Topic: Kashmir vs English (Read 5094 times)

Tom · « **on:** June 14, 2011, 03:25:42 PM »

Just read this Tweet from David Curtis from Sheffield Hallam Uni, which I thought could be an interesting discussion point.

"Research shows English Willow only 0.84% higher performance than Kashmir Willow for batted ball speed. EW #cricketbats overpriced?"
http://twitter.com/#!/davidcurtis6

Talisman · « **Reply #1 on:** June 14, 2011, 03:26:43 PM »

He spouts some utter tosh, I hope to god he isn't funded by the taxpayer.

Lekka Global Alliance · « **Reply #2 on:** June 14, 2011, 03:29:04 PM »

He must have meant Irish Willow

Howzat · « **Reply #3 on:** June 14, 2011, 03:59:01 PM »

Anyone who has ever used a Kashmir Bat and then used an English Willow bat knows this is complete and utter (No Swearing Please)

swamidude · « **Reply #4 on:** June 15, 2011, 06:33:52 AM »

I do agree with you guys, but I have had a few Kashmir's which I thought very good.

Lekka Global Alliance · « **Reply #5 on:** June 15, 2011, 06:51:55 AM »

I got one back in the mid/early 90's from Jallandhar under the brand name Hi-Tech and it was a gem of a bat plus was used for 3/4 years by a few club players after I moved to Asia.

Beachcricket · « **Reply #6 on:** June 15, 2011, 09:16:25 AM »

Quote from: Talisman on June 14, 2011, 03:26:43 PM

He spouts some utter tosh, I hope to god he isn't funded by the taxpayer.

I've just finished a Psychology degree at Loughborough and it would break your heart to see what research gets funded and published. More to the point, Kashmir bats are about as powerful as using an unpressed cleft of English willow

frankspop · « **Reply #7 on:** June 16, 2011, 09:56:10 AM »

The research was carried out at an American University, and can be read here http://bit.ly/jWRTu0.

While the conclusions drawn on the performance difference between willow species is based on a very small sample, it echoes what has been said by one or two in this strand (and elsewhere) - that you can get near-comparable performance (batted ball speed) from Kashmir willow. What is not covered is other aspects of bat performance such as durability.

The research is not "utter tosh", and it presents a position based on real data that challenges the status quo, as any good research can.

It was a bit provocative to say "is English Willow over-priced?", but I wanted to get a response and debate. I understand there are numerous Indian plant science academics and researchers working on how to grow EW species in India to replicate (or near-replicate) the willow performance from English grown trees. While they struggle to do this because of aspects such as soil characteristics, it should not be assumed that they will never do this. It is a valid assumption that the gap between EW and KW may narrow in time.

Talisman · « **Reply #8 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:12:26 AM »

It is "Utter Tosh", and far worse too, in fact the point proved by feedback on this forum would show that your comment seems to be as believable as government spin. The purpose of a bat is to enable batamen to score runs, the only true method to find out if Kashmir will perform to the standard set by English is to test the bats in match play. I think that you might find the results point to a massive gap in performance.

Having seen the GM research into cell structures in English and Kashmir willow it becomes apparant that the willow itself plays very little part in the process.

tim2000s · « **Reply #9 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:16:12 AM »

Quote from: Talisman on June 16, 2011, 10:12:26 AM

It is "Utter Tosh", and far worse too, in fact the point proved by feedback on this forum would show that your comment seems to be as believable as government spin. The purpose of a bat is to enable batamen to score runs, the only true method to find out if Kashmir will perform to the standard set by English is to test the bats in match play. I think that you might find the results point to a massive gap in performance.

Having seen the GM research into cell structures in English and Kashmir willow it becomes apparant that the willow itself plays very little part in the process.

I propose an experiment. We play two LMS style games with 16 players over the course of an afternoon.

During one game, the batsmen are all given Kashmir Willow bats. In the other, they all have English Willow bats.

The batsmen will not know what type of bat they have when, and the bats will all be stickered up with "The big bat test" stickers and front and rear facing sheets so it is not possible to see what is being used.

If the bats make that much of a difference, it should be discernible in the aggregate scores of the two matches.

Howzat · « **Reply #10 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:18:08 AM »

Quote from: frankspop on June 16, 2011, 09:56:10 AM

While they struggle to do this because of aspects such as soil characteristics, it should not be assumed that they will never do this. It is a valid assumption that the gap between EW and KW may narrow in time.

Surely its more the climate that causes the KW to be different to EW?

Talisman · « **Reply #11 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:40:58 AM »

You are correct Leo, soil plays very little part, that claim shows lack of acquired knowledge.

frankspop · « **Reply #12 on:** June 16, 2011, 11:54:32 AM »

I agree Climate is the prime difference affecting the two willows, but climate affects soil quality as well, particularly climate change.

I never claimed to be a willow expert, and happily defer to experts, such as growers. I put the tweet out on performance because it struck me as curious in light of perceived wisdom, and was hoping to spark a debate, not strike a nerve.

It's clear that English willow is superior and consistent. It is also clear that you can get very good Kashmir willow bats, but no consistent supply, and the majority of KW bats inferior to EW. But the question still holds, will that position be the same in 10 or 20 years?

The Pakistan government have begun the process of investing in the development of their sports industry, through education and infrastructure improvements. Bat making is part of that industry. The Indian economy we all know about, and it is pride more than economic value that drives them to improve their bat willow - they no longer want to be second best to the English. Is it possible? Or will EW forever be superior to KW no matter how much they try to overcome the climate differences? Is EW the finished article, or can it be improved?

Colesy · « **Reply #13 on:** June 16, 2011, 12:03:30 PM »

Question: My friend, a number 9/10/11 needs a new bat and seeing as he's not brilliant he doesn't want to fork out �70+ for a new bat and is considering a cheap Kashmir bat. Worthwhile investment?

Canners · « **Reply #14 on:** June 16, 2011, 12:06:30 PM »

Quote from: Colesy on June 16, 2011, 12:03:30 PM

Question: My friend, a number 9/10/11 needs a new bat and seeing as he's not brilliant he doesn't want to fork out �70+ for a new bat and is considering a cheap Kashmir bat. Worthwhile investment?

i reckon hed be better off borrowing someones (ew) bat tbh

Author Topic: Kashmir vs English (Read 5094 times)

Tom

Kashmir vs English

Talisman

Re: Kashmir vs English

Lekka Global Alliance

Re: Kashmir vs English

Howzat

Re: Kashmir vs English

swamidude

Re: Kashmir vs English

Lekka Global Alliance

Re: Kashmir vs English

Beachcricket

Re: Kashmir vs English

frankspop

Re: Kashmir vs English

Talisman

Re: Kashmir vs English

tim2000s

Re: Kashmir vs English

Howzat

Re: Kashmir vs English

Talisman

Re: Kashmir vs English

frankspop

Re: Kashmir vs English

Colesy

Re: Kashmir vs English

Canners

Re: Kashmir vs English