Topic: Moeen Ali - Possible International Player? (Read 3869 times)

A-Swing-And-A-Miss · « **Reply #15 on:** October 21, 2013, 09:26:21 AM »

Quote from: TangoWhiskey on October 21, 2013, 09:01:52 AM

I didn't say he was better than Bairstow, I said he'd be better for the balance of the side with what he brings with his bowling. His bowling might not be international standard but when you are playing only 4 front line bowlers it would be good to have someone who can get it down the other end to take some of the work load. Mind you, Bairstow is the best fielder in the side at the minute, so you'd be losing something there.

If they want balance, they'll pick Ballance.

As someone has already said, England have Root to do the job as a 2nd spinner, so would we really need a third?

wasted_talent · « **Reply #16 on:** October 21, 2013, 09:26:53 AM »

Quote from: Manormanic on October 21, 2013, 09:16:57 AM

He has looked a better player over the last couple of seasons, yes, but my point is that even with that he's only pushed his average up to a level that is solidly unremarkable for a guy who has only played a single season of division one cricket in his career. Even in those good years his stats have been no better than the other contenders, despite them playing at the higher level (Bairstow, Ballance, Taylor, Chopra, Compton, Vince), so my view remains that he would need to prove that his spin was in itself a reason to select him...

Yep good points, like u say, its his ability with the ball that may prove crucial. Will be interesting to see how well he does for the Lions..

wasted_talent · « **Reply #17 on:** October 21, 2013, 09:28:03 AM »

Quote from: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on October 21, 2013, 09:26:21 AM

If they want balance, they'll pick Ballance.

As someone has already said, England have Root to do the job as a 2nd spinner, so would we really need a third?

My guess is, Moeen is a better bowl than Root?

Alvaro · « **Reply #18 on:** October 21, 2013, 09:33:38 AM »

Much

Nickauger · « **Reply #19 on:** October 21, 2013, 09:35:56 AM »

Quote from: Manormanic on October 21, 2013, 08:59:42 AM

A first class average of 38, mostly playing in the second division, does not suggest that Moeen is quite top class - it certainly does not compare at all favourably with the numbers Bairstow, Ballance, Taylor etc have acheived, more often in division 1. When I've seen him bat, I've found him easy to watch but have always thought his game a little bit lightweight.

So I suppose the question is how much of a difference does his off spin make? Hard to tell the quality at this stage, because whilst he has picked up some good hauls these have been on very helpful wickets in division 2. Whilst Swann is playing, I'd say little - either of the B's has the attacking game England seem to require from their number six and Joe Root is perfectly efficient at getting through a few fill in overs. There may be more of a vacancy if and when Swann calls it a day and England are forced to look at whether they really have a Test class replacement available to them.

Incidentally, the stuff about Worcester respecting his faith made me cringe; pure proselytising.

To bring up the old adage of averages. What were Tresco's and Vaughan's? I do agree about the standard of bowling, although weren't Yorkshire in Div 2 recently? THat will skew some of the stats for Balance, Bairstow etc. You can, or should only be picked on your last performance, and as his last performances have been exceptional.... he deserves a shot, like the rest of them. There are however, a lot of players deserving of a shot! Your Yorkshire bias is cute though

WalkingWicket37 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 21, 2013, 09:50:02 AM »

Quote from: Alvaro on October 21, 2013, 09:22:10 AM

Are you kidding? One in five of his T20 boundaries is a 6...

T20 where the boundary is bought in by 30 yards...

Manormanic · « **Reply #21 on:** October 21, 2013, 09:52:18 AM »

Quote from: Nickauger on October 21, 2013, 09:35:56 AM

To bring up the old adage of averages. What were Tresco's and Vaughan's? I do agree about the standard of bowling, although weren't Yorkshire in Div 2 recently? THat will skew some of the stats for Balance, Bairstow etc. You can, or should only be picked on your last performance, and as his last performances have been exceptional.... he deserves a shot, like the rest of them. There are however, a lot of players deserving of a shot! Your Yorkshire bias is cute though

That is the oft quoted comparator whenever this issue is raised. However, times changed - and have changed massively since those two were added to the England set up. Firstly, when they were selected, they were being brought in to a failing team that had regurgitated the same old list of names for the better part of a decade - one which briefly sank to the bottom of the Test rankings, no less. They were also playing when the divisional divide was new, and when the standard of pitches was lower and of Overseas players was higher. I believe when Virgil was called into the squad to tour South Africa in 1999 that his average was 38, but that was also the second highest average of an English qualified batsman under 30 who had made more than a handful of First Class starts...

Yorkshire had one season in division 2, which hardly skews stats in the same way - though Ballance's three seasons in Zimbabwe do give his an extra sheen. Though there is no bias - I'm comparing Ali to the guys England's selectors have identified as his competitors (if I were being biased I'd point out that Adil Rashid had a better F/C season, in Division 1, and is a better bowler and fielder....)

TangoWhiskey · « **Reply #22 on:** October 21, 2013, 09:55:11 AM »

Quote from: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on October 21, 2013, 09:26:21 AM

If they want balance, they'll pick Ballance.

As someone has already said, England have Root to do the job as a 2nd spinner, so would we really need a third?

I like your play on words but Ballance doesn't bowl as far as I'm aware, so other than a few headlines he's not really relevant to a balance argument.

I would have thought Moeen would be a better spin option than Root and certainly a better bowling option than Trott.

mattw · « **Reply #23 on:** October 21, 2013, 10:19:59 AM »

As a worcs fan I have seen him develop over the years, he's always had the talent to play at the highest level and is a great player to watch. However he has always had a knack of giving his wicket away with a silly shot and this is why his batting average isn't that favorable - with his bowling really taking off last year I do think there is room for him in the T20/ODI squads, especially in the sub-continent but I think he's got a long way of eradicating these errors out of his game before he's considered as a possible test player.

Manormanic · « **Reply #24 on:** October 21, 2013, 10:32:30 AM »

Mattw makes a valid point that there might be a more suitable opening int eh ODI squads - would have thought he is a better overall bet than Fat Sammy as a second spinner who can bat.

Nickauger · « **Reply #25 on:** October 21, 2013, 01:22:41 PM »

Quote from: Manormanic on October 21, 2013, 09:52:18 AM

That is the oft quoted comparator whenever this issue is raised. However, times changed - and have changed massively since those two were added to the England set up. Firstly, when they were selected, they were being brought in to a failing team that had regurgitated the same old list of names for the better part of a decade - one which briefly sank to the bottom of the Test rankings, no less. They were also playing when the divisional divide was new, and when the standard of pitches was lower and of Overseas players was higher. I believe when Virgil was called into the squad to tour South Africa in 1999 that his average was 38, but that was also the second highest average of an English qualified batsman under 30 who had made more than a handful of First Class starts...

Yorkshire had one season in division 2, which hardly skews stats in the same way - though Ballance's three seasons in Zimbabwe do give his an extra sheen. Though there is no bias - I'm comparing Ali to the guys England's selectors have identified as his competitors (if I were being biased I'd point out that Adil Rashid had a better F/C season, in Division 1, and is a better bowler and fielder....)

I hate trying to have a reasoned argument with you. You've got an answer to everything and more often than not, its right on reflection!

I do agree, however, I also believe that Moeen has earnt the right to be spoken on in the same breath (if not above the others). Is he not better for being a star in a weak side, as opposed to a consistent performer in a side full of stars. Its like looking at a class no. 8 on the back of a scrum going backwards, always made to look like one of the best players on the pitch (think Sergio Parisse for example)

Gingerbusiness · « **Reply #26 on:** October 21, 2013, 01:40:02 PM »

In my view, and I am sure this will be shot out of the sky...

We already have too many players who can do a "bit of both". None of whom now really get anywhere near the test team.

I am all for Moeen being given a chance, in the ODI or T20 team, however who in the current test side would you honestly say he was better than, at that level?

I think you would struggle to make a genuine case of any of them.

In a Team which James Taylor cant force his way into, with an average of 65, I think Moeen will struggle to get in as a batsman...And in a team with 7 possible seam options, and 3 test worthy spin options... I just can't see how.

Though when you say International player, I am assuming you mean England?

RichW · « **Reply #27 on:** October 21, 2013, 01:43:26 PM »

As a Worcester fan I�ve seen lots of Mo this year and I can honestly say he has improved his batting hugely.

He is definitely talented enough to play for England but although he has tightened up his game a lot he still does give his wicket away far too often at domestic level.

I think Ballence deserves a shot for his weight of Div 1 Runs but I think Mo should be second it line. Batting 3 in a failing batting order at Worcester shouldn't be over looked compared to batting 5/6 in a well performing div 1 side. Some of the best bowlers in the country play in Div 2 Hogan, Richardson and Copeland all had outstanding seasons.

His bowling has also come on a great deal and he seems to have two modes of bowling one flat to keep the run rate down and one where he gives it a lot of air and spin to try and take wickets.

He is also a pretty decent slip fielder and generally a good outfielder.

Anyone who thinks he will struggle in one day/T20 big hitting cricket has clearly never seen him play this is not an area where he would struggle at all with a list a strike rate of 100 and T20 over 125. His 4 day strike rate also use to be higher before he rained in his game which has proved successful for his average.

Nickauger · « **Reply #28 on:** October 21, 2013, 01:48:14 PM »

I'm not sure what other country he could play for as an Englishman born to English parents, in the very English city of Birmingham. Or am I being too accusatory?

Manormanic · « **Reply #29 on:** October 21, 2013, 03:08:04 PM »

Quote from: Nickauger on October 21, 2013, 01:48:14 PM

I'm not sure what other country he could play for as an Englishman born to English parents, in the very English city of Birmingham. Or am I being too accusatory?

When England's team includes one J.Trott (a Yarpie born in Yarpieland to Yarpie parents, IIRC) and when English football is seriously trying to steal a Belgian born Kosovar Albanian with Serb, Croat and Turkish heritage...

Author Topic: Moeen Ali - Possible International Player? (Read 3869 times)

A-Swing-And-A-Miss

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wasted_talent

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wasted_talent

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Alvaro

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Nickauger

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WalkingWicket37

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Manormanic

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TangoWhiskey

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mattw

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Manormanic

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Nickauger

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Gingerbusiness

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RichW

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Nickauger

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Manormanic

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