Using different woods
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Simmy

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2013, 07:12:30 AM »

I'm building a body frame for a vintage car out of it at the moment

build thread?
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Jimmyg

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2013, 11:33:48 AM »

build thread?
I'll see if I can find some photos,the wooden frame is for a 1930s Morgan.
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Banksy

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2013, 02:18:00 PM »

A lot you seem to be harping on about density...

Lead is more dense than steel...

Its not all about density, elasticity also plays a huge part. Look at baseball, they use Ash and Maple, which are hardwood's. But look at the ball itself, larger and softer than a cricket ball with alot more cloth around a smaller cork centre.
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tushar sehgal

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2013, 02:31:34 PM »

A lot you seem to be harping on about density...

Lead is more dense than steel...

Its not all about density, elasticity also plays a huge part. Look at baseball, they use Ash and Maple, which are hardwood's. But look at the ball itself, larger and softer than a cricket ball with alot more cloth around a smaller cork centre.

Small correction mate, Baseball is same size and weight as a cricket ball, just softer, although softball is much bigger and heavier but also softer..you point about elasticity is correct..
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tushar sehgal

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2013, 02:34:39 PM »

Elastic And Non-Elastic Woods
THE most elastic woods are those in which the annual or longitudinal fibres are the straightest, and the least interwoven with the medullary rays, and which are the least interrupted by the presence of knots; such woods arc also the most easily rent, and the plainest in figure, as the lanccwood, hickory and ash; whereas other woods, in which the fibres are more crossed and interlaced, are considerably tougher and more rigid; they arc also less disposed to split in a straight or economical manner, as oak, beech and mahogany, which, although moderately elastic, do not bend with the facility of those before named.

Fishing-rods, unless made of bamboo, have generally ash for the lower joint, hickory for the two middle pieces, and a strip cut of a bamboo of three or four inches diameter as the top joint. Archery bows are another example of elastic works; the "single-piece bow" is made of one rod of hickory, lanccwood, or yew tree, which last, if perfectly free from knots, is considered the most suitable wood: the "back or union bow" is made of two or sometimes three pieces glued together. The back-piece, or that furthest from the string, is of rectangular section, and always of lanccwood or hickory; the belly, which is nearly of semicircular section, is made of any hardwood that can be obtained straight and clean, as ruby-wood, rose-wood, green-heart, king-wood, snake-wood, and several others: it is in a great measure a matter of taste, as the elasticity is principally due to the back-piece; the palmyra is also used for bows.*

The elasticity or rather the flexibility of the woods, is greatly increased for the time, when they are heated by steaming or boiling: the process is continually employed for bending the oak two other sets of experiments on Indian timber woods, by Captain H. C. Baker, late of the Bengal Artillery, superintendent of the half-wrought timber-yard, Calcutta, at pp. 123 and 230 of the Gleanings of Science, published at Calcutta, 1829. * The union bow is considered to be "softer," that is more agreeably elastic than the single-piece bow, even when the two require the same weight to draw them to the length of the arrow. In the act of bending the bow, the back is put into tension, and the inner piece into a state of compression, and each wood is then employed in its most suitable manner. Sometimes the union bow is imitate by one solid piece of straight cocoa-wood, (of the West Indies, not that of the cocoa-nut palm,) in which case the tough fibrous sap is used for the back, and in its nature sufficiently resembles the lance-wood more generally used.

The woods are steamed in suitable vessels, and are screwed or wedged, at short intervals throughout their length, in contact with rigid patterns or moulds, and whilst under this restraint they are allowed to become perfectly cold; the pieces are then released. These bent works suffer very little departure from the forms thus given, and they possess the great advantage of the grain being parallel with the curve, which adds materially to their strength, saves much cost of material and time in the preparation, and gives in fact a new character to the timber.

The inner and outer plankings of ships are steamed or boiled before they are applied; they are brought into contact with the ribs by temporary screw-bolts which are ultimately replaced by the copper bolts inserted through the three thicknesses and riveted: or they are secured by oak or locust tree-nails, which are caulked at each end.*

Boiling and steaming are likewise employed for softening the woods, to facilitate the cutting as well as bending of them.†

When the two sets of fibres meet in confused angular directions, they produce the tough cross-grained woods, such as lignum-vitae, elm, etc, and, like the diagonal braces in carpentry and shipping, they deprive the mass of elasticity, and dispose it rather to break than to bend, especially when the pieces are thin, and the fibres crop out on both sides of the same; the confusion of the fibres is, at the same time, a fertile source of beauty in appearance to most woods.

* See the description of Mr. William Hookey's apparatus for bending ships' timbers, rewarded by the Society of Arts, and described in their Trans., vol. 32, p. 91.

Preference is now given to the "Steam Kiln " over the "Water Kiln," and the time allowed is one hour for every inch of the thickness of the timber; it loses much extractive matter in the process, which is never attempted a second time, as the wood then becomes brittle.

Colonel G. A. Lloyd devised an ingenious and economical mode of bending the timbers to constitute the ribs of a teak-bridge which he built in the Mauritius. Every rib was about 180 ft. long, and of 8 ft. rise, and consisted of five thicknesses of wood of various lengths and widths. The wood had been cut down about a month; it was well steamed and brought into contact with a strong mould, by means of an iron chain attached to a hook at the one extremity of the mould and passed under a roller fixed at the other; the chain was drawn tight by a powerful capstan. Whilst under restraint the neighbouring pieces were pinned together by tree-nails, after which a further portion of the rib was proceeded with: the seasoning of the timber was also effected by the process.

† Thus in Taylor's Patent Machinery for making casks, the blocks intended for the staves are cut out of white Canada oak to the size of thirty inches by five, and smaller. They are well steamed, and then sliced into pieces one-half or five-eighths inch thick, at the rate of 200 in each minute, by a process far more rapid and economical than sawing; the instrument being a revolving iron plate of 12 or 14 feet diameter, with two radial knives, arranged somewhat like the irons of an ordinary plane or spokeshave.

Elm is perhaps the toughest of the European woods; it is considered to bear the driving of bolts and nails better than any other, and it is on this account, and also for its great durability under water, constantly employed for the keels of ships, for boat-building, and a variety of works requiring great strength and exposure to wet.

A similar rigidity is also found to exist in the crooked and knotted limbs of trees from the confusion amongst the fibres, and such gnarled pieces of timber, especially those of oak, were in former days particularly valued for the knees of ships: of later years they have been in a great measure superseded by iron knees, which can be more accurately and effectively moulded at the forge to suit their respective places, and they cause a very great saving in the available room of the vessel.

The lipium-vitae is a most peculiar wood, as its fibres seem arranged in moderately thick layers,crossing each other obliquely, often at as great an angle as thirty degrees with the axis of the tree; when the wood is split, it almost appears as if the one layer of annual fibres grew after the manner of an ordinary screw, and the succeeding layer wound the other way so as to cross them like a left hand screw. The interlacement of the fibres in lignnm-vitae is so rigid and decided, although irregular, that it exceeds all other woods in resistance to splitting, which cannot be effected with economy; the wood is consequently always prepared with the saw. It is used for works that have to sustain great pressure and rough usage, several examples of which are given under the head Lignum-vitae:, in the Catalogue already referred to.



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tushar sehgal

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2013, 02:37:13 PM »

Useful Characters Of Woods. Section I. - Hard And Soft Woods, Etc
The relative terms hard and soft, elastic or non-elastic, and the proportions of resins, gums, etc, as applied to the woods, appear to be in a great measure explained by their examination under the microscope, which develops their structure in a very satisfactory manner.

The fibres of the various woods do not appear to differ so materially in individual size or bulk, as in their densities and distances: those of the soft woods, such as willow, alder, and deal, appear slight and loose; they are placed rather wide asunder, and present considerable intervals for the softer and more spongy cellular tissue between them; whereas in oak, mahogany, ebony, and rosewood, the fibres appear rather smaller, but as if they possessed a similar quantity of matter, just as threads containing the same number of filaments are larger or smaller accordingly as they are spun. The fibres are also more closely arranged in the harder woods, the intervals between them are necessarily less, and the whole appears a more solid and compact formation.

The very different tools used by the turner for the soft woods and hard woods respectively, may have assisted in fixing these denominations as regards his art; a division that is less specifically entertained by the joiner, who uses the same tools for the hard and soft woods, excepting a trifling difference in their angles and inclinations; whereas the turner employs for the soft woods, tools with keen edges of thirty or forty degrees, applied obliquely, and as a tangent to the circle; and for the hard woods, tools of from seventy to ninety degrees upon the edge, applied as a radius, and parallel with the fibres, if so required. The tools last described answer very properly for the dense woods, in which the fibres are close and well united; but applied to the softer kinds, in which the filaments are more tender and less firmly joined, the hard-wood tools produce rough, torn, and unfinished surfaces.

In general the weight or specific gravity of the woods may be taken as a sure criterion of their hardness; for instance, the hard lignum-viaae, boxwood, ironwood, and others, are mostly so heavy as to sink in water; whereas the soft firs, poplar and willow, do not on the average exceed half the weight of water, and other woods are of intermediate kinds.*

The density or weight of many of the woods may be increased by their mechanical compression, which may be carried to the extent of fully one third or fourth of their primary bulk, and the weight and hardness obtain a corresponding increase. This has been practised for the compression of tree-nails for ships, by driving the pins through a metal ring smaller than themselves directly into the hole in the ship's side;† at other times, (for railway purposes,) the woods have been passed through rollers, but this practice has been discontinued, as it is found to spread the fibres laterally, and to tear them asunder;‡ an injury that does not occur when they are forced through a ring, which condenses the wood at all parts alike, without any disturbance of its fibrous structure, § even when tested by the

* The most dense wood I have met with is in Mr. Fincham's collection; it is the Iron Bark wood from New South Wales: in appearance it resembles a close hard mahogany,but more brown than red; its specific gravity is 1.426, - its strength, (compared with English oak, taken as usual at 1.000,) is 1*557. On the other hand the lightest of the true woods is probably the Cortica, or the Anona palustris, from Brazil, in Mr. Mier's collection; the specific gravity of this is only 0.206, (whereas that of cork is 0.240,) it has only one-seventh the weight of the Iron Bark wood. The Cortina resembles ash in colour and grain, except that it is paler, finer, and much softer; it is used by the natives for wooden shoes, etc.

The Pita wood, that of the Fourcroya gigantea, of the Brazils, an endogen almost like pith, (used by the fishermen of Rio de Janeiro, as a slow match, for lighting cigars, etc.; also like cork for lining the drawers of cabinets for insects,) and the rice paper plant of India and China, which is still lighter and more pithy, can hardly be taken into comparison.

† Mr. Annersley's Patent, 1821, for building vessels of planks only, without ribs.

‡ Dublin and Kingston Railway.

§ The mode at present practised by the Messrs. Ransoms of Ipswich, (under their patent,) is to drive the pieces of oak into an iron ring by means of a screw press, and to expose them within the ring to a temperature of about 180° for twelve or sixteen hours before forcing them out again.

The tree-nails may be thus compressed into two-thirds their original size, and they recover three-fourths of the compression on being wetted; they are used for microscope; after compression the wood is so much harder, that it cuts very differently, and the pieces almost ring when they are struck together; fir may be thus compressed into a substance as close as pitch-pine.

In many of the more dense woods, we also find an abundance of gum or resin, which fills up many of those spaces that would be otherwise void: the gum not only makes the wood so much the heavier, but at the same time it appears to act in a mechanical manner, to mingle with the fibres as a cement, and to unite them into a stronger mass; for example, it is the turpentine that gives to the outer surface of the annual rings of the red and yellow deals, the hard horny character, and increases the elasticity of those timbers.*

Those woods which are the more completely impregnated with resin, gum, or oil, are in general also the more durable, as they are better defended from the attacks of moisture and insects.

Timbers alternately exposed to wet and dry, are thought by Tredgold and others, to suffer from losing every time a certain portion of their soluble parts; if so, those which are naturally impregnated with substances insoluble in water may, in consequence, give out little or none of their component parts in the change from wet to dry, and on that account the better resist decay: this has been artificially imitated by forcing oil, tar, etc, through the pores of the wood from the one extremity.†

Many of the woods are very durable when constantly wet; the generality are so when always dry, although but few are suited to withstand the continual change from one to the other state; but these particulars, and many points of information respecting timber-woods that concern the general practice of the builder, or naval architect, such as their specific gravities, relative strengths, resistances to bending and compression, and other characters, are treated of in Tredgold's Elements of Carpentry, at considerable length. ‡ railway purposes, but appear equally desirable for ship-building, in which the treenails fulfil an important office, and in either case their after-expansion fixes them most securely. - See Minutes, Inst. Civ. Eng., 1841, p. 83-7.

* See the treatment of the Firs in Norway, article Firs, in Catalogue.

† The durability of pitch pine, when "wet and dry," is however questioned.

‡ The work contains a variety of the most useful tables: the reader will likewise find a set of tables of similar experiments on American timbers, by Lieut. Denison, Royal Engineers, F.R.S., etc, in the Trans. Inst. Civ. Eng., vol. ii. p. 15, and also and other timbers for ship-building, the lance-wood shafts for carriages, the staves of casks, and various other works.



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tushar sehgal

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2013, 02:38:02 PM »

Ornamental Characters Of Woods. Section I. - Fibre Or Grain, Knots, Etc
The ornamental figure or grain of many of the woods, appears to depend as much or more upon the particular directions and mixings of the fibres, as upon their differences of colour. I will first consider the effect of the fibre, assisted only by the slight variation of tint, observable between the inner and outer surfaces of the annual layers, and the lighter or more silky character of the medullary rays.

If the tree consisted of a series of truly cylindrical rings, like the tubes of a telescope, the horizontal section would exhibit circles; the vertical, parallel straight lines; and the oblique section would present parts of ovals; but nature rarely works with such formality, and but few trees are either exactly circular or straight, and therefore although the three natural sections have a general disposition to the figures described, every little bend and twist in the tree disturbs the regularity of the fibres, and adds to the variety and ornament of the wood.

The horizontal section, or that parallel with the earth, only displays the annual rings and medullary rays, as in fig. 1, p. 14, and this division of the wood is principally employed by the turner, as it is particularly appropriate to his works, the strength and shrinking being alike at all parts of the circumference, in the blocks and slices cut out of the entire tree, and tolerably so in those works turned out of the quarterings or parts of the transverse pieces.

But as the cut is made intermediate between the horizontal line, and the one parallel with the axis, the figure gradually slides into that of the ordinary plank, magnified portions of which are shown in figs. 2 and 3: and these are almost invariably selected for carpentry, etc.

The oblique slices of the woods possess neither the uniformity of grain of the one section, nor the strength of the other, and it old be likewise a most wasteful method of cutting up the timber; it is therefore only retorted to for thin veneers, when some particular figure or arrangement of the fibres has to be obtained for the purrposes of Ornamental eabinet-work.

The perendicular cut through the heart of the tree is not only the hardest but the most diversfied, because therein occurs the greatest mixture and variety of the fibres, the first and the last of which, in point of age, are then presented in the same plank; but of course the density and diversity lessen as the board is cut further away from the axis. In general the radial cut is also more ornamental than the tangental, as in the former the medullary rays produce the principal effect, because they are then displayed in broader masses, and are considered to contain the greater proportion of the colouring matter of the wood.

The section through the heart displays likewise the origin of most of the branches, which arise first as knots, in or near the central pith, and then work outwards in directions corresponding with the arms of the trees, some of which, as in the cypress and oak grow out nearly horizontally, and others, as in the poplar, shoot up almost perpendicularly.

Those parts of wood described as curls, arc the result of the confused filling in of the space between the forks, or the springings of the brnnehes. Fig. 9 represents the section of a piece of yew-tree, which shows remarkably well the direction of the main stem A B, the origin of the branch C, and likewise the formation of the curl between B and C; fig. 10 is the end view of the stem at A. In many woods, mahogany especially, the curls are particularly large, handsome and variegated, and are generally produced as explained.

Fig. 9.

 
Fig. 10.

 
It would appear as if the germs of the primary branches were set at a very early period of the growth of the central stem, and gave rise to the knots, many of which however fail to penetrate to the exterior so as to produce branches, but are covered over by the more vigorous deposition of the annual rings. All these knots and branches, act as so many disturbances and interruptions to the uniformity of the principal zones of fibres, which appear to divide to make way for the passage of the off-shoots, each of which possesses in its axis a filament of the pith, so that the branch resembles the general trunk in all respects, except in bulk, and again from the principal branches smaller ones continually arise, ending at last in the most minute twigs, each of which is distinctly continuous with the central pith of the main stem, and fulfils its individual share in causing the diversity of figure in the wood.

The knots are commonly harder than the general substance, and that more particularly in the softer woods; the knots of the deals, for example, begin near the axis of the tree, and at first show the mingling of the general fibres with those of the knot, much the same as in the origin of the branch of the yew in fig. 9, but after a little while it appears as if the branch, from elongating so much more rapidly than the deposition of the annual rings upon the main stem, soon shot through and became entirely detached, and the future rings of the trunk were bent and turned slightly aside when they encountered the knot, but without uniting with it in any respect.

This may explain why the smooth cylindrical knots of the outer boards of white deal, pine, etc, so frequently drop out when exposed on both sides in thin boards; whereas the turpentine in the red and yellow deals may serve the part of a cement, and retain these kinds the more firmly.

The elliptical form of the knots in the plank, is mostly due to the oblique direction in which they are cut, and their hardness, (equal to that of many of the tropical hard woods,) to the close grouping of the annual rings and fibres of which they are themselves composed. These are compressed by the surrounding wood he parent stem, at the time of deposition; whereas the principal layers of the stem of the tree are opposed alone by the loosened and yielding bark, and only obtain the ordinary density.



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Banksy

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2013, 02:43:42 PM »

Small correction mate, Baseball is same size and weight as a cricket ball, just softer, although softball is much bigger and heavier but also softer..you point about elasticity is correct..

They are slightly larger and slightly lighter...
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tushar sehgal

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2013, 02:52:01 PM »

They are slightly larger and slightly lighter...

you are now splitting hairs :) but accepted...
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trypewriter

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2013, 03:09:19 PM »

Lignum Vitae used to be used to make bowls - the sort Francis Drake used, not the sort you have soup in. Very hard, and yes it does sink. It also used to be used to make bearings. It is very hard to 'work'. Elm used to be used to make dartboards. They need to be soaked thoroughly before use, otherwise the darts won't penetrate. Back in the day, pubs used to have several on the go, one for play and another couple soaking.
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tim2000s

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2013, 03:41:39 PM »

The point being that there are a number of factors relating to specific wood structure that also affect the ability to be used as a bat, including elasticity, fibre structure and other aspects that affect ease of cleft creation.

And for the record, Willow is also a Hardwood. It is just a softer hardwood.
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Sam

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2013, 04:08:13 PM »

So it would be largely down to trial and error if someone did try and experiment then?
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tim2000s

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Re: Using different woods
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2013, 04:11:12 PM »

So it would be largely down to trial and error if someone did try and experiment then?
I suspect that somewhere there is a way of determining which woods have similar mechanical properties to Willow, and then using that data to get you started, but I don't know where.
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