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[joeljonno]

If England's pomp of Vaughan's Ashes win, there spinner was Ashley Giles who wasn't a great spin bowler, didn't turn it miles but was fairly consistent and set good fields.

I am sure Borthwick could easily be as good, given time, and will be a better batsman.

Saying that, whether it is Borthwick, Kerrigan, Rashid or any other spinner, settling in the aide is a long slow process and cannot be rushed.

[WalkingWicket37]

If England's pomp of Vaughan's Ashes win, there spinner was Ashley Giles who wasn't a great spin bowler, didn't turn it miles but was fairly consistent and set good fields.

I am sure Borthwick could easily be as good, given time, and will be a better batsman.

Saying that, whether it is Borthwick, Kerrigan, Rashid or any other spinner, settling in the aide is a long slow process and cannot be rushed.

But The King of Spain had the control to hold up an end.

This control will come with time but I don't think any of the current crop can do that currently. That's the gap Swanny's retirement has left (and the fact he took wickets at key times).

[DanBess13]

Definitely in some trouble in the spin department

[joeljonno]

Definitely in some trouble in the spin department

Nah, no trouble. Just needs time.

Look at Tahir in South Africa, nowt too flash, but does ok in a strong bowling line up.

Look at Lyon. Wasn't holding down the first choice spinners role on tour to India, yet now look a world-beater.

Neither are going to hit records like Warne and Muralitharan, but both do a job for their countries.

[DanBess13]

Nah Tahir is really bad can only bowl well when there's alot of spin that's why he bowled well over in Pakistan but in the series against India in South Africa he bowled really poorly and I would choose Robin Peterson all the time infront of Tahir

[Manormanic]

Obviously, I mean Rashid took a full one more wicket (but went for 200 more runs) and Borthwick scored 200 more runs in the CCD1 batting and bowling on that green seamer that is the riverside, not to mention how many catches he takes at 2nd slip. But obviously Rashids better!

You've quoted first class stats rather than Championship, and Borthwick had the advantage of UCCE games etc to boost his.  Aside from which, did you not notice that Rashid average a full 12 runs more per innings, and that he was making runs in the role that either man would bat for England?  Or that his career bowling record is far better in terms f wickets taken and match hauls?  Or that he has a record of performing in pressure situations?

[Manormanic]

But The King of Spain had the control to hold up an end.

More pertinently he had four genuinely world class quick bowlers rotating around him, so was only ever required to perform a limited role.

Aside from any other debate, English spin resources post Swann are almost as bad as Australia's since Warne (and I still maintain that Lyon is just a club bowler).  In first class cricket last year, no division one spinner took wickets in significant volume or speed - indeed, Ollie Rayner, who would admit himself that he is some way short of Test class, was probably the most successful spinner in the top tier!

[billyb]

As a leggie myself, I was really pleased to see an leggie in the England team, first of all...

However his consistency was pretty grim. He bowled one or two REALLY bad deliveries every over, from waist high full tosses to short and wide garbage. It is how ever, his first test, and he was bowling against Haddin etc who will put you off line and length. When he got it right, he showed he could beat the bat, so he has potential. I'm hoping that his batting comes into the fore too. Congratulations on getting a test wicket though, not a bad achievement.
Play up Scotty. Loving the encouragement from Bairstow behind the stumps, he adds so much energy when he is excited, unlike Prior.

[DanBess13]

Yeah he does need some time to get used to this kind of cricket facing the best batsman in the word and i'm sure he'll do well for England not that often England have a Leggie so it will be interesting

[123*]

You've quoted first class stats rather than Championship, and Borthwick had the advantage of UCCE games etc to boost his.  Aside from which, did you not notice that Rashid average a full 12 runs more per innings, and that he was making runs in the role that either man would bat for England?  Or that his career bowling record is far better in terms f wickets taken and match hauls?  Or that he has a record of performing in pressure situations?

No mate, no UCCE games included, all county championship as the link shows

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=7905;type=tournament

I'm sure Scott would have had a lot higher average batting where Rashid did due to the number of red inkers, Rashid, is this the same lad that got dropped to the 2s last year in favour of Rafiq because his bowling was so bad. If Scott can score runs at number 3 I'm sure he can score runs at 8 (where he batted for most of his career).

[123*]

Borthwick averages 31 with the ball, Rashid averages 35, with Rashid bowling on a more spinner friendly wicket. Borthwicks economy rate is 3.7 Rashids is 3.55 hardly that much better? Those are career stats in FC cricket by the way, also some of those stats from Rashid will be from division 2 against teams such as Leicestershire. Don't understand how you can say Rashid is a better cricketer?

[ProCricketer1982]

Is borthwick mates with smith? He'll of a lot of half trackers and full tosses!!

Keep the faith with the young lad, it'll take him a while to develop and mentally feel like he belongs

[Gerry SA]

More pertinently he had four genuinely world class quick bowlers rotating around him, so was only ever required to perform a limited role.

Aside from any other debate, English spin resources post Swann are almost as bad as Australia's since Warne (and I still maintain that Lyon is just a club bowler).  In first class cricket last year, no division one spinner took wickets in significant volume or speed - indeed, Ollie Rayner, who would admit himself that he is some way short of Test class, was probably the most successful spinner in the top tier!

England didn't have 4 'world class' fast bowlers.

Hoggard was a hard trier. Nothing more.

Harmison had a purple patch from 2004-05. Mostly average in the test of his career.

Jones was world class. Shame injuries destroyed his career.

Flintoff wasn't ever world class. A couple of decent series in his whine career.

[ProCricketer1982]

England didn't have 4 'world class' fast bowlers.

Hoggard was a hard trier. Nothing more.

Harmison had a purple patch from 2004-05. Mostly average in the test of his career.

Jones was world class. Shame injuries destroyed his career.

Flintoff wasn't ever world class. A couple of decent series in his whine career.

Jones and Flintoff 2004 onwards were worldclass (Flintoff has less spells of it due to injury after 2005)

Hoggy was never near world class
Harry as Gerry said had a spell where he was but even by 2005 was a fading force

[Gerry SA]

From what I saw of Borthwick, I'd say he's the most ordinary leg spinner I've seen since Piyush Chawla got an India Test cap.

His bowling is worst than Chawla's.

He's up the with Tahir with the charity full tosses.