Topic: The Ashes 2013 (Read 150704 times)

vividgreen · « **Reply #1035 on:** July 26, 2013, 01:45:32 PM »

Vic, it looks like we are from the same era.
I remember I had to earn my stripes if I wanted to be a bowler or bat in the top order...... It was never gifted to me...

The_Bird · « **Reply #1036 on:** July 26, 2013, 01:53:48 PM »

The powers that be can never get these things right, if they favourite the kid with all the skills at a young age then the other less skill full players get left behind. Whereas if they let everyone have a go then the player with all the skills won't progress as he should. I think it's down to the coaches to identify the gifted players and get them into county and regional sides allowing them to fulfil their potential without hindering them or their club youth sides. From the small bit of coaching I've done it's relatively easy to know who are the fast developers and who may need to Learn their craft at a slightly different pace.

One thing I have noticed is the lack of youth teams at club level. We have had cancellations through lack of players from some premier league clubs this year which is embarrassing to be honest. These club mark clubs seem to get what they want from the funding and then neglect the youth systems that opened up the doors in the first place.

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #1037 on:** July 26, 2013, 03:07:08 PM »

Quote from: The_Bird on July 26, 2013, 01:53:48 PM

One thing I have noticed is the lack of youth teams at club level. We have had cancellations through lack of players from some premier league clubs this year which is embarrassing to be honest. These club mark clubs seem to get what they want from the funding and then neglect the youth systems that opened up the doors in the first place.

You sound surprised. This is exactly what I'd expect to happen. There are less people interested in doing anything other than turning up on game day and playing, then going home (most like to be the 'star' as well, makes them feel better). As for funding, it's easy money!!

lots of clubs have youth teams but few are actually teaching these kids values and skills.. most are just milking them for the cash and it's just a glorified youth club/childminding

Vic Nicholas · « **Reply #1038 on:** July 26, 2013, 03:07:32 PM »

Quote from: vividgreen on July 26, 2013, 01:45:32 PM

Vic, it looks like we are from the same era.
I remember I had to earn my stripes if I wanted to be a bowler or bat in the top order...... It was never gifted to me...

My first season in U12s, I simply made up the numbers.

I never bowled and from number 11, I reckon I batted maybe three times in the whole season as we were a strong side.

I also did not get selected at all sometimes.

By my second season in U12s, I won the batting averages in a canter and was also leading wicket taker opening both the batting and the bowling. I also won best finals player in a premiership win averaging 60 as a 12 year old.

If you loved the game, you work hard to improve your skills so you can be involved.

Those that ere not as dedicated quit. I am talking guys who would get a bat every week and get thrown the ball regularly. In my first season I watched these coaches favourites get opportunity after opportunity. Did it foster in them a love of the game having all these opportunities gifted to them?

Nup.

The guys that had to fight to succeed were the ones left standing six years later when we won another flag in our last year of junior cricket together in U16s.

It was a system that worked...the very Darwinian survival of the fittest.

But, it has been dismantled to give everyone a go, even those that don't particularly want it.

There was a time when the government only funded a handful of sports in Australia....but we were world champions in each and every one of those handful of sports.

Nowadays, the funding amount allocated is still the same, but each sport gets less, because the Oz government funds ALL sports....including many marginal at best sports where we have next to no chance of being any good at, like bloody trampolining etc.

In the old days, it was swimming, cricket, hockey, rugby union, athletics and tennis pretty much...and we were pretty good in all of them.

Now we are competitive in hundreds of sports...too many to mention, but we are not world champions in practically anything.

I just cannot see the point.

Vic Nicholas · « **Reply #1039 on:** July 26, 2013, 03:17:16 PM »

Quote from: ProCricketer1982 on July 26, 2013, 03:07:08 PM

You sound surprised. This is exactly what I'd expect to happen. There are less people interested in doing anything other than turning up on game day and playing, then going home (most like to be the 'star' as well, makes them feel better). As for funding, it's easy money!!

lots of clubs have youth teams but few are actually teaching these kids values and skills.. most are just milking them for the cash and it's just a glorified youth club/childminding

On the radio here the other day a caller stated that cricket is a dying sport in Australia, and if not for the influx of Indian, Sri Lankan and Pakistani immigrants, many cricket clubs would already have disappeared already.

From personal experience, I can vouch for the fact that one club in particular that I play against has under gone a near 100% change over in ethnic demographics in four short years. Four years ago they were an Anglo Celtic team with one token Indian guy in their line up. Now, they are an almost exclusively Indian and Pakistani club with only the crusty old wicket keeper as the token white guy hanging in there. If the Sub Continental lads had not come along, this club would already be extinct....in four short years!!!

The caller also noted that "you cannot get Generation Xers involved in community activities like volunteering to help run cricket clubs" like people did in the past. They can barely be roused to even play the game at club level, let alone find the motivation to show up to training or get involved in some kind of way.

Most cricket clubs have dispensed with junior teams because of lack of numbers. That spells doom ultimately...and if the wise old heads are right, cricket is on the road to extinction in Australia. Hard as that is to believe.

I am a bit more bullish about the games prospects, but you can never be complacent.

It would break my heart if the game ends up becoming an oddity that only old coots play.

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #1040 on:** July 26, 2013, 03:29:02 PM »

The game will never die out (IMO) BUT it will shrink. England especially had a massive boom following 2005 Ashes. Since then (if you exclude things like 'chance to shine' etc) I'd imagine the numbers participating in ADULTS cricket took a rise, and is now falling away again. Juniors had a massive boom as the ECB cottoned on to the cash available in youth cricket and so clubs cottoned on with 'club mark'.

You will always get some that will be prepared to do 'donkey work' for clubs BUT in each generation there are less and less open to it. For various reasons too numerous to name here. What I believe will be the case in 20 years is you'll have a few 'big' clubs with numerous sides (as they will have had the cash investment and probably multiple grounds) and then you'll have a few other clubs who just struggle on with minimul facilities and then council pitches (although these will get less and less).. Eventually there will be too few grounds, too few teams for people who want to play, so you'll just lose people out the game as they won't get regular sat/sun games.

Add to that I can see sundays moving towards crappy T20 style games, saturdays moving to more 40 over games (which isn't as much fun). Sunday leagues boomed and now seem to be struggling with teams basically fielding friendly xi's or just plainly pulling out of games.

I know how I'd go about fixing it but that would mean teh ECB doing the decent thing and they won't do it as it's costly and they like their idea of academies/club mark clubs

lukemannionzimbabwe · « **Reply #1041 on:** July 26, 2013, 05:15:50 PM »

Well My goal is to come and play cricket in australia, and in zim the junior set up is different, from grade 3 (8-9 year olds) they play 20 20, and they do that until grade 6/7 (11/12), there they play 25 overs, rules are normal, unlimited batting time, 4 overs per bowler for 20 and 5 for 25, then the next year in high school, (form 1 to form 6) they play fifty over cricket, normal rules, with the exception of some 20 20's, some declaration 2 day cricket and some 3 day cricket. you are expected to bat youre full 50 or full 2 days etc... the problem is there is no money in the sports ( as a whole) in zimbabwe, so after high school everyone leaves and never comes back. Sam Curran some of you english may know, before his dad died, living in zim, scored 254 for his school st georges, against an esteemed school, falcon, in fifty over cricket and he faced the first and last ball. they have subsequently moved to england, and tom curran has now been signed by surrey (http://www.kiaoval.com/surrey-sign-tom-curran/) and he was considered here to be ''alot less talented than his boet sam.'' You may have also heard about ryan burl, another ex Zimbo, 20 years old, living in england,(watch out for him ;http://www.espncricinfo.com/zimbabwe/content/player/495964.html ) and is doing quite well and will hopefully go though and get to bigger heights. You all also of course know Gary Ballance, who i knew personally, that is doing wonders down there, so you know it is a great showcase to the zimbabwean junior cricket, but the franchise and national junior setup in all sports is not at all good and is not funded.

Alvaro · « **Reply #1042 on:** July 26, 2013, 09:22:47 PM »

Grade 3 is a large age range

uknsaunders · « **Reply #1043 on:** July 26, 2013, 10:23:52 PM »

Quote from: The_Bird on July 26, 2013, 01:53:48 PM

Ive noticed is the lack of youth teams at club level. We have had cancellations through lack of players from some premier league clubs this year which is embarrassing to be honest. These club mark clubs seem to get what they want from the funding and then neglect the youth systems that opened up the doors in the first place.

lol - don't get me started on clubmark!

Clubmark was designed to cut funding to thousands of cricket clubs and concentrate it in the "elite" few. The ECB took this view about a decade ago and effectively signed the death warrant of village cricket. Only seriously well organised and large clubs in general get clubmark, and in turn become bigger and better funded. They become focus clubs in their area and mop up the young talent from other clubs ie. want to play county colts, go to x club. The non-clubmark clubs get weaker and weaker. Survival of the fittest yes, but it moves cricket away from being a recreational game enjoyed by all to specialised sport played by the minority.

I'll give you an example of classic clubmark/funding abuse. A club near me in Yorks won a big funding grant for womens cricket, lots of big plans to be a major focus club etc. They used most of the grant on building a 4 lane state of the art net facility. While it helped the women, no doubt it helped the men more. All my daughters played for this club for a year or so, then they were told the teams would be combined across age ranges and then no actual games were played. Two of my daughters were nearly at county/district level at the time but received no funding or training from the club. The best they could do was let them bat 11 and not bowl in the womens team (who were short most of the time). They even then tried to ask for �50 subs for 3 games. Basically there was no money to train the girls and the clubs girls section died to my knowledge, as did my daughters cricket careers. Nwo without the focus club for womens cricket in that area, no serious girls cricket coaching or matches exists. Had multiple clubs been given smaller and regular grants, then girls cricket might of been played in many more locations. Not to the same standard but more girls would be able to play and isn't that the point? Put all your eggs in one basket and keep your fingers crossed isn't always the best way!

lukemannionzimbabwe · « **Reply #1044 on:** July 27, 2013, 05:25:35 AM »

Quote from: Alvaro on July 26, 2013, 09:22:47 PM

Grade 3 is a large age range

Haha. Sorry, changed that

Marc28 · « **Reply #1045 on:** July 29, 2013, 04:33:42 AM »

Glad to see young James Taylor being given another chance as he played really well last year against the South Africans, and yesterday against a decent Aussie attack did the hard work and looked really solid, i have no problems with him playing if KP isnt passed fit, but would that mean a slight shuffle in the batting order, with Bell going in at 4 or would Taylor go 4 and Bell stay at 5.
Good problem to have from an England point of view.

Manormanic · « **Reply #1046 on:** July 29, 2013, 05:42:50 AM »

Quote from: uknsaunders on July 26, 2013, 10:23:52 PM

Clubmark was designed to cut funding to thousands of cricket clubs and concentrate it in the "elite" few. The ECB took this view about a decade ago and effectively signed the death warrant of village cricket. Only seriously well organised and large clubs in general get clubmark, and in turn become bigger and better funded. They become focus clubs in their area and mop up the young talent from other clubs ie. want to play county colts, go to x club. The non-clubmark clubs get weaker and weaker. Survival of the fittest yes, but it moves cricket away from being a recreational game enjoyed by all to specialised sport played by the minority.

What irks me more than the gradual seep of players toward these so called big clubs is the arbitrary nature of clubmark. My club is not small - we run four Saturday sides, a Sunday XI, midweek and four age groups of colts - but is not as big as, or playing in as high a league as, some other local sides. So when we come to apply for Clubmark, we get precisely no help or encouragement from the ECB/County Association, who arrange a single meeting to tell us what hoops they want us to jump through - and many of them are just that, hoops that brings no benefit to club or members, but merely allow the ECB to keep smaller clubs with fewer volunteers down. Meanwhile, other local sides get fancy facilities and - this one really bugs me - top notch overseas professionals funded by the same august body!

Jacky · « **Reply #1047 on:** July 29, 2013, 07:45:39 AM »

The Australian tour match is complete and the result was a draw. Some positives for both teams were Steve Smith and James Taylor both making undefeated hundreds as well as Phil Hughes with scores of 84 and 36, Ed Cowan with 66 and 77* and Rory Hamiliton-Brown hitting a quick-fire 77 of 51 balls. The pick of the bowlers were Bird for Australia and Hatchett for Sussex.

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #1048 on:** July 29, 2013, 04:41:31 PM »

Quote from: Manormanic on July 29, 2013, 05:42:50 AM

What irks me more than the gradual seep of players toward these so called big clubs is the arbitrary nature of clubmark. My club is not small - we run four Saturday sides, a Sunday XI, midweek and four age groups of colts - but is not as big as, or playing in as high a league as, some other local sides. So when we come to apply for Clubmark, we get precisely no help or encouragement from the ECB/County Association, who arrange a single meeting to tell us what hoops they want us to jump through - and many of them are just that, hoops that brings no benefit to club or members, but merely allow the ECB to keep smaller clubs with fewer volunteers down. Meanwhile, other local sides get fancy facilities and - this one really bugs me - top notch overseas professionals funded by the same august body!

I really hope the last bit isn't true!! A top overseas who's miles too good for that club serves no benefit to the system other than artificially raise a club above it's natural station. I'd personally rather see the ECB invest in more clubs and just gradually improve the general standard and look to have MORE people playing in general, regardless of ability. giving every club a decent roller, grass cutter, boundary rope, electronic scoreboard, roll on covers etc is going to raise the standard for more people than just helping the odd 'big' club who genearlly just have ego's playing for them anyway 'I play in x league so I must be better than you'.. Maybe fella.. but also maybe not as your side is probably carried there by a overseas.

Manormanic · « **Reply #1049 on:** July 29, 2013, 05:49:24 PM »

Quote from: ProCricketer1982 on July 29, 2013, 04:41:31 PM

I really hope the last bit isn't true!! A top overseas who's miles too good for that club serves no benefit to the system other than artificially raise a club above it's natural station. I'd personally rather see the ECB invest in more clubs and just gradually improve the general standard and look to have MORE people playing in general, regardless of ability. giving every club a decent roller, grass cutter, boundary rope, electronic scoreboard, roll on covers etc is going to raise the standard for more people than just helping the odd 'big' club who genearlly just have ego's playing for them anyway 'I play in x league so I must be better than you'.. Maybe fella.. but also maybe not as your side is probably carried there by a overseas.

okay, cards on the table - can I prove that the ECB money went straight into the pocket of the overseas pro? No.

Can I show clubs who had previously had a decent Aussie grade player on a working holiday visa moving on to Zimbabwean test players, South African State players and lads fresh out of the Australian under 19 side? Yes. Can I demonstrate that those same players were paid a lot of money for coaching the clubs colts - and, in recent years, for work in schools under that other ECB stitch up the Chance to Shine program? Hell yes.

Okay, some times it works - near me Eastcote are a good example, because for all the money they have had pumped in, they've produced near enough half the current Middlesex side (and all but one of the home grown players) in return. But there are plenty that don't fall in that boat...

Author Topic: The Ashes 2013 (Read 150704 times)

vividgreen

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The_Bird

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ProCricketer1982

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Vic Nicholas

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Vic Nicholas

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ProCricketer1982

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lukemannionzimbabwe

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Alvaro

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uknsaunders

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lukemannionzimbabwe

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Marc28

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Manormanic

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Jacky

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ProCricketer1982

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Manormanic

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