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Author Topic: Do England kill spinners?  (Read 6683 times)

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FattusCattus

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2014, 08:18:46 PM »

There has to be something in this.

When is the last time you saw a mystery spinner of English birth? A finger spinner who can maybe turn one the other way?

And whilst we are on the subject, how much play and success do any English leggings have - and with a leggie as our main spin coach, why are, none of them developing? Does he spend any time with them at all?

borthwick
rashid
beer
Fellow at Somerset

And there are others.

Surely, when even NZ have managed to get a leggie into their Team, Borthwick apart, we are nowhere near.

UK obsessed with bouncy seam bowlers, or no one knows how to coach spin in this country?
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jwebber86

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2014, 08:28:55 PM »

looked at what happened to maurice holmes in the article.
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roco

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2014, 08:30:46 PM »

But if I were to start up a coaching school.. The first thing people would say is 'your not qualified'... Even though everyone knows they mean nothing etc.. Just seems weird

Don't think it would matter too much for a coaching school but for a club it matters as if your accredited you need to have so many ecb qualified coaches
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csnew

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2014, 09:33:46 PM »


I find the bit regarding moen Ali having a doosra but is "afraid" to use it, slightly shocking.


Ali could be hiding his doosra for the WC so that there is no footage of it? Just a thought anyway

SA did the same last 50 over WC hiding Tahir till the imp games.
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WalkingWicket37

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2014, 09:39:14 PM »

From the course I done (ECB Level 2) there was very little technical information provided, if I knew nothing about cricket beforehand theres no way I'd be able to go out and show someone how to play a pull shot or pick up their technical issues. It was more how to coach, i.e. questioning rather than dictating, which any respectable coach should already be doing! So I agree there's very little point to them, essentially just a box ticking exercise. Can't imagine how bad the Level 1 must be!
When I did mine it was basically putting cones down for a drill, then being able to tell how long 5 minutes was.
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Batoff

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2014, 10:23:51 PM »

Some coaches need to learn not to say anything
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Vitas Cricket

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2014, 12:44:58 AM »

It is the culture of our country, not just this sport. It is very slowly starting to turnaround in football but the current emphasis even as low down as 7 and 8 year olds is to get a result, some of the better coaches/clubs place some emphasis on teamwork etc but it is mostly result driven. I have reffed the occasional u11 match and received dogs abuse because I walked a nervous 10 year old through how to take a throw in properly instead of giving a foul throw. I also had an irate manager in my face because I asked him to substitute his star striker so that I didn't have to send the lad off. I understand there comes a point where results become important. I really wanted to win every game I played when I was that young. Looking back do I think I would have been a better player if the European model I'll outline below was employed? Probably not because I was a goalkeeper and that's quite a specialist discipline. But I grew up with some outrageously talented lads, none of whom have made it, and few of whom still play the game.

Occasionally you'll read some ridiculous move against this all out result culture which goes way too far the other way. I read about an under 11 league where results were not allowed to be published anywhere to spare any potential embarrassments for teams who were getting spanked.

Compare this to much of Europe where the only emphasis is keep the ball, learn to be comfortable in Possession, and to encourage the attackers especially to express themselves, not being afraid to make a mistake is a big part of the ethos. Just watched the video of the barcelona academy on the BBC website, and they are like no team of 9 year olds I've ever seen. I know they are the cream of the crop but I have coached/watched young lads at various levels all the way up to elite. I've also witnessed European teams without the stature of barcelona come over and pass the ball around our boys like they were statues. It's not until they get a bit older and physicality comes into it more do the English lads start to scramble back a foothold: u15 upwards.

cricket seems unwilling to take a risk on a maverick talent who doesn't necessarily fit the model, football is the same, to my despair. One of the most gifted players I have witnessed has had what I would call a half career because of it. He was always played away from his natural position for England to fit a balanced team shape, rather than being given license to go and win the game on his own. His spent most of his time on the bench at the only big club he has played for, admittedly under a foreign manager, but one who plays quite a defensive English style. Joe Cole had the ability and the mentality to be one of the best ever, I believe the culture of sport in our country to take the safer option was a major factor in his stifled career.

I don't think the problem is unique to cricket. I've been on coaching courses for football, cricket, I vaguely remember one for tennis and one for rugby when I was younger. They are all the same. Bit of health and safety, reminded not to touch the kids, some very basic coaching drills, reminded to ask the kids if they know what they did wrong rather than tell them outright, and bang there's your certificate.
Level 1 cricket course in our area is 3 days between 9am and 4pm. Probably a day and a half of that is in the sports hall actually doing coaching related activity. The rest is classroom. You then have to get a first aid certificate (3 hour evening course) which is understandable. Then there is a separate 3-4 hour evening course dedicated to further reminders about safeguarding children. I'm not trying to belittle the importance of keeping kids safe from abusers by the way, merely lay out just how many non coaching related extras there are.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 12:48:12 AM by Vitas Cricket »
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Vitas Cricket

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2014, 01:24:58 AM »

My previous point was more about maverick players who can turn a game (like many of the best spinners are) and the play it safe, regimented nature of sport in our country in general.

Going back,to the OP and the talk about stifling spinners. The traditional English pitch does not lend itself to spin at all, save for when it crumbles up in July and August if were are lucky to see a good summer. As such most spinners are seen as a luxury, wheeled out for 2 moths of the year. If they want to play regularly they have to be able to bat. That's why many of the half decent spinners who are doing the rounds are just exceptional batsmen who have a bit of ability with the ball. Root, Ali, Borthwick etc. A specialist spinner who can't hold a bat for toffee like say a Murali will struggle to make an impact not just because of the culture that doesn't want to take a risk on someone different/unique/special, but also as a result of this regimented insistence from the English system that means you must be decent in all disciplines. The only exception seems to be monty bless him.

Going back to the point about pitches, I believe someone mentioned it before that many 'spinners' are just being used as slow bowlers, usually in the short formats. They are darting it down, and using changes in pace to get players out, many are even used just to close up an end. The pitch has an influence here, it is encouraging to see players/teams/coaches adapt and try to find a solution to a green wicket that won't take turn. But this won't prepare any English spinner for international cricket.

My belief is the only hope for any young English spinner who isn't just another root or Moeen Ali (ie a batsman who can lob a few useful overs down) is to take themselves overseas and start to show what they can do in the sorts of conditions an England international will be asked to perform in.

Manormanic

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2014, 07:25:11 AM »

And whilst we are on the subject, how much play and success do any English leggings have - and with a leggie as our main spin coach, why are, none of them developing? Does he spend any time with them at all?

orse still is the number of perfectly serviceable county bowlers who go away with England Lions and come back with actions wrecked!
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Leddster138

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2014, 11:39:26 AM »

i think it is the whole english cricket setup. at somerset over the last few years they have had a number of decent young spinners (micheal munday, max waller, george dockerell) but haven't been given the time or support to actual develop their game, especially in the most important sense of actually bowling lots of overs in 4 day cricket. max waller is doing well in the t20 but more as a slow bowler then a spin bowler.

Micheal Munday is now cleaning up in the Sussex Premier league for Horsham. He gives it a lot of loop but obviously has something about him as it's a decent league to get 50+ wickets a season in
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fros23

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2014, 11:47:50 AM »

When talking to the 1st team guys down at Brighton and Hove they all said that when playing against Horsham, Munday was a far more dangerous bowler than Beer yet it is Beer that is still playing pro cricket.
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Leddster138

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2014, 12:10:59 PM »

English cricket doesn't understand spin and doesn't have competent bowling coaches to recognise results over looks. My brother played a few trial games for South of England at Under 17 and, due to having hyperflexabilty in his joints, could bowl a doosra at a decent pace. The coaches there told him his was holding the ball wrong (he uses the first two fingers to spin the ball rather than just his index finger) and told him he must change it to get "more control". This turned him not only into a worse bowler but one who lost his toppy (occasional doosra). Now these were elite coaches bringing through the next generation of talent! He went back to Sussex to be told that he needed to change his grip and action (feedback from the trial). Slowly it was then decided the bulk of his overs could be bowled by the opening batter (beautiful roller of the ball).  At which point he got completely disillusioned with the whole set up and gave up on the idea of doing anything with his cricket and decided to play a few leagues below and try and enjoy his cricket a bit more.

Now there may be many reasons why he didn't make it but I always felt it boiled down to the coaches not fundamentally understanding spin bowling and not looking beyond an ECB coaching manual. If they had looked beyond his grip they would have seen some impressive stats. The bulk of 2nd team and UCCE coaches I've seen all seem to have been journeyman cricketers in the past so I wouldn't really expect much for the future.
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Leddster138

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Re: Do England kill spinners?
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2014, 12:11:42 PM »

When talking to the 1st team guys down at Brighton and Hove they all said that when playing against Horsham, Munday was a far more dangerous bowler than Beer yet it is Beer that is still playing pro cricket.

Beer can bat therefore must be a better player :)
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