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[alba caerulea]

Having derided Lyon as a clubbie, I think it would be hypocritical of me not to point out that Tredwell, for all his probably qualities as a person, is far worse.  Yes, he has done an okay job is some one dayers - though the way the Australian climbed into him at the end of the English SUmmer evidenced that his luck in that regard was in the process of running out - but then, Xavier Doherty looks okay bowling darts for Australia in that format and look what happened to him in Test cricket.  But look at Tredwell's first class stats for the last two/three years - he has hardly taken a wicket since picking up seven at Headingley on the last day of the 2011 season, and was leaking four plus an over last year in division two.

You can't still be banging that drum about Lyon, he has bowled excellently all series and is pretty young for a spinner with plenty of scope for improvement. Also flayed a few runs down the order, unlike our pair of 'all-rounders' Broad and Bresnan.

Borthwick, or whichever spinner England go for, would ideally want a decent crack at it. He might need to move County as Jos Butler has done, to help his claim. The home summer might provide a decent introduction into test cricket. On english pitches, with Stokes at 6, the spinners overs might not be huge and Cook (providing he is not sacked and replaced by RHB or Brian Close) might be able to manipulate the time he bowls for his benefit

The bad news is that we are playing traditionally the best two spin-playing nations in world cricket

Wrist spin is a wonderful weapon to have, I hope it works out for him

Vic the bowlers you mention might possibly be classed as servicable individuals but together in a team, with Jones aswell, the were a world-class bowling unit. To win against the 2005 Australian team was a magnificent effort. The Australian unit this year has been superb, yet no one would have said before this series that Harris and Siddle were World-class individuals. Johnson we know was on his day

[Gerry SA]

You can't still be banging that drum about Lyon, he has bowled excellently all series and is pretty young for a spinner with plenty of scope for improvement. Also flayed a few runs down the order, unlike our pair of 'all-rounders' Broad and Bresnan.

Borthwick, or whichever spinner England go for, would ideally want a decent crack at it. He might need to move County as Jos Butler has done, to help his claim. The home summer might provide a decent introduction into test cricket. On english pitches, with Stokes at 6, the spinners overs might not be huge and Cook (providing he is not sacked and replaced by RHB or Brian Close) might be able to manipulate the time he bowls for his benefit

The bad news is that we are playing traditionally the best two spin-playing nations in world cricket

Wrist spin is a wonderful weapon to have, I hope it works out for him

Vic the bowlers you mention might possibly be classed as servicable individuals but together in a team, with Jones aswell, the were a world-class bowling unit. To win against the 2005 Australian team was a magnificent effort. The Australian unit this year has been superb, yet no one would have said before this series that Harris and Siddle were World-class individuals. Johnson we know was on his day

Ryan Harris averaged 22 with the ball coming into this series. He was already world class.

[awp]

Johnson was already in that category, 2009 international cricketer of the year. Have a look on youtube at the devistating spells he's delivered over a long time.  Check his career record while youre at it alba.  We all know he got injured and then lost form for 12-18 months, the difference between johnson snd others is that johnson worked, trained and endured...... not pull the pin becuase it all got too hard....

[alba caerulea]

As I said in my original post - on his day. Johnson has contributed as much to two Ashes defeats for Australia as he has to them winning it this time

Harris - not sure you can call a guy who couldnt play consecutive tests due to fitness issues world class. He did bowl well in the home series however and in this series he has been brilliant no doubt. Will he be remembered in time as a great with Lindwall, Lillee and McGrath? No he wont

[The_Bird]

In the same way Shane Bond won't be talked about being a great despite averaging 22 in tests and 20 in ODI's.

[alba caerulea]

Shame really,  fantastic bowler

[DanBess13]

Yeah felt sorry for Shane Bond he was such a fantastic bowler in Tests and ODI unfortunately injury set him way back in his career

[Vic Nicholas]

Yeah felt sorry for Shane Bond he was such a fantastic bowler in Tests and ODI unfortunately injury set him way back in his career

Indian T20 money was more important to him.

Every time NZ needed him, he always had some injury niggle that prevented him playing.

A great bowler, yes, world class it is correct to say with the heart the size of a pea.

[Vic Nicholas]

As I said in my original post - on his day. Johnson has contributed as much to two Ashes defeats for Australia as he has to them winning it this time

Harris - not sure you can call a guy who couldnt play consecutive tests due to fitness issues world class. He did bowl well in the home series however and in this series he has been brilliant no doubt. Will he be remembered in time as a great with Lindwall, Lillee and McGrath? No he wont

Let's knock this on the head once and for all.

James Anderson vs Australia:

season 2006/07  3 6 93.2 18 413 5 3/98 3/110 82.60
season 2009  5 8 158.0 38 542 12 5/80 6/127 45.16
season 2010/11  5 10 213.1 50 625 24 4/44 7/127 26.04
season 2013  5 10 205.4 43 651 22 5/73 10/158 29.59
season 2013/14  5 10 190.3 43 615 14 4/67 4/93 43.92

Overall Record vs Australia:
2006-2014 23 44 860.4 192 2846 77 5/73 10/158 36.96 


Mitchell Johnson vs England

season 2009  5 9 162.1 15 651 20 5/69 6/99 32.55
season 2010/11  4 6 136.3 22 554 15 6/38 9/82 36.93 
season 2013/14  5 10 188.4 51 517 37 7/40 9/103 13.97 

Overall record vs England
filtered 2009-2014 14 25 487.2 88 1722 72 7/40 9/82 23.91

In this instance, the stats do not lie.

MJ's record is superior to Anderson's and by a long way. Their overall averages against all nations are closer ...a difference of about 2 runs per wicket, but Johnson (nor any other Australian player aside from M. Clarke) has ever played against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe like the English lads have. So the gap would be even wider if all things were equal.

As for Harris, he has taken wickets against everyone, everywhere at an average and strike rate that puts him up there with the best. To suggest he is not world class is seriously delusional.

[Manormanic]

but Johnson (nor any other Australian player aside from M. Clarke) has ever played against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe like the English lads have. So the gap would be even wider if all things were equal.

Anderson has played four tests against said opposition, which is hardly a statistical variant!  But why let facts bother you, eh? 

[alba caerulea]

Would Harris get in a world XI Vic? I dont think he would, even now hes in great form. Maybe our definition of world class is just different here

How old is Harris? Where has he been for previous years when Australia have been opening the bowling with Bollinger and Hilfenhaus?

Who is to say that Harris isnt just having a good 2 or 3 years as you have suggested Flintoff had for England? Flintoff simply played international cricket sooner whilst Harris was crocked watching Australia lose. Just biding his time perhaps

[smokem]

Would Harris get in a world XI Vic? I dont think he would, even now hes in great form. Maybe our definition of world class is just different here

How old is Harris? Where has he been for previous years when Australia have been opening the bowling with Bollinger and Hilfenhaus?

Who is to say that Harris isnt just having a good 2 or 3 years as you have suggested Flintoff had for England? Flintoff simply played international cricket sooner whilst Harris was crocked watching Australia lose. Just biding his time perhaps

To be fair, form has never been a problem for Harris ever since he broke into the test side... Injuries have always plagued him, hence a stop-start test career.

[alba caerulea]

Hes 34 and hes played 20 test matches, dont know how many years thats spread over but he has very similar stats to Shane Bond who Vic describes as having a pea heart

[Manormanic]

Hes 34 and hes played 20 test matches, dont know how many years thats spread over but he has very similar stats to Shane Bond who Vic describes as having a pea heart

In fairness he was a late bloomer and only made his debut 30/31.

[Manormanic]

Would Harris get in a world XI Vic? I dont think he would, even now hes in great form. Maybe our definition of world class is just different here

How old is Harris? Where has he been for previous years when Australia have been opening the bowling with Bollinger and Hilfenhaus?

Who is to say that Harris isnt just having a good 2 or 3 years as you have suggested Flintoff had for England? Flintoff simply played international cricket sooner whilst Harris was crocked watching Australia lose. Just biding his time perhaps

I suspect Vic has different definitions depending on the point he is trying to make!

As I see it, world class should be applied the same way it is in boxing - ie to someone who is capable of more than holding their own against the very best.  You can be world class (as Flintoff was) but not go on to be considered an all time great (he wasn't) and I suspect HArris falls into that category - he is someone who no batsman of any era would really feel comfortable against, but is unlikely to do enough to be remembered as more than someone who held their own.