for in a bat. And that's before we consider what he sees on tv, or before he starts comparing his viewpoint with the ones his mates have formed from a similar melting pot of opinions. If all his mates think differently to him, will he second guess himself?
I do like Dean Headley but he did used to frustrate me. As Cricket Master at a local school, he would actively tell parents that he wouldn't pick kids in teams unless they were using a bat that was at least a size too small, because he wanted to guarantee they were using a light bat. A stream of parents would come into the shop every year with the same story, some after I'd already sold them a bat that was 'too big' - even after they spent literally hours being sized up, got a bat they are happy with, and even used it for a few buckets of balls on our in house bowling machine, loved it, parents happy, kid happy. The following week they are back because a former England player (who must therefore know what he is talking about...... :( ) has convinced them it is too big.
Personally I preferred to sell them a bat that was a suitable weight rather than something that was obviously far too small. Eventually we came to an understanding when I deliberately (with a like minded parents permission) produced a disgustingly heavy size 6 for a particularly lanky teenager who Deano had sent in because his harrow was 'too big and too heavy, go and get a size 6 boy' (to me he was on the cusp of harrow/SH, a perfect candidate for the academy/small mens/womens size that some brands offer) - If a former England international can be so wrong, and have such a strong influence then there is every chance that less prominent people could be doing the same.

* The test
1. Have the kid hold the bat in their stance and face a wall around 10 yards or so away (distance not overly important as long as it isn't right in front of their nose, as we want them to focus on something far away) 
2. Ensure the way they are holding the bat is comfortable, but it must be 'up' - i.e. the toe facing back towards slips/keeper, similar to the image below
3. Ask them to imagine that a bowler is at the top of his run up, preparing to run in at them from the wall they are facing, stand behind them in roughly the place where a keeper would be when stood up to the stumps, and make it clear to them to focus on the bowler
4. As you remind them again to focus on the bowler, grab the toe of the bat and take on a little bit of responsibility for holding it up, allow them to feel that they are still holding the bat, but it is clear that you've reduced the feel of the weight at the toe end. At the same time ask them to take their bottom hand off the bat (the right hand for a right hander) and continue to focus on the bowler. In a perfect world, it should feel like the bat 'sinks' a little as the weight settles between your hand holding the toe up, and their top hand on the handle
5. As they are now holding the bat in their stance with their top hand, almost ready to do a classic little one handed drive to a half volley type drill to work the top arm, take a little bit more weight from them and ask them to keep focusing on the bowler who should now be running in.
6. Release the bat from your grip and allow it to drop (or not as the case may be)
7. If the toe of the bat plummets to the ground, it's definitely too heavy. If they are struggling to hold it up (shaking arm, looking back at the bat rather than concentrating on the bowler, shifting their weight, etc) then try a couple of taps down on the toe of the bat to see if you can get it to drop. The signs mentioned just now suggest it is almost certainly too heavy, but a couple of taps might tip things over the edge and confirm it for you. If they remain steady and hold the bat comfortably in a fairly typical position, even after a couple of taps, then it is likely the bat is OK from a weight/pickup perspective.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 11:37:53 AM by KettonJake »
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joeljonno

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2022, 01:24:19 PM »

I think Jake has made an excellent post, this is similar to how I learnt as a kid.  If I could pick up and play three straight bat shots, comfortably, with just my top hand, it was a "maybe", whereas if I could not, it was definitely too heavy.

It's not just the weight, but balance, as I can do it with two of my bats, but my third is a lot more difficult, yet they are all bang on 2:10. One just has a lot more wood lower down.

 
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marsbug

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2022, 09:54:56 PM »

^ Interesting observation!

I was curious about how humidity affected bat weight, as we are in a mostly dry environment.  I started with an unscuffed bat that was 1145g, and stored it in a sealed (non working) fridge with a tray of water in the bottom.  It picked up 5g every few days, and after a month had put on 60g (=2.1 oz), where the weight hit a plateu.  When the tray of water was removed, it came back to where it started within a month.

It surprised me just how much it changed, but it needed some very untypical storage conditions to do it.
I can see how a bat that is a stable 1200g here, could gain an oz or two in other parts of the world, and also the other way round.

Off topic I know, but this is the level of bat nerdery I can get behind!
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edge

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2022, 07:35:29 AM »

To play devil's advocate to what seems to be the prevailing opinion; at only a year or so older I went to the local shop to pick out my own bat for the first time, and chose a 2lb14oz long blade. Was a great decision, still possibly the best bat I've ever owned and I smacked it everywhere using it. I was an unusually large child to be fair, but the idea that a heavy bat is totally inappropriate for any teenager seems daft to me. Kids develop at very different rates and some are going to be perfectly happy using a decent weight bat. 67 extra grams on a bat certainly isn't going to injure anyone either.

Sounds like you've come to a happy conclusion anyway, getting it taken back down to the weight you'd originally specced seems sensible too.
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Kai

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2022, 07:54:17 AM »

There will always be exceptions, Tendulkar turned out to be one of the greatest players of all time though he used an extremely heavy bat from a young age. But in general I think for kids who are still growing, it's better a bat be on the lighter end to prevent hindrances in technique and injuries.
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Butterfingerzz

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2022, 10:12:46 AM »

Hi All, some of you might recognise me however I cannot manage to get access to my previous account.

I worked for a 'previous' forum favourite and dealt with many requests for both young and old some bats even for kids were bespoke designs because a kid had a bat which they liked but due to the constant swapping of models no longer made.

Can I ask the weight an size of the old bat?

Getting a kid fitted into a bat is difficult, you must think about the size, and also the size jump from their previous size and this is also the case when we discuss weight. Really we would never want to add more than 2oz to their last bat and size we would try to get the size right for them however if they've been using a bat too small or too large this become objective and you must use common sense. A bat for Christmas...this isn't wrong however it could be a gamble.

So in this cause a 13 year old at 5' 9..this is a full size bat and therefore comes with a weight increase however to keep weight down you can reduce the size of the blade and increase the handle to save up to a 3-4 oz. Unless your bat maker is able to make a bat at the right weight with a shape which can do this. The (near) perfect shape we found for this was the old GM 6 Six. Personally I would be looking at a weight around 2'4 but not 2'11 and so in my opinion the batmaker has badly advised you.

Please feel free to name and shame to others do not make these same mistakes.
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Butterfingerzz

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Re: Is this acceptable?
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2022, 10:23:21 AM »

I've been reading people's comments re. a more suitable weight with interest. So I decided to stick his current Harrow on the scales. Again I am assuming the scales are accurate, but the Harrow (used for a year) is 2'8 1/4". It sounds like he's been using heavy bats all along- despite me making an effort to always ensure he was using the right size at every step (although for some reason I clearly remember his batting coach commenting on the light weight of Ollie's bat last year).

Was the harrow from the same bat maker? A 2'8 in a harrow is heavy. Most pros use 2-9 to 2-11 and they train every day with the bat and in the gym. I really cannot see a bat of this weight helping your son and as an Advanced Coach Id be asking the parent to purchase something much lighter
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