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[Number4]

Evidence - as in, can you provide evidence to back up the banal statements made thus far?  Because I have seen precious little.

Lyon is a clubbie, and the sensitive reaction of Australian fans to having that fact pointed out to them shows that they know it too.  His record in Test cricket shows it - precious few top order wickets, poor performances when gifted spinning tracks that ought to have assisted him, consistently outbowled by opposing spinners...

I'd be checking some of the scalps Lyon has under his belt.


Evidence:

Trott
Pietersen
Bell
Sehwag
Tendulker
Laxman
Kohli
Amla
Smith
Kallis

You could also add Chanderpaul and Alviro Petersen to the list if you like.

Ok Dave... And Pujara

[Over Gully]

Completely disrespectful to call Lyon a club player. He's no Murali, but he is a very good off-spinner with a decent record, averages low 30s which is perfectly adequate for a finger spinner who doesn't throw it, and who took 19 wickets for the series at a tick under 30. I don't know which Einstein came up with the theory that his bowling today, 2/70 off 9, was evidence of this. Yeah he copped some tap, but it was all in "junk time", a bit of slap and giggle before the inevitable.

[Giraffe208]

I rate Lyon as a spinner. Has a strong repeatable action. Gets good action on the ball producing drift and turn. He may not always have luck on his side but as Australia grow and continue to perform well chances are his performances will rise aswell. We can't judge his figures today as an accurate reflection of his ability to bowl.

[ProCricketer1982]

Lyon has improved vastly since entering the test food. He's no great spinner and against a batting line up with form and confidence he'd be minced. However, he's been very good for the Aussies in defensive bowling. England have gifted him rabbit wickets this series though but for me smith still looks more clubby than Lyon. Still, he out bowled the great swann (without the gobbing off!) and smith has out batted... Umm well the England top 6 together probably!!

[compstallcc]

An overall embarrasing tour for england and great news for aussies going forward. However both teams are going to have to rebuild. Rogers, Harris, Haddin, Mitch and to an extent Clarke if his back problems continue dont have a long time left at all. And unfortunetly for australia that is the core of their team. England have serious issuies though and i think they lie in the camp, maybe a new coach would help. I also think i new captain would but imho we cant because we havent got a  replacement that will do a better job. As for the debuts for this test they havent  done anything to impress although i do like ballence and it think he has something about him. I have suggested this team before the last test

A.Cook (C)
J.Root
J.Trott (presuming he feels that he is fine to be playing test cricket again)
KP
I.Bell (VC)
S.Davies (WK)
B.Stokes
C.Woakes
S.Broad
J.Anderson (replaced when time is right)
S.Kerrigan

and i still think that would be a good team if we stuck with it for a year or so. However the more i think about it the more i doubt trotts return to cricket so i would suggest ballence coming in and going down to 5 and bell at 3. Im afraid i dont rate rankin or borthwick at all i much prefer finn and kerrigan.

Fair play to the aussies they have deserved this whitewash no doubt about it, theyve out bowled out batted  and out feilded us for every ball of the game and as im sure us poms celebrated when we won the ashes i have no problem them celebrating in the same fashion . We will be back though

p.s can we please stop calling lyon a clubbie as although he is no shane warne i would  rather have had him than any english bowler on this tour

[ProCricketer1982]

Watching it off record. KP just out. These guys are embarrassing! No effort at all.

Might have to revise him as the one to remain post series. Cook too. Bells was sloppy as well.

Carbs gray-Nicolls bat breaking was amusing!

[procricket]

Evidence - as in, can you provide evidence to back up the banal statements made thus far?  Because I have seen precious little.

Lyon is a clubbie, and the sensitive reaction of Australian fans to having that fact pointed out to them shows that they know it too.  His record in Test cricket shows it - precious few top order wickets, poor performances when gifted spinning tracks that ought to have assisted him, consistently outbowled by opposing spinners...

Very harsh although to be fair the Comp he plays as a clubbie his club side would take on and beat some county sides.

Have you ever played against a city first grade side.

I have there better than our county 2nd elevens by a long way.

[Jason_Yuan]

humiliation for England.... Didnt rate Lyon as high before but now he proved that he is a world class spinner...

[Manormanic]

I rate Lyon as a spinner. Has a strong repeatable action.

What?  The one he lost so badly in the second test that Warne was ripping him to shreds for it on commentary?

[procricket]

England need to look at the club system in Australia.

Problem for counties like Lancashire and Yorkshire there not enough feeder systems leagues are spread and no coordination.

If you have not made it by the time your 24 in England your finished.

In Australia if you have a good season top city grade you will get a chance..

[Manormanic]

Very harsh although to be fair the Comp he plays as a clubbie his club side would take on and beat some county sides.

Have you ever played against a city first grade side.

I have there better than our county 2nd elevens by a long way.

I have, and whilst some are very good, they are not quite county standard, though if you would be more comfortable with me calling Lyon a county 2s bowler then I'll compromise there!   

[ProCricketer1982]

England need to look at the club system in Australia.

Problem for counties like Lancashire and Yorkshire there not enough feeder systems leagues are spread and no coordination.

If you have not made it by the time your 24 in England your finished.

In Australia if you have a good season top city grade you will get a chance..

 I can't comment on the Aussie leagues until next year but I do think our system here is flawed. Not entirely sure how you can fix it but I'd start by not just concentrating on a few clubs and having kids used as cash cows

The ECB gave money to a newly built school, towards their indoor hall ( guessing there is a reason for it??).. It's shockingly crap. The bounce is tennis ball and it's horrible. Why are they wasting money on multi sport halls and school ones at that. Would be much better to build purpose built indoor cricket centres and then run all the different indoor stuff there and courses etc

So if I use glos as the example, I'd have special indoor centres in cheltenham, gloucster, Tewkesbury, stroud and Bristol. That way you cover the county and so the clubs have a high class facility to use (rent lanes out to them for pre season etc but for respectable prices not rip off!!)

The boards could put investments into clubs training nets, wickets etc to raise the standards of wickets ( everyone enjoys playing on better looking and playing grounds!) and help clubs to become integral parts of their area rather than just clubs.  I'd rather they did that then keep paying all these 'coaches' they seem to pay a fortune for. Oh, and stop giving grants to the big clubs who have enough money themselves!

[procricket]

I have, and whilst some are very good, they are not quite county standard, though if you would be more comfortable with me calling Lyon a county 2s bowler then I'll compromise there!   

Who have you played for in Aussie mate???.

Basically first grade city comp is basically professional mate.

 

[Manormanic]

England need to look at the club system in Australia.

Problem for counties like Lancashire and Yorkshire there not enough feeder systems leagues are spread and no coordination.

If you have not made it by the time your 24 in England your finished.

In Australia if you have a good season top city grade you will get a chance..

I do rather tend to agree on this point; English club cricket, whilst often of a very good standard, can be too parochial and there are too many situation in which clubs are sustained by two or three quality all rounders who do the bulk of everything, rather than a situation where the best congregate together and play the best week in week out.  The Premier League structure was supposed to resolve this but there were problems from the start getting sides to sign up, which have become worse with a couple of the leagues dissembling recently.

[Manormanic]

Who have you played for in Aussie mate???.

Basically first grade city comp is basically professional mate.

Didn't say I'd played for them, said I'd played against them!