Starting your innings against spinners
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Buzz

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Re: Starting your innings against spinners
« Reply #75 on: November 30, 2012, 08:07:51 PM »

here is a bit more from two nice chaps, mark and graham


Down the road from the England
players, their potential
successors have been practising
and playing under the charge of
two of their predecessors.
Graham Thorpe and Mark
Ramprakash, with 100 and 52
Test matches respectively for
England, are trying to groom the
next generation, in the shape of
the so-called Performance
Programme, to try to ensure that
it is better equipped than the
Englishmen who have come here
before. In future time spent in
India will be part of the training
for all potential England
internationals.
Thorpe, an excellent practitioner
in Asia who played two or three
of the most significant of all
innings by an England batsman,
said: “It is constantly hard work
for us to master the basic skill of
playing spin and really sticking
to it.
"Because of the environment
Asian players play in they can
pick length better. Ours have to
manufacture techniques so they
can stand up.
“We are always playing catch up
in a nutshell. I can only speak
for some of the work we do but
we can never think we have got
it. We should not be that
arrogant.”
Thorpe and Ramprakash will
complement each other as
batting teachers. The former was
profoundly successful in most
places but especially impressive
in Asia. His unbeaten 64 in the
dark at Karachi in December
2000 took England to one of their
other greatest away wins.
Months later he made 113no and
32no on a Colombo dustbowl to
achieve another superb victory.
The latter, who retired only last
summer, had the soundest
method of his generation of
batsmen. His temperament did
not quite match it. If he was
slightly unfulfilled as an
international cricketer, that may
make him a wiser mentor now.
He said: “The ups and downs in
my career should help me as a
coach. I can identify with
players perhaps sometimes trying
too hard, feeling under pressure
to make a mark or dealing with
disappointment. I feel I can
sympathise with guys out of the
team who have had international
experience but are back trying to
improve their game.”
Thorpe is endlessly riveting to
hear on the craft of batting.
When Graham Gooch, England’s
batting coach who also has a
fund of wisdom, calls it a day,
Thorpe will presumably succeed
him. He seems in his element
here.
“It is a job that is never done
playing spin,” he said. “It is
about having tempo. I have
always said it is being clear
about where your potential
boundary options are. If you
have four or five men around
the bat you want to get them out
so you need to know where your
attacking areas are.
“There is also a core method of
rotating the strike. That means
using the depth of the crease -
going forward or back to the
ball, trying to avoid that middle
ground which is a slight plant of
front foot or half cock position.
Before that it is about reading
length. That is vital. Then you
have to have a technique that is
quick and efficient so you can
work a ball into a gap.”
Thorpe did all of those things
well and as the England
Performance Centre batting
coach he has given the young
batsmen here tough practice
sessions the like of which they
will have never had before. In
some, he denies them the
opportunity to play the sweep,
the slog sweep or to hit over the
top, the preferred attacking
options for England players
against spin.
The Performance Programme
squad contains 17 players in all,
seven of them batsmen. No item
of groundwork is overlooked in
trying to improve them.
Ramprakash, who thinks his
future may be as a coach, said:
“It would have been amazing to
have what these kids have now. I
look on with envy, I really do
because of the opportunities they
have, the training methods to
improve, the attention to detail
both technically and mentally. It
is wonderful.
“They can be the best they can
be. Very importantly as well
there are people here working
them out as people.
"It is chalk and cheese to my
day. The attention to fitness is at
an unbelievable level. The
training the lads do is amazing.
It is all worked out for them.”
Ramprakash began in the
Middlesex team when Mike
Gatting, a superb player,
wonderful company and of the
last old-fashioned pros was still
captain.
“These days they have
supplement drinks at the end of
the game and recovery
techniques,” he said. “They are
one percenters but they add up.
When I first started recovery
techniques were probably a
curry and diet coke or watch
Gatt eat his curry and have a
few pints.”
To Eden Gardens then for
England where they have won
only once on Tony Greig’s tour
in 1976. They can expect more
trial by spin.
“Pace requires bravery,” said
Thorpe. “You can be hurt. You
will not be hurt playing spin but
if you don’t play it very well you
will look like a clown.” On this
tour at least, England can only
hope their supply of red noses
has run out.
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"Bradman didn't used to have any trigger movements or anything like that. He turned batting into a subconscious act" Tony Shillinglaw.

cheese

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Re: Starting your innings against spinners
« Reply #76 on: November 30, 2012, 08:17:06 PM »

In my limited experience of opening against spin I don't want to let the bowler settle. Ill use my feel, rotate the strike and wait for the bad ball. The worst thing that can happen is you get bogged down and end up slogging. I don't mind sweeping of off spinners but find it harder against leg spinners, the reverse sweep I can play surprisingly well against leg spinners.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 08:19:51 PM by cheese »
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biggsy143

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Re: Starting your innings against spinners
« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2012, 01:21:41 PM »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/20550214

Good article on BBC website on Graham Thorpe and playing spin, especally what he does to reproduce spinning wickets in the nets, very clever.
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Buzz

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Re: Starting your innings against spinners
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2012, 04:42:43 PM »

here is how not to do it!
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biggsy143

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Re: Starting your innings against spinners
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2012, 06:20:00 PM »

where is the like button?
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trypewriter

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Re: Starting your innings against spinners
« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2012, 11:11:06 AM »


Don't forget the confused look at the deck after you miss "it cant have been my fault, the pitch must have misbehaved etc etc"

From the non-strikers end this season I witnessed several of our players applying the: 'This guy can't turn it, I'll shoulder arms........ Oh!' technique...  :(
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Re: Starting your innings against spinners
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2012, 04:14:35 AM »

As a reluctant opener this season i didn't have to deal with spin too often. However i failed miserably against former first class player Muhammad Haroon (he's Mo Asifs agent/adviser) in a game where his side took the old ball after we dismissed them for under 70 inside 30 overs.

He had 2 men right under the bat, waiting, and 3 balls into the first over i plopped one straight into one of their laps. We ended up winning comfortably, with Haroons lob spin causing no-one else much bother.

I never used to have much problem with spin when batting at 5 or 6, but this was at a lower standard, every team in the league i play in now has at least one good spinner. I want to go back down the order as i don't really regard myself as an opener. But i'm slightly concerned at getting found out by better spin, especially because i haven't faced much spin for the last season and a half. 

This thread has helped me quite a lot since i've decided to start working on spin in the past month or so. I shall be putting more of the tips into practice over the coming weeks, hopefully i'll get a thorough going over from our spinner at nets (he was at Notts for 5 years) and he'll help me get rid of all my mistakes before the summer.

Buzz

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Re: Starting your innings against spinners
« Reply #82 on: February 05, 2013, 04:59:04 PM »

Read more at http://www.alloutcricket.com/blogs/sundries/aoc-book-club-the-plan-by-steve-james#00ShikpFXVrofdy6.99

AOC Book Club: The Plan By Steve James
.This week Steve James – former England batsman turned Daily Telegraph journalist – joins AOC Book Club. Having played under Duncan Fletcher at Glamorgan, James is a student of his coaching practises and in the following extract from his award-winning account of England’s journey from officially the worst Test side to world No.1, he reveals how the Zimbabwean revolutionised the way many of England’s batsman played spin, through the introduction of the famed ‘forward press’.
If Fletcher is famous for one particular piece of coaching advice then it is surely his urging of batsmen to use the ‘forward press’. Apologies for becoming technical here, but I do feel it is an important part of the story.

Fletcher especially advocated this trigger movement against spinners, but liked it to be used at all times if possible. It is basically a small step forward – not a lunge, because it is important that the head is kept behind the front leg – to ready the batsman before the ball is bowled.

This is how Fletcher used to explain its use to his charges. ‘This is the deal, guys,’ he would say. ‘You have a million-pound job, but the only snag is that you can only get to work each day by bus. And there is only one bus. It arrives punctually every day at eight o’clock. If you are late for work, you lose your job. So you have decision to make: do you get to the bus stop early, on time, or late?’

The answer, of course, is that you want to get there early – the ‘there’ in this case being the pitch of the ball. Ideally you would want to arrive there bang on time, but then you would run the risk of getting there late.

Trigger movements are a very modern phenomenon. Or at least the attention paid to them certainly is. In the old days batsmen were taught to stand still before the ball was bowled. And there are some players who still do that. But the truth is, however unpalatable it may be for the old-timers, that was advice dispensed in an age when all play was conducted at a slower pace. It is a dangerous policy having to make a decision so early as to where the ball will pitch when you have no idea about the degree to which the ball might swing or seam. It is much better to make small initial movements (ensuring you are momentarily still at the point of delivery, of course: a moving head means that the camera that is your eyes takes fuzzy pictures) and then another smaller movement.

That is at the heart of Fletcher’s advocacy of the forward press. On turning pitches against wily spinners many wickets are often taken at the close-catching positions of silly point and short leg. If you do not move before the ball is bowled, you are taking a big stride towards the ball and therefore creating considerable momentum towards it. It is often hard in such circumstances to stop the ball deflecting to those close fielders. Fletcher’s ‘forward press’ makes it much easier to kill the ball stone-dead in defence. How I wish I could have ‘pressed’ against the spinners (I think I naturally did so against the seamers). Fletcher tried to get me to do it, but I was too long in the tooth.

In the wet early summer of 2011 during yet another rain delay at one of the Tests against Sri Lanka, Sky Sports showed a re-run of the 1999 Sri Lanka Test at The Oval, my second and last Test. There I was, for my very last act in international cricket, lunging forward without a ‘press’ to Muttiah Muralitharan, caught at silly point off the glove. QED.

The ‘forward press’ also makes the sweep shot much easier. And Fletcher was hugely keen on the sweep, and indeed the sweep/slog. He was adamant that, especially on subcontinental pitches, they were the safest shots to play. Again the old-timers might advise to advance down the pitch and hit the ball straight, which is clearly sound counsel if you can get to the pitch of the ball and negate any spin. But what if you don’t quite get to the pitch, and the ball is spinning sharply? By still trying to hit down the ground with a straight bat, you are actually playing across the line of the ball. By sweeping you can smother that spin and you don’t need to know which way the ball is turning.

Fletcher worked out that it is better to crouch in your stance against spinners (as you naturally do in the ‘forward press’). Again this went against traditional theory. Young spin bowlers are told to flight the ball above the batsman’s eye-line, but Fletcher reckons it’s best for the batsman to be underneath that line of the ball. He thinks it is easier to pick up its length from there, with its reference points simpler to spot.

Euclid would have been proud of Fletcher. Just like the Greek mathematician who was known as the ‘father of geometry’, Fletcher loves his angles. He was constantly reminding his players of the sort of alignment requited to ‘hit the ball back where it comes from’, as the old adage goes. But that adage could be nebulous in its meaning. Fletcher made sure he was always much more specific in his advice. For example, for a left-hander bowling over the wicket, the right-hander was told to try to the hit the leg-stump at the far end. Not the stumps, but specifically the leg-stump. Or for the South African Makhaya Ntini, who bowls from very wide on the crease, to try to drill the ball straight back at his body.

With spinners, especially those who turn the ball prodigiously, it is more difficult. The old advice was always ‘play with the spin’. Say for a right-handed batsman facing a sharp-turning off-break, that would usually mean his going across his stumps to play to leg. Or for a left-hander facing the same bowler from over the wicket to close himself off and play everything through the off-side. Well, Fletcher revealed this to be tosh. ‘Try and play a straight ball with a straight bat’ were always his words. So for the right-hander to the off-spinner, it would be best to stay leg-side of the ball and, if the length was right, to play through the off-side with a straight bat, even if a dozy commentator might say ‘He’s playing against the spin there!’

It’s easier said than done, however. Marcus Trescothick had all sorts of problems understanding it, so much so that Fletcher playfully went out and bought a protractor to slip under his bedroom door on tour in Sri Lanka.

The trip to Pakistan and Sri Lanka in the winter of 2000/01 was Fletcher’s chance to put all these methods and theories into practice. This was new stuff to the England players, and, while Fletcher was making it quite plain that he thought this to be the best method, he wasn’t forcing it on anyone. Talk of the ‘forward press’, though, and two names immediately spring to mind: Trescothick and Vaughan.

Vaughan was undoubtedly the quickest of the England players to adapt to it. ‘He didn’t speak to me about it for a year or so,’ says Vaughan, which is surprising since his debut had come in South Africa in the winter of 1999/2000 and before their Asian adventure England had not been faced with too much spin thereafter, ‘but I think he felt I was a quick learner so he was never afraid of giving me new ideas. My thought when playing the forward press was that you were basically playing a forward defensive before the ball got there. That was Fletch’s theory so that you had so much more time to decide what attacking shot to play.’

Trescothick had made his international debut the previous summer, and was very much a Fletcher pick. He hung on Fletcher’s word and was very soon earning himself the nickname ‘Fletcher’s Son’. ‘The forward press changed my game really,’ he says now. ‘I started learning it in Pakistan, came home and did loads of work on it over Christmas, and then went back to Sri Lanka and it clicked. I got a hundred in the warm-up match [against Sri Lanka Colts], and then got my first Test hundred in the first Test at Galle.’

He had a different way of thinking about it from Vaughan. Trescothick would fake as if going down the pitch to the spinner. ‘I found it really hard to get used to,’ he admits. ‘I got stuck at first, so I just practised. Learning the timing was key for me. When am I going to “press”?’ You can ‘press’ too early (‘fall asleep at the bus stop’ as Fletcher says, going back to his original analogy).

Alastair Cook would never be termed a Fletcher acolyte – he was very friendly with Flintoff and Harmison, playing darts with them regularly on tour – but he knew the importance of the ‘forward press’ (as well as moving his hands lower on the bat handle, which, as Fletcher suggested, gave him more control against the spinners and was a feature of Andy Flower’s batting style too) and worked hard on its implementation into his game. It took him eight months, but he cracked it and still uses it now.

Andrew Strauss, who was not to make his Test debut until 2004, did not take to Fletcher’s methods of playing spin immediately. He preferred to play as he’d always done. Then he embarrassingly padded up to Warne at Edgbaston in 2005 and was bowled. Having turned a huge amount out of the rough outside Strauss’s off-stump, it was heralded as a ball to match Warne’s first in Ashes cricket, the one that bamboozled Mike Gatting at Old Trafford in 1993, but in truth Strauss, having gone way across his stumps, had played it poorly. He went to Fletcher afterwards and admitted that he needed to change his method against spin. Hours of work on the Merlyn machine followed.


Read more at http://www.alloutcricket.com/blogs/sundries/aoc-book-club-the-plan-by-steve-james#00ShikpFXVrofdy6.99
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Mortimer

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Re: Starting your innings against spinners
« Reply #83 on: February 05, 2013, 10:05:07 PM »

I can't play the sweep :(

then use winter nets to learn how to play it!
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farnham_quins_2

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Re: Starting your innings against spinners
« Reply #84 on: February 05, 2013, 10:14:43 PM »

Cheers for that link Buzz, good read.

Can anyone point out some youtube of this 'forward press' technique?

Im trying to get on the front foot a lot more, and it would be great to see exactly how its meant to be done?

then use winter nets to learn how to play it!

Im another one who will be using nets to try and bring the sweep into my game
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Re: Starting your innings against spinners
« Reply #85 on: March 09, 2013, 06:20:52 PM »

then use winter nets to learn how to play it!

Please try to improve your grammar.

Every sentence should begin with a capital letter; this is a well known fact, thanks.
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